2020 American Flyer Catalog Is Online

Yep, received it in my email this morning.  All old stuff with some new road names, nothing for me - which is good since I'm no longer working.

Nice to see the new offerings. May order the Pullman heavy-weights. 

Again, I'll voice my complaint. I'd love to have the Iowa Interstate ES44ACs, but the headlight should be in the nose, not above the cab. Only correct for the NS 4000 in this catalog. Too bad they went cheap on the tooling, and didn't make the headlight movable to the nose location. Too expensive of a model to overlook.

The Pullmans are interesting and possible candidates for scalification.  Don't know if I want to take on yet another project, though.

Somewhat amazed the Frisco Meteor got reissued.  The Frisco Fast Freight and ACL could be tempting, but frankly, I think the paint jobs would look better on AM Northerns.

Rusty

I find it curious that the AF offerings are a separate catalog this year.  Last year it was all one big book.  Lionel seems all over the place with this over the years.  

Ben

So they are going to make the enhanced Berkshires after all - have my RF&P road name on order although believe they were pattered after the C&O version with different sand dome placement. Also have on order the EP-5 in NH colors.  

NotInWI posted:

I find it curious that the AF offerings are a separate catalog this year.  Last year it was all one big book.  Lionel seems all over the place with this over the years.  

Ben

I'm guessing they didn't want to "dilute" their 120th anniversary celebration.

ns1001 posted:

So they are going to make the enhanced Berkshires after all - have my RF&P road name on order although believe they were pattered after the C&O version with different sand dome placement. Also have on order the EP-5 in NH colors.  

The RF&P Berks were closer to the NKP/PM Berks, although the RF&P's sand dome was a little smaller.

Rusty

I am going to pre order the GN flyerchief northern from Charles Ro. I am on the fence regarding the matching Passenger cars (repainted Polar Express?) None of the freight cars appeal to me,Who still hauls cattle?

I wonder if any thing gets here by November?

Gunny

The Frisco was a good seller and AM made the passenger cars after a couple of us convinced Ron that Lionel wasn't going to make them.  Maybe AM will paint more sets of cars.

The heavyweights didn't start with PE so these are using the continuing tooling from long before the PE.

Cattle cars??  Of course as many of us run trains that are staged from the early part of the last century.

Lionel always includes product that is unsold or undelivered from the last catalog.  Flyerchief and Legacy Berks show up in this catalog for that reason.

I see that there is a note about an update on the Bluetooth software for Flyerchief/Lionchief.  Is this update new really?

Let's Flyonel 2020!

Bill

Roundhouse Bill posted:

The Frisco was a good seller and AM made the passenger cars after a couple of us convinced Ron that Lionel wasn't going to make them.  Maybe AM will paint more sets of cars.

The heavyweights didn't start with PE so these are using the continuing tooling from long before the PE.

Bill

The AM Frisco Meteor cars were a result of someone (Mark, a.k.a Banjoflyer?) making a proposal for them with AM.  They were true BTO and no extra sets were made.  If AM's minimum hadn't been reached the project would have withered on the vine.  Someone would have to take the initiative again with a new proposal.

The Flyer heavyweights were first released around 2005-2006 as I recall.  NYC and UP as separate sale, plus in the Alton set were where the made their debut.

Rusty

Rusty, you are partly correct.  I was the person who initially contacted Ron after I talked with Ryan Kunkle at Lionel to confirm that Lionel wasn't going to make the cars.  Later, I also got the paint numbers from Ryan because Ron wanted them, but then didn't really match the paint.

Mark and I partnered in convincing Ron to build the cars.  Mark also provided lots of information on the cars Frisco used with names for each type and the number of wheels on each truck.

When I got the article in the S Gaugian we used photos of the train from Mark's layout.  It was a partnership.

I am wondering if we could get Ron to make passenger coaches for coming Legacy Berkshire Golden Spike Limited that is being produced.  That was the special train to celebrate 100th year of the Transcontinental Railroad in 1969.  It is the blue one in the catalog.  I have one ordered.

Anybody Interested???

Thanks for posting the link @Rusty Traque

I see they brought the ES44 back, and that  I'm happy about. I see a couple that I'll be ordering. 

Hopefully this time they have a factory option for fixing the pilots. I'm looking forward to these new units.

On a sad note, another year goes by and I still dont see a SD40-2. 

Maybe next time......

I'd love to have the Iowa Interstate ES44ACs, but the headlight should be in the nose, not above the cab. Only correct for the NS 4000 in this catalog. Too bad they went cheap on the tooling, and didn't make the headlight movable to the nose location. Too expensive of a model to overlook.

This problem bothered me, too, until I "went cheap" on the fix. BTS twin sealed-beam headlight with MV lenses fit perfectly in the ES44AC nose indentation. I glued the headlight with GOOP so that I could remove it later if necessary without damaging the paint. If I get the courage, I'll put the original LEDs in the correct place and file down and patch the area between the numberboards. For now, the "wrong" headlight is barely noticeable.

snowmanw900 posted:

Thanks for posting the link @Rusty Traque

I see they brought the ES44 back, and that  I'm happy about. I see a couple that I'll be ordering. 

 

Hopefully this time they have a factory option for fixing the pilots. I'm looking forward to these new units.

On a sad note, another year goes by and I still dont see a SD40-2. 

Maybe next time......

I doubt there will be any mechanical changes to the ES44's.  They'd have to modify the frame and pilot castings.

Rusty

The 2020 catalogue description says that the Legacy Berkshires will have separate handrails but what about the other separate detail items as shown in the illustrations which have not changed since the concept was first shown. So that implies all the original added detail items are still included but needs to be confirmed.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I am wondering if we could get Ron to make passenger coaches for coming Legacy Berkshire Golden Spike Limited that is being produced.  That was the special train to celebrate 100th year of the Transcontinental Railroad in 1969.  It is the blue one in the catalog.  I have one ordered.

Anybody Interested???

Bill, are you referring to the American Railroads Berk?

Yes, It was the Nickel Plate Road 759 that was redone for that excursion and then repainted and put on static display at Steamtown in Scranton PA.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Rusty, you are partly correct.  I was the person who initially contacted Ron after I talked with Ryan Kunkle at Lionel to confirm that Lionel wasn't going to make the cars.  Later, I also got the paint numbers from Ryan because Ron wanted them, but then didn't really match the paint.

