You getting it? How much will it be?
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@SeptaTony
"You getting it?" Uh, that would be no.
"How much will it be?" $3,499.00 
Feels like déjà vu !
Lionel has ruined what the Vision Line was supposed to be...
What a disappointment. No, I will wait for something different.
Another Big Boy, whoa, what a surprise. I'm surprised they went back to the depleting coal load with all the mechanical issues it had.
Lots of anticipation but no catsup
(for those who remember that commercial). I have one of the first generation BigBoys and I love it but I wouldn't buy more of the same thing. Vern asked "how much will it be?". You have to assume that in today's economy the MSRP will be way north of the original and the second releases. May be it will be released in the Santa Fe war bonnet or NYC Lightning stripe colors.
@superwarp1 posted:Another Big Boy, whoa, what a surprise. I'm surprised they went back to the depleting coal load with all the mechanical issues it had.
Seems that after over 100 years, Lionel still never learns. 
If this was April, I'd be wondering if this was an April fools joke!
Really?!
@Yellowstone Special posted:Seems that after over 100 years, Lionel still never learns.
If I had come to that same conclusion I would not now be part of this forum.
There' is no way that Lionel would have made it through these 122 years if it had never learned anything. Repeating mistakes will kill a business very quickly, whether in the 1920's or the 2020's.
Since it hasn't yet died in all these years my interpretation is that there are only occasional mistakes. Having said that, this Big Boy may indeed be one of them.
Mike
Always with the negative waves......Just for the record, I never figured every single release is about what I'd like/buy 
.
Kinda disappointing it's a re-run. However it'll probably sell well, considering the high secondary market prices of the previous Vison Line and Legacy runs.
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:If I had come to that same conclusion I would not now be part of this forum.
There' is no way that Lionel would have made it through these 122 years if it had never learned anything. Repeating mistakes will kill a business very quickly, whether in the 1920's or the 2020's.
Since it hasn't yet died in all these years my interpretation is that there are only occasional mistakes. Having said that, this Big Boy may indeed be one of them.
Mike
Well, then I'll rephrase that. After over 100 years in the business, Lionel has had some hits and misses.
I'm going to step out and say.... I'm thinking this is fake news.
When stuff like this happens, some observers may think it makes no sense. However, Lionel knows the marketplace better than any individual does, and if they chose to rerun and engine, it would only be because they have information that there's a demand for it. Obviously not from folks who already have it. But Lionel is not out to intentionally lose money. I'm sure they recognize that there will be some knashing of teeth by some when a re-run is done. But they've done it before. One example is the Legacy Southern Pacific Daylight. Another example was the Legacy Milwaukee Road S-3 steamers. Like the Daylights, Lionel ran that a second time several years after the first run. And the second run sold out, just like the first run.
Looks to me like Lionel should consider a new promo name for VisionLine. I say give "Tunnel VisionLine" a try.
"Tunnel VisionLine" I like that!
What run of the Big Boy will this be? 3rd? or perhaps 4th? Didn't MTH release one recently as well?
Makes little sense with so many options for them...
I think Lionel is producing the same engine over & over again simply because ppl buy them! Every big boy run has sold out and........... there are many of us that refuse to pay between $3,500.00 - $5,000.00 for the 1st vision line run. Although this run won’t be cheap, it won’t be$3,500.00, and there will be several different detail variations and time periods covered in this run. I also like the new features. Since I don’t have a single big boy. I’m in and I’ll enjoy it. Lionel gave us two newly tooled steamers last year. And a new brass hybrid in the last catalog. I think they are doing great.
The big boy is way to big for my layout and this new vision line big boy will be way to much money for me. I am not a fan of all the overhang. Even with 072 curves it still looks weird. How about Lionel doing a smaller vision line locomotive everything is huge and articulated.
My money is safe for now.
@MichRR714@MichRR714 posted:Lionel has ruined what the Vision Line was supposed to be...
It does not bother me when a company reruns something because, like Breezinup said, Lionel knows its market and these will probably sell well. What disappoints me is calling these reruns Vision Line. To me it is just a way of increasing the price for a Legacy rerun. Either retire the name or wait until a true Vision Line new design is produced to use the name again.
