I used to power my four DCS loops through the TIU with 2 PH 180 bricks. Last year I had a MTH local tech convince me to go to  four independent MTH 100 was Z Controllers instead. I confess I do like using the four independent controllers because I can bring the power up slowly on each individual track. He said this is better for the engine...I used to turn my  whole system on with the full 180 watt brick going on full force......he made the argument that  my MTH engines will run better and  be more protected using MTH equipment and was surprised I did not burn out more DCS boards. I'm not electrically  astute  in any way mind you...again he argued that MTH power supplies were engineered to  work with MTH products as opposed to Lionel products...Can anyone weigh in on this? Fact? Fiction? 

MTH recommends against the use of the controllers when feeding inputs of a TIU.  My understanding nis that they arenot compatible with the variable channels.  NJever have tried them with variables set to fixed.

All my four channels are  in fixed mode....

I can attest to a Z4K being quite capable of burning out a DCS board.  It's all amperage & voltage vs. the time for the circuit breaker to react to the over-current.   The previous replies that discuss fast trip times in power bricks are germane.   As to bringing up power slowly, we live in a world where power supplies are binary (on or off) and our electronics survive just fine.

gladstone23 posted:

I used to power my four DCS loops through the TIU with 2 PH 180 bricks. Last year I had a MTH local tech convince me to go to  four independent MTH 100 was Z Controllers instead. I confess I do like using the four independent controllers because I can bring the power up slowly on each individual track. He said this is better for the engine...I used to turn my  whole system on with the full 180 watt brick going on full force......he made the argument that  my MTH engines will run better and  be more protected using MTH equipment and was surprised I did not burn out more DCS boards. I'm not electrically  astute  in any way mind you...again he argued that MTH power supplies were engineered to  work with MTH products as opposed to Lionel products...Can anyone weigh in on this? Fact? Fiction? 

That is a load of something smelly IMO.  First off, sending the chopped waveform into the TIU isn't the optimum solution.  Second, the Z-1000 has a decidedly inferior breaker to the excellent electronically controlled breaker on the PH180 bricks.  If you use the Z-1000 with it, I strongly recommend you add circuit protection between the transformer and the TIU.  I think your local tech needs a bit of electronic education.

Intersting John...thank you for the response...so... in your opinion,  is it ok for me to go back to using the 180 bricks?   Is is OK to turn  everything on  " full strength" with my engines on the track and then start them up with DCS?  That is what he was trying to tell me is  not too good to do I believe... to reiterate...I feed the 180 bricks directly into the TIU

It's not a problem at all, and if I were picking between the two solutions, it would be an easy choice.  Wait!  I did pick between the two solutions, and I picked a pair of PH180 bricks to power my TIU!

I have to rethink  using this local technician ! LOL

I did use the bricks for many years as my kids were growing up with no issues really...and you know how kids can be with trains...constantly crashing them  tripping the breakers...and I never lost anything....las t year he told me to change everything...any way...thank you for taking the time to post! :-)

It's obviously still possible to experience electronic failures, even with a "perfect" circuit breaker.  However, I like the fact that the PH180 has a very fast and intelligent breaker and has minimal nuisance trips.  It actually has dual mode sensing, if it's an immediate spike to an overload, it'll trip very fast.  OTOH, if it's a slow ramp up to an overload, there is a longer delay to allow for momentary loads like grades and the like.  All in all, a pretty clever design.

I am using a single PH180 (replacing a postwar ZW) brick to power two TIU variable channels set to fixed, which means they power up the tracks immediately when 120-volt switch is turned on.  2-3 seconds after that power up, all locos in my yards click.   Been this way for a couple of years and haven't had a problem yet.  The breaker is fast; maybe too fast, as a wheel flange brushing the center rail on a switch will pop it.

I agree with GRJ, that the PH180 is the best way to go, unless you want to use a Z4000 receiver to remotely vary output of a Z4000 connected to fixed terminals.

Having said that, Lionel changed the manufacturer of the PH180, and I will express no opinion as to the quality of the current PH180 compared to the one from a few years past.

My head hurts after trying to read and understand all this information.

I think I am going to toss my power supplies out in the dumpster and just go back to pushing my trains around by hand.

