I have a trusty old Lionel 2065 Baby Hudson which apparently has its armature shorted against its shaft.  I get a lot of sparking when testing the commutator segments and the armature shaft.  When its tries to run a lot of smoke emanates from the armature.  I would like to get a new armature but removing the old seems to require pulling some of the drivers off their axles.  I've never pulled a driver off before.  Is this the only way it can be removed?   Any tips someone might suggest?  Any guidance will be appreciated.  

Original Post

Simply remove the two screws retaining the brush plate and carefully move it aside (wires still attached). The brushes may fall out, so watch for that. The armature can then be slightly rotated and angled up to come right out. No need to remove wheels (hopefully!).

It may help to remove the armature bearing plate on the opposite side of the brush plate to get greater maneuverability.

If you can't get it out, then I would go for extending the gauge of the flanged driver (with out rotating it about the axle preserving the quartering) after removing the side rod on the brush plate side and seeing if that gets you enough space. Later, you can use a vice to lessen the wheel gauge to the proper size. If the wheel comes off the axle, then you are looking at a complicated quartering operation best done with a proper set of wheel cups and arbor press: http://www.hobbyhorseproducts....HorseCatalog2015.pdf

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bmoran4 posted:

Simply remove the two screws retaining the brush plate and carefully move it aside (wires still attached). The brushes may fall out, so watch for that. The armature can then be slightly rotated and angled up to come right out. No need to remove wheels (hopefully!).

It may help to remove the armature bearing plate on the opposite side of the brush plate to get greater maneuverability.

If you can't get it out, then I would go for extending the gauge of the flanged driver (with out rotating it about the axle preserving the quartering) after removing the side rod on the brush plate side and seeing if that gets you enough space. Later, you can use a vice to lessen the wheel gauge to the proper size. If the wheel comes off the axle, then you are looking at a complicated quartering operation best done with a proper set of wheel cups and arbor press: http://www.hobbyhorseproducts....HorseCatalog2015.pdf

Thanks for the response.  I had already tried what you have suggested regarding maneuvering the armature around so as not to have to remove the wheels but so far without success.  I will continue to try since I really don't want to have to deal with extending/removal and replacement of a driver.  Thanks for your help.  I appreciate it.

Agree with trying to get it out as is i have on some but do not recall which as i have most of the postwar steamers with that parallel motor 2055/65 2046 675 2025 726 7236 etc etc.I do recall aligning the armature as to be over flange and the armature between segements but took a little fiddling with and then it came right out just not sure which engines i done that with.

 

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I have taken the wheel off and replaced them without cups or press.  What you want to do is replace the linkage on the gear side if you removed it.  This will retain the relationship of the axles.   After removing the brush plate pull the flanged wheel on the brush plate side that covers the armature.  Repair replace armature.

To re-assemble you want to position the two remaining brush plate side wheels so their drive rod attaching holes are in a horizontal line.  This can be accomplished by rotating the opposite side wheels that should still be geared together.  At this point your removed wheel will press back on its axle with the same orientation as the other two wheels on that side.  Position it by hand and press gently with a vise.  You will probably find that it seeks the correct position because of the swage marks already in the axle hub.

Take your time, your only removing/replacing one wheel. 

Did you test the armature with a ohm meter. Check the resistance between the three plates . All readings should be the same. Then check between the commutator plates and the armature shaft. You should not get any reading there. If it is shorted you will get a very low ohm reading as low as Zero. If these readings check out Clean out the grooves between the armature plates with a toothpick and some alcohol. You should have already done this but didn't mention it. If there is too much gunk between the plates it will short and smoke when you try to run it.

Forest

Chuck Sartor posted:

Unfortunately, the flanged drive wheel must be pulled. It will not wiggle out. 

You are absolutely right.  No matter how much I tried that armature won't come out unless that one flanged driver is pulled.  Frustrating, since i have no experience is pulling and replacing drivers.

rkenney posted:

I have taken the wheel off and replaced them without cups or press.  What you want to do is replace the linkage on the gear side if you removed it.  This will retain the relationship of the axles.   After removing the brush plate pull the flanged wheel on the brush plate side that covers the armature.  Repair replace armature.

To re-assemble you want to position the two remaining brush plate side wheels so their drive rod attaching holes are in a horizontal line.  This can be accomplished by rotating the opposite side wheels that should still be geared together.  At this point your removed wheel will press back on its axle with the same orientation as the other two wheels on that side.  Position it by hand and press gently with a vise.  You will probably find that it seeks the correct position because of the swage marks already in the axle hub.

Take your time, your only removing/replacing one wheel. 

I am going to attempt this but am not overly optimistic about success.  I have a Jeff Kane (The Train Tender) wheel puller but can't figure out how to maneuver the thing onto to the driver because there is a metal bracket attached to the loco's metal frame which is obstructing the attachment of the puller onto the the driver.  This bracket is secured with a metal rod through the frame and the doggone thing won't budge.  I'll keep trying. 

rkenney posted:

Please post some pictures so we can help you further.