You would have thought Lionel would have at least done a second run of the CC2 or maybe do a Pennsy T1. They haven't been done way longer than the big boys. My son has the first run of the Visionline Big boy. Its a great engine but don't need another. I would have hoped for something new.
I am sure it will sell out, especially since it will be built to order, I just wont be adding it to my roster. Oh well, next time
That is great news for new people that doesn't have a Big Boy, but 1 Gen VL Big boy is a great machine. Personally, I'm not going to buy new Gen VL Big Boy just for 2 or 3 new features. Thanks to god, I found a brand new 4014 from a collector at MSRP $2699 two years ago, and until today I didn't have time to run it and add smoke oil, yet.
Talking about price, if new Legacy Challenger is $2,499 (almost same price from 1 Gen VL Big Boy and $600 more than VL Challenger), I think price for this new generation Big Boy will be around $3,499 - $3,699 because it will have more smoke/steam/lights features than previous generation, so with shipping and taxes we are talking about around $4,000.00 maybe. To much for me only for one loco.
I recommend you if you doesn't have one and want pay less, wait until August-October 2025 to buy a Lionel refurbished VL Big Boy for about $2,899. Just few weeks ago I purchased almost a brand new Clinchfield Challenger VL from them, almost a half price.
But anything product with good quality and design is welcome.
While I'm sure another Big Boy will be wonderful, not a chance at that price point. Not that I couldn't, but there are just so many other things that call my name.
I am surprised the Visionline line still exists at this point.
With the price of Legacy models now I cant believe there is a market for Visionline models at this point in the game.
Not trying to get into a price war. Just saying that I am surprised Lionel would concentrate on the Visionline market at this point with the economy situation and the fact that they can't even get their quality control and paint issues corrected on models more people purchase at a high price and are disappointed with.
Brad
@breezinup posted:When stuff like this happens, some observers may think it makes no sense. However, Lionel knows the marketplace better than any individual does, and if they chose to rerun and engine, it would only be because they have information that there's a demand for it. Obviously not from folks who already have it. But Lionel is not out to intentionally lose money, and I'm sure they recognize that there will be some knashing of teeth by some when a re-run is done. But they've done it before. One example is the Legacy Southern Pacific Daylight. Another example was the Legacy Milwaukee Road S-3 steamers. Like the Daylights, Lionel ran that a second time several years after the first run. And the second run sold out, just like the first run.
I think breezinup hit the nail.
As others have said ... Lionel will build what their management team feels will sell.
This loc will sell.
@rthomps posted:I think breezinup hit the nail.
As others have said ... Lionel will build what their management team feels will sell.
This loc will sell.
They will build what the "investment" team thinks will yield a profit.
You'd have to sell twice as many $1500 hudsons vs $3000 bigboys. There's probably little difference in the Chinese build cost.
Having said that. They need to add the Ed Dickens foamer deterrent blow down? pipe that shoots steam from the engineers side of the loco.
Everyone is feeling the pinch right now from inflation, gas prices, etc. I think Lionel is making the smart business decision to sell an engine that will have the broadest appeal possible. This engine won't actually hit shelves until next late next year, who knows what the economic landscape will look like then? Let's not discount (no pun intended! ) other possibilities like nucelar escalation in Ukraine, Chinese invasion of Taiwan, international food shortages, or anything else that might put a damper on Vision Line orders. (In accordance with forum rules I make no political assertions about any of the above, I merely acknowledge them as a possibility!)
I am not business man but perhaps this is less of a "profit/sales maximizing" decision and more of a "loss-minimizing" decision.
It’s not my cup of tea, but I hope they sell bunches and bunches of them. That would be good for the company and, importantly, for the dealers and that’s good for the hobby.
@MichRR714 posted:Feels like déjà vu !
Lionel has ruined what the Vision Line was supposed to be...
Agreed!
I take it Lionel is making the Big Boy join the ranks of the NYC Hudson and the PRR K4.... make them over and over again!
I guess I'm gonna have to Hunt down a PRR CCII
@0-Gauge CJ posted:I think Lionel is making the smart business decision to sell an engine that will have the broadest appeal possible.
