Excellent analysis and thank you for all the photos!

Sounds like I may need to “void the warranty” on my engines when they arrive. Another forum poster reported getting a motor short fault code on their engine after powering it for the first time. Based on your analysis, it seems like pinched motor leads could be a common problem on these.

Wow! More quality build stuff! That blue wire laying right on the flywheel takes the cake....pathetic.

I don't know how anyone has the guts to preorder Lionel anymore.

@RickO posted:

I don't know how anyone has the guts to preorder Lionel anymore.

Well, so do I - but I have a Daylight pre-order coming sometime. Not impressed with the assembly but they may have rushed some of this production run out trying to make pre-Christmas delivery. I know that’s not an excuse.

Hats off to Dave for an impressive piece of engineering. Now all you guys have to do is get someone over to the factory to do some real quality control.

Good for you to do this Bruk. Maybe you know this already but if not could you verify with Dave if the new motor control board now has short circuit protection if the motor fails or in this case one of the leads shorts? Since they continue to use these Canon motors with their high failure rate it would be good to know if that will take out a board like it did with the RCMCs.

Pete

Gads, look at all those messy wires all over the place.  Why, a plate of spaghetti is more appetising!  Not for me guys.  I'll take a dish of "clean as can be" O scale live steam locomotives* anyday...LOL

No, the above statement isn't out of the Sunday funny papers.  Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

Enjoy your model railroad adventure.  Remember, you're a member of The World's Greatest Hobby.  It doesn't get any better than this!

Joe

* Bassett-Lowke spirit fired is understood.

@Norton posted:

Hats off to Dave for an impressive piece of engineering. Now all you guys have to do is get someone over to the factory to do some real quality control.

Good for you to do this Bruk. Maybe you know this already but if not could you verify with Dave if the new motor control board now has short circuit protection if the motor fails or in this case one of the leads shorts? Since they continue to use these Canon motors with their high failure rate it would be good to know if that will take out a board like it did with the RCMCs.

Pete

I'd like to know that too. It should not be the case that you have to wonder whether to open up an engine before you even put power to it to see whether a wire has been pinched and a short is likely. As on recent form Lionel won't have a lot of replacement parts on hand, I'd be worried that if a control board was shorted there'd be no fix available any time soon, if at all.

Yikes, that is scary. Well, I didn't order one, but still is scary considering this could be any or all engines having any or all of the issues shown. Not good at all.

Isn’t that a $2k locomotive?  Sheesh.

That's a real shame. 

The engineers that developed these packages should be taking notes from master builder Bruk, clearly he’s had to re-design a few things, and obviously repair a bunch of things, ......not only should Lionel NOT void his warranty for opening it up and saving the day, they should give him the labor hours as credit on his next parts purchase ....or something!...good grief!....great work Bruk, .....disaster averted,.....well done!..

Pat

Question,    was there a failure causing you to open it up?   Or curiosity?

@Alabama Joe posted:

Question,    was there a failure causing you to open it up?   Or curiosity?

Bruk can no doubt answer for himself, but I think that the explanation is in his earlier thread found here:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...-4470-2031411-issues

Incidentally, I think that most or at least many of us benefit from these "look inside" postings, which were pioneered by @Alex M. Also from the input that comes direct from Dave O. at Lionel and Jon Z. (formerly of Lionel).

@Alabama Joe posted:

Question,    was there a failure causing you to open it up?   Or curiosity?

Curiosity,

Everything I get, I take apart. Its just how I am. I like to know what I’m working with so I can troubleshoot/fix it later. I also like to see how the “factory” lays things out.  

This goes for most things.

@Bruk posted:

Curiosity,

Everything I get, I take apart. Its just how I am. I like to know what I’m working with so I can troubleshoot/fix it later. I also like to see how the “factory” lays things out.  

This goes for most things.

Thanks for the reply.    

Wow what a breakdown! It's amazing what they cram in these expensive locomotives now. Guys they just need to get better on the execution end of things.

The pinched wires and the bad crimp are pretty clearly a rush thing. The board mounting too close to the drive might be a design issue.

I agree with Pat, Lionel should send Bruk a fancy thank you note and a check for his time. Just forward this series of photos to the factory supervisor in China. Before work tomorrow, the assembly team should spend one hour reviewing these photos and he implored to double check each of these points before closing up the loco shell.

@Bruk posted:

Curiosity,

Everything I get, I take apart. Its just how I am. I like to know what I’m working with so I can troubleshoot/fix it later. I also like to see how the “factory” lays things out.  

This goes for most things.

Perhaps this one Bruk, you might call it a preemptive strike,.....surely you were able fix things on your terms, and not when it would have been too late!....good save!....that could have been disastrous,....

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Perhaps this one Bruk, you might call it a preemptive strike,.....surely you were able fix things on your terms, and not when it would have been too late!....good save!....that could have been disastrous,....