Ok, attached is a photo.  You can clearly see a black metal bracket sitting just above the front truck assembly.  It is affixed to the silver metal frame by a rod which is inserted through the frame.  This obstructs me being able to put the puller onto the driver.  Can’t get that rod to budge.image

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Forest posted:

Did you test the armature with a ohm meter. Check the resistance between the three plates . All readings should be the same. Then check between the commutator plates and the armature shaft. You should not get any reading there. If it is shorted you will get a very low ohm reading as low as Zero. If these readings check out Clean out the grooves between the armature plates with a toothpick and some alcohol. You should have already done this but didn't mention it. If there is too much gunk between the plates it will short and smoke when you try to run it.

Forest

Bear with me here as I am no electrician.  Anyway, I initially cleaned out all of the grooves between the commutator segments.  They weren't clogged to begin with.  I also polished up the commutator to a bright shine.  I did the transformer test with two leads and got a good deal of sparking when testing the shaft against the commutator plates.  This would indicate a problem.  When testing the plates against one another I got the sparking which is normal.  According to what I've read the shaft and commutator plate sparking would indicate that the armature is shorted against the shaft.  Anyhow, I'm not positive as to how to use the multimeter for this test.  I know I have to set the OHM meter to its lowest scale.  Do I do this test with or without power to the loco?  In any event without power to the loco the reading between the shaft and all of the commutator plates is one.  The readings between the commutator plates are all one except one plate reads 1.7.  Am I doing this correctly or should I just bag it?  Like I said I'm no electrician.  

The part you say is in the way is the rear truck mounting bracket.  According to the service manual it is held in place with a stud That may need to be driven out with a punch (see diagram).  before I did that I would remove all the other parts that are in the way: truck, side rods, etc  Wheel you want to remove is on the opposite side.  (leave side rods on geared wheels)

1stCapture

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OKHIKER posted:
Forest posted:

Did you test the armature with a ohm meter. Check the resistance between the three plates . All readings should be the same. Then check between the commutator plates and the armature shaft. You should not get any reading there. If it is shorted you will get a very low ohm reading as low as Zero. If these readings check out Clean out the grooves between the armature plates with a toothpick and some alcohol. You should have already done this but didn't mention it. If there is too much gunk between the plates it will short and smoke when you try to run it.

Forest

Bear with me here as I am no electrician.  Anyway, I initially cleaned out all of the grooves between the commutator segments.  They weren't clogged to begin with.  I also polished up the commutator to a bright shine.  I did the transformer test with two leads and got a good deal of sparking when testing the shaft against the commutator plates.  This would indicate a problem.  When testing the plates against one another I got the sparking which is normal.  According to what I've read the shaft and commutator plate sparking would indicate that the armature is shorted against the shaft.  Anyhow, I'm not positive as to how to use the multimeter for this test.  I know I have to set the OHM meter to its lowest scale.  Do I do this test with or without power to the loco?  In any event without power to the loco the reading between the shaft and all of the commutator plates is one.  The readings between the commutator plates are all one except one plate reads 1.7.  Am I doing this correctly or should I just bag it?  Like I said I'm no electrician.  

Looks like you tested right the armature coils are shorted to the frame.  Remove and replace.  Do you have a replacement armature?  Little point in doing disassembly if you don't have the parts to repair.  (Ohmeter test is done without power, just as you did)

rkenney posted:

I would take off the truck and you must remove the rods from that wheel.  Your puller has two jaws or a frame that slides behind the wheel?

I previously removed the front truck as well as all of the linkage and that bracket is still in the way.  There is no way I can slide the puller underneath the driver unless I remove that bracket and the rod attaching it to the frame will not budge. 

rkenney posted:
OKHIKER posted:
Forest posted:

Did you test the armature with a ohm meter. Check the resistance between the three plates . All readings should be the same. Then check between the commutator plates and the armature shaft. You should not get any reading there. If it is shorted you will get a very low ohm reading as low as Zero. If these readings check out Clean out the grooves between the armature plates with a toothpick and some alcohol. You should have already done this but didn't mention it. If there is too much gunk between the plates it will short and smoke when you try to run it.

Forest

Bear with me here as I am no electrician.  Anyway, I initially cleaned out all of the grooves between the commutator segments.  They weren't clogged to begin with.  I also polished up the commutator to a bright shine.  I did the transformer test with two leads and got a good deal of sparking when testing the shaft against the commutator plates.  This would indicate a problem.  When testing the plates against one another I got the sparking which is normal.  According to what I've read the shaft and commutator plate sparking would indicate that the armature is shorted against the shaft.  Anyhow, I'm not positive as to how to use the multimeter for this test.  I know I have to set the OHM meter to its lowest scale.  Do I do this test with or without power to the loco?  In any event without power to the loco the reading between the shaft and all of the commutator plates is one.  The readings between the commutator plates are all one except one plate reads 1.7.  Am I doing this correctly or should I just bag it?  Like I said I'm no electrician.  