Mark and I partnered in convincing Ron to build the cars.  Mark also provided lots of information on the cars Frisco used with names for each type and the number of wheels on each truck.

When I got the article in the S Gaugian we used photos of the train from Mark's layout.  It was a partnership.

I am wondering if we could get Ron to make passenger coaches for coming Legacy Berkshire Golden Spike Limited that is being produced.  That was the special train to celebrate 100th year of the Transcontinental Railroad in 1969.  It is the blue one in the catalog.  I have one ordered.

Anybody Interested???

 

 

That was so disappointing to get them and have them not match the loco.  I never run them anymore because of that; I am tired of people asking "Why doesn't the paint match?"  They'll land on ebay soon.

Brendan  

Brendan, I was disappointed too and Ron would not give me a clear answer on the paint color. But I love the train with the cars none the less.  My guess is with the reissue of the locomotive you can sell them easily.  

However that begs the question, what will you run behind the Frisco Meteor engine?

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Yes, It was the Nickel Plate Road 759 that was redone for that excursion and then repainted and put on static display at Steamtown in Scranton PA.

Then yes, I'd love to have the heavyweights to go with it. I have one on order, but I am still not convinced that any of the Legacy Berks will actually get built.

So very disappointed with this catalog. I’m going to go out on a limb and say the reason the Legacy Berks aren’t on the shipping schedule AND they are re-cataloged here is due to lack of pre-orders. There is still no mention of several of the features that were discussed in that old post.  And I would have bet on an SD40 in this catalog. Glad I didn’t.

This group of Lionel Execs obviously does not feel that any kind of new scale product is worth investing in. Everything is targeted at the Flyer crowd. Even the ES44s lack proper details and I’m not sure some of those roads are popular but whatever.  New passenger cars with silhouettes in the windows? Honestly? I am definitely in the wrong place.

I’m tired of waiting. Time to move on I think. What had so much promise a few years ago has finally faded away.  Can’t believe I waited a year for this.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Brendan, I was disappointed too and Ron would not give me a clear answer on the paint color. But I love the train with the cars none the less.  My guess is with the reissue of the locomotive you can sell them easily.  

However that begs the question, what will you run behind the Frisco Meteor engine?

Don't know, yet.  Maybe Lionel will come out with something now that they are reissuing/using up old stock.

Brendan

NotInWI posted:

I find it curious that the AF offerings are a separate catalog this year.  Last year it was all one big book.  Lionel seems all over the place with this over the years.  

Ben

Ben,

Clicking through the Charles Ro advertising, I see that they say the AF 2020 catalog is digital only. If true, looks like Lionel might have saved a little by not printing the AF offerings in the big book.

Mike

ns1001 posted:

The 2020 catalogue description says that the Legacy Berkshires will have separate handrails but what about the other separate detail items as shown in the illustrations which have not changed since the concept was first shown. So that implies all the original added detail items are still included but needs to be confirmed.

I can confirm this. They will have a lot of separate detailing as I had pointed out quite awhile ago. We have gone ahead and made modifications to the tooling.

What we need is more preorders to hit the MOQ for these engines. I'm no salesman, but I can say that people won't be disappointed in them. 

Well, there it is from Dave.  Not enough orders yet to produce the Legacy Berk.  What we are all afraid would happen.  I have ordered mine.  Please order yours if you haven't.

At least the word came out from Lionel.

@Dave Olson can we PLEASE get a SD40?

I'm not getting any younger, and I know they would sell like hot cakes.....just sayin lol

I would't buy an SD40.  SD60 I would.

Ok, I'll buy a few extras to make up for your absence.  I'd definitely welcome some SD60 also,  but atleast we have some of those floating around in the AM line.

I believe S is the only sector of the model train world that doesn't have a SD40. I'm pretty sure every other mainstream scale/gauge has several road names in a SD40. Why?...I guess ill never understand.

I pre-ordered the last time, then they were cancelled. I've pre-ordered a second time and was encouraged/puzzled/suspicious by the appearance in the catalogue. The way I see it, Lionel is offering a steam locomotive for the same price as a diesel, and the Legacy Berkshire has more features and flexibility (AC/DC/Legacy/TMCC/DCC) than the Mikado that was more expensive about 13 years ago. That seems like a very good deal to me.

I have an order in for a Legacy Berkshire. I wonder how many more I would need to buy to get them into production. Likely more than two! I think Lionel decision makers are being somewhat short sighted in the S gauge product decisions. More quality S gauge products would lead to more sales. Not just the engines but the Legacy, power and LCS products as well. Lionel already has a good S gauge track system with enough sizes to make pretty much any track plan that can be imagined.

Dave Olson posted:

ns1001 posted:

The 2020 catalogue description says that the Legacy Berkshires will have separate handrails but what about the other separate detail items as shown in the illustrations which have not changed since the concept was first shown. So that implies all the original added detail items are still included but needs to be confirmed.

I can confirm this. They will have a lot of separate detailing as I had pointed out quite awhile ago. We have gone ahead and made modifications to the tooling.

What we need is more preorders to hit the MOQ for these engines. I'm no salesman, but I can say that people won't be disappointed in them. 

Dave,

I can never understand what the great secrecy is regarding not divulging what production runs are or what the MOQ is to make an item go into production. It isn’t like national security is being compromised to a foreign nation. Am I missing something here?

if for example the MOQ for the LB is say 1,200 items and you get 1,050 pre orders and it falters at this point, you will cancel it and say sorry people but not enough orders. Why can’t you declare what you have as pre orders and say that another 150 orders will secure production. Then we as customers might be able to give you that minimum number with a bit of extra time and everyone wins

Adding on to the post above, we do not even need to know the total, just the gap between the preorders and the MOQ. If the gap is for example 20, I would commit and order two more to help get the engine I want. So just one S gauge buyer can fill 10% of a gap that size. Its not that I necessarily want three but I would rather have three than none.

This indicates to me that the Flyer Berkshire market is saturated after two runs of the FlyerChief Berk.  I'd wager that many folks that already have the F/C version are happy and probably not interested in the Legacy version.

Oh, well.  I'll keep my pre-order open.  If it gets cancelled again, at least we know the reason why.

