Kris Model Trains

Just a shot in the dark. If the car was a Marine Midland it may have been made for Marine Midland Banking in New York before it changed to HSBC. Possibly a very small run of them were made for them............Paul

Kris Model Trains? I am unfamiliar with the name...

Kris Model trains was out of Endicott New York The owner was Andy Kriswallus. I believe the molds were from the old AMT Kusan molds from the fifties. There was also a reefer car too.....................Paul

Wow, that does seem high. It might have been a Frank's Roundhouse paint job on a Kris body. They did lots of small runs for commemoratives, organizations and businesses.

While my collection is predominately the earlier AMT, KUSAN and KMT, some of the later Kris boxcars are very nice and I did manage to grab a dozen or so of them, NIB, on Ebay a few years ago at under $10 each. The seller didn't know what he had, apparently. I don't feel any remorse when I have them weathered at that price.

"Kris Model Trains? I am unfamiliar with the name..."

Check out the Yahoo group for AMT, KMT and Kusan and you will get familiar.

Frank's Roundhouse Hood's car.  Metal body, shiny paint, doors do not open. Very similar to a Kris car.  John

This was a Kris car as I looked it up in Grenbergs Guide to Kusan Trains. This guide also includes AMT, KUSAN, KRIS & FRANK'S ROUNDHOUSE

The only KMT car I have is the Stegmaier beer box car.  Took me forever to get it on the bay as they can be pricey, i.e. in the hundred dollar range.  Haven't seen one since.

The extent of my AMT, KMT, Kusan, KRIS & Frank's Roadhouse collection

For more information about products by Frank's Roundhouse, see here:  http://www.robertstrains.com/Frank.htm

Most of the Cars are collectors Items I believe I have 15-20 KMT Cars, they are worth a lot of money, so any I see that are cheap, I buy them.

Most of the Cars are collectors Items I believe I have 15-20 KMT Cars, they are worth a lot of money, so any I see that are cheap, I buy them.

I hope you are purchasing the Kris Model Train cars because you like them. Very few, if any, fetch a premium price. At one time I had quite a few cars, purchased from Andy Kriswalus when he was cleaning out his inventory. I needed the space and pared down my collection of Kris Model Train cars to about a dozen.

I even had some gondolas, which I have not otherwise seen. I should have held onto those.

C W Burfle posted:

Most of the Cars are collectors Items I believe I have 15-20 KMT Cars, they are worth a lot of money, so any I see that are cheap, I buy them.

I hope you are purchasing the Kris Model Train cars because you like them. Very few, if any, fetch a premium price. At one time I had quite a few cars, purchased from Andy Kriswalus when he was cleaning out his inventory. I needed the space and pared down my collection of Kris Model Train cars to about a dozen.

I even had some gondolas, which I have not otherwise seen. I should have held onto those.

The gondolas from the AMT Indiana factory and later Kusan/KMT Franklin, TN facility are somewhat harder to find than the reefers, stockcars and almost all of their boxcars they produced.  AMT and KMT/Kusan made available only one roadname for the gondola - L&N (they did come in shiny and flat black finishes, so you've got a tiny bit of variation) - an odd instance where gondolas are more scarce than the more expensive in the day boxcars, stockcars and reefers.  AMT and KMT/Kusan didn't make many sets, which probably accounts for the small number of gondolas (a favorite car to include in a set for the play value of being able to easily add a load, plus a lot less add-on parts during production).  

The 2nd KMT, Kris Model Trains from Andy Kriswallis (sp?) in New York are the same way - very few gondolas compared to boxcar, stockcar and reefer production.  Kris made lots of very short run cars which explains why some go for pretty good money.  It may be impossible at this point to document production numbers for the Kris cars, so if you run across something you like and it's cheap you might want to buy it - another one may not pop up for a long while.

Any of the KMT and its ancestors are nice pieces; the boxcars are a scale 40", I believe - bigger than the near-scale 6464's. They (not sure which generation - probably AMT) had some metal couplers that generally looked better than Lionel's, but would mate.

If memory serves...the AMT/KMT/etc boxcar molds wound up with Williams (and WBB)...I'm looking at a Williams pre-WBB boxcar right now, and it (the body) sure looks like my KMT/etc pieces. Very nice shells, and sturdy. If it had stirrups (metal, of course) at the corners it would be all I ask of rolling stock - basic, accurate, scale, tough. (Except for that Williams "brake cylinder" - wrong.)