I'm sorry, but on what planet is a VisionLine Big Boy, 3 years after the most recent run, the broadest appeal possible? It can't run on many layouts, it's going to cost a pretty penny, and a lot of people just bought one (Lionel ran them in 2019 V2), especially because MTH did a run around the same time.
Let's take a hypothetical where Lionel a) uses existing tooling, that b) can fit a bunch of the recent upgrades, and c) lots people recognize. What if Lionel had done a run of Berkshires and Kannawahs? They have the tooling, everyone knows 765 and 1225, and C&O 2716 has been making news as well. They can run Nickle Plate, Pere Marquette, C&O + Virginia (with the alternate smoke box front, low headlight), Polar Express and they can do a wide variety of paint schemes in each (I'd love to see 2716 in the scheme used to transport it to KSH's new site, with the CSX tender logo). I can even think up some interesting fantasy schemes in each that match that road's passenger car schemes.
While a Berk is not at the top of my wish list, there are certainly configurations I would heavily consider ordering, and I'm sure that's true of a lot of people. The risk exposure to Lionel is similar, if not better, and it has been far longer since they've done a run of them. I'm not saying it had to be Berks, I'm just using this as an example of something that makes a lot more sense than another run of Big Boys.
I really try to cut Lionel a lot of slack, and I usually criticize comments like mine, but this seems like a real let down after the hype for a new Vision Line loco.
PSM, good point on the Berks. They seem overdue in all their flavors, particularly the scale PolEx - I could sell mine (original release) for nearly twice what I paid for it if online sales are to be believed. That seems to point to demand for a rerun. Maybe they’re coming in Legacy (non-Vision) soon. An appearance in the January catalog would give them a decent shot of running under Christmas trees in 2023.
I'm in depending on the price. I don't have a Big Boy and I dig Visionline features a lot. I do need oodles of track and wood though so it's all price dependent. If it arrives in a year and I can save money for it every month, it might happen.
I hope it's massively successful regardless of my purchase. A boost in cash for Lionel is a good thing.
I'm befuddled by the decision to re-release the Big Boy because I think a lot of us would love to see something new or something else entirely, but Lionel knows their business better than I do.
With that being said, that doesn't mean I won't consider buying it. To be honest, I'd really love to have one, and this may be my best chance to procure one, but I'm not committed yet. I'll be looking forward to seeing pre-order pricing when shops are ready to start taking orders.
OK, so what would you all prefer to have besides the Big Boy?
I'd love to see a new run of the 700E. I also covet a GG1.
@prrhorseshoecurve posted:Agreed!
I take it Lionel is making the Big Boy join the ranks of the NYC Hudson and the PRR K4.... make them over and over again!
I guess I'm gonna have to Hunt down a PRR CCII
Hudson's? K4's they did run a bunch, do you mean Hudson's from postwar days? They haven't done many Hudson's in Legacy. Had the VL in two coats of paint if I'm not mistaken, and did the recent J3a in a few road numbers. They have only done J1's in TMCC and not that many that I recall. Is there any that I'm missing?
TrainWorld will be having Lionel on TrainWorld TV at 5PM EDT tonight Friday 10-21- 2022 and they will have a sample on display
@KenJrTW posted:TrainWorld will be having Lionel on TrainWorld TV at 5PM EDT tonight Friday 10-21- 2022 and they will have a sample on display
Even though I'm not ordering one, I like to hear what they say. Thanks Ken Jr for posting that.
@B rad posted:I am surprised the Visionline line still exists at this point.
With the price of Legacy models now I cant believe there is a market for Visionline models at this point in the game.
Not trying to get into a price war. Just saying that I am surprised Lionel would concentrate on the Visionline market at this point with the economy situation and the fact that they can't even get their quality control and paint issues corrected on models more people purchase at a high price and are disappointed with.
Brad
I hear ya but ...
- Those of us fortunate enough to be able to purchase from the Vision Line do not worry much about about cost. This market is quite price-insensitive. If we were talking about the Traditional Line then I'd agree wholeheartedly with you.
- Yes you are getting into a price war.
- Getting QC and paint issues under control may be facts to you, but to many including perhaps Lionel, they're more like an opinion. These 'facts' haven't affected sales appreciably. That's because most people don't care about these as much as you do.