Rusty

I purchased four FC Berks and two have gone back(bad boards&smoke units) now I have three  of those to go back

!-Two connecting rod screws fell out one of which was stripped at assembly

2-failed board  (second time)

3--Front pilot axle retainers fell out and I believe shorted board (second time back)

All four eat traction tires like candy! No other flionel  engines do this. The others all have wider tread

and must be better  quality.

I would not advise any one to buy one of these Berkshires

Gunny

Gee. Another painful Lionel AF catalog.

1. I shall not preorder a Legacy Berk. Regrettably, Lionel has tripped on their own shoe laces too many times in the last decade (S & 0). If they build them, I will seriously consider one and I hope that an advance sample is on display at York in April. There have been a few bright spots (e.g., the Y3's, most of the Legacy PA's), but I have grown tired of buying their mistakes (color, assembly, engineering, you name it) unseen. Oh, if only Lionel had the quality and QC that Märklin has.

2. A slew of new heavyweights (good), but without interiors (bad).  Come on, guys. It's 2020. And, because they are cataloging a run of multiple sets of heavies, why no matching blue ones for the re-run of the Frisco Northern? Good grief!

3. An SD40 is a 'lay down'. Prototypically, these were owned by many, many railroads. Once the tooling was developed, they could do repaints (Lionel's favorite form of product planning) for years.

End of rant (I promise ).

Bob

This is for Dave at Big L,  I think you are missing an opportunity, actually two opportunities:

1) SF Northern 2926 is scheduled to become an active steam engine early this year--Why not produce an ACG Northern of her?

2) UP BigBoy 4014 is big news now, why not re-run the MTH  S version 4014 again, but use the Challenger trailing truck and tender tooling to improve it (and the tender would be prototypical.

Anyone know how to easily download the entire catalog?  My home computer is on dial-up and I can't view the catalog there. Interesting that both big S names have online-only catalogs. The entire world does not use high-speed internet!

"Anyone know how to easily download the entire catalog? "

Download as a .pdf, which is one of the choices.  May take a while on dial-up, but should work.

traindavid posted:

This is for Dave at Big L,  I think you are missing an opportunity, actually two opportunities:

1) SF Northern 2926 is scheduled to become an active steam engine early this year--Why not produce an ACG Northern of her?

2) UP BigBoy 4014 is big news now, why not re-run the MTH  S version 4014 again, but use the Challenger trailing truck and tender tooling to improve it (and the tender would be prototypical.

 

Gee.  AM has the exact model for the 2926.  I seriously doubt Lionel would be willing to tool up for a duplicate model for such a limited market.

MTH never made an S Scale Big Boy...

Sorry, but the only way I would be interested in a Flyer Big Boy was if it was accurately scaled like the Challenger and not a warmed-over, oversized ex-K-Line model.

Rusty

Oops I meant the K-Line tooling that was modified for S.  If they used their later Challenger trailing truck and Tender, most of the "errors" would be fixed. AND it would look MUCH better

I don't see that "download as .pdf" option anywhere, what am I missing, and NO, it won't work on dial-up, but I can do it from wi fi when I'm in town on my laptop.

Ah, I found it, it was on a drop down menu.

traindavid posted:

Oops I meant the K-Line tooling that was modified for S.  If they used their later Challenger trailing truck and Tender, most of the "errors" would be fixed. AND it would look MUCH better

 

Notice nobody's ever published a photo of the Flyer/K-Line Big Boy and Flyer Challenger side by side?  At least none that I could find.  As I recall, the BB is 1:58 proportion vs S Scale's 1:64 propotion.

The Flyer Challenger's tender is physically smaller than the K-Line BB tender.  It wouldn't improve the looks and only add more emphasis to the oversized locomotive.

The combination would be a half baked solution at a fully baked price.  Not something I'd be willing to pay for.

Rusty

HMM, I will have to compare them side by side sometime.

OK, I can't seem to download the entire catalog, I just get one page at a time, what am I doing wrong?

I have two Challengers and a BigBoy on my layout. I will take some side by side pictures tomorrow and post them. No way the Challenger tender can be used with the BigBoy, the size difference is too great.

Meh.  I'll spend my money on scratch building, modifying what I have and making more building models for my layout.

I wonder how much of that pre-order gap could have been filled by those wanting scale wheels.  While it's a minority of the S market, there are plenty of them who have liked the detail of the Flyonel Legacy & TMCC steamers (except of course the Big Boy), but had to stay away because they only came with high rail flanges.  In fact so much so that Fred Rouse sold scale wheel conversions of the Y-3 using wheels he custom machined.   While I can run high rail wheels on my code 125 layout, I certainly would have preferred scale wheels for the Legacy Berk I pre-ordered. 

I don't understand putting all the effort into creating such finely detailed scale models such as the Y-3, and presumably the Berk, but then offering it only with the toy like wheels. No, that is not a criticism of high railers because as stated above my layout is high rail.  My interests span the spectrum from my vintage Flyer toys to my scale brass models.   When I am investing $500+ in a new loco, I don't want something whose beautiful scale look is diminished by mismatched wheels.  Not to mention it limits me to only running it on high rail layouts.   I know I am in the minority, but I am certain more Legacy Berks would have been ordered if this option was there.  Would it have been enough to offset the cost of manufacturing those wheels?, maybe not.

I have been watching how the Bigboys sell when they show up on auctions and they are not bringing high prices.  About a third less that what we paid for them.  I doubt it would be profitable for Lionel to reissue them.

There is supposed to be one of those Lionel shows on Facebook today featuring the American Flyer catalog.  No time mentioned.  I hope that someone will ask how many more Legacy Berks need to be ordered before they can be produced.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I have been watching how the Bigboys sell when they show up on auctions and they are not bringing high prices.  About a third less that what we paid for them.  I doubt it would be profitable for Lionel to reissue them.

That's probably because people are realizing how oversized they are vs. the rest of the Flyer line.

There is supposed to be one of those Lionel shows on Facebook today featuring the American Flyer catalog.  No time mentioned.  I hope that someone will ask how many more Legacy Berks need to be ordered before they can be produced.

1:30 pm Eastern time.

I wouldn't hold out too much hope for much mention of any Flyer.  In the last one the waved a milk tank flat car around without even mentioning it was Flyer.  Plus, these things are pretty much unwatchable, (I stepped through the last one looking for the Flyer mention) too much kibitzing and "my, aren't we funny" type things, no close ups of what they're talking about.