Do you have any of the Crown Metal Products boxcar from KMT?

D500 posted:

Any of the KMT and its ancestors are nice pieces; the boxcars are a scale 40", I believe - bigger than the near-scale 6464's. They (not sure which generation - probably AMT) had some metal couplers that generally looked better than Lionel's, but would mate.

If memory serves...the AMT/KMT/etc boxcar molds wound up with Williams (and WBB)...I'm looking at a Williams pre-WBB boxcar right now, and it (the body) sure looks like my KMT/etc pieces. Very nice shells, and sturdy. If it had stirrups (metal, of course) at the corners it would be all I ask of rolling stock - basic, accurate, scale, tough. (Except for that Williams "brake cylinder" - wrong.)

Here's the sequence of moves for the dies that were originally cut for Jack Ferris' American Model Train train line based in Auburn, Indiana:

AMT/Auburn (Indiana) to Kusan/KMT (Tennessee) to Kris Model Trains/KMT#2 (New York) to Williams (Maryland) to Williams by Bachmann (China).

AMT boxcars, stockcars, and reefers had diecast frames, trucks and metal operating couplers with a simulated airhose that could be opened with an uncoupling track section that had a mechanism that lifted and pushed the airhose up and uncoupled the car.

Kusan/KMT (Tennessee) continued with the same features as the AMT cars.  Kris/KMT#2 (New York) came with a sheet metal frame like the Lionel 6464 series cars used.  Early examples have Lionel diecast trucks, many have MPC plastic trucks, some turn up with the AMT diecast truck with airhose.  I'll let someone familiar with Frank's Roundhouse and Bachmann/Williams by Bachmann fill in the details on what trucks were used with those cars as I collect AMT/Auburn and Kusan/KMT cars witha few Kris cars added to the mix.

There were actually three different "scales" of boxcars from this family tree. There were small ones that matched, roughly, the Lionel 027 el cheapo cars.

There were the ones with a fixed closed door / fixed open door that were exactly the same size as Lionel's 34xx/6464 series. This batch came as kits, which included the body, the floor, and two plastic .trucks with integral plastic couplers. They could be assembled in 5 minutes with a screwdriver

And then there were the largest series, that everyone covets.

In that largest series, there were the really heavy ones with great graphics, such as the B&O, the NYCRR Pacemaker, and the "Better for Baby" cars, followed by a series of rather bland ones that were painted in a variety of boxcar red paint schemes, and finally the last batch of this size, that transitioned to the huge variety put out by Frank's Roundhouse.  

It's possible for a modeler to have a long train of dark red boxcars, in many different railroad names, or a freight yard thickly populated with them. 

Good to know. Always liked the scale-er pieces - and I had the fixed-door 6464-sized boxcar at one time; traded it. Unfortunately, I became aware of KMT, etc, a little too late, and they are no longer cheapies, I guess (I'd better go do some Bay-lurking). But, I can enjoy a modern product of old dies - or copies of old dies - in a way that appreciates the DNA - that Wms boxcar shell, for example. 

Gordon Z posted:

For more information about products by Frank's Roundhouse, see here:  http://www.robertstrains.com/Frank.htm

 

Robert is a long-time Forum member and in addition to the Frank’s Roundhouse page link posted by Gordon, Robert also has pages for AMT, Kusan and Kris, all with many photos.  Just click on the “Other Makers” link at the bottom of his FRH page

HTH,

Bill

D500 posted:

Good to know. Always liked the scale-er pieces - and I had the fixed-door 6464-sized boxcar at one time; traded it. Unfortunately, I became aware of KMT, etc, a little too late, and they are no longer cheapies, I guess (I'd better go do some Bay-lurking). But, I can enjoy a modern product of old dies - or copies of old dies - in a way that appreciates the DNA - that Wms boxcar shell, for example. 

The first series of the nearly full scale AMT cars were almost all varying shades of boxcar red/brown save for a few colorful cars like the B&O Sentinel and M&StL green.  The reefer cars came in the colorful Gerber Baby Food scheme, and a bright yellow SF car.  The MKT stockcar was colorful in it's yellow paint as well.  All of the cars (save for the Gerber) aren't too expensive as Kusan/KMT continued producing them after the AMT/Auburn sale.