You're not wrong here, you just see these issues from a different point of view -- an understandable one at that.
Finally, remember one thing about Lionel. Its products have always been expensive, and intended to be so, from day one 122 years ago all the way through to today.
These new prices are not out of line with that observation.
Mike
Since I have the first run Vision Line BB,actually two different numbers, and the 2017 MTH oil burner Big Boy, I have close to zero interest in this one. I can wait for something like the PRR T1 Duplex or maybe the C&O Yellowbelly.
@PSM posted:I'm sorry, but on what planet is a VisionLine Big Boy, 3 years after the most recent run, the broadest appeal possible? It can't run on many layouts, it's going to cost a pretty penny, and a lot of people just bought one (Lionel ran them in 2019 V2), especially because MTH did a run around the same time.
Let's take a hypothetical where Lionel a) uses existing tooling, that b) can fit a bunch of the recent upgrades, and c) lots people recognize. What if Lionel had done a run of Berkshires and Kannawahs? They have the tooling, everyone knows 765 and 1225, and C&O 2716 has been making news as well. They can run Nickle Plate, Pere Marquette, C&O + Virginia (with the alternate smoke box front, low headlight), Polar Express and they can do a wide variety of paint schemes in each (I'd love to see 2716 in the scheme used to transport it to KSH's new site, with the CSX tender logo). I can even think up some interesting fantasy schemes in each that match that road's passenger car schemes.
While a Berk is not at the top of my wish list, there are certainly configurations I would heavily consider ordering, and I'm sure that's true of a lot of people. The risk exposure to Lionel is similar, if not better, and it has been far longer since they've done a run of them. I'm not saying it had to be Berks, I'm just using this as an example of something that makes a lot more sense than another run of Big Boys.
I really try to cut Lionel a lot of slack, and I usually criticize comments like mine, but this seems like a real let down after the hype for a new Vision Line loco.
Broadest appeal, market saturation notwithstanding. The Big Boy is a very popular excursion engine and modelers seem fond of it in general. I have personally been grateful for reruns since I'm quite new to the hobby and I get another chance at getting excellent models no longer (or very rarely on the secondary market) available. I'm sure there are a couple of pandemic hobbyists who wouldn't mind, and there are probably a few who would mind picking up a second in a different road number or configuration (eg, oil vs coal tender). I personally would like to see a VL Allegheny or Y6b.
The more I think about this though the more I'm not sure my argument makes sense from an economic standpoint. My first thought was choose the Big Boy, try and ride out the excursion hype a little longer, and take advantage of the engine's broad popularity to try and get as large a pool of buyers as possible in an economic landscape that is dictating a smaller consumer market due to inflation. But VL is always expensive, right? The pool of buyers will always be pretty small. So then exactly how much more is the VL buyer pool going to shrink due to inflation? I'll guess not a lot... but if the pool is not shrinking much then you wouldn't need the Big Boy for broad appeal, any model that would draw interest from the VL customer pool would work... so that brings us back to the original question, why the Big Boy?
Well, found out a little more info on these BB’s. The 4000 will be post-war with aftercoolers below the pilot deck. (I wanted pre-war so I could paint “big boy” on the smokebox door, just like the RR employee did all those years ago.) The 4019’s smoke deflectors will be magnetic so they can be removed. I will probably order a 4019.
So my two cents here are that you guys are complaining an awful lot for no reason other than the fact to complain. Those of us that didn't have a chance at the 2014 run now have a chance here. Just like the 2-10-10-2. When that engine came out I was 15, when the first vision big boy I was 19. I wouldn't have one if Lionel didn't do a rerun, and I'll order a big boy because now I can afford one just like the 2-10-10-2.
Not everyone can afford or have a chance at every engine in every catalog. Don't get all in a bunch over reruns. Some of us are happy for them
@SB30 posted:Some of us are happy for them
I'm happy for them. I was pumped to see this because I had no money for this on the last run. I also had no place for a layout etc etc etc. I'm glad it's being rerun so I can get a chance at it because the depleting coal load is so cool to me!
I also thought the Visionline was only new locos on even years. But either way, this is a good opportunity for a lot us.