Rusty

As promised, here are some comparison pictures of 4014 with a Challenger, the 5121 NP. The first picture is head on to give an idea of the relative size. Second is a rear view of the tenders. Third and fourth is a side view of the tenders coupled to a standard box car to show the relative height. Fifth  are the tenders side by side.

Some dimensions are as follows, the Challenger tender is 8 3/8” long, 2 3/4” high from the rail, 1 7/8” wide and weighs 33.4 oz (don’t tell my wife I put trains on her food scale!) The BigBoy tender is 8”long, 3” high, 2 1/8” wide and weighs 47.7oz. The length does not include couplers, the height is to the top of the rear deck, not the coal pile.

The major difference is in operation. The BigBoy is an O gauge engine on S gauge wheels. It uses all the O gauge boards, motor and odyssey speed control with 200 absolute steps. It is the best operating S gauge Legacy steam engine, the Y3 is close but the BigBoy is better. The Challengers are embarrassingly bad compared to it.

I plan to keep buying Legacy engines as new ones are produced. There are some quality issues with the wiring and electronics on some engines, I just budget the fixes into my purchases. It is still a lot less expensive than the cost to buy an AM engine and have it converted to TMCC with a fan driven smoke unit. I also had 4014 modified to incorporate all the improvements shown on tuveson.com, well worth the cost.

Here are two older pictures I had with a yard stick. This is 4014 and UP Challenger 3985. The overall length is not much different.

Years ago in S Gaugian the exact scale differences between the BigBoy and S were given.  When K Line built the tooling it was smaller than true O gauge and all the S Gauge guys wanted them to make it to fit S Gauge tracks.  I have a friend that has one of the K Line engines that somebody converted to S.  

My Lionel version runs well and I am happy with it.  No, it's tender isn't perfect and the engine a few scale feet large, but it runs well.  It was real exciting years ago when it came out.  For what they bring now I won't sell mine.

Rusty, the SD 70s and ES 44s look over sized compared to the 40 foot boxcars from the years past.  What those engines pull today is far larger.  Lionel just doesn't seem to want to make today's rolling stock that these locos pull although they do it in O.  American Models does build rolling stock that is more appropriate and that is what I have behind them on my layout.  But the Big Boys did pull 40 foot box cars.

AmFlyer posted:

As promised, here are some comparison pictures of 4014 with a Challenger, the 5121 NP. The first picture is head on to give an idea of the relative size. Second is a rear view of the tenders. Third and fourth is a side view of the tenders coupled to a standard box car to show the relative height. Fifth  are the tenders side by side.

Some dimensions are as follows, the Challenger tender is 8 3/8” long, 2 3/4” high from the rail, 1 7/8” wide and weighs 33.4 oz (don’t tell my wife I put trains on her food scale!) The BigBoy tender is 8”long, 3” high, 2 1/8” wide and weighs 47.7oz. The length does not include couplers, the height is to the top of the rear deck, not the coal pile.

The major difference is in operation. The BigBoy is an O gauge engine on S gauge wheels. It uses all the O gauge boards, motor and odyssey speed control with 200 absolute steps. It is the best operating S gauge Legacy steam engine, the Y3 is close but the BigBoy is better. The Challengers are embarrassingly bad compared to it.

I plan to keep buying Legacy engines as new ones are produced. There are some quality issues with the wiring and electronics on some engines, I just budget the fixes into my purchases. It is still a lot less expensive than the cost to buy an AM engine and have it converted to TMCC with a fan driven smoke unit. I also had 4014 modified to incorporate all the improvements shown on tuveson.com, well worth the cost.

 

Thanks, Tom.  These pictures say it all. 

Now I realize the size difference doesn't matter to some (plus it looks like the K-Line also has some selective compression) but it does matter to me.  The fact it was oversized is the very reason I didn't buy a Big Boy .  That fact bothers me more than the molded on handrails on the FlyerChief Berk.

Now, if Lionel would make a BB in true 1:64, I'm in.

Rusty

Roundhouse Bill posted:

Rusty, the SD 70s and ES 44s look over sized compared to the 40 foot boxcars from the years past.  What those engines pull today is far larger.  Lionel just doesn't seem to want to make today's rolling stock that these locos pull although they do it in O.  American Models does build rolling stock that is more appropriate and that is what I have behind them on my layout.  But the Big Boys did pull 40 foot box cars.

 

However, the SD70's and ES44's are still properly scaled, unlike the Big Boy.  The difference between these diesels and steam era rolling stock is time, not space.  They are big, honkin' diesels in real life and you won't find a 40' boxcar in interchange service anywhere today.  

...And I do have a nice selection of AM, PRS and SSA cars to go behind my SD70's and ES44, even if some of the road names are obsolete.

Rusty

Well, I watched the Lionel Catalog show just now and it was over 40 minutes.  Lots of great information.  Here are a few points I found important.

1. the preorders on the Legacy Berk on the last catalog were half of what was ordered the first time several years ago.   That is why it was cataloged again as they want as many orders as possible.

2. They said it will be produced in numbers at the preordered amount.  No real extras will be done.  They said for all preorders the end of March is the ending date.   Yes, it will be produced.

3. They had a preproduction model with some, but not all of the detail on it for the presentation.  They said the loco would have a Mars light among other detail add ons.

4. They said the Northerns and EP5s will look the same as before the but have updated electronics and trucks for the EP5.  

5.  They keep producing the traditional flyer type rolling stock because the demand is high for it.

6. the AF catalog is digital only and was done because the Lionel Big Catalog was so large they didn't want AF to be lost.

7. They said that the PE in AF was doing well and that is why they keep adding new cars and pieces.

8.  The preorder date for all products is the end of March. 

Lets Order!!

I just Checked Charles RO and his preorder deadline date is March 6th

AMFlyer, since you have both engines 'out and about'  how about a picture of tghe  4014 with 2985's tender behind it to see if it looks that much out of place. I will admit, 4014 is larger than 3985, more than they are in real life. Oh well. . . . . .

In that case, can I ask for a Daylight  based on the old AF Northern chassis (I know, the drive wheels aren't the right size)

Bill,

That was Charles Ro pre buy price deadline,Not the order deadline.

Gunny

David, three pictures as requested. It looked better in real life than I expected. The engine/tender set cannot actually be run this way. The wireless tethers are different and the tongue of the 4014 will not fit in the Challenger receiver.

