DCS signal Engines disappear???

20 years with DCS and still learning. Even though one TIU is on the layout and one you were using as a test track. They weren’t both powered up at the same time in your last scenario and the remote is seeing 2  #1 TIU addresses. But in the beginning you were only dealing with the one on the layout. Whenever I have issues. It’s usually battery related. With PS3 engines it should rule that out. Most times I just delete the engine and start over and re add it.

Good point on having two Tiu's powered. Unfortunately that sadly was not the case. I did remove power and usb cable from test track before going to main layout to test.  I worry about deleting the engine and it never finding it again. That could provide more info, if it finds it to add it but still doesn't show when a read button is hit. I'll try it.

I’m not one that usually presses the read button unless I’m having an issue.  Don’t think I ever did it with a moving engine. If you have a really bad track signal. It may not see the engine when you press it. Remember. Once an engine gets moving. Even if you lose control of it. It will always  follow the last command it received. I think by pressing it. The only reason for an engine to go on the inactive list is it’s either not on the layout or it’s on an unpowered track with say a toggle switch. It only reads what it sees. If you manage to get it up and moving. It wouldn’t hurt to do a track signal test just to see where you stand. A lousy signal can make it hard to run anything reliably.

Please purchase the DCS O Gauge Companion from the MTH website. I assume that the wires are minimum 16 gauge stranded (18 gauge produces the results that you are experiencing).      

@Gerald Jackson posted:

Please purchase the DCS O Gauge Companion from the MTH website. I assume that the wires are minimum 16 gauge stranded (18 gauge produces the results that you are experiencing).      

Hi Gerald,

The wires are 16 ga. and have the DCS O Gauge Companion from MTH which I have been using to electrically set up the entire layout. Using star wiring for power feeds to various districts. Always good to check fundamentals.

And Dave C. good point on engine just using the last command, I was thinking that there was always communication between the engine and tiu (throw back to guided missile days where you had to keep communications between the ship and nuclear guided misslie) Yes it makes sense that the last command is what it follows until the next command is ack.

Dave C.,

I did delete the engine and reloaded successfully! Now maybe the other issue with read button is low track signal. I'll need to read the section on reading track signal and post my findings.

Thanks to everyone who responed, very much appreciated!

Make sure you have correctly installed 22 uH chokes in any Lionel or ERR upgarded locomotives otherwise they will kill the DCS signal.

@Porschev posted:

Make sure you have correctly installed 22 uH chokes in any Lionel or ERR upgarded locomotives otherwise they will kill the DCS signal.

I will double check, I did the "upgrade" so long ago I cannot remember if the chokes came with kit and where they would go. However I have the original documentation and any parts that were not used in a separate container. So I should be able to check that out for sure.

I did have the tracks cleared of any lionel engines when I was having DCS issues with finding engine and doing a read. Thanks for the great suggestion when I do have both MTH and Lionel on the layout.

Ok so what I found was terrible DCS signal on the layout track. (3-5) were the numbers until the engine got close to the track with the actual feed wires, then signal went up to 8.

The test track did have signal of 10.

Also when I turned on my remote 'BAT' came up, which I assume is low battery alert and I changed the batteries.

So I will need to work on getting the DCS signal up to snuff on the layout before I continue doing any other work. Back to reading Barry's book. Not sure why the signal is not a 10 on the track with direct wiring. The TIU is a Rev. L and the output of the TIU goes to a relay board then to the track. I might try by-passing the relay and test the signal again.

My layout features pretty much violates all the rules of DCS. Common ground buss wiring and feeders in every section of track. Layout had been around for 15 years before DCS. After a months tweaking after the initial install it yields 10’s everywhere. Still if I was starting from scratch. I would follow the recommended practice with the paired wiring.
Not sure how you have the relay board wired. When I wanted to have tracks with on off capability. I pretty much wired as I normally would. Then just cut the center rail wire somewhere near where the toggle switch would reside and place the relay there.  This would not alter the direct run to the track from the terminal strip. The relays were just controlled by a 12v power supply that was already there for the Tortoise’s and lighting.

One thing DCS doesn’t like. Is splitting the signal more than once. You want your paired wires from the TIU to go to a terminal strip. From there they should only go to a section of isolated track or a block. Not to another strip and then split again. It’s pricey but the one MTH sells works well for this. Add one block at a time and keep checking your signal. The signal will only cover so much track before it sort of maxes out. They give you 4 channels to use. Use 3 and it’s nice to have one as spare where you can just switch wires over if needed. When the layout gets to large. There’s always Super TIU. But I agree. You should see a 10 on one block during testing if that’s all that’s powered up. You can see a few blips at times. I wouldn’t worry to much. My layout is all Gargraves flex. I can see 10’s in a 3 foot section but every now and then it may pop a bad number. In that case it could just be some crud on the track or something. What you want is consistency through each section.

Are your connections from the TIU to the distribution board tight ? I like using solder-type "gold" plated banana plugs. I dislike using the "screw" type.

What about the feeder connections from the board to the track - are they solid at the track ? Soldered ?