Paul 

Gentlemen,

   You loose a lot of different variables using any brick, I use 3 Z4K's each has a side receiver.  I would need a Basket of Bricks to do what the Z4K's with Side Receivers are capable of doing, and still not match the full capabilities of the Z4K's.

Use the Z1000 Transformer or Brick on a small layout as it was intended, use the Z4K with Side Receiver and the 10 Amp Resettable Breakers on the larger layouts, and forget the bricks.  Woody has one (Z4K) for sale right now in the OGR for sale section, see if you can get him down to $300.00 and you got a great buy, then of course find a Side Receiver on the Net to go with it.

The only good thing about one of the Bricks, the older Lionel 180, is the fast blowing breaker, I give Guns credit, that it is a good piece of engineering.  If you must own a Brick for some unknown Engineering reason, make it that one.

If you do not want to use the Z4K's use the ZW-L better yet run a couple of each.

PCRR/Dave

See the little black boxes at left side feet of each of the Z4K's, no Brick can match what they do, for the running of your old Conventional Engines.  Conventional Engines run seriously smooth thru the TR function, from the DCS HHRC, because of the Z4K Transformer. IMO if you have the Bricks sell them to Guns, and get a couple Z4K's with the great Side Receivers, forget multiple Z1000's Transformers or the 1000 Bricks on anything but a small beginner type layout also.  Use the KW's for the Bumper Car and Conventional Street Car layouts. In reality there is really not much of a good Engineering reason, to ever own a Brick of any kind.

Trouble is, Dave, that the little black boxes aren't readily available.  The ZW-L is awfully expensive.

Crux of the issue is whether or not you want to run conventional.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

gladstone23 posted:

I used to power my four DCS loops through the TIU with 2 PH 180 bricks. Last year I had a MTH local tech convince me to go to  four independent MTH 100 was Z Controllers instead. I confess I do like using the four independent controllers because I can bring the power up slowly on each individual track. He said this is better for the engine...I used to turn my  whole system on with the full 180 watt brick going on full force......he made the argument that  my MTH engines will run better and  be more protected using MTH equipment and was surprised I did not burn out more DCS boards. I'm not electrically  astute  in any way mind you...again he argued that MTH power supplies were engineered to  work with MTH products as opposed to Lionel products...Can anyone weigh in on this? Fact? Fiction? 

That is a load of something smelly IMO.  First off, sending the chopped waveform into the TIU isn't the optimum solution.  Second, the Z-1000 has a decidedly inferior breaker to the excellent electronically controlled breaker on the PH180 bricks.  If you use the Z-1000 with it, I strongly recommend you add circuit protection between the transformer and the TIU.  I think your local tech needs a bit of electronic education.

This is the advice that I took...

I see what PCRR/DAVE is saying but I have to to side with RJR on this one.  The z4k remote receivers are not in production and will soon be hard to find. Also those receivers are not compatible with the MTH WIU, you can only run them with the z4k remote or the DCS remote. The z4k remote is no longer in production and the DCS remote will also become harder to find in the future.

A couple of PH180 bricks plugged into the VAR1 & VAR2 of the TIU will achieve the same thing as a single Z4000 with the remote receiver and a HHRC.  You also get the added benefit of having conventional control from the WIU & App if you go that route. 

I would like to see a redesign of the Z4000. It was great before the days of DCS, pretty good after the release of DCS, but has PS1 features from long ago that go unused and clutter up the interface.

For those interested in conventional only operation, Z4000s are still a great way to go. For those in a command only environment, not so much.  For those of us who run both enviroments with a TIU, get the bricks and use the TIU's variable channels for conventional operation.

H1000,

   I never intend to run my trains from a WiFi or an app of any kind.  IMO running from an App is just a bunch of foolishness, a fad that will fade in a few years.  I do believe you will be able to purchase the HHRC and that MTH will eventually make a new even better rechargeable model, once this app craz has faded into obsecurity.  The side receiver is still around on the Net to purchase, it may however never be in the MTH inventory ever again, a very bad management decision by MTH.

Further using the App you can only get 1/2 the TR functions you do with the Side Receiver, so saying it has exactly the same ability is not even close to reality.

Just ask RJR what he's really running on his own layout, and see what he says.

