Another one Bites the dust

Bummer.

don't send them back. They'll never admit it, or blame you, or maybe....?

crumbling, poor rolling trucks??? | O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum (ogaugerr.com)

Part of the hobby I'm told.

BluelineC4, As DMASSO said that's a real bummer.

Ben , did you buys those at Dauzers on Dekalb Ave for 4.95, maybe they need a drop of oil LOL 😂

Glad you have the replacement frames  

Alex

Sheesh. It sure seems like Atlas is the leader in disintegrating trains.

I wonder if their H.O. stuff crumbles too. Sure would be easier to clean up.

I have a K line RS3 that the battery/ speaker cover completely disintegrated. That’s when I was educated about the zinc rot thing. It’ll be interesting to find out in the end just how many products were produced with this issue.

Same thing happened to me with some H21 hoppers recently. Unfortunately Atlas didn’t have any replacement frames anymore for a H21 hoppers

Don and Jim  It definitely is a bummer  I can barely keep the lights on spending so much on parts

Joe  Our problem was leaving them packed so long that we didnt realize they are junk

Alex  I dont care if you dipped them in Texas they are junk

RickO  You wont see it in HO because there isnt as much die cast in that scale

OBXtrainman    There are definitely a gaggle of products   The absolute worst one is the MTH P5 Box cab  A $500 hunk of cracks

MR-150  The H21 hopper has a different type of frame   There are two pieces  One on each end over the trucks and you may be in luck as I think I have a few stashed away somewhere  I will look for them and let you know

It took me a while to find those hoppers in Rutland. 3 out of the 5 I found were bad. New in the box. 2 just had the truck mount broke off. I was able to repair them. One was beyond hope. The 2 that were perfect had the same rd. Number.  I’ve had a couple others and went to Atlas’ archives and found they were all built in the same run in the mid 2000’s.

@obxtrainman posted:

I have a K line RS3 that the battery/ speaker cover completely disintegrated. That’s when I was educated about the zinc rot thing. It’ll be interesting to find out in the end just how many products were produced with this issue.

"In the end"...?  I'm afraid zinc rot, zinc pest, ...whatever name you choose...will never "end".  At least not as long as the products are made far, far away, without metallurgical analysis/control/concern, in a land of dynamic labor and sourcing.  It's not a guaranteed certainty, but it is so widespread among manufacturers in that environment that the odds are sometimes rather dismal that you'll just be lucky in your purchase to have avoided it...sooner or later.

"How many products were produced with this issue"??...If it's die cast from that land far, far away, it could easily find its way into your whatever treasure...rolling stock, freight or passenger, locomotives (diesel, steam, electric), accessories, ...you name it.

Zinc pest, as it's commonly called, was the bane of some Pre-War Lionel in-house production until the metallurgical anomaly was identified and corrected.   Dad's 1835E tender, ca mid-1930's, got bit...badly. (I've shown the photos in prior threads.)  Lionel stepped up and provided a pest-free replacement wiki-wiki.  Then 'the pest' seemed to disappear as an issue in this hobby...until we became obsessed with having our choo-choos made in that land far, far away.  No experience, no knowledge(?), no control,...no care..., pretty certain what happened thereafter.   The other exciting characteristic is that sometimes it manifests itself within the warranty period, but sometimes not until long after.  Oh joy.

Want more on this issue as it affects us all?.....search the Forum on "Zinc Pest".  Keep the aspirin and vino handy, pal.

3D printed replacements ?

Mr. BluelineC4,

Although I am not a fan of yours since you recently called my friend Alex M. a bum, in the interests of friendship, I bet my friend Ben Fiorello can fix your zinc pest rot problem. He is a smart and talented guy who I know bought extra replacement frames for just this sort of situation. In my opinion, Atlas should step up to the plate and take care of your problem.

Let me know if you would like Ben to help you.
Erol

Ben,

I would be happy to buy you a beer at the next York since you are spending so much on parts to reduce some of your costs.

Erol

I would have hit the "dislike" button on this thread if there was one because, well, it really stinks to read this.  Sorry Ben.

My stomach turns every time I read another thread about zinc pest.  It makes me think about how many freight cars I have stored away that haven't been examined since I originally purchased them.

Atlas--and all the other manufacturers/importers--should stand behind every single one of these items.  Why?  Because they're all very aware of the zinc pest issue yet they continue to pump products into the market produced with this low-quality "metal".

A big "thumbs down" if you ask me!

I got a prewar Lionel signal, and it had a lot of, and I assume zinc cracking. But still together. I decided to coat every crack with super glue. when dried you can't tell the glue is their...

has anybody ever tried that and  found out it either it worked or didn't? 

Queen

Has anyone ever seen a Lionel 18" Super Chief set that the truck frames haven't crumbled?

@RickO posted:

Sheesh. It sure seems like Atlas is the leader in disintegrating trains.

I wonder if their H.O. stuff crumbles too. Sure would be easier to clean up.

All of the manufacturers have pesty stuff out there. I have Williams with trucks, side frames, pilots that had it. I have a premier Veranda with both smoke units that have it and a gondola that had pesty trucks. I had K-Line freight cars with pesty trucks and wheelsets and a loco with bad wheels.

Most smaller scales use plastic so they don't have this issue. I have lots of N-scale stuff, lots by Atlas, and I don't have this issue with any of it. I wish O-gauge manufacturers would use plastic on their stuff so the O-gauge community wouldn't have to deal with this issue any longer.

This topic comes up a couple of times a year and it doesn't have to be like this.

Ben, I agree, Bummer!!

I think I'm glad I sold my Atlas hoppers, because they were so heavy on my steep grades.  Maybe mine were made later than yours.  Now I am wondering if the problem will show up on my Steam Era Classics boxcars.  I'm afraid to look! 

@Mark Boyce posted:

Ben, I agree, Bummer!!

I think I'm glad I sold my Atlas hoppers, because they were so heavy on my steep grades.  Maybe mine were made later than yours.  Now I am wondering if the problem will show up on my Steam Era Classics boxcars.  I'm afraid to look! 

I've got three Atlas O USRA steel rebuilt boxcars. I've had them for a couple years without issue.

@Lou1985 posted:

I've got three Atlas O USRA steel rebuilt boxcars. I've had them for a couple years without issue.