Pat

I’m glad I did,

That blue motor wire insulation was cut down enough to expose the wire inside.  I guarantee at some point it would have ground to the frame or motor bracket.

I'm a big taken back by the continuing QC issues for what could have been an outstanding release!  The pinched wires I see way too often opening up newer Legacy stuff.

FWIW, I'm planning on taking any locomotive with that crappy Canon motor apart and adding a PTC in series with the motor.  One with a 2-3A trip rating would probably be a pretty good choice.  They'll pass 3-4 amps for quite a while, more than enough for any normal operation, but they'll trip very fast on a really high 7-8 amps, which just may save the board when the Canon motor croaks!

Belfuse 0ZRP0135FF1A from Digikey would be a good first choice for the PTC.

@RickO posted:

Wow! More quality build stuff! That blue wire laying right on the flywheel takes the cake....pathetic.

I don't know how anyone has the guts to preorder Lionel anymore.

I will give them the benefit of the doubt, that no one was able to go over and “double check” the progress with production in general because of the pandemic and travel restrictions.....

@Bruk posted:

I will give them the benefit of the doubt, that no one was able to go over and “double check” the progress with production in general because of the pandemic and travel restrictions.....

Well. This sort of thing was occurring "pre pandemic". I own one of the h10s from a couple years back. Stripped screws and pinched wires were found on these as well.

While not as serious as yours. I also had a wire rubbing on the encoder wheel.

Then there's the overpowered audio board causing the sounds to cut out, silly colors....yadda...yadda.

I don't think these issues will stop until the cost of warranty repair is no longer covered by the inflated purchase price. Or folks start returning defective items instead of living with them.

Not directing anything towards you Bruk. At what point do folks stop making excuses for Lionel?

IMO. Too much focus is on Lion chief whizz bang whatever.

Is there anything else in life that you spend $600.... $1000.... $2000 and expect to fix it out of the box?

I ordered this engine and am awating its  Arrival,with all of These potential Problems and a possible failure would Lionel do a complete dissasembly and make the appropriate corrections upon return for whatever failed.I Hope that Lionel replies to this post,$2000 is a lot of money for this type of workmanship.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm a big taken back by the continuing QC issues for what could have been an outstanding release!  The pinched wires I see way too often opening up newer Legacy stuff.

FWIW, I'm planning on taking any locomotive with that crappy Canon motor apart and adding a PTC in series with the motor.  One with a 2-3A trip rating would probably be a pretty good choice.  They'll pass 3-4 amps for quite a while, more than enough for any normal operation, but they'll trip very fast on a really high 7-8 amps, which just may save the board when the Canon motor croaks!

Belfuse 0ZRP0135FF1A from Digikey would be a good first choice for the PTC.

Thanks for the suggestion Jon. I think I’ll order a bunch of these and install them when I do my QC inspection. The digikey site says these are self-resetting fuses. So do they reset like a circuit breaker when the short is no longer present?

Correct, a PTC will interrupt the current when it sees an overload and restore the connection with the current goes away and it cools down.  I used them for all my ERR Cruise Commander Lite installs as that board was particularly sensitive to a motor stall, it would cook on the spot.  Never lost one with the PTC installed.

wow bruk nice work. love to see these types of threads. when I see eric segal review engines like this it makes me want one. then I see photos like yours and say to much inside to go wrong.

with steamers I feel the smoke features have to be used. desiels not so much. so when using these smoke features all the time. they need periodic maintenance to them. only trouble is they are not always easy to get to as your photos point out.

seem our trains are becomming like cars. designed for the assembly worker,but if I need access to the main air conditioner part the whole dash must come out to get to it. plus dont buy one made on a monday or a friday as the old saying goes.

I will say lionels spaghetti I mean electronics inside there engines have gotten a lot neater since the early tmcc days. just wish the assemblers took more pride in there work. maybe then most of these issuses would not happen.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Correct, a PTC will interrupt the current when it sees an overload and restore the connection with the current goes away and it cools down.  I used them for all my ERR Cruise Commander Lite installs as that board was particularly sensitive to a motor stall, it would cook on the spot.  Never lost one with the PTC installed.

Jon,

Would you recommend these be placed on most, if not all, DC motors?  I guess a better question would be - Is there any downside of doing so?

Thx.

@Bruk From your photos I think I can see just 4 (or maybe 6) screws that hold the boiler shell on, and another 6 for the tender. Is that correct? Not that I feel keen on inspecting mine when (if ever) it arrives, but it's better to be prepared.

Some recent Legacy/VL steamers have been easier to disassemble than earlier ones or their TMCC predecessors. Obviously getting any of them back together without damage is always a challenge.

@Bruk posted:

I’m glad I did,

That blue motor wire insulation was cut down enough to expose the wire inside.  I guarantee at some point it would have ground to the frame or motor bracket.

Burk,

Couple of repair technique questions-

1. How will you go about the repair of the stripped screws?
   Will you tap with a larger screw?
2. Will you use CA glue on the boiler face or some other repair?