PCRR/Dave

When the day comes that I can not run my DCS P2/P3 engines from a HHRC, I will be running my Legacy Engines, from a Cab4 or 5, and all my MTH DCS stuff will be sold, or run in conventional mode.  I did not invest in DCS to play with WiFi and Apps..

Still doesn't change the fact that MTH doesn't make the z4k receiver anymore.

TIU + HHRC (or WIU with APP) + 2 PH180 bricks = Z4000 + HHRC + z4k Receiver
Two ways to achieve the same goal.

"once this app craz has faded into obsecurity"

That's what they said about telephones, automobiles, airplanes, radio, computers, the internet, online shopping, cell phones, smart phones.... This list can go on for days.

Unfortunately Dave, we don't dictate what is popular, Apple, Google, Samsung, and people with money to buy the latest tech gadgets do. Kind of sad reality we live in.

H1000,

   Somebody will just invent something even better than Apps, me I am a hands on O Gauge Train runner who want to run his trains from a HHRC in my own home, believe me the majority of runners old and young are just like me. 

I agree there will be more and better Transformers made for our O Gauge Trains, I do believe Lionel will use the Cab type remote control with wireless switches and in reality MTH needs to develop the same Engineering Technology for their DCS, instead of having jumped on to the fad wagon with Apps and WiFi.  Which IMO will fade once newer technology is developed.

PCRR/Dave

Further using the App you can only get 1/2 the TR functions you do with the Side Receiver, so saying it has exactly the same ability is not even close to reality.

As I understand it, the only functions missing are related to operating PS1 engines. The z4k receiver does lack features to operate functions of PS2 & PS3 engines while in conventional mode that are exclusive to the app.

You'll never hand a CAB remote or DCS remote to a 12 year old and convince him it is better than the smart phone in his pocket for operating a train set. By your standards the HHRC is the best and that's fine for you. But MTH has to be forward thinking and eventually cut the cord to products that will hold them back from a generation with disposable income.

H1000,

  Having both in the inventory is not holding anything back, it's just good sold business management.  Sell whatever is demanded, don't eliminate it from your business plan, when it's already in your engineering and sales inventory.

Now when it finally becomes obsolete that is a different matter.  Parts should be available for at least 10 years however.  O Gauge trains are not throw away technology like the phones in young and old peoples pockets.  O Gauge Trains are engineered to be passed down thru the family for generations. At least they were!

PCRR/Dave

Tin Plate Trains the Real Stuff!

Dave, I gather that you are of the opinion that the brilliant minds at GE who sold off the profit-making appliance, illumination, and finance divisions, because profit margins were less in those divisions, were wrong.  How could you think that you know better than them?

But you are right!

H1000, my 12-year old grandson wants nothing to do with the app.  Having tried it, he insisted he wanted the remote.  His 10-year old sister agrees with him.

RJR,

   I was right when I advised the President of Westinghouse East Pittsburgh that selling those divisions types as GE was doing also, in the long run would be a big mistake.   I was correct in that business management decision also, Westinghouse & GE made a real big mistake, costing them Billions in the long run of the Corporations over all value.  

Just remember what your Grand kids told you, some new engineering will take the Apps place, however it will be nice for a short run.

PCRR/Dave

You sure you don't mean someone else's kids?

RJR,

Correction made ( Grand Kids)

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Having both in the inventory is not holding anything back, it's just good sold business management.  Sell whatever is demanded, don't eliminate it from your business plan, when it's already in your engineering and sales inventory.

Dave, I have a 1999 GMC Yukon, it's a great truck, served me well over the years, I still have it and runs awesome. I've told the local dealer that if they could still sell trucks exactly like mine, I buy a brand new every year. He just laughs, and says we wouldn't be in business to sell you one every year. It becomes a matter of product evolution. If you keep selling the same thing over and over again it becomes who you are. MTH wants to be known for DCS being an evolutionary train operating system that can adapt with changing & trending technology.

From a production stand point the DCS remote is expensive to maintain, and the software is difficult to upgrade. The remote itself is limited by the buttons on it which hinders it's ability to add usable new features (Quillable Whistle). The cost MTH has to keep the app available is $100 per year (annual apple developer fee), to maintain the DCS remote would cost considerably more. Maybe smart phones and app will fade away but they will be replaced with something ever newer and MTH will again have to evolve with the demand. 