Things get into the expensive zone once Kusan/KMT took over production.  Many of the Kusan/KMT cars are extremely colorful, and the boxcar red/brown cars they designed are tough to track down as well.  I got many of the toughest cars via Ebay years ago before the prices went sky high as people started noticing how nice they were.  Several came from the selling off of Al Cox's collection, including a couple prototypes painted on one side only/decaled (B&M and B&O Timesaver).  The link to Robert's Trains a few posts back is an excellent introduction to AMT/KMT 1950s production.

MTN posted:

Here's the sequence of moves for the dies that were originally cut for Jack Ferris' American Model Train train line based in Auburn, Indiana:

AMT/Auburn (Indiana) to Kusan/KMT (Tennessee) to Kris Model Trains/KMT#2 (New York) to Williams (Maryland) to Williams by Bachmann (China).

AMT boxcars, stockcars, and reefers had diecast frames, trucks and metal operating couplers with a simulated airhose that could be opened with an uncoupling track section that had a mechanism that lifted and pushed the airhose up and uncoupled the car.

Kusan/KMT (Tennessee) continued with the same features as the AMT cars.  Kris/KMT#2 (New York) came with a sheet metal frame like the Lionel 6464 series cars used.  Early examples have Lionel diecast trucks, many have MPC plastic trucks, some turn up with the AMT diecast truck with airhose.  I'll let someone familiar with Frank's Roundhouse and Bachmann/Williams by Bachmann fill in the details on what trucks were used with those cars as I collect AMT/Auburn and Kusan/KMT cars witha few Kris cars added to the mix.

MTN:

Thanks for posting the good summary of AMT, Kusan and Kris production.  And thanks also for explaining that there were two different companies which used the initials KMT as they are often mistaken for each other. 

I would also add that after just a few years of using the AMT molds, Kusan (the KMT #1) made a significant change in their train product line by coming out with a new series, called the K-series, which included the shorter box cars referred to by Arthur above.  This line of trains was NOT made from the AMT molds and is considerably different.  The freight cars in this line were designed to run on either 3-rail or 2-rail track O Gauge track.  As a result they were all plastic including the trucks, couplers and WHEELS.  The K-series ALCO diesel locomotives were 2-rail DC and therefore not interchangeable with traditional O gauge trains of that era.      

Now regarding Frank’s Roundhouse, Frank Rash was a subcontractor to Andy Kriswalus who then took over after Andy had a severe heart attack in 1980.  Among the realistic distinguishing features added by Frank not previously used on AMT-molded box cars, were reporting marks on the ends of the cars and door opening dimensional data stamped on the doors.  Also Frank’s produced many cars with multiple road numbers (for example he made the NYC Pacemaker box car in 21 different road numbers).  Frank’s cars are found with many different types of trucks, including plastic Lionel MPC, die-cast sprung trucks and plastic Bettendorf trucks with or without Brake Shoes which BTW were made for Frank’s by Mike Wolf.  Initially the cars decorated by Frank were delivered to Andy to sell repackaged in Andy’s Red, Blue and White Kris Model Trains boxes.  Later, as Andy’s business tapered down due to his medical issues, Frank sold the cars in plain “no-name” white boxes with identifying info rubber stamped in dark gray on one end label of those boxes.  Because of the plain boxes these cars are still often referred to as “KMT” or "Kris” even though by this time Andy Kriswalus was no longer involved in their production.  For more information on Frank’s click on the link to Robert’s trains website posted by Gordon above which contains additional background info as well as photos of about 350 different O gauge cars and engines produced by Frank Rash under the Frank’s Roundhouse or Custom Trains names. 

Then along came Williams.  Many of early Williams production of these box cars have exactly the same graphics as the corresponding Frank’s Roundhouse car including the same road numbers.  They can be distinguished from FRH cars by the air brake tanks on the underside.

Another excellent source of information on the history and use of the AMT molds was an article “Toy Train Tooling is Forever” published in OGR Run #163 (January 1999) which was written by Ed Boyle and Dave Seaman with plenty of input provided by an interview with Frank Rash. 