I have 60 55 ton Hoppers and 40 h21 hoppers. I have had 12 so far go bad. 8 55 tonners and 4 h21.   It’s not the model but the year produced that has the problem.   I have seen it on ps1 box cars and reefers too.  All made between 2005 and 2007

@bluelinec4 posted:

I have 60 55 ton Hoppers and 40 h21 hoppers. I have had 12 so far go bad. 8 55 tonners and 4 h21.   It’s not the model but the year produced that has the problem.   I have seen it on ps1 box cars and reefers too.  All made between 2005 and 2007

Yeah my stuff is newer. Made in the last 5 years or so.

I think mine are newer also; unless they sat on the store shelves a while.

"I would have hit the "dislike" button on this thread if there was one because, well, it really stinks to read this.  Sorry Ben."  I hit the like button because I thought it was good you were sharing the issue then changed my mind because there is nothing to like about expensive, "top of the line" merchandise falling apart due to manufacturing flaws or defects.

"No experience, no knowledge(?), no control,...no care...,"   Quality control isn't just looking at one in a thousand of the finished product as it is slid into it's packaging, it should include materials making the parts that make the assemblies that are assembled in a proper fashion to provide a finished product free of blemishes and defects that functions as intended and designed.  We all know that this doesn't exist in todays world yet we are forced to pay premium prices for products that may or may not work and may be damaged right out of the box.

Ben I truly feel bad that you are subjected to this and have to anticipate the potential that it will eventually happen to the remaining 48.

Personally, my experience with this has been hit and miss with the Lionel Standard O trucks.  It’s upsetting to sell one and have the buyer report that they fell apart in shipping.
Alan

@coach joe posted:

"I would have hit the "dislike" button on this thread if there was one because, well, it really stinks to read this.  Sorry Ben."  I hit the like button because I thought it was good you were sharing the issue then changed my mind because there is nothing to like about expensive, "top of the line" merchandise falling apart due to manufacturing flaws or defects.

Coach Joe, I did the exact same thing!  I first hit the Like button, but the more I thought about it, I couldn’t bring myself to “like” a thread about this recurring product quality issue!

It's simply criminal that the various model train manufacturers charge an arm and a leg for their product and then to see it literally disintegrate before your very eyes.     

I would recommend a simple boycott of their products until issues like this are addressed.

Who needs a set of $60 - $85 dollar boxcars or hoppers without a frame or a set of trucks?! 

To avoid a shark attack, stay out of the water(*).

To avoid the pest, do not use zinc.

Why is Zinc still being used in trains?

(*) SURVIVOR TV seriets Survivor handbook.

@Dominic Mazoch posted:

Why is Zinc still being used in trains?

Because some still view it as a hallmark of a quality item. I haven't read anything to support this reasoning. The interesting thing is that everyone complains about "pot metal" in everything else, including cheap household items, but gladly pay top dollar for it in a high priced model train.

@coach joe posted:

"I would have hit the "dislike" button on this thread if there was one because, well, it really stinks to read this.  Sorry Ben."  I hit the like button because I thought it was good you were sharing the issue then changed my mind because there is nothing to like about expensive, "top of the line" merchandise falling apart due to manufacturing flaws or defects.

"No experience, no knowledge(?), no control,...no care...,"   Quality control isn't just looking at one in a thousand of the finished product as it is slid into it's packaging, it should include materials making the parts that make the assemblies that are assembled in a proper fashion to provide a finished product free of blemishes and defects that functions as intended and designed.  We all know that this doesn't exist in todays world yet we are forced to pay premium prices for products that may or may not work and may be damaged right out of the box.

Ben I truly feel bad that you are subjected to this and have to anticipate the potential that it will eventually happen to the remaining 48.

You basically hit the nail on the head, quality isn't about inspections, those only catch the most glaring of problems. Back in the 'good old days' of GM and the other US manufacturers, they spent 50% of their time rebuilding cars coming off the assembly lines (and a lot of floor space) because of poor quality control and then in the field, well, there is a reason they gained the reputation they had. The problem is that for many products the manufacturing has gone backwards and it shows in the quality of many mass produced products done for 'cheapest price, always'.

With the trains we are buying they are sourcing components from the cheapest source (likely in China), the chips and boards are made and assembled there, and it is kind of like the old auto industry (dead now around 25 years). If the part can be used to assemble the train, they use it, if the board plugs into the harness, they put it in there. If a part doesn't fit, it goes into a bin or dumpster. If the engine starts up on being powered up, lights up, passes basic checks, it is done.  If a truck already showed signs on Zinc pest, it would go into the garbage, no one asks why it is like that from the vendor. If they get a lot of bad parts, they refuse to pay the vendor, they ship them new ones.

I am sure they are checked out when they get here, too, and I am sure some of them are fixed and repaired because screws fell out, etc. The real problem with this kind of thing is you end up with marginal parts that fail fast, that can't be found this way.

Really the only difference between the trains we are buying and the cheap mass produced stuff you buy at Walmart is likely the profit margin, that cheap fry pan is made in the millions so if they make 1 buck on each, that Lionel Engine sells in the thousands so the profit margin is a lot higher/unit (Just to throw a number out there, a 2000 grand engine might cost them 800 to produce hypothetically).

Other makers of high end products use lean production and quality techniques, for example Apple when producing its phones and tablets and such, so the quality is higher there for a comparable priced product (and yes, the margins on those items is large, too, last I checked the prod cost on a an Apple Phone was like around 200 bucks).

And basically it is what it is, not likely to change because it is the dynamic of this market.

@Mike D posted:

Most smaller scales use plastic so they don't have this issue. I have lots of N-scale stuff, lots by Atlas, and I don't have this issue with any of it. I wish O-gauge manufacturers would use plastic on their stuff so the O-gauge community wouldn't have to deal with this issue any longer.

Uh, yeah, Mike, let’s see, I have more than 200 locomotives and more than 500 pieces of rolling stock in N scale, including diecast steam and diesel engines from:

Arnold Rapido (USRA Pacific, 1960s),

Arnold (S2 diesel switcher, 1980s),

Minitrix (0-6-0 based on the Pennsy B6, 1970s)

Roco (BR80 0-6-0T steam switcher, 1980s)

Rivarossi (the B&O C-16a marketed simply as an 0-4-0 for Atlas),

Roundhouse Products (2-8-0, 1980s)

Graham Farish (six steamers and the Class 08 diesel shunter, all from the 1970s to 1990s),

Model Power (4-6-2, 4-4-0 steamers and FP7 diesel circa 2000-2005),

Atlas (the two-truck shay and the mid-19th-century American, both since 2000),

Bachmann (including its original 1970s, loosely modeled A5 0-4-0 switcher, diecast reissue of formerly cheap plastic steamer J-class, and recent models of the K4 Pacific, J3a Hudson and the Pere Marquette 1225 Berkshire, plus the 4-6-0 steamer identical to its Williams model),

Broadway Limited (heavy Mikado and light Pacific). A diecast Big Boy is coming this fall.