Maintaining inventory is expensive. Software costs less than hardware.

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Now when it finally becomes obsolete that is a different matter.  Parts should be available for at least 10 years however.  O Gauge trains are not throw away technology like the phones in young and old peoples pockets.  O Gauge Trains are engineered to be passed down thru the family for generations. At least they were!

If MTH has it's way, DCS will never become obsolete. Weather it run by a HHRC, and App, Voice Command or by blinking your eyes, DCS is here to stay. I have PS2 engines from 2000 that still work with DCS technology that cam out last year (DCS Explorer).  I'd say any DCS engine can be passed down, and our great grandchildren can run them with whatever control method has replaced the app without having to hope that a 60 year HHRC still works.

My nearly 20 year old truck isn't obsolete and never will be, in fact parts are plentiful for it if & when I need them.  But why won't they keep making that exact same reliable truck model? Mine has 358,000 miles and keeps on rolling, with a track record like that it makes sense to keep producing it right? Yet they don't. I think they know something that we don't....

Out with old and in with new is happening everywhere and in every industry, you may not like it, but it is driven by public demand.

RJR posted:

H1000, my 12-year old grandson wants nothing to do with the app.  Having tried it, he insisted he wanted the remote.  His 10-year old sister agrees with him.

That fines, you are the (less than) 1%. Go to any sixth grade class in a public school and see how many kids don't have access to a smart phone. I have three nephews (9, 12, & 14) that can't stand any of the remotes, and want to use the apps. The remotes used on our kids layout go over well for about 5 minutes per child then they want the tablet and then usually stick around for another 15 to 20 minutes and many times longer.

This seen from Back to the Future 2 is almost spot on:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMy1zO8m8sM

Go to any 6th grade class and ask how many kids have and use a train set.

Ask them how many would rather use their phone or a remote to run this cool train set.

"I get to use my phone to run that train!"

or

"Oh, it has a remote, just like most other RC toys..."

The remotes used on our kids layout go over well for about 5 minutes per child then they want the tablet and then usually stick around for another 15 to 20 minutes and many times longer.

Gentlemen,

   My point was that all the different technology should still be available from both MTH and Lionel, as RJR indicated how many kids in a 6th grade class today actually have an O Gauge Train.  I go one further and ask how many have an O Gauge Train that is not a hand me down from Dad & Mom.  Again cost can be a real big factor on what is being purchased as a child's play toy.  However mobile phones are costly today and every kid seems to have one.

IMO letting a young child have a mobile phone is a foolish and costly error by the parents, and of course the schools letting kids bring mobile phones into school with them is completely insane, unless that child has a true medical problem.  It feeds the drug culture in our schools, and furthers the cheating on exams via texting.

PCRR/Dave

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Gentlemen,

   My point was that all the different technology should still be available from both MTH and Lionel, as RJR indicated how many kids in a 6th grade class today actually have an O Gauge Train.  I go one further and ask how many have an O Gauge Train that is not a hand me down from Dad & Mom.  Again cost can be a real big factor on what is being purchased as a child's play toy.  However mobile phones are costly today and every kid seems to have one.

IMO letting a young child have a mobile phone is a foolish and costly error by the parents, and of course the schools letting kids bring mobile phones into school with them is completely insane, unless that child has a true medical problem.  It feeds the drug culture in our schools, and furthers the cheating on exams via texting.

PCRR/Dave

Nobody's suggesting you go out a get a cell contract for a kid to do this.

And phones are cheap - for this application.

You just want the phone/tablet device, and the app - which in most cases...is not connected to the internet while running trains.

The phone/tablet should be dedicated to running trains and be considered part of your train gear - and that's where it stays.

Roving Sign posted:

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Gentlemen,

   My point was that all the different technology should still be available from both MTH and Lionel, as RJR indicated how many kids in a 6th grade class today actually have an O Gauge Train.  I go one further and ask how many have an O Gauge Train that is not a hand me down from Dad & Mom.  Again cost can be a real big factor on what is being purchased as a child's play toy.  However mobile phones are costly today and every kid seems to have one.

