Discussion with MTH @ Nat'l Train show

Sadly, that is one of the main reasons that formed my hard decision to leave S scale.  At 62 years of age I simply can't wait for several years for product to "possibly" be available.

 

If I'm going to have a small layout with a LOT of variety in equipment, it pretty much had to be HO.

 

Coming from a Frisco background, it was hard to do without a VO1000 and other key items.

 

I can totally understand. My problem is that I came from O and no matter how hard I try I can't fall in love with HO. I've pretty much decided I will have to have multiple layouts. I'll do the best I can in S, My son will have his Railking 3 rail O layout, and I'll be collecting PRR 2 Rail O scale pieces for the day that I can hopefully build a decent 2 rail layout. At least if they are gonna sit on the shelf they will look better

 

 

I think any new development in S is a good thing! Maybe no new tooling yet but just the fact that we will be seeing PS-3 with all the sounds and control is a big step ahead for the old S Helper tooling. We could see Lionel step it up another notch now that MTH is in the game.  Time will tell I guess. 

This is why I maintain that both MTH and Lionel need to start making appearances where S Gaugers flock: S Fests, S Sprees and NASG Conventions.

 

Although they help to introduce S to the outside world, York, the World's Greatest Hobby and National Train Shows are not the best places to judge the S market as a stand alone entity.

 

It’s important also to remember that SHS wasn’t built in a day, it was built over a 20+ year period.  Their origin goes back to 1989.

 

First, what was S-Helper Service did just that: Provide help, financially and if I recall correctly some product development.  American Models was the recipient.  AM’s RS3’s, FA2’s USRA 4-6-2’s, GP35’s and Heavyweight passenger cars were the result of SHS’s early involvement. 

 

Plus even earlier, the founders of SHS were members of the New Jersey club that “helped” AM with their bay window caboose.

 

I've assembled this brief chronology of SHS based on catalogs I have.  Admittedly, some of it is sketchy.

 

SHS began as their own product line began in 1994 with one car: the PS2- two bay covered hopper.  The outside braced boxcar, stock car and SW9 appeared by 1997, with the GSC flat car variants, steel rebuilt boxcar and extended-vision caboose being set to arrive late the same year.

 

1999 saw the announcement of the F3’s, PS2-three bay covered hoppers and S-Trax.

 

2000 we were still waiting for the F3’s.  The SW1 and starter sets were announced.

 

2001 and still waiting for the F3’s.  Woodside reefers and double sheathed boxcars announced.

 

2002: the F3’s show up around October, going by my photographic records.  As I recall, the F7’s were announced in late 2001/early 2002.

 

USRA 55 ton hopper variations and ore cars were announced either 2002 or 2003.  There’s a gap here in my catalogs.

 

2003: 2-8-0 announced.  F7’s arrive. 

 

2004: NW2, SW8, E7(cancelled) and Bay Window Caboose(cancelled) announced.  We were still waiting on the 2-8-0’s.

 

2005: No new tooling product announcements.

 

2006: 2-8-0’s arrive, again based on photographic record.

 

2007: No new tooling product announcements.

 

2008: Covered USRA twin hopper announced.

 

2009: Bethlehem Steel 55 ton twin hopper announced.  Never delivered due to Sanda Kan reorganization.

 

Overall, freight cars came out pretty much within 12 months of announcement, but I think this pretty much shows that even in the "good old days" there were delays involved.  New roadnames for most existing freight cars and SW's trickled in over the years. The reason for the cancellation of the E7 and bay window caboose was because the 2-8-0 sucked up more resources that originally anticipated.

 

SHS essentially "spoiled" us.  It's been said by some they were the best, most responsive train manufacturer in any scale.

 

That's a hard act to follow.

 

Rusty

I have a different view Rusty. I think that S gauge needs to come out of the shadows and align more with the National show and the NMRA. This is where the new blood in the hobby is. This is where modelers in other scales can cross over.

