Help picking a control system

Hi Dave!

I am planning for up to 4 simultaneous operators running single small engines on 34” diameter minimum curves.  No need for me to synchronize two engine speeds.  I won’t have ‘cruise control’ so will have to be involved with engines changing grades.  I want to maintain the ability to run one old loco at a time periodically using conventional control.  I also don’t want to break the bank, and want to keep wiring simple.  So I am running the layout using multiple variable voltage (traditional) transformers - all synched and at the same voltage.  Normal operation is set at 14VAC track power, using Lion Chief remote controllers for each engine.    Each of the 4 transformers powers a section of the single-track mainline layout.  Within each section there are switches etc, but the point is my layout is essentially a loop-to-loop - so dividing it into 4 sections is pretty straightforward.

When I want to run a conventional train, I have isolated the layout into 4 big sections, along with sidings that can be powered down/turned off.  So I run the old train using one of the conventional transformers in one of the sections.  When I’m done, I park the old loco back on its isolated track and power that siding down, return all 4 of the transformers to 14VAC, and turn on the sidings for the Lion Chief engines.

So I have local control panels with switching and rely on local uncoupling tracks or fingers.  Z-Stuff block signals work fine if your operators look at the light before barreling ahead!    Railsounds and Lion Chief sounds are good enough for me.  Also $20 Little Sounds from Ngineering.com for freight, cattle or more exotic noises work fine vs $400 3-car cattle car sets with TMCC or Legacy triggers.

How you plan to use the layout, your level of comfort with troubleshooting electronics and your budget all factor into your decision.  Hope that helps!

Given the fact that production of a volume of MTH product is somewhat uncertain, I'd be looking at Lionel Legacy to start.  The Legacy system runs TMCC and Legacy, so it covers a lot of ground.  Obviously, you can add DCS in the future as well.  I run both DCS and Legacy/TMCC on my layout, and I also have both the MTH and Lionel WiFi capability.

With my configuration, I have the ability to run pretty much anything, conventional, Legacy/TMCC, or DCS.  I personally use the Lionel PowerHouse 180 bricks to power my layout, the MTH TIU gives me conventional operation with it's two variable channels.

If you're going 3-rail, I personally wouldn't recommend DCC as that's incompatible with DCS or Legacy/TMCC at the same time.

Since I don't use SCARM, I can't comment on the track plan, you might consider posting a graphic of it for folks that don't have that track planning application.

track plan added, i am doing 3 rail o-gauge. What about the lionel layout control system, does that work with any of that, i like that too because of the ipad integration etc

Yes, the LCS works in conjunction with the Legacy system, I forgot to mention I also have that installed.

Well, I'm going to chime in here because eventually someone will.  There is a whole new method to power and control model trains and it's referred to as BPRC (Battery Powered Remote Control).  Unfortunately, no new equipment is currently sold using this operating method, so you would have to modify any engines you acquire.  On the plus side, you could acquire "dead" engines very cheaply, do the gutting and installing, and have a very nice engine that will not need a transformer of any kind to run.  The Remote Control part of this operation is through a smart phone or tablet.

Search the forum for BPRC and read the threads to see how it works and how its being constantly improved.

Chuck

@PRR1950

thats very interesting never even heard of that before but i will check that out, thanks!

@gunrunnerjohn

Ok thats cool LCS seems cool and i always look at the legacy stuff and because it says "legacy" i think its an older system or something not as current as LCS but that shows you how much i know. Do you know if rail sounds or things like digitrax is worth while or some type of adding sound and realism to the layout? i have been wondering if there are enhancements or things folks do to make the engines run like real locos and sound like them too along with track and animations etc

@Hannibal-St Joseph RR

Thanks for those tips i will look into those as well!

You can spend an infinite amount of time customizing and enhancing your locomotives and rolling stock.  I've done custom lighting and sounds for a variety of rolling stock and locomotives.  There are lots of folks doing stuff like that, and countless threads here detailing some of the work.  There are also tons of ways to add sound to the layout and rolling stock, even I have created a method.