IMO letting a young child have a mobile phone is a foolish and costly error by the parents, and of course the schools letting kids bring mobile phones into school with them is completely insane, unless that child has a true medical problem.  It feeds the drug culture in our schools, and furthers the cheating on exams via texting.

PCRR/Dave

Nobody's suggesting you go out a get a cell contract for a kid to do this.

And phones are cheap - for this application.

You just want the phone/tablet device, and the app - which in most cases...is not connected to the internet while running trains.

The phone/tablet should be dedicated to running trains and be considered part of your train gear - and that's where it stays.

Agreed.

I have an old phone (no longer connected to any cell provider) and two tablets that i can run the layout with. These three devices with a WIU cost me less than $200. Three DCS remotes would cost me a lot more.

Texting? what's that? Texting is slow and boring, hello "Snap-chat".

I know where Dave is going with this, I too think it is a concern of how addicted to technology is getting to kids (and some adults). In fact there is petition floating around to proposition these tech companies to curtail their behavior of making these devices so addictive to kids. Almost like cigarettes, scary. But pulling a prohibition style reverse on tech is not the way to solve the problem. It boils down to some basic parenting and setting limits. Tech is okay in moderation and parents need to regulate this. Using a tablet to run a train set is far more interactive than using that tablet to play a game for hours on end.

My kids can use the tablets for operating trains, and that's about all those tablets can do. They don't have internet access, and the trains apps are the only usable apps installed on them.

Roving Sign,

   Now that is a great idea, and changes things considerably, however H1000 is correct the parents need to supervise any kind technology their kids are subjected to.  The companies selling this junk are never going to stop trying to addict the children to the technology, no matter how dangerous it is,  it's how they make their money.  

Notice how when there was actual proof that cell phones did harm to a human when carried for long periods of time near the body, how that study faded away.  Even when the proof was right there, that it was happening.   I am not saying the government needs to step in, the parents need to supervise and control their own children's education, in all instances.  Technology is only one of those cases.  

Part of the problem is our public schools and how they have accepted universally educating our children, with the use of the latest technology.  Lots of children can not function without their cell phones and computers.  Actual thought process for math, science, history and language have been pushed to the back ground and technology has taken it's place in many cases.

PCRR/Dave  

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Actual thought process for math, science, history and language have been pushed to the back ground and technology has taken it's place in many cases.

This is so true!!  I believe that Technology should work hand in hand with the fundamentals but not replace them! Kids need to learn those basics on there own before letting technology assist them with the work. It surprises me how many can't read clocks, maps or do basic math without a calculator.

This is also one of the reasons I like the train apps. It is an interactive app that ties into real world applications. Look at how we use touch screen devices to assist us with everyday jobs especially in the heavy equipment industry. Precision Farming, Materiel handling, equipment storage and retrieval just to name a few.

But Dave also points out how many absolutely useless and time wasting apps exist just lead our youth to nowhere. I don't mind if my kids play on the tablet, but I limit the amount of time they are allowed, and also like to match that time with some kind of outdoor activity.

Dave,

Notice how when there was actual proof that cell phones did harm to a human when carried for long periods of time near the body, how that study faded away.

That's because there was no "actual proof" and it was completely unsubstantiated.

Barry is on to something.   Here's a unbiased look at the issue.

Cell Phones and Cancer Risk

Three large epidemiologic studies have examined the possible association between cell phone use and cancer: Interphone, a case-control study; the Danish Study, a cohort study; and the Million Women Study, another cohort study.

• Interphone

  How the study was done: This is the largest health-related case-control study of cell phone use and the risk of head and neck tumors. It was conducted by a consortium of researchers from 13 countries. The data came from questionnaires that were completed by study participants.

  What the study showed: Most published analyses from this study have shown no statistically significant increases in brain or central nervous system cancers related to higher amounts of cell phone use. One analysis showed a statistically significant, although modest, increase in the risk of glioma among the small proportion of study participants who spent the most total time on cell phone calls. However, the researchers considered this finding inconclusive because they felt that the amount of use reported by some respondents was unlikely and because the participants who reported lower levels of use appeared to have a slightly reduced risk of brain cancer compared with people who did not use cell phones regularly. Another recent analysis from this study found no relationship between brain tumor locations and regions of the brain that were exposed to the highest level of radiofrequency energy from cell phones.