 

IMHO, there may not be enough S modelers buying enough rehash SHS products to warrant MTH making new tooling. I applaud MTH for being at the Nat'l show. That's more than I can say for Lionel. Having an S display at the show is the only way they will bring in new buyers form other scales. If they don't bring in new blood there won't be much new product made going forward I'm afraid.

I'm not suggesting S manufacturers or groups not show up at the national shows.  Nowhere in my little epistle have I said that.

 

What I'm suggesting is the two major manufacturers show up where S Gaugers congregate.  None of those events are "members only."

 

They need to talk directly to those already in the scale, too.

 

IMHO

 

Rusty

 

Rusty,

 

I can see some problems if the manufactures directly respond to individuals requests at any event. They could go to a show which has people like yourself only seeking new products to meet a much finer requirement, and there is nothing wrong that but if they decided this was the only way to go then they could be disadvantaging the hi-rail fraternity which currently is the core group. 

 

Likewise, if they went to a meet solely of hi-rail people, then they could be swayed not to support you, Ed and others. 

 

 

 

Either way it could actually do more harm than help.

 

 

 

I don't see a viable means of how 'S' manufactures can collect accurate data as to what individuals needs are and as to what proportion they set up manufacturing to support the     split ratio, any other ideas?

 

 

I love it when people put words in my keyboard.

 

S Sprees, S Fests AND NASG Nationals ARE NOT scale only events.  In fact, the bulk of these events tends to lean towards the Flyer side. 

 

They are open to anyone interested in S, be it Flyer, Hirail, Scale, Narrow Gauge.  No membership in ANY organization needed.  They're even open to someone who comes in out of the rain...

 

When I advocate, I advocate for S as a whole, not just the scale side.  And it's the manufacturers that have the tough job of trying to understand the various facets of S.

 

Exactly how can MTH and Lionel attempt to understand the existing S market if they have no exposure to it, other than the few S folks that attend general shows?  Even forums such as OGR and Yahoo exposes only a minority of those interested in S.

 

What better place to meet and talk to the cross section of the scale (or gauge, if you prefer) without the clutter of other scales than at the aforementioned events?

 

S is a three legged stool: Flyer, Hirail and Scale.  It won't stand with one leg missing.

 

Rusty

 

Funny... American Models, the former S Helper Service and S Scale America figured out how to attract Flyer, Hirail and Scale and make some money at it.

 

So, do people unfamiliar or vaguely familiar with S scale/gauge or a few S folks (be they Flyer, hirail or scale oriented) walking up to a manufacturer's display at a national-type train show have the right to represent all of S? 

 

Do people on the various forums have the right?  I guess we didn't have the right to encourage DCC compatibility and scale wheels on the SD70's with Lionel, then.  After all, there were so few of us representing that obnoxious faction of S.  Sorry...

 

You'll interact with more S folks at Spree's, Fests and NASG cons than any national hobby show or online forum.  Seems like a good place to start to me.

 

Nowhere in any of my postings have I indicated "S scale only" and the heck with all the rest.  Sure, I've shown an easy-peasy way to make the cylindrical hopper operate in a scale environment, but I've also shown how to make it look and operate better in the Flyer/Hirail world with AM hirail trucks and SHS couplers.

 

I will freely admit that in today's world, anything designed to the "traditional standards" of old Gilbert Flyer will draw little to no interest from the scale folks.  The waffle side boxcar is looking like it's going to be one of these.  Now, do I think Lionel shouldn't make it that way?  No.  There's a bunch of Flyer folks that will probably buy them regardless.  But if the Flyer guys don't buy them, the scale folks certainly won't.

 

I've been one of the few looking at the Flyerchief Berks from the perspective of the common consumer and not the scale faction.  Yeah, it would be nice if the assumed liberties aren't taken, but it's not the end of the S world if they wind up looking like the O27 baby Berks.

 

Rusty

Perhaps I should take a leaf from an earlier reply you made about my post putting words in 'your keyboard', are you not doing the same now. That reply was very generic in that it didn't mention specific events and then you quoted in bold, specifics, as if I had mentioned them, where did I actually say that?

 

Now you go into great detail about certain manufacturers, where again I was generic in not specifying any.