Looks like you tested right the armature coils are shorted to the frame.  Remove and replace.  Do you have a replacement armature?  Little point in doing disassembly if you don't have the parts to repair.  (Ohmeter test is done without power, just as you did)

If I can get the armature out I can get a replacement quickly.  Thanks for all of your help.

rkenney posted:

It is possible that the drive stud only goes in one way ( has a shoulder).  If that's the case you could be driving it the wrong direction.  Hard to tell from the drawing.

Finally got it out.  Now for the wheel pulling operation.

rkenney posted:

The puller I use is a plumbers faucet handle puller.  It has two jaws that slide under opposite sides of the wheel.  A little awkward because of its length, but once set up it works great.  Available at HD

I'll have to look into your HD faucet puller 'cause my Train Tender wheel puller which is cast iron will not slide underneath the driver, its just to thick.  Of course, I guess I could file it down so it could slide underneath the driver.  Ain't toy train repair fun.

This is the puller I have ( may be a different brand - if it had adapters they walked years ago).  Ideally it could be a little shorter.  The idea is to get the jaws as far under the wheel as possible (if you just grab the wheel flange it may distort or break.  The puller is cheap enough that you can grind the jaws if needed or modify it.  

husky-fitting-removal-tools-63876-64_1000

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rkenney posted:

This is the puller I have ( may be a different brand - if it had adapters they walked years ago).  Ideally it could be a little shorter.  The idea is to get the jaws as far under the wheel as possible (if you just grab the wheel flange it may distort or break.  The puller is cheap enough that you can grind the jaws if needed or modify it.  

husky-fitting-removal-tools-63876-64_1000

rKenney, you must have been reading my mind as I was Just about to ask you for a picture of your puller.  Thanks a lot.  I'm headed out to Home Depot now.

OKHIKER posted:
bmoran4 posted:

Simply remove the two screws retaining the brush plate and carefully move it aside (wires still attached). The brushes may fall out, so watch for that. The armature can then be slightly rotated and angled up to come right out. No need to remove wheels (hopefully!).

It may help to remove the armature bearing plate on the opposite side of the brush plate to get greater maneuverability.

If you can't get it out, then I would go for extending the gauge of the flanged driver (with out rotating it about the axle preserving the quartering) after removing the side rod on the brush plate side and seeing if that gets you enough space. Later, you can use a vice to lessen the wheel gauge to the proper size. If the wheel comes off the axle, then you are looking at a complicated quartering operation best done with a proper set of wheel cups and arbor press: http://www.hobbyhorseproducts....HorseCatalog2015.pdf

Thanks for the response.  I had already tried what you have suggested regarding maneuvering the armature around so as not to have to remove the wheels but so far without success.  I will continue to try since I really don't want to have to deal with extending/removal and replacement of a driver.  Thanks for your help.  I appreciate it.

Sometimes, bearing plates wear. Depending on engine. It will

let the armature windings hit the metal side frame. 

Forest posted:

Your puller might work on standard gauge, not so much on O.

It's been a while since  I purchased my wheel puller from the Train Tender but if I'm not mistaken I believe it was billed as being able to pull O Gauge wheels.  I don't think I would have bought it if it was billed just for Standard Gauge.  That being said, The Train Tender has been a superb parts supplier for me over the years and I think Jeff Kane is top notch as a vendor so there is no way I would quibble over this purchase.

OKHIKER posted:
Forest posted:

Your puller might work on standard gauge, not so much on O.

It's been a while since  I purchased my wheel puller from the Train Tender but if I'm not mistaken I believe it was billed as being able to pull O Gauge wheels.  I don't think I would have bought it if it was billed just for Standard Gauge.  That being said, The Train Tender has been a superb parts supplier for me over the years and I think Jeff Kane is top notch as a vendor so there is no way I would quibble over this purchase.

I must correct myself.  I went back and checked The Train Tender's parts list and the wheel puller I purchased was for Standard Gauge Wheels and NOT for O Gauge wheels.  My mistake. 

rkenney posted:

This is the puller I have ( may be a different brand - if it had adapters they walked years ago).  Ideally it could be a little shorter.  The idea is to get the jaws as far under the wheel as possible (if you just grab the wheel flange it may distort or break.  The puller is cheap enough that you can grind the jaws if needed or modify it.  

husky-fitting-removal-tools-63876-64_1000

rKenney, very inexpensive at HD at only 10 bucks but the jaws will have to be filed down as they too are to thick for my 2065s wheels.  Nothing is easy.🙄☺️😇

I finally found a puller that works quite easily.  Got it off of E-Bay from a company known as PE Designs.  Not inexpensive but it works great and came with a helpful tip sheet for dealing with wheel pulling problems.  Got the armature out and was able to see where one of the windings had broken off.  Awaiting new armature as I write. 

DougB posted:

Could have used a center punch after putting liquid wrench on the wheel /shaft , hit the shaft several times driving the shaft out of the wheel. 

Now you tell me.  No matter, I needed a good wheel puller anyhow.  After what I have expended on model trains over the past 45 years I don't think this purchase will kill me. 

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