By the way, thanks for the all the photos!

@DaveGG posted:

Jon,

Would you recommend these be placed on most, if not all, DC motors?  I guess a better question would be - Is there any downside of doing so?

Thx.

No big downside that I can see, I've never seen them affect the performance.  The one time I had one tripping was an older Williams steamer, when I tested the motor, it was drawing two-three times the current it should, so the PTC was just doing it's job!

FWIW, I think the screws were probably a product of an overactive power screwdriver like my experience with the Legacy H10 tender.  In my case, they simply destroyed the screw head, I had to drill it with a reverse drill and use a screw extractor to get it out!

They're all about quick assembling these, and there's no quality control that I can see.

@RickO posted:

IMO. Too much focus is on Lion chief whizz bang whatever.

Is there anything else in life that you spend $600.... $1000.... $2000 and expect to fix it out of the box?

I agree. It seems like Lionel is spread a bit thin. They have a lot of great ideas/products. They just don't seem to execute them all equally well. Apparently it's possible to build these highly scaled models as other manufacturers are doing it so I don't know if anybody can say "well they're so delicate, it happens". Either way, this post will have me opening any new locomotives I get for inspection.

Smart phones and computers are the other other items that I can think of that I fix out of the box by getting rid of the bad software/firmware and adding my own. It sucks but it's just the way of the world from my perspective.

@gunrunnerjohn
Hi John, sorry for the dumb questions, but here goes.  You mentioned installing a PTC in line with the motor.  So you that means interrupt the inbound power wire with the PTC and and from the PTC to the motor?  Is that right?  If so are the fuses directional?  Never done this but it makes sense.  Is this particularly necessary for the Canon motor?  If so, why this motor?  Lots of questions but you are the man with all the answers!  Thanks@

Too bad the magazines don't look inside when they review new products!  

@T4TT posted:

@gunrunnerjohn
Hi John, sorry for the dumb questions, but here goes.  You mentioned installing a PTC in line with the motor.  So you that means interrupt the inbound power wire with the PTC and and from the PTC to the motor?  Is that right?  If so are the fuses directional?  Never done this but it makes sense.  Is this particularly necessary for the Canon motor?  If so, why this motor?  Lots of questions but you are the man with all the answers!  Thanks@

Correct, the PTC goes in series with one of the motor leads.  The PTC is not directional, it has no polarity.  The reason for protecting the board with the Canon motor is they have a propensity to short out and the RCMC doesn't react fast enough to the overload to protect itself.  I have two RCMC boards with the motor driver FET's burned up and the board under them destroyed.  The 3rd one I encountered I managed to save the board by replacing the FET's that were cooked.  Nowadays I figure I should have some protection from the crappy Canon motor.

@Professor Chaos posted:

Too bad the magazines don't look inside when they review new products!  

I think that is a used to be. I believe either back in the mid to late 90's they had popped open a few of the first TMCC engines to look at and explain a few things. One I believe was a steam engine, the other I think was a diesel, maybe a PA or F3. I think there were some others, maybe some other diesels, but hey, we're talking quite some time ago. I'd have to pop out some of the old magazines and pop a look.

Looks like a lot of small, careless,  mistakes in assembly. I open all the new stuff I've bought and check the wiring. Yeah I void the warranty but, if there are any problems, I fix them and eliminate the problem that would have required the warranty repair in the first place. Most of these boards are pretty robust as long as they aren't shorted to chassis ground...

@Lou1985 posted:

Looks like a lot of small, careless,  mistakes in assembly. I open all the new stuff I've bought and check the wiring. Yeah I void the warranty but, if there are any problems, I fix them and eliminate the problem that would have required the warranty repair in the first place. Most of these boards are pretty robust as long as they aren't shorted to chassis ground...

I agree, I have had very few issues with these LEGACY boards. Unless something touches chassis ground. It never ends well.

I'd estimate 99% of the problems with Legacy or PS3 boards failing can be traced to careless assembly causing wire shorts to ground. The other killer is people running the new stuff with postwar transformers with no added circuit protection. The boards rarely just fail on their own. It's usually assembly/ user error. Except in the case of PS2 5V stuff 😉.

Slapped together by angry elves.

- Crank

Ok, what’s PTC, it must be a protection piece of some kind, but what? Also, why the Canon motor when there are better ones available? This is great information, thsnk you very much all for chiming in, and Bruk for beginning the thread. Happy Railroading Everyone

@leapinlarry posted:

Ok, what’s PTC, it must be a protection piece of some kind, but what? Also, why the Canon motor when there are better ones available? This is great information, thsnk you very much all for chiming in, and Bruk for beginning the thread. Happy Railroading Everyone

I’ll answer the Cannon motor question Larry, ....Pittmans are no longer viable for use in our hobby. Ametek, the parent company of Pittman has priced themselves right out of our hobby. This isn’t Lionel’s fault. I’m sure they’ve done the best they could do in choosing a vendor for motors. I’m also sure cost, availability, and the vendor’s willingness to work with Lionel .....hope that makes sense,...