Thanks. Yeah, I imagine that if L did that, they would make the connections compatible!

It doesn't look TOO bad, but yes, it does show the BB boiler, etc. is a bit um, large.

Rusty Traque posted:

This indicates to me that the Flyer Berkshire market is saturated after two runs of the FlyerChief Berk.  I'd wager that many folks that already have the F/C version are happy and probably not interested in the Legacy version.

Oh, well.  I'll keep my pre-order open.  If it gets cancelled again, at least we know the reason why.

Rusty

Exactly. Let's think about this.... there are essentially 3 main niche groups within S standard gauge right? Scale, Hi-Rail, and Traditional AF.  You could argue there are 4 with proto:64, but for discussion sake let's just lump them in with scale.

-Traditional AF fans are happy with the FC Berks. This crowd is typically price conscious and are happy with toy-like appearances. Probably not a lot of orders from this group.

-Hi-Rail modelers are probably the group most interested in the Legacy Berks. They tend to prefer more realistic models, but they may still have AF from their youth that they like to run. The question is, how many of this group already purchased the FC Berk and don't feel like upgrading. Perhaps they don't have or want Legacy? 

-Scale modelers - For the most part want nothing to do with the Legacy Berk because, of course, it does not have scale wheels and therefore will not run on their layouts. The real shame here is that of the 1400+ members on the S scale Facebook group I have a feeling that many of them would have been interested if it would have been offered with scale wheels based on the discussions that I've had. Unfortunately, it won't be built with scale wheels so we will never know.

I do not understand the logic of making a product in a niche scale like S and then intentionally limiting your audience by 2/3rds. S-Helper had it figured out. What is so hard about following their lead? 

What's frustrating to me is that I had 4 of these things on order (for a model that isn't even in my top 10)  but what I want isn't enough to move the needle. So yeah, go ahead Lionel, keep targeting the wrong group with the wrong product and penalize those of us that are willing to spend the money and pre-order. I hate to say it this way, but if you are in business you need to know your customers, their demographics, and their spending habits. I'm not sure Lionel does.

I came out of 3R O where I spent a lot of money over the years to S because of products like the Challenger, Pacific, Mikado, Y-3, ES44, SD70, and U33. I helped Jon Z with Beta testing of DCC integration into the Legacy system. I had a real excitement for the future of scale detailed S products. That seems like a long time ago. I don't know if I can take this slow pace. We have been talking about this Berk for years now. I love the size of S, but I'm getting really envious of the product availability and advancements in HO scale. At least in HO you don't have to beg for Kadee couplers, fixed pilots, and prototypical details.

I do not understand the logic of making a product in a niche scale like S and then intentionally limiting your audience by 2/3rds. S-Helper had it figured out. What is so hard about following their lead?

You need to know the numbers better.  The scale market in S gauge is 15% of the total.  Those numbers have been verified by the sales of Lionel, MTH, and AM.  Traditional Hi Rail people is the 85% that counts to the manufacturers.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I do not understand the logic of making a product in a niche scale like S and then intentionally limiting your audience by 2/3rds. S-Helper had it figured out. What is so hard about following their lead?

You need to know the numbers better.  The scale market in S gauge is 15% of the total.  Those numbers have been verified by the sales of Lionel, MTH, and AM.  Traditional Hi Rail people is the 85% that counts to the manufacturers.

I think the those numbers are irrelevant. Fact is, seeing how Lionel caters to the hi rail people,  theres no way to draw in the serious number of people wanting a legit scale rolling stock to go with the modern scale engines. 

What's sad is, eventually when the older generation (which make up the vast majority of hi-railers) pass on or are no longer able to enjoy the hobby,  the sales of S will decline and there will most definitely be a void.  At some point they will have to transition to more scale to attract the younger generation because the younger generation is not interested in Hi-rail. There is literally NO modern rolling stock that portrays modern times by Lionel. The days of the silly paint jobs, toy themed trains, and totally unrealistic products to the scale crowd, will have to eventually slow way down or stop.  Not many are really gonna be interested in that stuff.

Why not start now (Lionel and MTH) and draw in the prospective S interested? Theres plenty of people that would definitely spend money and grow the S market now.  It seems the older generation is having a hard time wanting to pass the torch, and because Lionel likes putting their eggs mostly in 1 basket,  I believe they are passing up a great opportunity to keep the S market going strong into the future. 

snowmanw900 posted:

  At some point they will have to transition to more scale to attract the younger generation because the younger generation is not interested in Hi-rail. There is literally NO modern rolling stock that portrays modern times by Lionel. The days of the silly paint jobs, toy themed trains, and totally unrealistic products to the scale crowd, will have to eventually slow way down or stop.  Not many are really gonna be interested in that stuff.

Once the hirailers are gone, manufacturing of S will probably just stop.  I agree, besides virtually no selection, hirail hinders adoption of S.  In HO, there is no scale v hirail; everything is pretty much compatible with everything else and the distinguishing factor is level of detail.  HO has evolved - truck mounted couplers are gone, kadee compatible couplers are the norm, metal wheels are the norm, wheel flanges are standard, no "traditional" size cars, etc.  There is proto87, but that is a minority, as it is in any scale.  Too bad S isn't in the position that HO was in 30/40 years ago - just buy the car, swap on kadees (or not) for a buck or two, and run.  SHS and others tried. 

I can't see why the average modeler would choose S over HO - both S camps (hirail or scale) have severe limitations.  In HO, there are models of cars where the prototype had less than 50 actual cars manufactured.  In S, we can't even get an SD40.  As said by others, it looked as though the tide was turning a few years ago, but that seemed to have reverted.  

I have mostly hirail items since I started out that way.  However, I would've preferred that S evolved as HO did.

Brendan 

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I do not understand the logic of making a product in a niche scale like S and then intentionally limiting your audience by 2/3rds. S-Helper had it figured out. What is so hard about following their lead?

You need to know the numbers better.  The scale market in S gauge is 15% of the total.  Those numbers have been verified by the sales of Lionel, MTH, and AM.  Traditional Hi Rail people is the 85% that counts to the manufacturers.

Pardon my French, but hiding behind the numbers is BS.

SHS and AM manage(d) to cater to both the scale and HiRail Market.  That 15% was still buying SHS cars equipped for HiRail and changing out the wheelsets and couplers.  After all it's the exact same product, the only difference for these two companies is essentially wheels and couplers.  AM is a little different in you have to specify.