Reruns make sense as time moves on. If nobody buys them, that’s a real problem. We need people coming along wanting them.
Scale Polar Express Berks are going for stupid money because they haven’t been done in awhile. A rerun would be good for everyone (except the guy asking four grand). The same thing is happening with the Big Boys. Not for me, but I’m glad “new guys” can get them.
After waiting hours for this experience last year, Lionel had me all in at the word Big…….
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I think people were frustrated because a Legacy Big Boy was done in 2019 (I was under the impression that it was a vision Big Boy but when I checked the 2019 catalogs they didn't say Vision).
I'm a fan of reruns too - I was not in the hobby when the first Legacy Mohawks came out, so I was very happy to see a rerun of the Legacy Mohawks in last year's catalog and pick one up. But, if I had purchased a Big Boy in 2019, I would probably be a bit peeved too. If I had known a vision version was coming out, I may have saved the money or purchased something else and waited. That being said, it sounds like these will have some different details than the last batch (maybe?), so if you have the 2019 Legacy version at least you can make an excuse to pick this one up
Well, we actually didn't know that reruns were a plan until this year on the Trainworld video were Ryan and Dave said it out loud. Here we had thought that the reruns were something that was just how things worked out. Granted there was no new features in most, just more offerings. We made a list of Vision Line engines on another post.
Thing is, yes it is good to get a second chance, I'm all for it. I love my Challenger, that big old beast. Like I said though, we really didn't find out until that video that they do reruns for odd numbered years. So expect that every odd numbered year. Me, I'm glad that this is a rerun in that I have no interest in it. This saves more money for me for the time being. I am hoping that the catalog for 2023 is light on my wallet as well. The last few I have spent a lot less for a good few reasons not related to what was being offered, just needed money elsewhere. So, we can look forward to this Big Boy, but I'm thinking what is 2024's VL?
@Rider Sandman posted:Scale Polar Express Berks are going for stupid money because they haven’t been done in awhile.
Sellers are asking stupid money hoping to find buyers that match.
Those 9k berks never sold.
Lionel doesn't make money off of the resale. They're concerned about a return on the initial sale.
The size, and bells and whistles of the bigboy mean more money. The factory in China probably doesn't charge much (if any) more to make a bigboy than a berkshire.
Therefore, big articulateds seem to be the ticket for Lionel as far as VL is concerned.
@RickO posted:Therefore, big articulateds seem to be the ticket for Lionel as far as VL is concerned.
So where's my Vision Line PRR T1 Duplex? 
@gunrunnerjohn posted:So where's my Vision Line PRR T1 Duplex?
I'm also all in with you on this one. That is the only VL engine left on my wish list.
@RickO posted:Sellers are asking stupid money hoping to find buyers that match.
Those 9k berks never sold.
Rick,
You're right. They didn't.
But you're implying that no Berks have sold because the handful offered on the big E at more than $4,000 haven't sold. Not true. Plenty have sold, not at ridiculous prices, but nearer to their original MSRP than you would expect.
They've gotten good money.
Mike
@gunrunnerjohn posted:So where's my Vision Line PRR T1 Duplex?
I'd buy that one too, as long as they didn't have those big wheels to derail. I'd have to get someone to cut them down.
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Rick,
You're right. They didn't.
But you're implying that no Berks have sold because the handful offered on the big E at more than $4,000 haven't sold. Not true. Plenty have sold, not at ridiculous prices, but nearer to their original MSRP than you would expect.
They've gotten good money.
Mike
Rick isn't saying none of them sold, just the ones that were incredibly outrageous. Having seen a bunch of stuff on eBay for quite some time, some have not sold, but some have. Granted, perhaps deals were made that we didn't see, but highly doubt that someone would go for the 9K prices. I do know that some of the items I have watched have sold for less than the initial five or six asking prices. One of the VL Niagara's had been priced over $5K. The seller had it there for some time before reducing it repeatedly. I believe it finally sold somewhere around $2.5k. no on bit at the $3k price they lowered it to. Big Boy pricing is usually around $3k to $4.5k, though some have gone higher and sold. I don't watch those as much as I am not interested in them, but I have seen them disappear from those high prices.