Pat

Larry, searching “PTC circuit protector”, I found this:

PTC Definition

– Polymer PTC (PPTC) Resistors are overcurrent protection devices. Like a fuse, they have two terminals and are placed in line with the circuit being protected.

– Under normal conditions, they act as a low value resistor – dissipating little power and barely warm.

– Under fault conditions, they heat up due to I2R (Ohmic heating; >100oC) and their resistance increases 1000X or more, limiting the current to a small value.

– When the current is removed, the PPTC will return to normal temperature and resistance, restoring the circuit.

PTC is an acronym For Positive Temperature Coefficient. Its a thermistor which as explained above changes its resistance with temperature. In a PTC the resistance increases as the temperature increases. In a negative temperature coefficient thermistor the resistance decreases as the the temperature increases.
How fast the they change determines how they are used.
The PTCs used in circuit protection change resistance rapidly in response to small increases in temperature. Its the current they pass that changes their characteristic.

Pete

And so why are these not installed by the manufacture???

@DaveGG posted:

And so why are these not installed by the manufacture???

You’d have to ask them that question,....

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

I’ll answer the Cannon motor question Larry, ....Pittmans are no longer viable for use in our hobby. Ametek, the parent company of Pittman has priced themselves right out of our hobby. This isn’t Lionel’s fault. I’m sure they’ve done the best they could do in choosing a vendor for motors. I’m also sure cost, availability, and the vendor’s willingness to work with Lionel .....hope that makes sense,...

Pat

Any idea how much Pittman motors sell for these days if a hobbyist wanted to purchase one? Does Ametek still make motors in the proper voltage, speed, size, and torque range that is suitable for O scale trains?
I can totally understand Lionel migrating to a different brand with costs going up. I’m just wondering what options are available to us hobbyists who would like to put better motors in these and other models.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

Any idea how much Pittman motors sell for these days if a hobbyist wanted to purchase one? Does Ametek still make motors in the proper voltage, speed, size, and torque range that is suitable for O scale trains?
I can totally understand Lionel migrating to a different brand with costs going up. I’m just wondering what options are available to us hobbyists who would like to put better motors in these and other models.

Sure, a single motor from Ametek will set you back a cool 150-200 dollars now,....they’re really not interested in playing with us anymore,.....aerospace, and medical is their main focus now......some Pittmans still available from Lionel, you’ll have check availability for a particular locomotive. We find motors on the secondary market, but you have to know what motors work with a given application, and even as important, what will fit!..

Pat

Wow, that’s a pretty serious jump in price. No wonder Lionel had to change suppiers. I was wondering about where you source your motors since you seem to do a lot of high end re-builds. Sounds like its a matter of knowing the Pittman product line and knowing where to look.

Thanks for the info

Sounds like ill have a VL GS-4, coming by my desk in a few days for a testing pre-inspection before delivery to the customer.

Ill take pictures of the inside and post if I find anything as well. More to come.....

@Bruk posted:

Sounds like ill have a VL GS-4, coming by my desk in a few days for a testing pre-inspection before delivery to the customer.

Ill take pictures of the inside and post if I find anything as well. More to come.....

I can hardly wait . . . 😁 Mind you,  a pre-delivery inspection sounds like a very good idea to me. Is this something that your store will do on request? I don't imagine it's free but certainly seems worthwhile to me.

@Hancock52 posted:

I can hardly wait . . . 😁 Mind you,  a pre-delivery inspection sounds like a very good idea to me. Is this something that your store will do on request? I don't imagine it's free but certainly seems worthwhile to me.

Yeah really!!....I’m sure many folks would gladly pay a professional like Bruk to open their stuff up and verify fit, finish, & operation!!.....Lionel should recognize this kind of customer care, not void any warranties, and not only compensate Bruk in some kind of way, but also give him the support needed to ensure product reaches the consumer in perfect working order,.......in the long run, they’d be saving ALOT of money, time & customer frustration on RA’s that Bruk could nip in the bud before the customer even sees it,....if the QC can’t be handled at the factory, then let highly competent techs like Bruk do a pre-delivery inspection,.......that sounds like a viable and realistic plan,..no??.....of course I hope I’m not putting words in Bruk’s mouth, .....that’s not my intention!!....

Pat

@Hancock52 posted:

I can hardly wait . . . 😁 Mind you,  a pre-delivery inspection sounds like a very good idea to me. Is this something that your store will do on request? I don't imagine it's free but certainly seems worthwhile to me.

Upon request,

Eastside Trains will do this for anything the customer purchases.

First, and interesting discussion.  Secondly, I can say with certainty that I'm not opening up mine both because mine is perfect and because I would not attempt want to void the warranty if it was broken.