MP3 Universal Sound Module

Since you're just starting, I'll second gunrunnerjohn's recommendation for Legacy; if I were just starting with command control, that's where I'd go, for one reason: designated remote control.  Once you learn where the keys are on a remote control, you will get used to the "feel" of it and can watch your trains run rather than watching your phone. Since MTH has discontinued the production of the DCS remote, you will essentially be forced to run your trains with your phone or tablet. Even if you can find a DCS remote for sale at a reasonable price, it won't be compatible with the new TIUs. Lionel is (at least for now) producing a designated remote, giving you more choices regarding the way you run your trains.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Given the fact that production of a volume of MTH product is somewhat uncertain, I'd be looking at Lionel Legacy to start.  The Legacy system runs TMCC and Legacy, so it covers a lot of ground.  Obviously, you can add DCS in the future as well.  I run both DCS and Legacy/TMCC on my layout, and I also have both the MTH and Lionel WiFi capability.

With my configuration, I have the ability to run pretty much anything, conventional, Legacy/TMCC, or DCS.  I personally use the Lionel PowerHouse 180 bricks to power my layout, the MTH TIU gives me conventional operation with it's two variable channels.

If you're going 3-rail, I personally wouldn't recommend DCC as that's incompatible with DCS or Legacy/TMCC at the same time.

Since I don't use SCARM, I can't comment on the track plan, you might consider posting a graphic of it for folks that don't have that track planning application.

I respectfully have to ask why production is uncertain? Atlas has already produced the first locomotive with PS 3.0 with the release of there new run of 44 ton switchers. Have already announced new Amtrak engines with PS 3.0 and there is still plenty of stock out there in Hobby shops. Atlas and MTH are still releasing products with DCS.

Now with that being said I agree with the other stuff John said about Legacy/TMCC lots products from Atlas, 3rd Rail and Lionel.

Do whatever floats your Boat.

I will state this if your go with DCS and you have a friend or someone you who can loan you a tmcc command base you add a cable and you can pretty much control all stuff until you go legacy for a little less money.   

@davehall83  A lot of good information has been presented so far in this topic.  You didn't specifically ask about Lion Chief, but since no one else has mentioned it so far, there are a couple of points about it that may interest you.

Using their own handheld remote (and in some cases Bluetooth control on a smart device) Lion Chief Locomotives can run concurrently with any of the typical 3-rail O gauge command control systems (TMCC, Legacy and DCS).  LC locomotives can run off the same fixed track power (14-18VAC) as other command Locomotives using the aforementioned control systems.

The original Lion Chief locomotives (now sometimes referred to as LC 1.0)  only run from their own dedicated remote or the Universal LionChief Remote.

Next came LionChief with Bluetooth which has the same capabilities as before with the addition of Bluetooth control, more sound options and the ability to be controlled from the LionChief app on a smart device.

After that came Lion Chief Plus which included the previous features and added remote controlled electro-couplers and more sounds.

Currently there's Lion Chief 2.0 that builds on previous features and adds the ability to respond to Legacy commands.

There's obviously more to the feature sets, but I think this gives a decent overview of LionChief control.  Most of the later Lion Chief locos have a good sound set: engine, chuffing, horn, bell, crew and tower communications, and a few others.  Most, if not all, of the steamers have smoke units as you'd expect.

In my opinion, the Lion chief locomotives lack some of the more elaborate detailing, features, and breadth of sounds as the Legacy Locos, but they also are significantly less expensive.  I have a mix of older conventional, Lion Chief, TMCC and Legacy on my layout and enjoy them all.

I hope this is helpful.