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:I'd buy that one too, as long as they didn't have those big wheels to derail. I'd have to get someone to cut them down.
Take your T1 Duplex and flop it in your foam cradle upside down. Connect power and get the wheels turning. Using a Dremel sanding drum with about a 120-150 grit, you can taper the wheels. I keep a vacuum hose right next to the grinding operation to suck up the debris. In about 15 minutes, it's ready to run.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Take your T1 Duplex and flop it in your foam cradle upside down. Connect power and get the wheels turning. Using a Dremel sanding drum with about a 120-150 grit, you can taper the wheels. I keep a vacuum hose right next to the grinding operation to suck up the debris. In about 15 minutes, it's ready to run.
If I had one, I would.
@RickO posted:Therefore, big articulateds seem to be the ticket for Lionel as far as VL is concerned.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:So where's my Vision Line PRR T1 Duplex?
Not to be pedantic, but the PRR T1 is rigid frame, not articulated.
@PSM posted:Not to be pedantic, but the PRR T1 is rigid frame, not articulated.
And yet, there you go.
@Yellowstone Special posted:"How much will it be?" $3,499.00
Yeeeeooooowwwwww!!!!! 
Good Lord, that's a lot of money!
George
@gunrunnerjohn posted:So where's my Vision Line PRR T1 Duplex?
I would be all in on one of these
@TheRambles posted:You getting it? How much will it be?
NO WAY, WE NEED TO SAY NO TO LIONEL'S REMAKE INSANITY.
They are going to keep remaking old engines with more smoke holes if people keep buying them. It is silly to me. I have owned the VISION line BOY BOY and the JLC BIG BOY and they are the same. (except for smoke holes and some sound improvement) At least make some more road names (even fantasy) How many UP Big Boys does ANY railroad need?!?!?!
I heard a price of right around $2800 for the new vision line big boy
When somebody is new to the hobby or just starting out, they might not be in the position to afford that first, second or third run Vision line “anything.” But when you can, that secondary market sure doesn’t help make it any easier with a $3000-4000 “New” or “Barely used” Big Boy. Not being critical of the secondary market because hey thats capitalism. They can charge what the market bares. And yeah, maybe Lionel is gonna exploit that and charge North of the prices of the last rendition that they sold. I wouldn’t expect any of you that jumped on the earlier versions and bought one or two or a third to resell to consider buying this newest version. You already have enough skin in the game and maybe your waiting to sell that extra NOS Big Boy sitting on that shelf to the right newbie with some bucks.
But you know who might buy one of these newest versions….ME so Hey Lionel, bring it on baby let’s stabilize the secondary market and give some of us the chance, now that we have some cash to buy the latest version with some extra goodies. Sure it’s gonna be expensive….it’s a Hobby and that’s what we do…spend money. I’ll tell you what I’ll do, I’ll try to post some pictures and maybe some videos when it gets delivered, it’s the least I can do. Take my money Lionel and bring me a BEAST to run next to my 2019 Greyhound 3977 Vision Line Challenger!
Captain Big Daddy out
Wow, Big Boys are becoming as ubiquitous as the Hudsons were.
@Fexturbjet posted:When somebody is new to the hobby or just starting out, they might not be in the position to afford that first, second or third run Vision line “anything.” But when you can, that secondary market sure doesn’t help make it any easier with a $3000-4000 “New” or “Barely used” Big Boy. Not being critical of the secondary market because hey thats capitalism. They can charge what the market bares. And yeah, maybe Lionel is gonna exploit that and charge North of the prices of the last rendition that they sold. I wouldn’t expect any of you that jumped on the earlier versions and bought one or two or a third to resell to consider buying this newest version. You already have enough skin in the game and maybe your waiting to sell that extra NOS Big Boy sitting on that shelf to the right newbie with some bucks.
But you know who might buy one of these newest versions….ME so Hey Lionel, bring it on baby let’s stabilize the secondary market and give some of us the chance, now that we have some cash to buy the latest version with some extra goodies. Sure it’s gonna be expensive….it’s a Hobby and that’s what we do…spend money. I’ll tell you what I’ll do, I’ll try to post some pictures and maybe some videos when it gets delivered, it’s the least I can do. Take my money Lionel and bring me a BEAST to run next to my 2019 Greyhound 3977 Vision Line Challenger!