HTH,

Bill

A grey depressed center flat car was also made. I don't recall whether it was first made by AMT or KMT.  I don't think Kris Model Trains ever made it.

Since Frank's was reputed to be doing short custom runs, and I wanted western road names,  and something to sell at Wheaton, early in my return to O gauge,  I visited Frank's, but it appeared they were closing down.  It was a year (can't remember which) when the Susquehanna was in flood, and I had to take a circuitous route to get to his shop.   I didn't pursue that idea there, with Weaver, or Bowser (who I talked to about that time).  Somebody at Bowser at the time was talking about gaining a lot of manufacturing space.  They have since moved.

C W Burfle posted:

A grey depressed center flat car was also made. I don't recall whether it was first made by AMT or KMT.  I don't think Kris Model Trains ever made it.

The depressed center flatcar was an AMT mold - it only appeared painted for Monon (red letter AMT and maroon lettered Kusan/KMT) - a pricey model today, sadly for this native Hoosier.  The KMT car was molded in a light turquoise colored plastic that also showed up in Kusan/KMT's F unit shell.

With all of the Kusan/KMT cars, you might run into diecast trucks that have plastic wheels.  Kusan/KMT had an option called Duo-Trac for 2 rail operation.  The F unit  and passenger cars came with insulated wheels and a switch on the bottom of the chassis that allowed one to run on 2 or 3 rail track - neat trick for the 50s.  I have a C&NW passenger set that's set up that way.

The AMT/KMT molds may still exist but are probably in China.  I believe Williams, RMT and K-Line came out with products that used them.  I am told the Williams F7 loco series is made on former AMT molds as well as the RMT beeps were.

I have "K" Series Flat car. It was made by KUSAN K.M.T .  KUSAN-AUBURN, Inc., Nashville TN.

It is black and 100% plastic, I bought it for the L&N name. It is an OK car.

Brent

While on the topic of Kusan, Kris, last year I purchased a battery powered (two C size) a Kusan Gravey Train brand new in box with plastic two rail track. The set is all white with only the boxcar having any markings. It just says GRAVEY TRAIN in black.The engine is a beep type with small space with KUSAN on it.

I have been told this a very early Williams set. Can someone let me know if this is a Kusan or Williams.

Also my engine has no railings, did it come like that.

railroad man posted:

While on the topic of Kusan, Kris, last year I purchased a battery powered (two C size) a Kusan Gravey Train brand new in box with plastic two rail track. The set is all white with only the boxcar having any markings. It just says GRAVEY TRAIN in black.The engine is a beep type with small space with KUSAN on it.

I have been told this a very early Williams set. Can someone let me know if this is a Kusan or Williams.

Also my engine has no railings, did it come like that.

Kusan made that - boxcar has Gravy Train logo, rest is unmarked, no handrails.  The shipping label on the box wouldn't have a zipcode.

As a follow up to early Williams, the same place that I got the Kusan Gravy Train set, I also got four cars from the early Williams NASA set. NASA caboose, NASA boxcar, NASA radio antenna car and the depressed NASA flat car (no cradle or rocket) I have been trying for years to get the Williams NASA beep.

Dennis LaGrua posted:

The AMT/KMT molds may still exist but are probably in China.  I believe Williams, RMT and K-Line came out with products that used them.  I am told the Williams F7 loco series is made on former AMT molds as well as the RMT beeps were.

Dennis:

Not sure what you mean by “AMT/KMT molds”.   There are molds developed by AMT still in use today and there are molds developed by Kusan (aka KMT or as MTN pointed out above “KMT #1" still in use today.

The original AMT box, stock and reefer car molds from which the Kris (KMT #2) Marine Midland car which started this thread was made, still exist as they are still being used by Williams (now called Williams by Bachmann).  AMT also developed the F-7 molds to which you referred which were later used by Kusan (KMT #1) and Williams who is still using them also.  

But the loco now called the “Beep” came from a completely different set of molds which were developed by Kusan (KMT #1) to produce their K-series product line.  The K-series was developed a few years after Kusan had purchased the AMT tooling as a low-cost alternative to the AMT product line.  The only “connection” to AMT these molds have is that they enabled Kusan to discontinue the former AMT product line!  The loco using this shortened Geep mold was later made by Williams and then by RMT who was the company that named it the “Beep”.  