 

Yes, those manufacturers you mention have made a bit of money but perhaps the one thing they are possibly up against is the brand name of Flyer itself, S for years has been associated by the many with the Gilbert company and it will be difficult to wrestle that bond away.

 

As I said, an individual or a small number of people don't have the right to represent the many on their own needs or specific requirements, certainly voice them to manufacturers as an idea and let them take up the mantle as to if there is any mileage in it. All they are interested in is making a profit, what we want is probably secondary to them. If the consumer votes with their pocket then they need to start addressing the problem and understand what they should really be doing.

 

Although you promote and lobby Lionel for changes to its product line when it has flaws,  as to what it must do to correct the errors to appease you, I don't seem to see many, if any postings of similar 'wants' for the other manufacturers you throw up which you say are doing a great job, but surely they are also not perfect in every way! Perhaps I must have have missed those, probably not important enough.

 

For someone that says they are for S in all factions, you have a funny way of showing it. My perception is that as soon as Flyer, tinplate or hi-rail is mentioned you get on the defensive and look for any means to dispel what is said in favour of your own agenda, most intriguing!

 

 

Again, you miss my point.  You seem to totally disregard the fact that I happen to believe it would be advantageous for Lionel and MTH to show up where a large amount of S folk gather along with the other events they do. 

 

Exactly what is wrong with that? 

 

Or do you think a few select S gauges meet in smoke filled rooms at these events issuing demands to the manufacturers?

 

Rusty

 

 

UKaflyer,

 

Sorry, just don't see it. Rusty has made many posts on this forum, and he's been a consistent supporter of S scale railroading--in EVERY shape and form. His opinions carry a great deal of weight with me, and in this instance, he's right.

 

Jeff C

Well, I'm a scale guy to the core and Rusty has been very helpful to me both on and off this forum.
I think he speaks well for all sides of the S equation.
Good point in mentioning SHS, etc., and the effort made to work for both scaler and hi rail guys.
That needs to continue for any company to be successful in S.
As a scaler, I resent the idea that I'm going to have to pay significantly more to get scale wheels, at least that is what I'm given to understand.
But the scale must pull together to attract new models and I'm for any venue that makes that happen!
Funny, when in 2 rail O, there always folks bellyaching that too much was made for the 3 rail side forcing too much compromise in fidelity on the 2 rail side.
Ok Abe said it best, right here in Bloomington, "a house (scale) divided against itself cannot stand."
Point made.
Your turn.

Ol' Abe.  Stupid spellcheck.
Doesn't know history.

I think a big problem is that the cost of tooling has gotten so high. Ken Silvestri of BLI says it costs $250k to tool up a steam model in HO. That is a lot of models to move just to recoup the tooling cost.

Tooling cost for HO and S are about the same. Think how much easier it is to recoup the investment in HO than in S. Not a slam on S......just numbers.

 

BTW $250K for a complete loco is a deal.  Tooling cost in Asia/China is climbing fast...as are wages etc. Everyone is tooling everything they can....knowing in 2 years it will cost a lot more.

Rusty,

 

I have not missed your point at all. There is nothing wrong with people at events voicing views on what they see as a possible new product and I would do the same and I did actually mention that, you seem to have missed that line.

 

My point is what percentage of the overall 'S' fraternity do you actually find at these events?  The figure of 8,000 gets mentioned as being an estimate of total 'S' people, if there are say 250 at a meet this represents just 3% of that total, which I feel is on the low side to represent the majority.  250 like minded people may want a new item, great, problem is if the other 7,750 disagree it could be an expensive mistake. Waffle car comes to mind here.

What's the circulation of the S Gauge magazine, if anyone knows?

 

Wouldn't on-line surveys provide more comprehensive (and less expensive) information

than attending multiple train meets/conventions which are limited by geographic access?

 

I'm also thinking that 20% of the hobbyists buy 80% of the product, so surveying that committed, passionate subset would be key to knowing what might sell.

 

On the other hand these are tiny companies (<100 people, sometimes much less) so high quality marketing research is not going to be readily affordable for them.