Postwar tenders

I have a spare  2046w whistle in like knew condition..          if interested, my email is in my profile...

 

Marty

Lots of places where things can go wrong. You have to provide more info. Does the relay react to the whistle button? Did you close the contacts on the relay manually to send current to the motor? Check the two wires from the field coil to see if they are broke or not connected. Does the motor hum - buzz show any signs of life?

On the tender that works - warm brushes are normal if you blew the whistle a lot in a short period of time.

I think the relay is shot or in need of a good cleaning. I've been manually making the contact. It don't want to work from the peer pack button. When I make the contact, the motor hums as if it wants to work but something isn't letting the armature move

Did you clean the commutator and brush wells? Copper color is normal on older brushes. Not a bad idea, though, to replace brushes and springs on newly acquired old tenders. Also, make sure you don't have any cracks in the commutator faces (sometimes hard to see, but identified by heavier concentrations of carbon.

 

Roger

I did clean the commutator with contact cleaner but I did not do the brush wells, or plate

Also on the 6466 I need the screws that hold the whistle against the motor/impeller. Where can I find these?

Check this diagram to figure out which version you have and you can get the screws for either from Jeff at ttender.com     

 

http://pictures.olsenstoy.com/...hi-tend/loc-te10.pdf

 

-Roger

 

 

UPDATE. I cleaned the brush wells,  and brush plate with contact cleaner. Tried the whistle again, and got the same thing. No armature movement, just the hum. Then something started smoking. Is it reasonable to say the motor is shot? I also think something might be wrong with the field. I'll post a picture of it later if that is allowed

What can be used to clean commutator slots? Also I'd like to get the brushe wells better. A q-tip didn't cut it what does everyone use?

You can clean the armature slots with a tooth pick. Get an ohmeter and check the commutator for shorts. Chek each piece to the others, then check each to the armature shaft. The segments may check around one ohm, there should be no connection to the shaft. Does one brush cap have the copper wire attached to the armature field case??

Rob

I find that QTips will not fit into the brush wells of whistle motors.
I fold a pipe cleaner in half, and use the doubled up pipe cleaner.

AVR,

The slots get cleaned with a toothpick and mentioned above. Commutator faces with green Scotch Brite pads and contact cleaner. For the brush wells, I pull of some of the cotton on a Q-tip and then it fits in the slot.

 

Roger

Will a volt meter or multimeter work too? And yes the field wire is connected

You can use any meter that has ohms on it.I assume you are testing in on track? If so are the wheels clean enough?

Rob

10 to 1 your impeller has moved down the shaft and when the brush plate is assembled onto the motor its pressing the impeller down into the whistle chamber and binding it against the bottom. Remove the motor studs and motor and ensure that the impeller is pressed onto the shaft properly.

 

Tin

I'll look into it, but when the brush plate is off, it spins freely. I can also get it to move when the plate is on by hand. It just doesn't move when power is applied

took a multimeter to the armature. Everything came in at around 1-1/2 ohms. Assuming if the was a short it would've read 0. Is this correct? The shaft read nothing. Also I've posted pictures

Before you fix the motor, blow into the housing to be sure both tones sound. If not, some of these whistles are very difficult to open up to clean out foreign matter that might be preventing proper sound with both tones. Something to consider.

One of the first things I did after it was initially tested

I looked at the impeller it is flush with motor. Mounted it back on to the frame, and mounted the brush plate. I was able to turn the impeller with everything attached. I cleaned the commutator slots again. Checked with multimeter. (See my previous reply). Retested everything and the motor still just hums. Keep in mind I am manually activating the relay. The contact rollers could be cleaner. But I am not sure if that has anything to do with it. I'm at a loss, I've never had this problem. Before.

Why do you have a black wire attached to the same brush terminal as the field wire?

That is not how whistle motors are normally wired.

 

There are a couple of variations on how Lionel wired their whistle motors, depending on the model.