Captain Big Daddy out
I think this is exactly correct. While some may not like rereleases, the fact is they are, at least in part, indicative of new blood into the hobby. I think it’s great. And, to your point, while not resenting the prices on the secondary market per se, I’d much rather see new folks get a new one (with all the new features!) at a much lower price than a six- or whatever-old used one and spend the difference on their layout or growing their fleet or any of the other things that eat money in this hobby.
@TheRambles posted:You getting it? How much will it be?
This is becoming the same as a “new and improved “ Hudson. Another way to reach into you pocket…..NOT
@gunrunnerjohn posted:And yet, there you go.
No steam, IRT subway cars……….I was putting a box away when the original receipt for my R-17’s fell out. 499.00 from Trainland. Almost 20 years ago……not only does time fly, but that set with Lionel prices would be over 2 grand with fixed doors……ouch
@Jim S posted:Wow, Big Boys are becoming as ubiquitous as the Hudsons were.
I think the fact that UP has an operating Big Boy has really raised the profile of the type. Now, everyone has to have at least one Big Boy.
first of all, I don't think 3000-4000 engines, " get more people in the hobby ". Most people start out with starter sets, diesels or Lion chief before they go full Legacy and 3000 big steam. These big engines are for people that are already "hooked".
And second... remaking the same engines does not lower the prices for the older versions, it actually makes them go up.
I know the 2nd statement is going to get people's blood pressure up so let me explain. I used to sell 1999 Big Boy models for 1250 new in the box and I was happy to get it. Now I see the same model selling for 1500-1600. part of that is inflation aka all things go up in price over time. But part of that is the "collector mindset" ...
Model railroading is really more about collecting that running trains. (the blood pressure just doubled again!! )
I have travelled the country looking and buying trains collections and I have found 10-15 trains collections for every actual running layout. So these Big Engine get bought mostly by people that already have big engines. I know of a collection that has the finest postwar collection I have ever seen. (stuff never cataloged or know) Some say there is only 1 complete father and son set, but I know for a fact there are at least 3. This collector is very private and a lot of them are, but my point is this...this collector has thousands of post war trains and NO layout, not even a loop of track.
my issue with Lionel remaking and remaking and remaking the same engine, is it is lazy. It is a simple way to lower costs and sell the "same" product o a captive audience. That will keep buying because they are collectors.
I really love Lionel Legacy control, but admire MTH because they constantly push the envelope. I can't see Lionel ever taking a chance and making European steamers like MTH did....they just won't risk it.
I feel that it is just a matter of time before Lionel and MTH combine either in a merger or takeover . I just hope they continue the innovation that still exist at both companies and not the remake everything in the basement .... Keep LionChief, Legacy and Fastrack and dump the remakes and protosound x.x . Move away from brass detail to 3d printed plastic parts and rethink using die-cast in general. instead of making another scale Big Boy that will have the same look as the JLC and VISION MODEL make a LionChief controlled Big Boy and Challenger in the LionMaster line that will run on smaller layouts and be put into starter sets.
Sadly, I can predict what Lionel will release based on what they already have just buy seeing what is selling on eBAY !!! .....for example also make a new 990 that will cost as much as the old ones are selling for on eBay ... look for a "NEW" 990 controller that will be around 1500....coming soon!
out.
@unixunix posted:I really love Lionel Legacy control, but admire MTH because they constantly push the envelope. I can't see Lionel ever taking a chance and making European steamers like MTH did....they just won't risk it.
Past tense for MTH, all they do now is remake existing products with a new paint job. There are no new designs coming out from MTH.
@unixunix posted:I feel that it is just a matter of time before Lionel and MTH combine either in a merger or takeover . I just hope they continue the innovation that still exist at both companies and not the remake everything in the basement ....
Actually, I don't ever see that happening. MTH is a shadow of it's former self, and Lionel picked over their tooling for stuff that they wanted already. There's no upside for Lionel to acquire MTH that I can see.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Past tense for MTH, all they do now is remake existing products with a new paint job. There are no new designs coming out from MTH.