I happen to think it is a superb loco in every way - just very impressed with how smoothly it runs and how great the sound is.  I don't have much use for the cylinder steam effect, but then I suspected that would be the case when I ordered it.  But I love the Force Coupler.  What a great idea!. 

I have a seven other Vision locos and I think this is the best one yet.

@Lee Willis posted:

First, and interesting discussion.  Secondly, I can say with certainty that I'm not opening up mine both because mine is perfect and because I would not attempt want to void the warranty if it was broken.

I think Bruks was perfect too.....until he opened it...

Yikes, my GS-1 is sitting on my shelf since I picked it up. I might have to break out a temporary loop to make sure it is functioning after seeing this thread. Great work Bruk on the in-depth review on the GS.

I do continue to pre-order from Lionel, but my concerns are growing(cough cough..milk cars, cough cough...paint colors). My new EM-1 has been at Lionel for about a month now and my H10 was also sent in about the same time(this one was more my fault, but gosh that boiler interior was a tangled mess to work with). If it wasn't for the features and innovation from Lionel, I don't think the hobby would have interested me much when I got into it back in 2015. Since then, my collection has grown to include a few Visionline Locos(4), only one of which had issues(Big Boy). Lionel does seem to do a decent job of getting their VL customers taken care of really well even after warranty term. I would never expect perfection(you'll only just get let down again and again), but I do expect service for these prices and I think they do fairly well.

@RickO posted:

I think Bruks was perfect too.....until he opened it...

You are correct Rick,

Everything was working just fine out of the box @Lee Willis it would have been a matter of time before that pinched and exposed blue motor wire rubbed through the paint then grounding out and taking the entire board out with it.

Sometime patience and 4 screws would save you a huge headache.

@Professor Chaos posted:

Too bad the magazines don't look inside when they review new products!  

The magazines don't own the testing units and are most likely on loan. No longer a simple disassembly. The hardest part is reassembly.

@romiller49 posted:

The magazines don't own the testing units and are most likely on loan. No longer a simple disassembly. The hardest part is reassembly.

These days the units are organized like this. Not like the TMCC days.....

@romiller49 posted:

The magazines don't own the testing units and are most likely on loan. No longer a simple disassembly. The hardest part is reassembly.

One of the places that MTH excelled at is ease of service. Usually 3-4 screws and a single connector will have the shell off. A single screw holding a diesel truck to its motor. No ME degree needed to work on their engines.

Pete

@Norton posted:

One of the places that MTH excelled at is ease of service. Usually 3-4 screws and a single connector will have the shell off. A single screw holding a diesel truck to its motor. No ME degree needed to work on their engines.

Pete

That is one best qualities with MTH: consistency in their designs. Their trains usually come apart in a very presictable way. Lionel on the other hand redesigns how there product fits together every 5 years. The scale diesels are the biggest offender. This was probably the worst part about doing repair at a Lionel service station. Every engine I worked on, it was an adventure in how to take it apart/put tit back together.

The small amount of MTH we did work on was always easy to take apart. The reliability of their electronics was a different matter.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

That is one best qualities with MTH: consistency in their designs. Their trains usually come apart in a very presictable way. Lionel on the other hand redesigns how there product fits together every 5 years. The scale diesels are the biggest offender. This was probably the worst part about doing repair at a Lionel service station. Every engine I worked on, it was an adventure in how to take it apart/put tit back together.

The small amount of MTH we did work on was always easy to take apart. The reliability of their electronics was a different matter.

I agree the diesels are annoying, But I NEVER had issues finding steam loco shell screws, the steam is consistent to 3-4 screws as the MTH.

….the JLC Allegheny....not simple.

I agree, the Lionel steam for the most part is great. A few locomotives can be troublesome. I remember the N&W Class A being particularly irritating. It seems like the earlier articulated engines were more difficult; Lionel was probably figuring out the finer points of mechanical design at the time. Non-articulated steam has been very consistent in regards to design and assembly.

Bruk,

Thanks for the education. Very informative. Not sure I have the stones to pull one apart yet. Great work.

Thank you for the photos, as a new person it was quite informative!

too many possible assembly issues to be unique to this one engine. I suspect ALL of the engines have one or more of these defects that has yet to surface.

PERFECTION IS AN ILLUSION.

I see the problems in this whole thread. I have stated many times to stop buying in this BTO era. What Bruk has exposed is the total lack of Lionels attitude in getting the products they have had built. 

It comes down to that Lionel is either incompetent in holding their builder accountable or they just don't care.

If they don't care then the game is over! Its well past the time they need to get quality control under control!!

They should've ashamed of the build quality that has their  name on it.

Dave

Wow, great post Bruk; I got 2 new engines this Christmas season - Legacy EM-1 and a Legacy Big Boy.