Plus, if nothing else conversion from one style to the other is easy going either way.

And lookee here, even Lionel can design a car that can be converted although it took a little more effort:

Granted, locomotives are a little more complicated because of the alphabet soup of control systems, but not impossible.  I have Lionel/Flyer locomotives running on my scale railroad because of the forethought of design.  Again, all I had to do was change the wheels and couplers.

MTH has been a little slow to catch on, but at least has begun to offer cars with scale wheels and couplers.  And MTH continues to offer scale wheels and couplers included with their diesel locomotives.

Now, just exactly what's so hard about that?

Rusty

The other problem with Berk sales is they came out with the low cost item first then introduced the higher priced item.  Typically in manufacturing (Again not always) the model is to come out with the full feature version, get as many sales as possible, and then they introduce a lower priced version with reduced features for those who could not afford the higher priced full feature version.  In Lionel's case they introduced the Flyerchief version first.  I for one bought those Berks and could not justify buying the Legacy versions.  Had the Legacy versions come out first I would have bought them and preferred them.  If I was Lionel I would always release the Legacy version first then follow up with the Flyerchief second.

--Rocco--

Rocco posted:

Typically in manufacturing (Again not always) the model is to come out with the full feature version, get as many sales as possible, and then they introduce a lower priced version with reduced features for those who could not afford the higher priced full feature version. 

Exactly!

Some great posts today.  I have argued here and elsewhere that Gen X has entered that stage in life where people tend to spend real money on their leisure interests.  I am one, and I know others who came into the hobby in their late 40's, laid out lots of cash to get stuff in our chosen road names and eras, but are now a bit stymied by lack of new stuff to buy, both in types of locos & rolling stock and in road names. 

So we stalk Ebay for models produced prior to us coming into serious hobbying or for scratch built from some of the great S modelers.  Or we wait for catalogues that disappoint or that show items that never get produced or get produced years later.  Or we wait to see if RRM or SSA is going to do a project and hope it includes a road name in which we are interested.

That's so much waiting that a friend of mine and I are considering investing in producing an SD40-2 (plastic shell, highly detailed, offered in scale and high rail a la SHS, DC, AC or DCC plug in) using an HO manufacturer we have identified. Not sure if we'll get it to fly, but trying feels better than waiting.

I feel sorry for you scale guys.  I interviewed people at Lionel, MTH, and AM over the years.  Their answer was there weren't enough scale buyers to really answer their needs as they express them.   MTH called them the noisy few.

You have been saying the same things for years and the producers give you meager answers.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

I feel sorry for you scale guys.  I interviewed people at Lionel, MTH, and AM over the years.  Their answer was there weren't enough scale buyers to really answer their needs as they express them.   MTH called them the noisy few.

You have been saying the same things for years and the producers give you meager answers.

And yet we're not going away.

S product output is moving at the same speed for HiRail and Scale from both AM and MTH.

MTH still seems willing to take our noisy money.  If MTH has such a low opinion of us, why are they even bothering to include scale wheels and couplers in their locomotives and offering new freight cars with scale wheels?

Easy.  It still results in more sales and because the remaining people stuck in 1957 aren't buying their stuff.

And AM still offers scale wheels on their products.

Rusty

Brendan posted

  In HO, there is no scale v hirail; everything is pretty much compatible with everything else and the distinguishing factor is level of detail.  HO has evolved - truck mounted couplers are gone, kadee compatible couplers are the norm, metal wheels are the norm, wheel flanges are standard, no "traditional" size cars, etc. 

Spot on. And that's why I don't feel like I  am asking for anything special, just the option to buy versions that HO or N would consider SOP.

There is an easy answer for AM.  They are a one scale company "S". 

You can put all the "S" products from MTH in a medium sized shipping box.  They are using the tool work of S Helper and have done none of their own.  Only the one engine they produced has their unique components.  The scale wheels and including them in their products is left over from S Helper probably.

The big producer of "S" is Lionel and they have given you really nothing except for the Cylindrical Hoppers that were flawed.  Their production is for the Flyer guys as it makes money.

The Flyer guys are going to stay in place because it is easy and there is tons of product old and new.  The scale guys are what will go away.  Where does scale stuff go when a person leaves the hobby?  The Flyer hi rail stuff has an active market.

SD-40 Thought

I was wondering if anybody has ever approached Ron Bashista of American Models about producing this locomotive?  If the market for it is so large you think he would consider it. 

He has different sized chassis for his diesels so one might be the right size or adaptable.  he would need the tooling for the shell of course.  It has been said that many roads used the engine so he would have an almost infinite variety to meet the customer needs for their road.  

Roundhouse Bill posted:

There is an easy answer for AM.  They are a one scale company "S". 

You can put all the "S" products from MTH in a medium sized shipping box.  They are using the tool work of S Helper and have done none of their own.  Only the one engine they produced has their unique components.  The scale wheels and including them in their products is left over from S Helper probably.

MTH's scale wheels aren't leftovers.  They are slightly different than SHS's.

You can diss us all you want. The scale guys have been here since the 1940's.  We're not going anywhere.  

Need I remind you that MTH also makes 2-rail scale O products for those folks?  I'm sure their money is just as noisy as S scalers. Even Lionel, while not bending over backwards, is making their newer O Scale freight cars easily convertible to 2 rail scale.

And once again,  the primary difference between both HiRail and Scale with AM and MTH is wheels and couplers.  It's not rocket science.  And it's a lot less complicated than going from 3-rail O to 2-rail O concerning locomotives.

The big producer of "S" is Lionel and they have given you really nothing except for the Cylindrical Hoppers that were flawed.  Their production is for the Flyer guys as it makes money.

And they've corrected that flaw at their expense. They didn't have to.  Plus, us scalers figure out ways around the hopper's shortcomings.  I also suppose the SD70's and ES44's are chopped liver.   Perhaps it would have been better in your view that Lionel compressed the bodies to fit on the GP frame.

I don't deny Lionel is the big fish in a small pond.  Both Flyer/HiRail and Scale share that shrinking pond.

I really don't see Lionel bringing hoards of people into S in General.  Remember Ryan and Dave also mentioned the EP5's also didn't yet meet minimum order quantities.  And the surprise addition in the 2019 V2 catalog of U36C roadnames was to fill out production quantities from 2019 V1. 