Actually, I don't ever see that happening. MTH is a shadow of it's former self, and Lionel picked over their tooling for stuff that they wanted already. There's no upside for Lionel to acquire MTH that I can see.
Unfortunately Lionel is basically doing the same thing. 2020 Vision Line steam was the SP GS class, which except the GS1 has been done multiple times by MTH and Lionel. 2021 Vision Line steam was the N&W class A, which has been done multiple times over the years by MTH, and the Lionel model in the early 2000s. New electronics does not make something never done before, it just has new electronics. So if Lionel announced a Vision Line Triplex in 2024 based off MTH tooling it wouldn't be new at all, just a previous model with new paint and smoke coming out a couple new holes 
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Here's the kicker: steam tooling is way more expensive than a diesel. Both MTH and Lionel have pretty much made every well known steam locomotive in diecast that will turn a profit. Don't expect any new diecast tooling from Lionel either. Probably anything new will be brass hybrid. So, yes, while there are multiple steam locomotives that haven't been done I'm sure they haven't been done because they won't turn a profit. There hasn't been a WM 4-8-4 built because the market isn't there for it, but the market is there for multiple runs of SP 4-8-4s. But WM F7s are easy to make a profit on because they are just a paint variation on a model that will work for multiple roads, so you can still make money on it.
@Lou1985 posted:New electronics does not make something never done before, it just has new electronics. So if Lionel announced a Vision Line Triplex in 2024 based off MTH tooling it wouldn't be new at all, just a previous model with new paint and smoke coming out a couple new holes
And I could only imagine what that Russian iron blue color would look like from Lionel.
Brad
I am really excited to see the Big Boy. Living on the west coast, I favor lines that operate out here. It's hard to think of many iconic steamers that were in actual, regular operation other than the SP Daylight, SP cab forward and UP Big Boy. I held back in 2019 waiting for another Vision Line Big Boy. I am thrilled to have the chance now.
If Lionel can duplicate the effort they put into the original VL Big Boy and the VL Class As then this should be a home run. Pricing maybe a hard pill to swallow as a lot has changed since the previous models came out but they should do well. I have the original VL Big Boy so I am good.
Will we see a new vision line announcement from Lionel during york week?
Do you guys buy all these remakes? I don't get the attraction of Bluetooth and more smoke holes. The JLC Big Boy was so amazing, it was all I ever wanted to own.... Lionel will end up remaking father son set if they can make a buck off it.
@unixunix posted:Do you guys buy all these remakes? I don't get the attraction of Bluetooth and more smoke holes. The JLC Big Boy was so amazing, it was all I ever wanted to own.... Lionel will end up remaking father son set if they can make a buck off it.
Not everyone has a Big Boy. If I didn't I probably would have bought one.
@MartyE posted:Not everyone has a Big Boy. If I didn't I probably would have bought one.
I don't and I won't.
@unixunix posted:NO WAY, WE NEED TO SAY NO TO LIONEL'S REMAKE INSANITY.
They are going to keep remaking old engines with more smoke holes if people keep buying them. It is silly to me. I have owned the VISION line BOY BOY and the JLC BIG BOY and they are the same. (except for smoke holes and some sound improvement) At least make some more road names (even fantasy) How many UP Big Boys does ANY railroad need?!?!?!
(My friends always joke that up until recently it seemed EVERY new MTH catalog had an SP Daylight GS-4 passenger set. And now another with their new announcement :-)
Back to the thread, how many times has Lionel run the Big Boy?
Maybe the movie Ground Hog Day had a significant subliminal impact on the respective marketing and R&D departments. It seems that all it does is cripple the resale value of prior versions.
Maybe the next Visionline engine will be the Strasburg #90 everyone has been waiting on. 😂
@Former Member posted:Maybe the movie Ground Hog Day had a significant subliminal impact on the respective marketing and R&D departments. It seems that all it does is cripple the resale value of prior versions.
Resale value? Who buys trains for resale value? I'll be honest I was one of those guys when first announced that said "another Big Boy already?". The market proved me wrong. You produce what will sell. I also realized that as new folks enter the hobby there has to be reissues. Look at the Scale Polar Express Berk. IMO Lionel could produce these very 2 years and still sell out every year.