Took a cursory look at the innards of the Big Boy by removing the boiler (sacrilege) and didn't notice any issues - was impressed by the build quality and routing of the wires - maybe I'll take another look anyway.  Will also have a look at the EM-1 - couldn't hurt.  Would rather do that then get on that track of shipping a broke engine in for repair.

Some questions though Bruk: how did you fix the bare spot on the blue wire and how did you get the contact out of the plug to re-crimp the wire?

I think we should see what @Bruk finds out when/if he opens up another one of these GS series models. After all, there’s a really large number of versions, several with different features, and in what I’d guess was a large production run involving LOTS of hand assembly, there are going to be variations in how well it is done.

I agree that Lionel’s factory/factories assembly quality has been hit and miss over recent years and that must have an impact on customers’ willingness to take the plunge and pre-order. It certainly has with me.

P.S. I'd just add that scoring a success in sales volume terms, as Lionel appears to have done with this VL issue, pretty inevitably means that somewhere in the manufacturing process there will be glitches. They really could not have measured the demand for these locos, and individual versions of them, before pre-orders were in, and although we'll never know, I'd imagine it exceeded expectations. My concern is how this plays out in manufacturing terms given the significant volume of other products Lionel produces, but you can only judge that by results and what's posted here is probably a tiny sample of the full picture.

Just opened my VisionLine GS-2 #4414 (Lark)
Cat #2031470.

Couple of things.

• The engine tested and ran fine.
• The back apron was not attached.  I found it under the engine, laying on top of the rear trucks.
• The right rear blowdown hose/piping was bent.  I was able to mostly straighten this with a little finger pressure.

Back Apron -
I removed the two rear hinges still attached to the back of the engine.  Each are held on with a small screw with two mating pins to ensure proper alignment.  The hinges were "sprung" open a little.  The hinge pins on the apron, made of brass, were bent just a little with one sheared off.  Strange thing is when I placed the hinge back on the pins on the apron, the hinge did not have full travel.  The apron would only rise about half way and would not go to level.  There is a small brass "dog" stop that binds the hinge preventing its travel.  So now I have to ask myself if I should file this down and re-install the hinges.  I will call Lionel tomorrow and ask if this piece is available.  I hope I do not have to send this back.  Purchased from Legacy Station.

Would you mind posting a few more pictures of the Lark model? I really wanted to see what the production unit looked like. I’m having overwhelming temptation to get one at a later date once I’ve paid my preorders off.
The Lark version might be the neatest fantasy paint scheme Lionel has ever done IMHO. My only gripe was that they chose the GS-2 as the locomotive. As a fantasy model what if, the GS-4 would have been more plausible for SP.

you would think  based on the advertising propaganda that BUILT TO ORDER means that as fewer are made they would be made with more CARE.

it seems BTO means  BULLCRAPPED TOGETHER,

The GS-4:

Probably the nicest tooled GS-4 model Lionel has made. But once again, some build issues.

• Cosmetic issues with clear coat
• Runs in the clear coat.
• Wheel chipped, and axle bent.
• Excessive flux

Out of the box, dynamo didn’t work. The fan pulsed with every command from the LEGACY remote. I tried to reset it but nothing. I took the shell off and re-seated the plugs going to the SFC4. That seemed to fix the issue.

@Bruk Probably the least of the problems but what can be done about the clear coat? It looks a little like a sticker was applied there or it was wiped when wet.

I assume that the flux will clean up - assuming it might turn into a problem otherwise.

@Hancock52 posted:

@Bruk Probably the least of the problems but what can be done about the clear coat? It looks a little like a sticker was applied there or it was wiped when wet.

I assume that the flux will clean up - assuming it might turn into a problem otherwise.

The mark was from the box packaging, like the paint was not completely cured.

If I were to fix it, I would wet sand the problem area with 1000 grit. Mask off the oil bunker then respray entire top with Tamyia semi-gloss.

Not good. ☹️

@Bruk posted:

The GS-4:

Probably the nicest GS-4 model Lionel has made. But once again, some build issues.

I don't know. With all of these many issues, I'm not sure that would be my conclusion.  I would be hesitant to spend $1,800.00 on a project engine.   But there's no way I'd try to undertake the corrections. With all these issues shown, I'd definitely return the engine, but I'd be afraid the replacement would have issues, too.

For now, I think I'll be staying with my no. 11127. Cosmetically and operationally, it's flawless. Build quality seemed far better then. All those steam effects on the new ones look pretty cool, though. It would seem that the more do-dahs they put into these engines, the more chances there are for things to go wrong. The tradeoff.

Soldering job on that photo with the five switches looks to have been performed by a 5 year old,.     If not shiny and smooth there will be cold joint failure in your future.     I've been on/off/on again about my preorder from Lionel,.   perhaps I should be satisfied with what I have and skip any new stuff.

@breezinup posted:

I don't know. With all of these many issues, I'm not sure that would be my conclusion.  I would be hesitant to spend $1,800.00 on a project engine.   But there's no way I'd try to undertake the corrections. With all these issues shown, I'd definitely return the engine, but I'd be afraid the replacement would have issues, too.