That’s 23 of my 49 steamers.

In addition, all of my steamers and almost all of my diesels have diecast frames, as do more than half of my freight cars.

Zinc pest problems I have had in N scale? Zero.

Number of broken, warped or heat damaged plastic models over the years? About a dozen.

There are many more N scale diecast steamers I haven’t bought as manufacturers increase the volume of diecast models for an appreciative market.

O gauge manufacturers are having Chinese subcontractor supply problems with inferior zinc alloy castings. There is no question about it. All of this has been covered on the forum. China seemingly could care less to correct this problem, and American manufacturers are either too tolerant or too complicit.

Now, name one steam or diesel body shell, the work of the main contractors, that has succumbed to zinc pest in the past 30 years.

Now name all the diecast castings in O gauge in the postwar era that have had no problem with zinc pest. Go ahead, I’ll wait for the book-length entries for you to compile.

Plastic replaced diecast in smaller scales because it was a cheaper material, both from a tooling perspective (tooling used for die casting doesn’t last as long) and a materials standpoint. The plastics industry lobbied long and hard to expand itself and succeeded. Manufacturers are figuring out that zinc castings done right are superior.

Arguing for plastic over diecast in O gauge. Yeah, that’s been talked about on the forum, too. Got a thumbs down from most.

Jim, you seem to be the most vocal proponent of zincs superiority, yet you fail to provide a valid argument as to why it is superior to plastic. There is nothing inherently superior about that material. None. It adds nothing that plastic doesn't add except perhaps weight. Who cares if it's done right or not. It adds nothing. The fact that it isn't being done right and that it probably never will be done right again is the whole issue. As long as pest is an issue, it is inferior.

I have lots of Weaver with plastic frames, bodies, trucks and couplers and none of it has given me any issues that I didn't cause. Warped, heat damaged, cracked shells are usually from electronics failures, mis-storing an item or assembly issues and not issues with the material itself. Never has anyone complained that plastic just crumbled apart.

I too have a lot of N scale from back to the sixties. I have many of the makes in that scale, Arnold, LifeLike, Kato, Atlas, Con-Cor, BLI, Bachmann/Spectrum and E-R Models. I have 188 locomotives, 249 passenger cars and 553 freight cars in N scale. Number of these with zinc pest = zero. Number with warped or broken shells that weren't my fault = zero. I can't say the same for my O gauge stuff.

This looks like a job for @CentralFan1976 with 3D printing from Shapeway

@Mike D posted:

Jim, you seem to be the most vocal proponent of zincs superiority, yet you fail to provide a valid argument as to why it is superior to plastic. There is nothing inherently superior about that material. None. It adds nothing that plastic doesn't add except perhaps weight. Who cares if it's done right or not. It adds nothing. The fact that it isn't being done right and that it probably never will be done right again is the whole issue. As long as pest is an issue, it is inferior.

I have lots of Weaver with plastic frames, bodies, trucks and couplers and none of it has given me any issues that I didn't cause. Warped, heat damaged, cracked shells are usually from electronics failures, mis-storing an item or assembly issues and not issues with the material itself. Never has anyone complained that plastic just crumbled apart.

I too have a lot of N scale from back to the sixties. I have many of the makes in that scale, Arnold, LifeLike, Kato, Atlas, Con-Cor, BLI, Bachmann/Spectrum and E-R Models. I have 188 locomotives, 249 passenger cars and 553 freight cars in N scale. Number of these with zinc pest = zero. Number with warped or broken shells that weren't my fault = zero. I can't say the same for my O gauge stuff.

I’m among those who agree that another alloy casting, either brass or aluminum, would be better than zinc. More costly with some drawbacks. However, plastic-bodied steamers? Sounds like a lobby interest to me.

Seems to me I remember numerous postwar plastic shells with stress fractures where screws attach the body to the frame. EP5s ring a bell? How about that bulging mid-section on all the F3s from heat? Care to do some more postwar O gauge studying before coming to your plastics conclusions?

How about all the crazed plastics from early Floquil paints, requiring the company to formulate a barrier application in the 1970s?

I also have plastic frames on quite a few freight cars that have bowed? Why? Well, plastic shrinks with age. So if a metal weight is attached, something has to give.

Plastic also becomes more brittle with age. And you say you have never seen plastic crumble? Huh, maybe you should search the landfills, where uncounted tons of plastic model components end up. I have seen countless broken trucks that snapped when new wheel sets were installed on N and HO cars. I have seen broken shell mounting holes on numerous Athearn engines. I have seen endless broken truck mounts on old Tyco locomotives.

None of this sound familiar? Or did you decide to ignore all these facts in favor of trumpeting plastics’ superiority over all else.

The zinc problem is with subcontractors in China who O gauge manufacturers depend on for zinc-based components such as couplers, car frames, trucks, truck sideframes and, in the case of my MTH American Freedom Train GS4 from 2002, the locomotive skirting. Some folks here have decided the problem is the alloy. Funny we went decades without any problems until China production became the norm.

So who is to blame? The subcontractors because of ignorance? The Chinese government for not setting industrial standards? The main contractors for not vetting the subcontractors? The import manufacturers for not tolerating top quality control? The U.S. government for allowing domestic manufacturing to be supplanted by foreign manufacturing?

Plain and simple, I don’t know. But it’s clear O gauge zinc pest as in Ben’s sample here is the result. On the other hand, shall we line up all the diecast parts over the past 80 years that are perfectly fine? You couldn’t fit those components in a New York mansion.

The fact is an infinite number of plastic components have failed at a rate eternally greater than diecast failures. But you’re right. There is no such thing as plastic pest. So it’s got that going for it.

@bigkid posted:

You basically hit the nail on the head, quality isn't about inspections, those only catch the most glaring of problems. Back in the 'good old days' of GM and the other US manufacturers, they spent 50% of their time rebuilding cars coming off the assembly lines (and a lot of floor space) because of poor quality control and then in the field, well, there is a reason they gained the reputation they had. The problem is that for many products the manufacturing has gone backwards and it shows in the quality of many mass produced products done for 'cheapest price, always'.