• Danish Study

  How the study was done: This cohort study, conducted in Denmark, linked billing information from more than 358,000 cell phone subscribers with brain tumor incidence data from the Danish Cancer Registry.

  What the study showed: No association was observed between cell phone use and the incidence of glioma, meningioma, or acoustic neuroma, even among people who had been cell phone subscribers for 13 or more years.

• Million Women Study

  How the study was done: This prospective cohort study conducted in the United Kingdom used data obtained from questionnaires that were completed by study participants.

  What the study showed: Self-reported cell phone use was not associated with an increased risk of glioma, meningioma, or non-central nervous system tumors. Although the original published findings reported an association with an increased risk of acoustic neuroma, this association disappeared after additional follow-up of the cohort.

Several years ago I read a article in TIME magazine on a study on cell phones relationship to brain tumors. After several pages of reading, the only finding was proof that cell phones excite the cells in the brain on the side of the head that the phone is being held against and increases the temperature of the ear and face during longer conversations. There was no way for them to tell if the cell excitement caused any harm to the brain. I can also add, after a bout with chest pains, test showed no problems with my heart. During a follow up visit the doctor noticed I carried my cell phone in my left shirt pocket. I always did because I don't like sitting on it. He demanded I refrain from carrying it there and said it may be the possible cause of the pain. I took his advise and sure enough the pains went away and never came back. Funny how these post sometime get side tracked but are still so educational. 

Gentlemen,

   Good conversation!  

Dave Z,

   This is exactly what I was talking about, not the cancer scare.  I was told the exact same thing by my doctor, I do not carry my cell phone in my breast pocket very often.

PCRR/Dave

I love how a conversation can take twists and turns as it progresses.  

Dave, because of conversation twists and turns, I didn't get to tell you at "brunch" (You had breakfast, Bob and I had lunch) that I am running one Z4000 and am glad I snatched up the Z4K receiver from another Forum member when I did.  It does work slick!!  Not that I have many conventional locomotives, but it is nice.

Yes, I like the digital ammeters and voltmeters on the Z4000 over none on bricks.  Of course, I have been working in the electronics field for 42 years, so that may have something to do with it.  

Mark,

   Thanks much for meeting me for Brunch at Eaten Park, you me and Bob had a very nice time, and great Train Conversation.   

I have been telling people about the Z4K side receiver for many years, do me a favor and keep an eye out for another one.  Mike G would like to have one now also.  I will make sure you get your purchase money back if you happen to find one before I do.

Bob supplied me with all the MTH Terminal Blocks for the rest of my Train Room Construction.  We will all have to meet for Brunch again some time in the near future.

All the best

PCRR/Dave

Those little Black Z4K Receiver Boxes are great stuff!

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

Mark,

   Thanks much for meeting me for Brunch at Eaten Park, you me and Bob had a very nice time, and great Train Conversation.   

I have been telling people about the Z4K side receiver for many years, do me a favor and keep an eye out for another one.  Mike G would like to have one now also.  I will make sure you get your purchase money back if you happen to find one before I do.

Bob supplied me with all the MTH Terminal Blocks for the rest of my Train Room Construction.  We will all have to meet for Brunch again some time in the near future.

All the best

PCRR/Dave

Those little Black Z4K Receiver Boxes are great stuff!

Dave, sure sounds like you had a fun day! Thanks for passing the word about a side receiver for me.

Mike G,

   We will find one some where!

PCRR/Dave

Dave, I was glad to meet you and talk trains!

Mike, I’ll keep an eye and ear open.  I’ll buy one right away if I locate one!

Thanks Mark, I envy you for getting the chance to meet Dave! 

You’re welcome, Mike!

Yes, Dave is a really enthusiastic train guy!

Mark and Mike G,

   Thank you gentlemen for the kind words, it was my pleasure to meet both Mark and Bob.   Mike I wish you could have been at Brunch with us also.  Thought I almost had a side receiver for you Mike the other night, however when I reached the sale sight, the side receiver was all ready sold.  They are going very quickly when they come up for sale.

PCRR/Dave

Dave, I know, I have been searching for one and cant even find one for sale! But I keep looking!