As I previously posted there is very much confusion regarding who made what by the various companies that used these molds over the years especially when two different companies used the initials “KMT”.     

HTH,

Bill

Regarding molds for the scale sized AMT/Auburn and later Kusan/KMT#1 production:

• The F unit:  AMT/Auburn mold; these can be identified by a hump in the middle of the roof, clear plastic shell.  Kusan/KMT #1 upgraded that mold (no more hump, better detailed screens along the carbody sides, shells are a turquoise colored plastic.
• Scale sized boxcar:  AMT/Auburn mold
• Scale sized reefer:  AMT/Auburn mold
• Scale sized stockcar:  AMT/Auburn mold
• Scale sized (maybe a touch under) depressed center flatcar:  AMT/Auburn mold
• Scale sized high sided gondola:  AMT/Auburn mold
• Scale sized C&O caboose:  AMT/Auburn mold
• Proposed models from AMT/Auburn (cataloged but never produced): B unit for the EMD F unit shown in a drawing on a flyer put out by AMT/Auburn, and plastic passenger cars (never produced) to go with the Silver Streak F unit, which was produced in extremely limited quantities by AMT/Auburn
• Considered for production: AMT/Auburn scale sized PA diesel A unit; I have a factory drawing of such an engine (way too large to scan and post).  This would have been a far more interesting choice for production than the F unit they produced to compete with Lionel; might have been inspired by American Flyer's S scale model that came out in 1950

Non-scale sized O gauge molds:

• RDC:  AMT/Auburn mold; molded in clear plastic, windows are solid; Kusan/KMT#1 modified the mold by opening the windows, shells are a sort of tuscan/brownish colored plastic.  Much smaller than scale sized.  Once Kusan/KMT#1 stopped manufacturing trains the RDC disappeared and has never reappeared.  It's possible that the RDC molds/dies went to All-Nation; I have a catalog somewhere showing the AMT/Auburn Kusan/KMT#1 RDC being advertised with an improved drive (the AMT drive had a lightweight motor prone to splitting its armature windings) after Kusan/KMT#1 ceased train production.  I've not come across any RDC's with a husky All-Nation drive under the hood.  This is not the same RDC that Marx, and later K-Line (and RMT) produced.  The AMT RDC was smaller/shorter than the Lionel model, but longer and better proportioned than the Marx model.  It also had the best representation of RDC truck sideframes for an O gauge toy train non-scale sized model.

I believe the smaller than full scale 2 bay hopper and tankcar models that Kusan/KMT#1 produced (familiar to people today as the models you could buy as kits with the neat-o Kusan graphics depicting the particular models in full color) were from AMT/Auburn plans/drawings - I'd like confirmation on whether or not production of those particular cars was started at AMT/Auburn or not.

Andy's wife recently passed away. Andy had a small warehouse in Endicott, NY and was a neighbor of mine many years ago. He was also a Lionel distributer and enjoyed experimenting with his special line of train cars. The warehouse is still there and appears abandoned. Endicott was the original home of IBM.

He was also a Lionel distributer and enjoyed experimenting with his special line of train cars.

The 1974 Lionel Coke set was Andy's idea. He was supposed to get the entire run, but Lionel reneged on the deal.

Thanks to Mike, Bill and Arthur for posting some great information in this thread. Here are some photos of the Kris gondolas:

Algoma Central 5522 black; round logo; white lettering.

Bessemer & Lake Erie 18022 orange; black lettering.

Chessie System B & O 2551 black; yellow lettering.

Indiana Harbor Belt 6004 black; white lettering.

Kaiser Bauxite Company Ltd - Kaiser Aluminum 5221 gray; black lettering.

Monongahela 1220 black; graffiti; white lettering.

Ontario Northland 140008 black; logo; white lettering.

Pacific Great Eastern 282 orange; caribou logo; black lettering.

Reading 265144 black; white lettering.

Southern 1602 gray; red lettering.

Texas Mexican 641 green; yellow lettering.

Texas Mexican 641 green; black lettering.

Union Railroad 899 black; round logo; white lettering.

West Virginia; no road number; black; yellow graphics and lettering.