The Flyer guys are going to stay in place because it is easy and there is tons of product old and new.  The scale guys are what will go away.  Where does scale stuff go when a person leaves the hobby?  The Flyer hi rail stuff has an active market.

Like everything else: Estate equipment goes to Ebay, swaps, private sales or the dumpster.  It's the same future for Flyer.  I didn't see a lot of Flyer changing hands at the last S Fest I attended.

Rusty

 

 

I have held short of REALLY saying what I feel for fear of upsetting or offending people, but here goes...

I am 46. I have modeled in many scales for 43 of those years, but S is my favorite because of size and 2 rails. Previously I was in 3R O for years. I finally grew tired of the compromises and the 3rd rail. This coincided with Lionel bringing out 2R S scale models that had all the features that their O gauge models have (sound, smoke, etc...). I liked the size and those features that Lionel was bringing compared to HO, but other than that HO has a whole lot going for it (as mentioned above). That was 8 years ago...

My comments to Lionel were that they should do more to target crossover modelers from O and HO. Selling to the Diehard AF crowd was fine, but also offer compelling scale products to pull people from other scales. There Is NO chance that will happen with traditional AF products. Besides, the new (younger) customers are overwhelmingly going to HO. To be polite, the market for traditional AF products is going to all but dry up within the next 20 years. On the other hand, scale models will still be in demand. So I'm not advocating to do ALL scale products, but economics and demographics alone make the case for INCREASING the scale mix over time. Just selling to the AF loyalists is a sure fire way to watch this business dwindle away to the point that it is no longer viable.

The other point was the fact that most AF modelers (In my experience) do not spend nearly as much on their hobby as I have witnessed in 3RO, 2RO, or HO for that matter. My personal 3R annual budget was somewhere between $5k-$8k per year. I know many who spend much more than that. I currently have over $12k worth of 2RO on order. Again, I know many that are significantly higher. My point is not to try make myself look good, it is to illustrate a simple fact...

I am the target audience that the Lionel should be listening/catering to. I have disposable income, a track record for spending it, willingness to help the community (Facebook group, Beta testing, Etc...), interest in their products, and statistically speaking I will be a customer for 30 or 40 more years. I want models that are accurate in detail, dimension, sound, etc... with as few compromises as possible (Ex. fixed pilots,  scale couplers, detailed interiors). Basically, give me HO products in 1/64 scale. I would literally cancel and reallocate all $12k of my 2RO pre-orders today if there were anything of interest to me being offered by Lionel.

Alas... I fear this ship has sailed and I'm raging against the wind, but at least I have said my peace. I am on the precipice of liquidating my S inventory once again and moving on for good. If this is what S is going to be from Lionel, MTH, and AM then I may as well throw in the towel and change scales for good. Too little products, too much drama, and life is too short.

Roundhouse Bill posted:

The Flyer guys are going to stay in place because it is easy and there is tons of product old and new.  The scale guys are what will go away.  Where does scale stuff go when a person leaves the hobby?  The Flyer hi rail stuff has an active market.

 

 

I disagree vehemently with your statement. 20 years from now most American Flyer folks will have passed on. Scale model railroading will still be going strong. The point we are trying to make is that unless S starts to focus on scale products the entire scale will disappear or turn into the next OO scale. There is still time to pull others into S, but the ONLY future S has is with scale products. Otherwise it will die. 

"I currently have over $12k worth of 2RO on order."

Just out of curiosity,  did you mean O gauge?  I found nothing offensive about your post.  I'm about 25 years older and have modeled or owned Z, N, HO, O gauge three rail and G gauge trains.  Never S, although I have very fond memories of looking at the American Flyer catalogs as a boy.  I see the appeal of S in many ways, but clearly O gauge, particularly 3 rail, is a much larger market today than S.  That was true in 1955 too.  The same is also true but an order of magnitude larger market for HO.  I'm more of a toy guy, so while I understand your passion for scale, it's not one I share.  I think HO folks are indeed more scale oriented than S or O gauge hobbyists. 

I think Lionel is not thinking 20 years in the future, when essentially all who were alive when AC Gilbert was in business will be gone from the scene.  They are thinking the next few years, and apparently, American Flyer type S sells substantially larger volumes than true to scale S, or so they say.  Why would they lie to us?  So one needs to either live with those limitations or find another scale to work in if prototypic fidelity is the highest priority.  You've made that conclusion it seems.  

Personally, it's clear to me HO would be that scale for anyone in their teens, 20s or 30s, hands down.  It was for me until age about 40 for cost considerations.  But there is no denying the heft and visual appeal of S, O and G.  The reason I don't include 40s and 50s in that group is the inevitable deterioration of vision that occurs during the 5th through 9th decades of life. I've only recently required reading glasses, but they compromise the pleasure of doing manual tasks for me, including reading.  So you may want to reconsider HO for the long haul if you have a similar experience down the road, or even today.  For me, HO just not visually and touch-wise sufficiently large.  Ironically, I still buy some N scale, and even occasional Z scale,  because it takes up so little space and is "cute." 

Good luck whatever you decide.  But you may change your mind a few times over the next 20-30 years.

Parenthetically, I'm guessing American Flyer fans will still be around 20-30 years from now, even when those who now know much about the Gilbert company are long gone. 

Many of the three rail hobbyists these days who are doing the most buying from Lionel were born long after JL Cowen died.  If you attend York, there are lots of folks in their 30s, 40s and 50s who came of age long after Lionel's heyday.  People can be nostalgic for things they never experienced first hand.  Look at all the Civil War buffs and people who collect old cars, medieval armor etc.

Landsteiner posted:

"I currently have over $12k worth of 2RO on order."

Just out of curiosity,  did you mean O gauge?  I found nothing offensive about your post.  I'm about 25 years older and have modeled or owned Z, N, HO, O gauge three rail and G gauge trains.  Never S, although I have very fond memories of looking at the American Flyer catalogs as a boy.  I see the appeal of S in many ways, but clearly O gauge, particularly 3 rail, is a much larger market today than S.  That was true in 1955 too.  The same is also true but an order of magnitude larger market for HO.  I'm more of a toy guy, so while I understand your passion for scale, it's not one I share.  I think HO folks are indeed more scale oriented than S or O gauge hobbyists. 