 

Hot wire to Brush terminal A

Field wire 1 to Brush termnial B

Field wire 2 to relay- terminal closest to coils (connects to relay contact)

Second Hot wire from Brush terminal A to relay - terminal away from coil (connects to coil)

 

You've pretty much narrowed it down to a wiring problem. It really does sound like the field and armature are wired in parallel instead of in series. Have you checked the continuity and resistance of both the armature and field?

If both of those black wires are hot, then the armature is getting nothing, and the field is getting the full track voltage.
Smoke was mentioned earlier.

But the field does not look bad in the photo.

It's probably still OK.

I just looked at the photos for the first time. There are too many connections to the brush solder tabs.

 

Here is a pictorial wiring diagram:

 

i didn't wire it. The tender was purchased from an estate sale, and I loaned my Greenberg repair book to a buddy of mine so I didn't have the diagram to look at. Thanks for the attachment

Also only resistance in the armature was tested

Made a decision. The field wire going to the terminal is missing. I'm gonna just replace the whistle. Then hopefully get this one repaired as a spare. I'm not sure I'll be able the fix myself. I'd like to learn it but.

AVR,

Post a picture showing the entire unit in one frame so the guys trying to help can see the wires and tell you exactly what to do.

 

Using ADCX Rob's diagram (thanks), you can check the functionality of the whistle, by itself, to prove the whistle does in fact function.  It will require unsoldering ALL the wires from the relay, and pickup assembly, so that only the wires from the field is connected through the windings of that coil.  If you look at Rob's attached diagram, you can follow the wire that CAME from the relay, through the winding, and then to one brush holder.  Connect one xfmer lead to that side.  Take another lead from the xfmer and attach it to the opposite brush holder solder tab.  Turn up the power on the xfmer, and the whistle should operate.  That will prove the whistle is good, and that you have a Definite Wiring problem.  I am attaching a shot of where to hook up the test leads.  I did the best I could with the diagram, haven't used "Paint" very often.

 

Testing the whistle this way, eliminates the additional wires from the pick up rollers, and relay, and tests just the whistle itself.

 

 

 

quote:

The field wire going to the terminal is missing.

 

I assume you mean the wire running to the relay, because the wire to the brushplate is there.

Look carefully at the field windings. If the wire running to the brushplate is from the center of the windings (by the metal field), then that means the missing wire in broken off of the outer windings of the field. You can find the end, and unwind a turn or two. It won't hurt the motor.

Otherwise, the broken off wire came from the inside (center) of the field coil. Sometimes there is enough left sticking out to splice another piece of wire onto the end.

If not, the only thing that can be done would be to rewind the field.
In my experience, whistle motors / whole whistles are cheap enough to not bother.

 

As an aside, I always unsolder field wires from the brushplate before removing it out of concern over having the field wire break. Same would go for removing the whistle relay. Yes, the wire will flex, but only so much and so many times before it will break.

 

 

AVR conductor,  I'm curious if you had a chance to test just the whistle, and not the wiring attached.  It's really a simple test, to at least check the function of the whistle itself.  How about an update?

Sorry guys I was on vacation.  Just got back. I haven't tested the whistle by itself I'm not sure how to do it. Also what gauge wire is it that goes from the relay to the motor?

Bypass the relay and get the motor running correctly 1st. 22 gauge is fine.

Yeah, find out if the bearings squeal before doing more.

I am waiting to read whether he has both ends of the field winding wire. I have the impression that one end is broken off.

I'm waiting to read something...anything!

 

Hi guys as far as I can tell the field wire going to the terminal, not the brush connection is missing. It is the wire from the inside of coil. I have not been able to test anything and probably won't be able to until the weekend

With the field wire coming from the center of the coil broken off, there is almost nothing you can do unless there is enough sticking out to splice on another wire.
You could rewind the field coil, but IMHO, its not worth the effort. whistle motors aren't too expensive.