Firstly good luck on the new layout, as everyone says Legacy is a good start and covers a lot of ground. I certainly wouldn’t limit yourself and also look into DCS down the road. If your in 3 rail O I would just stay away from DCC. As far as sounds go we are limited to what each system has you don’t mix and match. DCS does allow you to change and upload some new and different sounds. Newer LEGACY locomotives are coming with a selection of whistles and bells. As far as sound system execution it’s hard to beat the sound and bass of a legacy locomotive.

this video is actually a year old now but here’s the start of my clubs new layout, hopefully some time soon we’ll get some more videos out. You can also look at other locomotive videos we have to hear the different sounds Lionel has to offer

It isn't an exclusive choice. One can start with either DCS or Legacy/TMCC  and add the other later if you wish, but at the moment it is difficult to get components for either system. It seems March - June may be when we start seeing units. There is time to explore.

If you think you will ever have DCS there are some wiring best practices that it would be wise to follow as you are laying track. I know you have a wiring thread going so I won't get into that here. Just giving you a heads up because it wouldn't be easy to do it after the track is down and wired. Legacy will work just fine with it.

@Shawn_Chronister posted:

I respectfully have to ask why production is uncertain? Atlas has already produced the first locomotive with PS 3.0 with the release of there new run of 44 ton switchers. Have already announced new Amtrak engines with PS 3.0 and there is still plenty of stock out there in Hobby shops. Atlas and MTH are still releasing products with DCS.

Until the "new" MTH demonstrates it has staying power in the marketplace, I remain skeptical. 

• The fact that the new MTH has absolutely no repair capability and are depending on dealers and ASC's for all the repairs is a bad sign.
• There are no new current or planned MTH ASC training classes.
• The price of electronic parts for repair skyrocketed, making any repairs more expensive.
• Right now, most electronic repair boards are unavailable.
• New releases have been relegated to a few locomotive and rolling stock types with different paint jobs.
• Atlas has never been a major player in the O-scale market, so it remains to be seen if they'll pick up the pace.

And the beat goes on...

IMO legacy is the way to go.  Connection to the layout is simple, upgrade to  command is easy.  The fact that atlas picked up the mth control system muddies the water since earlier atlas products were all tmcc.  I personally have no interest in building out control panels that look like they belong on star trek.  That isnt why im in this hobby.

"I respectfully have to ask why production is uncertain? "

We don't even know the address or email address of the proposed MTH successor company that will be producing DCS components such as the TIU/WIU.  That's reason enough for some caution over a year after the initial announcements and the multiple changes in plans that have occurred since then.  Lots of questions that haven't been answered as yet and lots of capabilities that haven't been demonstrated as yet.  Maybe everything will go fine.  Let's hope so.

On the positive side, I don't think the effort and expense would have been expended on the new MTH parts site if there was no hope of a future.

@turkey_hollow_rr posted:

On the positive side, I don't think the effort and expense would have been expended on the new MTH parts site if there was no hope of a future.

I think there's certainly "hope" for the future.  OTOH, "hope" isn't a guarantee of success.  I also "hope" for the success of MTH in the market place.  While I don't ever expect it to come back to it's former glory, I would like to see more than a dribbling of different paint jobs on a few products, IMO that's not going to support the company long term.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think there's certainly "hope" for the future.  OTOH, "hope" isn't a guarantee of success.  I also "hope" for the success of MTH in the market place.  While I don't ever expect it to come back to it's former glory, I would like to see more than a dribbling of different paint jobs on a few products, IMO that's not going to support the company long term.

Maybe "hope" isn't the right word. There must have been some business case that made sense. I don't disagree it won't ever be like it was. If the model of licensing of DCS components doesn't keep that group in business it will certainly fall away. Atlas may never have been a major player in O but they must see some potential business there, and they can now offer models with either control system. I've never heard of a guarantee in business.

You should also know that most, if not all, of Lionel's newer command control loco's come with Voice Control and Blue Tooth availability to operate the engine via Lionel's App (a free download), so that at least partial integration with iPhones and other devices is possible, albeit not as elaborate, without having to add their LCS system.

I would recommend that you get a current Lionel catalogue and look at the Legacy features as well as the chart of features for the various LC models.