With the trains we are buying they are sourcing components from the cheapest source (likely in China), the chips and boards are made and assembled there, and it is kind of like the old auto industry (dead now around 25 years). If the part can be used to assemble the train, they use it, if the board plugs into the harness, they put it in there. If a part doesn't fit, it goes into a bin or dumpster. If the engine starts up on being powered up, lights up, passes basic checks, it is done.  If a truck already showed signs on Zinc pest, it would go into the garbage, no one asks why it is like that from the vendor. If they get a lot of bad parts, they refuse to pay the vendor, they ship them new ones.

I am sure they are checked out when they get here, too, and I am sure some of them are fixed and repaired because screws fell out, etc. The real problem with this kind of thing is you end up with marginal parts that fail fast, that can't be found this way.

Really the only difference between the trains we are buying and the cheap mass produced stuff you buy at Walmart is likely the profit margin, that cheap fry pan is made in the millions so if they make 1 buck on each, that Lionel Engine sells in the thousands so the profit margin is a lot higher/unit (Just to throw a number out there, a 2000 grand engine might cost them 800 to produce hypothetically).

Other makers of high end products use lean production and quality techniques, for example Apple when producing its phones and tablets and such, so the quality is higher there for a comparable priced product (and yes, the margins on those items is large, too, last I checked the prod cost on a an Apple Phone was like around 200 bucks).

And basically it is what it is, not likely to change because it is the dynamic of this market.

Exactly right.  You can't inspect quality into a product.  It must be designed and built in as part of its creation.  That's true of manufactured items as well as software.  If someone is testing something to determine its quality, that train has already left the station.

Zinc pest has been around for what, 80 years?  Sheesh.      There really isn't any excuse for it in 2022.

George

When concidering plastic models, look at the development of plasticizer migration.   From my work with vinyl flooring products,  the time line of plasticizers leaving their host has determined the products serviceability.

Think outdoor plastic furniture, awning, pools, etc.  They get hard and brittle , crack and break then wind up in a land fill just like we do.

Not sure how chemistry has changed in recent years but plasticizer migration has been a major player in determining the useful life of many plastics.

@Tom Tee posted:

When concidering plastic models, look at the development of plasticizer migration.   From my work with vinyl flooring products,  the time line of plasticizers leaving their host has determined the products serviceability.

Think outdoor plastic furniture, awning, pools, etc.  They get hard and brittle , crack and break then wind up in a land fill just like we do.

Not sure how chemistry has changed in recent years but plasticizer migration has been a major player in determining the useful life of many plastics.

I am no chemist, so I have to take your word about Plasticizer migration. The outdoor furniture thing is different in that although they have UV stabilizers in outdoor plastics, they still are affected by UV and deteriorate over time. Indoor plastics, like our trains, especially those painted, won't suffer from that same type of deterioration at anywhere near the same rate as outdoor plastics and will last longer.

I am no lobbyist and have no interest in the plastic industry. I just want models that don't fall apart in the box, on my layout or in my hands from material defects. That doesn't happen with plastic. Is plastic perfect, no.

Like I said Zinc pest is a problem. The manufacturers are not interested in addressing this problem. They aren't out anything when our models fall apart. As a matter of fact it is a windfall for them, because that means we are buying new rolling stock, locomotives, accessories, etc. when ours fall apart. I would rather have plastic that lasts longer than I will be around than zinc that has the potential to fail while I'm still alive.

As far as steamers are concerned, I have some very nice Kato, Spectrum and BLI steamers in N scale that can be considered top of the line in that scale that have plastic shells. They have outstanding levels of detail and run flawlessly. My HO Spectrum Mikado is actually nicer than the N scale version of it that I have and it has a plastic shell. I would say they are the N and HO scale equivalents of my O gauge Premier steamer in both detail and performance. If MTH offered a plastic Premier steamer I would have no issue with purchasing one.

If the manufacturers would get the pest issue resolved then I would have no problem with zinc what so ever. They aren't going to fix it, so I have a problem with it.

Insert beating dead horse emoji here.

Michael   what makes you think the  people's republic cares?  At any time they can pull the plug on the toy market  , and it wouldnt hurt their GNP one bit!, You can see what holding back electronic components  has done to  markets  world wide. The production  of toys and trains is not a priority and may be cut sooner than you think!

@Jim R. posted:

1.  Plastic also becomes more brittle with age.

2.  The zinc problem is with subcontractors in China who O gauge manufacturers depend on for zinc-based components such as couplers, car frames, trucks, truck sideframes and, in the case of my MTH American Freedom Train GS4 from 2002, the locomotive skirting. Some folks here have decided the problem is the alloy. Funny we went decades without any problems until China production became the norm.

So who is to blame? The subcontractors because of ignorance? The Chinese government for not setting industrial standards? The main contractors for not vetting the subcontractors? The import manufacturers for not tolerating top quality control? The U.S. government for allowing domestic manufacturing to be supplanted by foreign manufacturing?

3.  Plain and simple, I don’t know. But it’s clear O gauge zinc pest as in Ben’s sample here is the result.

1. Indeed it does; but the OP had issues straight out of the box. I had a K-Line hopper with the same thing. The examples you site are caused by over stressing the material, not a defect in the material itself.

2. At the risk of "beating that dead horse", it's not a Chinese problem, other than the fact that EVERYTHING we buy now is made there. As I've said (every time this comes up) I've had parts made in Italy (Rivarossi), Japan (KTM brass loco drive components) and good ol' USA (John English and Mantua and even on rare occasion, Bowser). Not excusing it, but it happens.

3. I agree completely.

Mark in Oregon

PS: Yeah, for some reason, a plastic bodied O scale steam engine just seems... wrong. 🤔 🙂

@Dave Koehler posted:

Michael   what makes you think the  people's republic cares?  At any time they can pull the plug on the toy market  , and it wouldnt hurt their GNP one bit!, You can see what holding back electronic components  has done to  markets  world wide. The production  of toys and trains is not a priority and may be cut sooner than you think!

I don't think they care at all. I didn't say or suggest that they did.

This discussion is about zinc pest and the fact that the manufacturers don't care about the issue. Jim and I have once again gotten into a back and forth about the pros and cons of zinc vs plastic. As long as zinc pest is an issue and no one seems interested in remedying the problem then I would prefer they use plastic to eliminate the issue from the hobby. Then we can get to complaining about how bad plastic is and all of the problems we have with it.