For now, I think I'll be staying with my no. 11127. Cosmetically and operationally, it's flawless. Build quality seemed far better then. All those steam effects on the new ones look pretty cool, though. It would seem that the more do-dahs they put into these engines, the more chances there are for things to go wrong. The tradeoff.

I guess the mechanical and minor electrical issues don’t bug me too much since I’m not shy about fixing them. I have a lot of experience fixing far worse issues so most of these are really nuissances.
I have a personal story with the 11127 that made me gun shy about ever buying one. This is one of the early legacy models and the boards are the old TMCC style. The first legacy warranty repair job that came into the shop I worked at was one of these. After diagnosing, I determined the motor control board was bad. Called up Lionel and they sent a replacement. I installed it and the same problem remained. After calling them back, they asked if I was using a ground strap and working on a non-carpeted floor. I said no and I never had any issues replacing TMCC motor control boards (including Odyssy boards). That was when the technician told me the legacy boards were very sensitive to static electricity. After they sent a second board, I used a ground strap and went to the only room in the shop that didn’t have carpet: the restroom and did the board swap in there. The engine ran fine after that.

Because of that, I have stayed away from the early production legacy models. The redesigned boards are much better and more robust.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

That was when the technician told me the legacy boards were very sensitive to static electricity. After they sent a second board, I used a ground strap and went to the only room in the shop that didn’t have carpet: the restroom and did the board swap in there. The engine ran fine after that.

Because of that, I have stayed away from the early production legacy models. The redesigned boards are much better and more robust.

Boy that is a very handy piece of knowledge to have.

I also appreciate that you did it in the restroom haha that's amusing.

Just keeps getting better and better from the Big L. Flux on the boards will cause corrosion in time.  Messing with any electronics should be done at the least on a grounded anti static mat and the most have the mat and a grounded wrist strap.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

Because of that, I have stayed away from the early production legacy models. The redesigned boards are much better and more robust.

Hopefully the "much better and more robust boards" can withstand the direct short of the less than robust Canon motor Lionel has been using should it occur.

I believe gunrunnerjohn has seen a few.

I believe they’re more robust than the previous ones. The tiniest bit of static electricity seemed to wipe them out. John had a great suggestion for cheap insurance: put a PTC in series between a motor lead and the board. Should save the board if the motor dies.

The TMCC boards from 1999 through 2006 were the best though. I have rewired several engines that had their pickup wiring get burned up because people used transformers with poor circuit breakers. After replacing all the melted wire in the engine and tender, the boards always seemed to come back to life. Only real problem I consistently saw was the smoke triac’s on the R2LC weren’t very robust.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

Because of that, I have stayed away from the early production legacy models. The redesigned boards are much better and more robust.

Just the opposite of my experience. 1st generation Legacy is essentially TMCC Odyssey programmed with 9 bit vs 8 bit code. Never seen a failure with them. Have seen many RCMCs fail for no apparent reason. For that reason I have little interest in modern Legacy engines.

Pete

I've had a couple of similar stories. I had a 4436 GS4 that decided to act funky after a derailment on my club's layout and suddenly start speeding up over speed step 20 and jump to chuffs per wheel revolution, an NS SD40-2 that had its smoke unit board quit after a brief short on the layout one day, and a Southern Crescent I bought from a forum member years ago that blew its board on my home carpet layout right when I got it in the mail. All got fixed rather quickly, fortunately.

So far, all my post 2014 Lionel locomotives have had all their electronics still functioning fine. Of course this is just my case and the locomotives I had. I have a few other LEGACY locomotives prior to 2014 and anything that went wrong with them was seriously minor like a fan motor not working.

@Ryan Selvius posted:

Would you mind posting a few more pictures of the Lark model? I really wanted to see what the production unit looked like. I’m having overwhelming temptation to get one at a later date once I’ve paid my preorders off.
The Lark version might be the neatest fantasy paint scheme Lionel has ever done IMHO. My only gripe was that they chose the GS-2 as the locomotive. As a fantasy model what if, the GS-4 would have been more plausible for SP.

I'll go ahead and post another thread just on the GS-2 Lark.  Not sure if fits under this one.

I am thinking of getting a gs2 one of these. My question for bruk or anyone here. Is the issues that bruk found only one certain legacy gs models or is it all the gs models? Should I get it looked at after getting it? Just asking

@Lionelzwl2012 posted:

I am thinking of getting a gs2 one of these. My question for bruk or anyone here. Is the issues that bruk found only one certain legacy gs models or is it all the gs models? Should I get it looked at after getting it? Just asking

I have the “Southern Pacific Lines” GS-2.  Perfect out of the box.  Sweet locomotive.

Thanks bryant thats good to know. These models were made on different day and on different factory lines when assembled. Lets hope all the gs visionline models weren't rush out the door.

