STM2 and DZ1000 compatability?

cjack posted:

I can't find any DZ1000-DZ1008 schematic that is complete. Just one for the 2500 and some words about the DZ1000. Juse need to see how the relay is switched and by what from the DZ1000. Wonder if someone could draw one for us, or maybe you draw what you have.

Chuck,

I have no problem drawing what I have, but I am using the DZ-2500. I will try to do this tomorrow after work.

Oh sorry, I thought you were using a DZ1000. Disregard the DZ1000 then.  Anyway, I think maybe the green wire from the Switch Motor might be putting out enough positive voltage to keep the relay in one position no matter which way it's switched. That's one answer.

You need to measure the DC voltage coming out of the Green of the switch motor for both switch positions. Also I would like to see a drawing of what you have.

cjack posted:

Oh sorry, I thought you were using a DZ1000. Disregard the DZ1000 then.  Anyway, I think maybe the green wire from the Switch Motor might be putting out enough positive voltage to keep the relay in one position no matter which way it's switched. That's one answer.

You need to measure the DC voltage coming out of the Green of the switch motor for both switch positions. Also I would like to see a drawing of what you have.

And also measure the DC coming out of the Yellow from the switch.

Chris,

You do not need a DZ-1008 relay for non-derailing.  The green and yellow wires go directly from the DZ-2500 to the track.

You only need the relay if you have long switches (#6, #8, O-80, most curved ones, etc.) and some of your engines stall on the switch due to the gap caused by the long non-powered closure rails.  The relay provides the correct AC polarity to these rails to keep power to the engine.

Chuck, 

Here is my quick and dirty schematic. I decided to do it tonight. Note that all the "hidden" (dashed lines) are DC voltage for the STM. The solid lines are common Z-stuff wiring and AC voltage. Note that I changed the white wire to orange, since the image is on a white background.

I will do the voltage measurements as you requested for both switch positions on the green and yellow wire tomorrow.

Please let me know if you have any questions. 

CAPPilot posted:

"When I build my layout there will be two. One for non-derail and the other for the STM2. 

Chris"

Chris,

You do not need a DZ-1008 relay for non-derailing.  The green and yellow wires go directly from the DZ-2500 to the track.

You only need the relay if you have long switches (#6, #8, O-80, most curved ones, etc.) and some of your engines stall on the switch due to the gap caused by the long non-powered closure rails.  The relay provides the correct AC polarity to these rails to keep power to the engine.

CAPPilot, 

Noted...Thank you for the information. I thought maybe it was noted for some reason. 

Chris 

Instead of using the Green wire out of the DZ2500, try connecting the Yellow wire out of the DZ2500 to the Green wire into the DZ1008. If the relay switches, then rearrange the NO and NC on the relay inputs to suit the position of the switch.

I lied about not having any Z Stuff, I realized last night that I had a DZ1000 to fix for a friend and hooked it up. I noticed with the oscilloscope that the Green wire had a positive voltage (it changed but still positive) no matter the switch position. The Yellow wire at least changed polarity. I realize that it's not a DZ2500, but something to think about never the less.

AmFlyer posted:

Here is a copy of the wiring diagram for my layout. The three different power supplies are picked up on the 25 position accessory buss.

But this diagram which apparently works, connects the Green to the Green (Yellow to Yellow) etc. I wonder why the DZ1008 drives another relay instead of just driving the STM2?

AmFlyer posted:

For Tortoise powered turnouts the second relay connects the turnout frog to the correct power terminal and also illuminates the red or green switch stand indicator lights. The DZ2500 turnouts have the red and green indicator lights built in but the frog still has to be powered in a 2 rail layout. The easiest way to do this is with both relays. I have not tried this in 3 rail, just the DZ1008 should work. The STM2 is looking for the presence or absence of the +5VDC to report back the position of the points.

Chuck,

I will try connecting the yellow wire from the switch to the green wire on the relay when I get home from work.

The quote above is from AM flyer about the second relay. I asked him about a month or so ago.

Chris

Chuck, the second relay is to supply track power, correctly phased, to the turnout frog depending on the position of the points. In a two rail layout there is no "common" rail because of reverse loops. Further up this set of posts I posted the wiring diagram for that second relay. I only have a few surface mount motors, most are Tortoise machines which are far simpler to monitor. They do not require the DZ1008 relay and the extra 5VDC supply. We already had all the frog power supply relays so we used them rather than try to make do with just the DZ1008 for the surface mounts.

AmFlyer posted:

Chuck, the second relay is to supply track power, correctly phased, to the turnout frog depending on the position of the points. In a two rail layout there is no "common" rail because of reverse loops....

Tom,

Thank you for the clarification; I missed that your layout was 2-rail but I should have known from your display name.

Yes, thanks from me too.

Chuck, 

I did what you told me and connected the yellow wire from the switch to the green wire on the relay, but still nothing. I also did some voltage measurements before I posted back here and when the switch is in the thru position the voltage reading on the green wire is 10.2V and when the switch is out it is 1.3V. As I threw the switch in and out I also checked the voltage out of the relay from the STM2. I connect my meter to ground and the Switch Sense Line. No matter what position the switch was thrown the voltage reading was 5V. 

After, I finish typing this post I'm going to e-mail Dennis from Z-stuff and see if he can assist with this issue and send him the diagram I drew and you developed. I still think there is something up with relay. 

Chris 

Sounds good. The relay does sound like it is at fault so far.

Chuck, 

I have a little update on this DZ-2500 and STM2 problem I'm having. As I mentioned on Monday. I emailed Dennis over at Z-stuff about the relay and also sent him the diagram of the setup I have. He wrote back today and stated that the green wire is indeed what drives the DZ-1008A relay. Dennis did say to connect both the green wire and red (power) wire from the relay together and that should cause the relay to activate. If it didn't then relay was probably bad.  I tried that this evening and attached my volt meter once again to the the 5V ground and COMM output for the STM2 and no matter what it stayed at 5V.  

Chris 

I know the Green wire ON the relay drives the relay, but did you try driving the Green wire ON the relay with the Yellow wire on the DZ2500? Just a thought wondering if it is the signal from the DZ2500 or the relay itself. Do you have a separate source, maybe 12 VAC, that you can apply to the relay without the DZ2500 connected to see if the relay works? Connect the common lead to the black on the relay and the other lead to the Green wire ON the relay.

cjack posted:

I know the Green wire ON the relay drives the relay, but did you try driving the Green wire ON the relay with the Yellow wire on the DZ2500? Just a thought wondering if it is the signal from the DZ2500 or the relay itself. Do you have a separate source, maybe 12 VAC, that you can apply to the relay without the DZ2500 connected to see if the relay works? Connect the common lead to the black on the relay and the other lead to the Green wire ON the relay.

Chuck,

Yes I did try the green wire on relay connected to the yellow wire on the switch. 

Dennis did say that the relay can be activated by a min of 5v. I will try hook-up another power source, but I think its broke. As I mentioned everything is working in the system besides the relay. There is power on the green wire and will lower depending on switch position. No matter what there is 5v on the comm to STM2 from relay no matter which way the switch is thrown. 

Chuck, 

I finally got my replacement DZ-1008A from Z-stuff. I tested it out this evening and according to the diagram below it works like a charm.

Thanks for the help.

Chris  

Looks great! Thanks for the update.