@Strummer posted:

PS: Yeah, for some reason, a plastic bodied O scale steam engine just seems... wrong. 🤔 🙂

I just don't get this mentality. I am not picking on you in particular, but this ideology seems to pervade this segment of the hobby and no one can explain it. Just about every other locomotive type, most passenger cars and freight cars are plastic bodied and no one has an issue with it. But mention a plastic steamer and folks don't want to even entertain the idea.

@Mike D posted:

I just don't get this mentality. I am not picking on you in particular, but this ideology seems to pervade this segment of the hobby and no one can explain it. Just about every other locomotive type, most passenger cars and freight cars are plastic bodied and no one has an issue with it. But mention a plastic steamer and folks don't want to even entertain the idea.

Which is why you argue against metal castings anytime you can. You promote plastics with zeal. And ignore plastic failings without even vetting your obvious errors. Now you’re denying the plasticizer problem “indoors” ? My God, examples of toys that have melted onto other surfaces are renown, including on Lionel trains. I had one melt inside a furniture drawer at one time.

Try this thread for some samples and maybe follow my advice and do a Google search to learn more. And while you’re at it, try to gather some information on other plastics problems.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...res-a-new-one-for-me

@Mike D posted:

I just don't get this mentality. I am not picking on you in particular, but this ideology seems to pervade this segment of the hobby and no one can explain it. Just about every other locomotive type, most passenger cars and freight cars are plastic bodied and no one has an issue with it. But mention a plastic steamer and folks don't want to even entertain the idea.

Actually, I totally get it, Michael. Heck, I'm not even sure why I feel this way; a lot of the steamers I have in other scales are plastic, but for some reason, an O scale boiler/cab,etc just doesn't seem right. 😀

Mark in Oregon

@Jim R. posted:

Which is why you argue against metal castings anytime you can. You promote plastics with zeal. And ignore plastic failings without even vetting your obvious errors. Now you’re denying the plasticizer problem “indoors” ? My God, examples of toys that have melted onto other surfaces are renown, including on Lionel trains. I had one melt inside a furniture drawer at one time.

Try this thread for some samples and maybe follow my advice and do a Google search to learn more. And while you’re at it, try to gather some information on other plastics problems.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...res-a-new-one-for-me

Jim, there are no obvious errors in my arguments. You present a lot of failure scenarios where an outside influcencer has caused a plastic failure, but none caused by  inherent flaws in the material itself. Plastic doesn't just melt on it's own due to material defect. It doesn't just crack or break on it's own due to material defect. It doesn't just craze on it's own due to material defect. I have plastic items that are several decades old with no issues. No material is perfect. Not even plastics.

Your arguments against plastics reek of an infomercial for zinc products with catastrophe afflicting everything that contain plastic to make zinc look superior. Plastic is everywhere and serves reliably. Like anything, it won't last forever. It isnt isn't perfect for everything and it has it's limitations.

I have made my argument and you have made yours. We will never see eye to eye on this topic. I think it is time to let it rest.

I'm with you Michael.

@Mike D posted:

... Most smaller scales use plastic so they don't have this issue. I have lots of N-scale stuff, lots by Atlas, and I don't have this issue with any of it. I wish O-gauge manufacturers would use plastic on their stuff so the O-gauge community wouldn't have to deal with this issue any longer.

Not so. I have plastic models from the 1950s and 60s that I can only look at, not handle.

Plastic models of cars, airplanes, etc. become brittle. That stuff just wasn't meant to last this long. See thread here, on a forum for Tamiya Models:

https://www.tamiyaclub.com/for...es-becoming-brittle/

@Mike D posted:

I just don't get this mentality. I am not picking on you in particular, but this ideology seems to pervade this segment of the hobby and no one can explain it. Just about every other locomotive type, most passenger cars and freight cars are plastic bodied and no one has an issue with it. But mention a plastic steamer and folks don't want to even entertain the idea.

Plastic ain't heavy—unless you put weights in the body—and metal is just more impressive than plastic is.

One of my earliest memories of my trains from when I was little kid was how heavy and satisfying they were. It's an emotional response, not a logical one—not something anyone can argue with.

@Andrew-Porter posted:

Not so. I have plastic models from the 1950s and 60s that I can only look at, not handle.

The glue that you used is probably more the reason why you can't handle them than the plastic. I have seen that happen. Car fell apart, BUT, the parts were still intact and the car was rebuilt!
So, I am going to disagree with you naysayers!
In my 60+ years of building plastic kits of all types, I have never had a problem with the plastic...NEVER! I have never seen a plastic model railroad car, in any scale with a problem nor the Delrin trucks.
As I have said many times before, I would welcome a plastic model of a steam loco (or diesel) along the lines of the old AMT 3 in 1 kits. A kit that comes with extra parts to make different versions of the same loco. But, I'm not holding my breath for that to happen as there are too many people these days that don't want to or know how to model!

As for JimR's link above, it is nothing more than comparing apples to oranges. A traction tire is not a car body! Same thing for a rubber band! Boy, do those things rot, even stored away in the dark! So, along those lines, I have seen vinyl-like model tires melt plastic. But, it wasn't the hard plastic's fault, it was whatever the soft, flexible tire was made from. BTW, the "hard plastic" slicks that AMT made for their car models never hatched or caused a defect!

This thread seems to underline the reason for buying Sunset brass.

Plastic may or may not fail.

Zinc pest may or may or may not attack.

Old brass just seems to live on indefinitely.

@Mike D posted:

Jim, there are no obvious errors in my arguments. You present a lot of failure scenarios where an outside influcencer has caused a plastic failure, but none caused by  inherent flaws in the material itself. Plastic doesn't just melt on it's own due to material defect. It doesn't just crack or break on it's own due to material defect. It doesn't just craze on it's own due to material defect. I have plastic items that are several decades old with no issues. No material is perfect. Not even plastics.

Your arguments against plastics reek of an infomercial for zinc products with catastrophe afflicting everything that contain plastic to make zinc look superior. Plastic is everywhere and serves reliably. Like anything, it won't last forever. It isnt isn't perfect for everything and it has it's limitations.

I have made my argument and you have made yours. We will never see eye to eye on this topic. I think it is time to let it rest.

No errors, huh.

You said: “Most smaller scales use plastic so they don't have this issue. I have lots of N-scale stuff, lots by Atlas, and I don't have this issue with any of it.”