@Norton posted:

Just the opposite of my experience. 1st generation Legacy is essentially TMCC Odyssey programmed with 9 bit vs 8 bit code. Never seen a failure with them. Have seen many RCMCs fail for no apparent reason. For that reason I have little interest in modern Legacy engines.

Pete

How many Pete?  I've never have had a failure and the new engines are now coming with 3rd generation Legacy.  So you would think there's improvement over the 2nd gen.

@superwarp1 posted:

How many Pete?  I've never have had a failure and the new engines are now coming with 3rd generation Legacy.  So you would think there's improvement over the 2nd gen.

I have five engines with RCMCs, Vision 700E, Mikado, RS11, Niagara, and an Alco S1. My Hudson failed twice and the RS11 had to go back because it couldn't remember its ID. two club members had to send their Niagaras back to Lionel and another had issues with their F7s and still another had to send his Legacy J3 ESE Hudson back. Pretty sure there were more.

Some failures were just smoke issues other it just wouldn't run but most can't these themselves so back they go.

Pete

@Norton posted:

I have five engines with RCMCs, Vision 700E, Mikado, RS11, Niagara, and an Alco S1. My Hudson failed twice and the RS11 had to go back because it couldn't remember its ID. two club members had to send their Niagaras back to Lionel and another had issues with their F7s and still another had to send his Legacy J3 ESE Hudson back. Pretty sure there were more.

Some failures were just smoke issues other it just wouldn't run but most can't these themselves so back they go.

Pete

Well that sucks.  Five hear with no issues.

@Norton posted:

I have five engines with RCMCs, Vision 700E, Mikado, RS11, Niagara, and an Alco S1. My Hudson failed twice and the RS11 had to go back because it couldn't remember its ID. two club members had to send their Niagaras back to Lionel and another had issues with their F7s and still another had to send his Legacy J3 ESE Hudson back. Pretty sure there were more.

Some failures were just smoke issues other it just wouldn't run but most can't these themselves so back they go.

Pete

This sounds familar as a different topic regarding quality issues. 

We have obviously reached a point where we are the final inspection.  If it does not pass, we send it back.  I for one have a return rate of about 20-30%.  MTH, not much better.  For what it's worth, my T1 from Mr. Muffin is at Lionel with a noisy buzz issue.  Aaron witrh Lionel confirmed it was a problem, not a normal sound.  My new MTH J Class is at MM gettin a board fixwd with GGG.  No mfr. is immune apparantly.

Is this acceptable?  Not in the past, but with a mature product in a market with margins under heavy pressure, something has to give.  Less QC from the mfr.  Acceptable now, not really, but that is the choice.  To purchase, or not to purchase.  At this point for me, the enjoyment outweighs the hassle. 

On the bright side, with the long turn around time, its like getting the locomotive or engine for the fisrst time when it gets back.

The most I've seen from the RCMC & RS-lite boards are:

• Melted smoke units.
• Blown bridge rectifiers on input power on RS-lite.
• 1 board from a U30 with failed motor control regulators

Other than that, everything else I've seen was "self" inflicted damage from the person (ME) installing them or a corrupted flash of the board from Lionel.

The RCMC & RS-Lite boards were the best generation of LEGACY electronics to date. We will have to wait and see how these new LCP2/RS4L boards hold up. So far the only thing I'm seeing that the software is kinda "glitch-ee" and lags between commands. For example, If I change the volume on the GS-1 sometimes the tender doesn't see the command and they become out of volume sync . I have to turn the volume all the way up or down then re-adjust it to my preferred setting. Sometimes it does this on initial power start up as well where the engine or tender is louder than the other which messes with the "surround sound" effect. Its really Just annoying. Also a few times the Chuff will take off after (0 to speed step 1)  Sounding like a wheels slip feature. Which I thought was not offered with this model, it wont stop till I stop the engine.

Things I noticed so far:

• When the engine is running you can't over-ride the cab light to turn it on. (the option is nice)
• software is glitchy and laggy at times compared to the RCMC system. I understand there is a lot more going on in the board.
• The LCP2 is all in motor/light/smoke & sound that's a big step for them.
• I wish they kept the Bluetooth Receiver separate from the LCP2 board. They could have made the main board more compact than it is now. Dave mentioned issues they had in a video about the recent Genset, they couldn't get a good reception. They could have mounted the Bluetooth separately in an exposed location of the shell for better reception.
• With the death of the trim pot they need to add more range of master volume steps.

The one other thing I wish the guys at engineering would do is fix the low volume static on the boards. It was there on the RS-lite but more noticeable on this next gen. You never would hear it when you used a trim pot. It can only be heard when you turn it down digitally using the remote to turn the volume down. When you are doing this with DCC decoders and even in DCS with MTH ProtoSounds 2/3 you don't get this static. I know there are "concerns" mentioned on another thread where @Dave Olson explained more about it.