I think Lionel is not thinking 20 years in the future, when essentially all who were alive when AC Gilbert was in business will be gone from the scene.  They are thinking the next few years, and apparently, American Flyer type S sells substantially larger volumes than true to scale S, or so they say.  Why would they lie to us?  So one needs to either live with those limitations or find another scale to work in if prototypic fidelity is the highest priority.  You've made that conclusion it seems.  

Personally, it's clear to me HO would be that scale for anyone in their teens, 20s or 30s, hands down.  It was for me until age about 40 for cost considerations.  But there is no denying the heft and visual appeal of S, O and G.  The reason I don't include 40s and 50s in that group is the inevitable deterioration of vision that occurs during the 5th through 9th decades of life. I've only recently required reading glasses, but they compromise the pleasure of doing manual tasks for me, including reading.  So you may want to reconsider HO for the long haul if you have a similar experience down the road, or even today.  For me, HO just not visually and touch-wise sufficiently large.  Ironically, I still buy some N scale, and even occasional Z scale,  because it takes up so little space and is "cute." 

Good luck whatever you decide.  But you may change your mind a few times over the next 20-30 years.

Parenthetically, I'm guessing American Flyer fans will still be around 20-30 years from now, even when those who now know much about the Gilbert company are long gone. 

Many of the three rail hobbyists these days who are doing the most buying from Lionel were born long after JL Cowen died.  If you attend York, there are lots of folks in their 30s, 40s and 50s who came of age long after Lionel's heydays.  People can be nostalgic for things they never experienced first hand.  Look at all the Civil War buffs and people who collect old cars, medieval armor etc.

Good and fair points sir. Yes, that pre-order amount is what I currently have with Sunset/3rd Rail for 2 Rail O scale models. 

On paper, HO offers a lot but I have never liked it's size. Ironically, like you I still purchase a bit of N because it's "cute". I prefer the larger scale for the ease of seeing details (I've recently had my sight start its decline too) and the big sound and smoke. So I will not likely go to HO, but back to 2 Rail O even though it is not far behind S on the slippery slope towards irrelevancy.

"So I will not likely go to HO, but back to 2 Rail O even though it is not far behind S on the slippery slope towards irrelevancy."

If it's any consolation, I think O gauge 2 rail prototypic equipment will continue to be a viable niche market for many decades to come.  With the advent of improved, cost-effective model building techniques, short runs of custom built models may become more common than at present.  Much of this industry has relied upon the passion of hobbyist/manufacturers and they will continue to be a small,  but I think effective resource for those with your tastes and priorities.  I think that's particularly likely for O gauge 2 rail, which has survived predictions of its death for most of my adult life (e.g., half a century).   Even G gauge has survived the near demise of its primary vendor, LGB.  I suspect 2 rail O gauge will survive as a cottage industry even if both Lionel and MTH disappear from the scene, which isn't likely in the near term.  Godspeed.

Well, what you say about 2 rail 0 (in terms of short-run production possibilities) is also true about S (which is also 2 rail! ).  On another thread someone posted that this list has lots of people who think they could run Lionel better Well, yes, at least when it comes to S there are many of us who would not make the mistakes that L has made (what mistakes you ask?-- couplers that don't open fully to uncouple/couple, metal coupler bodies that create short circuits when the paint wears off (NP passenger set), Keeping the added molded on step on the PA bodies and then adding the earlier metal ladders back on so they are low enough to strike the action rails, the too high hoppers, and the current somewhat ugly oversized freight car trucks. . . .I could go on. . ) Some of these mistakes are being corrected--finally. Another example was their "toe in the water" experiment with the K-Line BigBoy in S that sold so well they did a better version with the Challenger and the Y-2--but never designed either to share tooling with any future product! Each items seems to be made as a one-off only.  The Polar Express and the docksider sets are the only items the seem to be kept going long term. (Once again, if they'd dust off the PRR 0-6-0 slope back tender engine, it would be more popular than the docksider!).  I don't need to do a survey to know this, nor do many other S folks. And the scale folks would also like the PRR engine too!

Another area where I think they are really missing the boat is not doing a Daylight 4-8-4. With 3-D printing, it wouldn't take much to put a short-run production together--even if it was on the existing 4-8-4 chassis--yes, the scale guys would not like it, but I think it would still sell. AND YES, it would be fantastic to have one done "properly" but I'm not holding my breath.

OH, BTW, I AM available. . . . .

I find myself in agreement with the concerns expressed about Lionel's lack of scale compatible product. In their defense, when it comes to engines it may be more complex than wheel profiles and couplers. Since the best detailed engines are Legacy I wonder if S scale operators will pay the added cost of Legacy even if it is fully DC and DCC compatible. I can run anything scale on my layout except for a few large rigid frame steam engines. The catch is they have to be Legacy compatible or easy to modify to be Legacy compatible. I have a few scale wheeled AM engines and they are fun to use because w/o traction tires they need to be double or triple headed just like the real thing.

When it comes to purchasing new products I have never found myself in the position of skipping a purchase because I exceeded my budget. Not because the budget is large but because the amount of new S gauge Lionel products is small. All of my train spending is for new product, I quit buying Gilbert items 10 years ago because I have all the Gilbert items I want.

I tried HO for about 5 years but it is not for me, too small. My layouts will never have 3 rails so I stayed with my original trains, American Flyer and S. What is nice about the Lionel S gauge line is that all the power and control they make focused on O gauge is fully compatible with S. We need to keep encouraging Lionel to make more S gauge and to think about how to better accommodate those who want scale products.

I have some good news. 

I have been emailing back and forth with Ryan Kunkle about the presidential observation car Ferdinand Magellan.  I was wondering how much work went in to this unique railroad can.  He said it will not be a perfect match to the real car, but it will be close using existing tooling. 

I was surprised how much he has researched the car.  He even sent me photos from his file on it.  This comes from his earlier job with Lionel.  Ryan was in charge of researching locomotives and rolling stock for Lionel so that they could determine what would be the best to produce and bring to market.

With all the criticism we throw at Lionel it is enlightening to know they do this work before cataloging future product. 

Have a preorder in for the Legacy RF&P Berkshire(thanks to the forum member who pointed out that the road name I chose is very close to the NKP prototype). Also preordered the NH EP-5 which I have wanted since it appeared on the back cover of the 1956 catalogue.