I pointed out that I have 23 of 49 N scale steamers with diecast boilers or bodies, and that more than half my freight cars have diecast frames, and all but a couple of my diesels have diecast frames. Seems like diecast components are a key component in smaller scales, and since you say you haven’t had any problems with them, well, then, I guess diecast zinc pest isn’t really the ****ing problem you seem to be selling here.

You said: “you fail to provide a valid argument as to why it is superior to plastic.”

I gave numerous examples of plastic failure from the postwar era for toy trains to modern times in all scales — problems tied to aging plastic and its weaker nature.

You said, in response to Tom Tee’s example of plasticizer problems: “Indoor plastics, like our trains, especially those painted, won't suffer from that same type of deterioration at anywhere near the same rate as outdoor plastics and will last longer.”

Tom Tee and I were saying that plasticizer problems were inherent in flexible plastics, not merely outdoor plastics, and have presented themselves indoors quite readily. (And to Big Jim, the forum topic I linked to was not only about traction tires, if you read through it.) Learn more. Do a Google search for plasticizer migration and read.

And the biggest error of all? You keep on talking about the lack of problems in plastic-bodied steamers in other scales. Tell me, which diecast bodies have failed in O gauge in the China era? This isn’t a rhetorical question. Answer it. The problem remains with subcontractors in China who do not follow best practices in manufacturing, not the main factories that make the bodies of our diecast models.

And here’s the clincher, something that seems to escape your apparently never-wrong mindset. I never said I didn’t favor plastics in scale trains. In any scale. Plastic-bodies diesels have never been an issue, and I accept them as a tradition, even if they were brought about by the postwar plastics boom that allowed for a more inexpensive form of manufacturing. I also have bought plastic-bodied N scale steamers for models I cherish.

You see, I wasn’t advocating that all those plastic products be remade as diecast. But you seem to be trying to convince the rest of us who favor our diecast O scale steamers that manufacturers should switch to plastic. Whose doing the overselling here?

@Tom Tee posted:

This thread seems to underline the reason for buying Sunset brass.

Plastic may or may not fail.

Zinc pest may or may or may not attack.

Old brass just seems to live on indefinitely.

I would prefer brass castings over zinc, if manufacturers and buyers would accept the added production costs.

I’m fact, here was an innovative effort by a Michigan company in the 1970s to make a brass shell (which I assume was produced from a lost wax brass casting) sourced from the original Rivarossi plastic shell of the IHB 0-8-0 modeled in N scale. (It fits perfectly on the original Rivarossi diecast chassis.)

But sheet brass manufacturing is a labor intensive process that’s only suitable for small production orders, such as those which Third Rail commissions. If you had to make 2,000 O gauge brass locomotives, it certainly would increase the labor costs for the manufacturer.

Finally, on the central post of this thread, the Atlas frames that have crumbled from zinc pest, we have a real problem and no one to advocate for us. I’m afraid it will continue as long as production standards remain unchanged in China concerning subcontractors.

I feel fortunate, compared to some on this forum, to have been faced with zinc pest only three times so far. I didn’t mind when it claimed the sideframes on one 1990s Williams F-M Train Master and the trucks on my MTH White Rock Water diecast reefer, both easily remedied. But losing the skirting on my 2002 MTH Premier GS4 represented highly visible damage to one of the favorite locomotives. I’m glad MTH had new skirts available from a later production run, but we can’t count on replacement parts being available in the future.

So, yeah, the frustration is real.

Jim, I don't care about diecast or plastic steamers. None of my main arguments are about zinc used in that application. You are hung up on the steamer thing, not me. I only brought it up because some people feel like a plastic steamer is not right in O gauge. That stems primarily from a sentimental point of view and not necessarily from a logical perspective as someone has already mentioned.

The items we deal with that suffer from pest the most are the detail items like fuel tanks, trucks, sideframes, pilots, couplers, smoke units, etc. This is the area where zinc is causing the most problems. This is the area where plastic would outperform zinc and eliminate a lot of the problems we are dealing with. I personally have had zinc parts in all of the categories I just mentioned fail due to pest. With the exception of the smoke units, plastic would adequately replace all of the aforementioned parts.

You are clearly reading way too much into my posts if you think that I want all zinc eliminated from our products. I only want it eliminated if it can't or won't be produced properly in China. I am in no way advocating for zinc to be completely replaced by plastic because I feel plastic is superior to zinc. I want to see plastic replace zinc in many of the parts on our trains because zinc isn't being produced properly and I feel plastic would be far less problematic in the applications where we are seeing failing zinc parts.

None of the N scale items I own have zinc pest issues. But I have had quite a few issues with it in O gauge and therein lies the issue. That is what this whole thread is about, not diecast vs plastic steamers, not plasticizers, and not N scale. Those things were only brought up as points of discussion to show that similar parts made in plastic aren't failing due to material defect.

I am not trying to sell a problem. It has already been sold and we bought it. I want to see it go away. If that means plastic then so be it. You can't seem to handle that solution and apparently are content to continue to throw your money away on products with defects rather than have another material that can perform the job satisfactorily. I would rather buy a product and have it last longer than me.

I personally don't care about the materials that go into our trains as long as the end result is a quality product, free from defects, that performs the task it was designed for and lasts a long time. Since we aren't getting that with zinc, that is why I am an advocate for plastic to replace it. I don't see that as being unreasonable. I'll bet the OP and many others with hundreds or thousands of dollars tied up in trains that are worthless and unusable to due zinc pest would agree.

I have read about plasticizer migration and how it effects plastics and materials in contact with those chemicals. I only mentioned the outdoor plastics because that was the example used by a fellow forumite in his response. It is not really that much of an issue with many of the plastics we use in our hobbies.

@Jim R. posted:

I’m fact, here was an innovative effort by a Michigan company in the 1970s to make a brass shell (which I assume was produced from a lost wax brass casting) sourced from the original Rivarossi plastic shell of the IHB 0-8-0 modeled in N scale. (It fits perfectly on the original Rivarossi diecast chassis.)

Yes; there were several outfits that took N scale plastic shells and "lost" it in the process of making a poured brass replacement. Works fine, as long as you have enough plastic shells to sacrifice. 🙂

(Thought I'd throw this in before the moderator shuts this down...)

Mark in Oregon

That stinks.

I just had a MPC U36 lose a truck side due to this. You just never know...

@bigtruckpete posted:

That stinks.

I just had a MPC U36 lose a truck side due to this. You just never know...

Yikes. I don't believe I've heard much about MPC era stuff having it too...