If the signal gets stronger as the engine gets nearer the feeder wire, it might mean the DCS signal is not propagating very well along the rest of the track rail. Are your track joint connections tight ? Is the track clean ?

How far apart are the track feeders ? Do you have enough ?   

When you hit the read button it puts all DCS engines into inactive state    They should be dead until you do a startup     Make sure you scroll all the way down on your remote into the inactive list   Highlight the one you want to startup and press the thumbwheel   It will move that engine into the active list   Then hit startup 

@Gerald Jackson posted:

Please purchase the DCS O Gauge Companion from the MTH website. I assume that the wires are minimum 16 gauge stranded (18 gauge produces the results that you are experiencing).      

Are you saying even the drops need to be 16 ga. ? I started using 18 ga. for the drops that go from terminal bd. to track ground and the same for hot wire from relay to track. Wire to relay is 16ga.

@bluelinec4 posted:

When you hit the read button it puts all DCS engines into inactive state    They should be dead until you do a startup     Make sure you scroll all the way down on your remote into the inactive list   Highlight the one you want to startup and press the thumbwheel   It will move that engine into the active list   Then hit startup

I did not realize read button put all DCS engines into inactive. I was under the impression it just read which engines were on the track receiving signal.

@Richie C. posted:

Are your connections from the TIU to the distribution board tight ? I like using solder-type "gold" plated banana plugs. I dislike using the "screw" type.

What about the feeder connections from the board to the track - are they solid at the track ? Soldered ?

If the signal gets stronger as the engine gets nearer the feeder wire, it might mean the DCS signal is not propagating very well along the rest of the track rail. Are your track joint connections tight ? Is the track clean ?

How far apart are the track feeders ? Do you have enough ? 

To answer your excellent questions. I have some expensive/high grade screw gold banana plugs. Screws and offset and 180 degrees opposite and have excellent conductivity.

Feeder connections are solid 14ga. from TIU to remote TB then 16ga. to relay (that controls block power) and 16ga. to track outside rail which the connections to the track are soldered.

Now you hit on some problems with track connections, cleanliness of track. This was only a temporary hook up to get an idea on how layout will look and if my design on paper matches my design in my head. So connections were not a priority. That said, the best signal I can get with engine on the track with soldered connections that I just cleaned is between 7 and 9 (not a 10 to be found) It is a 37" gargraves flex track. I'll double check the connections to the TB and relay. Also relay contacts. I may temp. by-pass the relay just to eliminate that as a suspect.

Thanks for your help.

@Aegis21 posted:

I did not realize read button put all DCS engines into inactive. I was under the impression it just read which engines were on the track receiving signal.

The read button looks at your equipment   For an engine to be active after the Read it needs to be powered on and started up otherwise it is considered inactive and it is moved to the inactive list   If the engine is just sitting on the track not started up its inactive   If you didnt hot startup button and have the engine idling with sounds on its inactive

@Dave_C posted:

One thing DCS doesn’t like. Is splitting the signal more than once. You want your paired wires from the TIU to go to a terminal strip. From there they should only go to a section of isolated track or a block. Not to another strip and then split again. It’s pricey but the one MTH sells works well for this. Add one block at a time and keep checking your signal. The signal will only cover so much track before it sort of maxes out. They give you 4 channels to use. Use 3 and it’s nice to have one as spare where you can just switch wires over if needed. When the layout gets to large. There’s always Super TIU. But I agree. You should see a 10 on one block during testing if that’s all that’s powered up. You can see a few blips at times. I wouldn’t worry to much. My layout is all Gargraves flex. I can see 10’s in a 3 foot section but every now and then it may pop a bad number. In that case it could just be some crud on the track or something. What you want is consistency through each section.

Hi Dave, First thanks for responding. The output of my TIU goes to a distribution TB and that connection is less than 12" (more like 3"-4") each TIU output supplying one district TB. Then it splits to three remote TB's that are separate power blocks. (star wiring method, I think) From each of those are the connections to the tracks made, comm is direct and hot is relay switched.

I am using three TIU outputs, one for each district (3 districts and one unused) Var1 is district 1, fixed 1 is District 2, fixed 2 is District 3, with the forth as a spare. I also have the Watch Dog boxes attached to the distribution terminal Bd. near the TIU's. Maybe I did not make those correctly. Those I'll disconnect when I do the relay by-pass to see if the relay is causing and issue. I won't need the WD with a direct connection to TIU.

Thanks

@Porschev posted:

Make sure you have correctly installed 22 uH chokes in any Lionel or ERR upgarded locomotives otherwise they will kill the DCS signal.

Well I am 90% sure I did not install 22 uH chokes in my Lionel ERR upgrade. I am going by the directions I followed for installing the AC commander board and rail sounds board. They only had me put on the motor two capacitors. So where do the chokes go and where can I buy them?

@bluelinec4 posted:

The read button looks at your equipment   For an engine to be active after the Read it needs to be powered on and started up otherwise it is considered inactive and it is moved to the inactive list   If the engine is just sitting on the track not started up its inactive   If you didnt hot startup button and have the engine idling with sounds on its inactive

Got it now! Thanks for the clarity.