Weyerhaeuser Timber 101 black; round logo; yellow lettering.

Weyerhaeuser Timber 101 green; round logo; yellow lettering.

Unassembled, unlettered and unnumbered green gondola kit.
The plastic bag contains parts for the trucks and wheels.

Thanks for the photos of the gondolas.

All those gondolas are riding on the diecast AMT truck with Lift-a-Matic couplers; the box, stock and reefer cars came with all manner trucks from Kris.  I wouldn't mind tracking down one of those Indiana Harbor Belt gons...  

All the cars that I purchased directly from Andy had the diecast AMT trucks, with
lift-a-matic couplers, painted black.

Some of Andy's old ads gave the customer the choice of purchasing his cars with AMT style trucks or Lionel trucks.
Several years after Andy passed, I met a fellow who owned a hobby shop in the Utica area. He told me that he had cases of Lionel rolling stock with the trucks removed. Apparently Andy purchased Lionel cars on closeout from the factory, and took the trucks for his cars.

There was also a fellow at York selling off odds and ends from Andy's estate for a few years. He had things like gondola shells and boxcar shells / frames, all less trucks. He also had 8010 chassis, minus the motor trucks and NOS AMT/KMT 7 pole motors. lots of other stuff too.

This was a neat thread. I picked up this box car in the middle 70s and really knew nothing about it's origins. Just found out it was probably made in Mexico by Plasticos Leon who had the molds. Build date was 4-65.

My K-line boxcars from 1980’s look a lot like the mold for the Kusan “one door open” style cars was somehow modified to have 2 operating doors.  Any information on how K-Line did those?

Andy Z, Boston Metro Hi-Railers

@Andy Zalewski posted:

My K-line boxcars from 1980’s look a lot like the mold for the Kusan “one door open” style cars was somehow modified to have 2 operating doors.  Any information on how K-Line did those?

Andy Z, Boston Metro Hi-Railers

Cut a new tool for the sides.

Rusty

Wow...never seen, or maybe, noticed,   any of those Kris gondolas....  This posting is a good history l'd like in print...guess there isn't a "Greenberg"  book listing and picturing "350" Kris cars?

Does RMT Trains have anything to do with any of the molds discussed? Mark

Kris Model Trains made convention cars for TTOS for several years. My favorite is this cattle car made for the convention in 1972. The cost to attend the convention was $12.00 which included this car.

Kris made this EJ&E car for a 1977 TTOS meet in Chicago.

@Andy Zalewski posted:

My K-line boxcars from 1980’s look a lot like the mold for the Kusan “one door open” style cars was somehow modified to have 2 operating doors.  Any information on how K-Line did those?

Andy Z, Boston Metro Hi-Railers

According to the K-Line book put out in 1999 they modified the existing mold to remove the details did needed to be removed and added the the new ones that needed to be added.   Actually that may be in reverse since if you want a rivet showing you have to put a divet in the mold.

When this mold finally wore out the new 640 mold (tooling) they developed had removable sides so that they could produce different cars, box, reefer etc using the same basic tooling.

Does anybody own the old Kris Model Trains Molds?

@jim sutter posted:

Does anybody own the old Kris Model Trains Molds?

Bachmann? Pretty sure their Williams boxcars at least are KMT cars.

Pete

Norton, Thank you.

A bit more about the Marine Midland box car.  Prior to statewide branching being permitted in NY,  MMBI, Marine Midlnd Banks, Inc., was a bank holding company for regional "Marine Midland" banks.  The MMB cars produced by KMT were for Marine Midland Bank Southern which was the Binghamton NY,  MMB bank. The regional banks were merged into a single Marine Midland Bank, in 1975/76 prior to being purchased by HSBC in the early 1980's. I was ultimately an attorney/VP with MMB.  Aat a train show I acquired a metal trucked MMB box car, which was promptly displayed in my Buffalo office.  I subsequently contacted Mr. Kriswallace (sp!), was told the history of this car, and purchased the final "MMB Southern" car which he had. It had/still has plastic trucks rather than the earlier metal trucks. HSBC ultimately withdrew from the Upstate NY retail market. Many branches now belong to the then competitor, M&T Bank, the only remaining Buffalo based. bank.