Mark in Oregon

@bigtruckpete posted:

That stinks.

I just had a MPC U36 lose a truck side due to this. You just never know...

That's the "fun" part of Zinc pest, you never know what will set it off or when it will happen. A friend had a Lionel Torpedo steamer, pre-war IIRC, that looked perfect when he purchased it around 1990. Within a year it began to expand and a few months later was reduced to crumbling pieces.

@BobbyD posted:

That's the "fun" part of Zinc pest, you never know what will set it off or when it will happen. A friend had a Lionel Torpedo steamer, pre-war IIRC, that looked perfect when he purchased it around 1990. Within a year it began to expand and a few months later was reduced to crumbling pieces.

You don't want to be the last man standing with an expensive piece before it disintegrates.  I used to collect 1:18 diecast autos and some of the more expensive ones had zinc rot.  There were photos where you could see through the plastic window the diecast car inside crumbling to pieces even though the box was never opened.

Also, how many of us have items that we bought years ago and never opened.  A rude surprise might be waiting for us!

So, if I'm interested in a particular Atlas hopper how do determine when it was manufactured so I can avoid the 2005-2007 years Ben mentioned? I realize that's not a full-proof guarantee against dealing with zinc pest, but it might reduce the chances.

@Zeke posted:

So, if I'm interested in a particular Atlas hopper how do determine when it was manufactured so I can avoid the 2005-2007 years Ben mentioned? I realize that's not a full-proof guarantee against dealing with zinc pest, but it might reduce the chances.

Use the part number and search their website.

@Frank Mulligan posted:

You don't want to be the last man standing with an expensive piece before it disintegrates.  I used to collect 1:18 diecast autos and some of the more expensive ones had zinc rot.  There were photos where you could see through the plastic window the diecast car inside crumbling to pieces even though the box was never opened.

Also, how many of us have items that we bought years ago and never opened.  A rude surprise might be waiting for us!

Should we always be skeptical where they show the trains either wrapped or still in the box through the window Frank? About a year ago a friend found a Lionel engine he wanted for sale on "that auction site" advertised as new. The images showed it in the Styrofoam package with the lid off. When my friend asked for images of the actual item the seller said he didn't want to unwrap it for photos because it was "sealed" up. My friend passed on it.

BobbyD - thank you, but I'm still a little confused.  I'm interested in 6434-8 (Lehigh Valley War Emergency hopper), but when I go to the Atlas website I see that 6434 was produced in February 2007, September 2008, and May 2012.  I don't see a specific part number? I clicked on the links but that just showed a picture.

Sorry if this is all obvious and I'm just being dense.

@Zeke posted:

BobbyD - thank you, but I'm still a little confused.  I'm interested in 6434-8 (Lehigh Valley War Emergency hopper), but when I go to the Atlas website I see that 6434 was produced in February 2007, September 2008, and May 2012.  I don't see a specific part number? I clicked on the links but that just showed a picture.

Sorry if this is all obvious and I'm just being dense.

It says new road numbers each production year, though too bad the website doesn't show them. I'm thinking a call to Atlas could get you that information. Let us know.

Road #14020?

Anddd Another

The hopper doors are also crumbling   I had to crazy glue them in place   I had ordered 10 frames from Atlas and this is my last one  Hopefully its the last car that will do this

@coach joe posted:

"No experience, no knowledge(?), no control,...no care...,"   Quality control isn't just looking at one in a thousand of the finished product as it is slid into it's packaging, it should include materials making the parts that make the assemblies that are assembled in a proper fashion to provide a finished product free of blemishes and defects that functions as intended and designed.  .

Themetallurgical knowledge, control, and, yes, concern BY THE CASTING ZINC SUPPLIER was exactly the point of my original comment.  Of course there's no way to detect ZP in the finished product as it's boxed for its journey to your layout.  Atlas undoubtedly has had a lot of experience in helping their sources control this at its most basic level...when their products were made within their direct control in the USofA.  They have no such control in that land far, far away.  It's up to their contracted supplier of the finished product to manage such issues.  And, good luck with that for as much as we've learned about far, far away sourcing in a land controlled by government fiat.

It is what it is.  And as the cartoon sez...

...including Zinc Pest.

@dkdkrd posted:

"In the end"...?  I'm afraid zinc rot, zinc pest, ...whatever name you choose...will never "end".  At least not as long as the products are made far, far away, without metallurgical analysis/control/concern, in a land of dynamic labor and sourcing.  It's not a guaranteed certainty, but it is so widespread among manufacturers in that environment that the odds are sometimes rather dismal that you'll just be lucky in your purchase to have avoided it...sooner or later.

"How many products were produced with this issue"??...If it's die cast from that land far, far away, it could easily find its way into your whatever treasure...rolling stock, freight or passenger, locomotives (diesel, steam, electric), accessories, ...you name it.

Zinc pest, as it's commonly called, was the bane of some Pre-War Lionel in-house production until the metallurgical anomaly was identified and corrected.   Dad's 1835E tender, ca mid-1930's, got bit...badly. (I've shown the photos in prior threads.)  Lionel stepped up and provided a pest-free replacement wiki-wiki.  Then 'the pest' seemed to disappear as an issue in this hobby...until we became obsessed with having our choo-choos made in that land far, far away.  No experience, no knowledge(?), no control,...no care..., pretty certain what happened thereafter.   The other exciting characteristic is that sometimes it manifests itself within the warranty period, but sometimes not until long after.  Oh joy.

Want more on this issue as it affects us all?.....search the Forum on "Zinc Pest".  Keep the aspirin and vino handy, pal.

While this is a long time issue, truth is the blame lies with the companies that contract out, you get what you pay for.

Zeke, the war emergency and fishbelly hoppers are diecast bodies and chassis. I’ve had no issues with either and haven’t read of any issues. The fish belly’s have been around for close to 20 years.

It seems it’s a certain run of 55 ton hoppers that have the problem. They feature a plastic body on a diecast chassis. After the chassis is screwed to the body. Detail items are added. It’s not a simple fix even if the parts are available. I have a couple that are still perfect. A few  I was able to make a new truck mount for and one that just completely dissinegrated.

The ones I have replaced are all from the first run of the 55 ton hopper   So far none of the later or different variations have had problems

If you have any of these check them out  If you see the ends of the car bulging out its a sign   Look at the hopper doors and the frame itself   If you remove on of the trucks it will be easier to see

If this is a general zinc pest info thread, here’s some-Until recently, I’ve only had zinc pest issues with one K-line operating flat car which was a little, $10 purchase at a train show.  Haven’t had issues with any of my Atlas rolling stock(knock on wood), but I haven’t yet seen on this board issue I’m about to present.

Just bought this 2004 Lionel SD40t-2 on eBay from a someone selling his dad’s collection. Pictures looked great. Here it is on my layout

unfortunately when I opened it up...

These were laying at the bottom of the styrofoam. It looked like it hadn’t been run in awhile judging from the dust, so these broke off in shipping. Notice the cracking, one is slightly warped, too

the side frames aren’t available anymore but I think I can fit new sd40t-2 side frames on to it. That said, I still to get the paint to match. Instead of returning it i decided to take a 60% discount after negotiating.

Early to mid 2000s Lionel is known for its QC issues, but up until now i haven’t seen a diesel affected.
just a heads up to fellow forumites. And, if anyone has solutions to offer regarding side frames, I’d appreciate it

This old, worn out series of Atlas O cars crumble.

Watch out,  better have some spare ladders and irons.

And Ben said Atlas is the best!

@StevefromPA posted:

Early to mid 2000s Lionel is known for its QC issues, but up until now i haven’t seen a diesel affected.

Well, maybe not a diesel, but many of the Lionel JLC GG1 locomotives have had their sideframes rotting away.  The bad part is, those are also the piece that the couplers are attached to, so the engine is useless without them!

Thought I would chime in here after looking at a couple of the links, one of them about the traction tires melting.  I don't know if it is a cause, but air pollution does attack things you might expect to be impervious.  The foam suspension on speakers disappears after several years in a polluted environment, especially if you live near a paper mill.  I moved from a town with 3 pulp mills, to an area where the closest is 30 miles away, and have had no issues with speakers since, where before, 5 years was about it for the foam. While not an issue with zinc, bad air could be getting to other materials taken decades to degrade them, or then again maybe not, but it is still something to ponder.  Perhaps posting questions about the condition of vintage trains in places with zero air problems vs places like LA or towns with heavy industry may generate some data.

This brings to mind my first early teens encounter with something l had never then heard of...l ordered a diecast HO steamer kit from a heavily advertised mail order NE hobby shop, almost forgotten, but l think kit was Mantua brand. It arrived with a warped boiler.  Ended mail-order for a long time.  Heard of and encountered it again when admired, at first, three rail Flyer, and then again, recently, when l bought raikcar trucks.  Have wondered when that shop closed and ads disappeared from MR, but probably should wonder how prevalent zp was in HO then?

@StevefromPA posted:

Just bought this 2004 Lionel SD40t-2 on eBay from a someone selling his dad’s collection. Pictures looked great. Here it is on my layout

unfortunately when I opened it up...

These were laying at the bottom of the styrofoam. It looked like it hadn’t been run in awhile judging from the dust, so these broke off in shipping. Notice the cracking, one is slightly warped, too

the side frames aren’t available anymore but I think I can fit new sd40t-2 side frames on to it. That said, I still to get the paint to match. Instead of returning it i decided to take a 60% discount after negotiating.

And, if anyone has solutions to offer regarding side frames, I’d appreciate it

(Edited and photos omitted)

This is pretty easy. It’s not like touching up something on the shell. Go to the Lionel parts site and order matching frames from another SD40T-2 or SD40-2 model. Either Testors Bright Silver or Minuteman Models Scalecoat II ATSF Silver will be a close enough match for this project. These are available in rattle cans. Just take your time and apply light coats.

RM

@Rich Montague thanks for that info, Rich! Appreciate it. I just didn’t know the color. Only other problem is getting the screws out- the trucks barely swing far. Enough to reveal one. I tried turning to screws from the bottom with two different pairs of pliers but wasn’t getting anywhere, will have to give it another go

@colorado hirailer posted:

This brings to mind my first early teens encounter with something l had never then heard of...l ordered a diecast HO steamer kit from a heavily advertised mail order NE hobby shop, almost forgotten, but l think kit was Mantua brand. It arrived with a warped boiler.  Ended mail-order for a long time.  Heard of and encountered it again when admired, at first, three rail Flyer, and then again, recently, when l bought raikcar trucks.  Have wondered when that shop closed and ads disappeared from MR, but probably should wonder how prevalent zp was in HO then?

In HO: I've got a bunch of old John English stuff and probably a third of it has "zp"; have also seen it in some AHM/Rivarossi parts.

I think some of the early Atlas N scale Mikados and Pacifics were notorious for that as well...

Mark in Oregon

@dkdkrd posted:

"In the end"...?  I'm afraid zinc rot, zinc pest, ...whatever name you choose...will never "end".  At least not as long as the products are made far, far away, without metallurgical analysis/control/concern, in a land of dynamic labor and sourcing.  It's not a guaranteed certainty, but it is so widespread among manufacturers in that environment that the odds are sometimes rather dismal that you'll just be lucky in your purchase to have avoided it...sooner or later.

"How many products were produced with this issue"??...If it's die cast from that land far, far away, it could easily find its way into your whatever treasure...rolling stock, freight or passenger, locomotives (diesel, steam, electric), accessories, ...you name it.

Zinc pest, as it's commonly called, was the bane of some Pre-War Lionel in-house production until the metallurgical anomaly was identified and corrected.   Dad's 1835E tender, ca mid-1930's, got bit...badly. (I've shown the photos in prior threads.)  Lionel stepped up and provided a pest-free replacement wiki-wiki.  Then 'the pest' seemed to disappear as an issue in this hobby...until we became obsessed with having our choo-choos made in that land far, far away.  No experience, no knowledge(?), no control,...no care..., pretty certain what happened thereafter.   The other exciting characteristic is that sometimes it manifests itself within the warranty period, but sometimes not until long after.  Oh joy.

Want more on this issue as it affects us all?.....search the Forum on "Zinc Pest".  Keep the aspirin and vino handy, pal.

Prewar Flyer 3/16ths O gauge diecast items suffer from zinc pest, Dorfan was probably the earliest victim (I've dubbed zinc pest Dorfan's Disease in their honor), Lionel also had their share of zinc pest problems, but it appears they weren't zapped as badly as Flyer and Dorfan were. Postwar Lionel and Flyer seem to be pretty clear of the problem (I assume both arrived at the need for high purity zinc/not reusing miscast or scrap from sprues/discards from clean-up of floors or work areas where scrap could accrue either just before/during/just after WW II ended).