Kusan Questions

I believe Kusan is related to KMT of which I have about ten of their box cars. I am told they scale out to about 96% of true 1/48th. KMT stood for Kris Model Trains, I think from the Binghamton, NY area. Pretty close to the Lionel cars to which you refer.

These were inexpensive and the graphics are superb and they are trouble-free runners. Placed in a scale consist, they break up the monotony of rolling boxes.

Films of late steam show a variety of box car heights--so it looks fine to me.

Hope this helps.

Rob M

quote:

Originally posted by laming:
Hi All:

Anybody here into Kusan? If so:

* How do their Alco FA's run?

* Is the rolling stock close in size to the Lionel 6464/etc cars? (i.e. "Traditional")

* Will their couplers mate with Lionel knuckle couplers?

Thanks for any input you can offer. Sort of find some of their stuff interesting.

Andre

The FAs were pure junk. Kusan also was the original source for
Walter Matuch's BEEP tooling. Walt's BEEPS run NICELY. Kusan's were JUNK. As for the Kusan cars, those with die cast trucks are EXCELLENT, those with plastic trucks are best left to the collector's shelf. There is no hard and fast rule with American Models/Kusan trains. It can be said that their aluminum passenger cars and metal trucked freight cars were some of the finest toy trains ever made but the company never made a really good running locomotive. The tooling for their F units and Beeps went to Williams and of course RMT now uses the BEEP shell for his FINE RUNNING mechanism. I don't know what happened to the Kusan FA tools. If you have an operational Kusan FA, PLEASE POST PICTURES or better yet a video of it running because I never have seen one in operating condition in 45 years in this hobby. BTW, I think the FAs were 2-rail pickup with deep flanges.

The Kusan FA'a became K-line.

The plastic-coupler Kusans were nice traditional-sized pieces. They run well,
given the limitations of plastic trucks and wheelsets. They need weight,
big time.

Their road names were a relief from Lionel's inevitable PRR, etc. You could
actually get L&N and GM&O rolling stock from them - back then.

Of course, the RMT trucks solve their problems.

Thanks for the input, fella's.

From the sounds of it:

* I need to have my eyes open on a piece of rolling stock I find interesting: Diecast trucks prefered.

* The FA's looked great, ran/run like crap. That's a real shame. They were offered in some interesting road names.

Thanks again!

Andre

An excellent reference is Greenberg's Guide to Kusan Trains by John Bradshaw. It also includes American Model Toys and Kris Model Trains.

The AMT/Kusan box cars are larger than the Lionel 6464 boxcars, about 1/8 of an inch shorter than the current Weaver scale 1932 boxcars. They originally had diecast white metal frames, later, as marketed by Kris/KMT, they had sheet metal frames and some had Lionel trucks and couplers. The Kusan knuckle couplers are the same size as the Lionel couplers and mate easily with them. Williams now has the dies for the Kusan box cars, stock cars and reefers.

KMT "K" series boxcars with plastic trucks are slightly smaller than Lionel 6464 boxcars. They have plastic trucks, plastic frames and non movable doors, one door open and one closed. K-Line acquired these dies and made many improvements, adding movable doors, sheet metal frames, diecast trucks and much better paint. RMT now has the dies and has made further improvements.

Allan

quote:

Originally posted by D500:
The Kusan FA'a became K-line.

The plastic-coupler Kusans were nice traditional-sized pieces. They run well,
given the limitations of plastic trucks and wheelsets. They need weight,
big time.

Their road names were a relief from Lionel's inevitable PRR, etc. You could
actually get L&N and GM&O rolling stock from them - back then.

Of course, the RMT trucks solve their problems.

I would agree that they had nice road names. however those which are in nice shape deserve preservation. especially if they are MIB unassembled kits. (Yes some came that way)

Thanks again for imparting more information! Information = purchasing knowledge.

LOVE some of the roadnames and paint I'm seeing on some of the Kusan/KMT FA's I've stumbled across... but trying to adapt it to 3 rail would be a royal pain and not worth it. Besides, like techie says, if a MIB example, would seem a shame to destroy it adapting said shell to a 3 rail chassis.

Me thinks the better option would be to purchase worthy Lionel Postwar repaint candidates (i.e. run good but the paint/lettering is shot) and create my own via airbrush and decals. Hmmm.

Ah well... dreaming is one of the most fun parts of this hobby!

Andre

I wonder if the Kusan bodies would fit on the K-Line chassis without modification?

John

Andre, I'm reading this but in kind of puzzlement.

The only Kusan I remember was from the mid '50s and it was nothing at all like what's described here. It was a scale sized train set with an FA called the "Cannon Ball" and a caboose and about three cars. But, the WHOLE thing was in plastic and nothing more than a push toy. No motors or metal parts of any kind.

It WAS however good looking and as far as I recall, scale size. The FA was bigger than Lionel's famous 027 FAs of the same era. It more closely resembled Lionel's F3s in size. I think the engine was silver and black, but my memory on that could be faulty after all these decades. I believe the cars were larger than Lionel traditional 6464 size and more resembled scale steelside boxcar models. The caboose was the same. It was a nice looking caboose, an EV model with a smoke pipe on the roof.

That train went away at some point, or was given away. Last I saw of it was about '60...I hope it became worth something to collectors or whomever..

This Chihuahua Al Pacifico Kusan Shell is running on a K-Line 2 motored chassis

Speaking of their boxcars, there was another series that they offered in a kit form.

1. There were the el cheapo, molded-door cars that matched the Lionel 34xx series.

2. The molded-door cars that almost exactly matched the 6464 series in size:

click

3. The larger, almost scale cars with sliding doors:

click

The 6464 size were in a kit form. The parts were the shell, floor, two trucks with non-operating couplers, two self-tapping screws to fasten the trucks, and sometimes a brakeman who could be glued inside the open door. The other side had a closed door.

I have a couple of the PRR versions and a few undecorated, white plastic, ones in original boxes.

There are also tank cars, gondolas, hoppers, flatcars, stock cars, and cabeese in undecorated kits. I have a few examples of each that I bought from a toy store that was closing a number of years ago.

In the fwiw dept, just a few other things about the Kusan Cannon Ball set I had. The couplers were plastic and closed. They didn't open. I used to mix the set with early Lionel cars and engines. The engine was run with a Lionel engine to provide power and the cars rode along OK even though the wheels were plastic. I suspect they would have worn down quickly though if used much.

The pilot was slotted like the ones in the photos here. But, I have doubts if the mold used to make that engine would have lent itself to a fully operational model.

Kusan Alco shells will not fit on the Lionel chassis without some major modifications. The K-Line Alco tooling was originally Kusan tooling that is why the Kusan Alco shell is interchangable with the K-Line Chassis.

Wow. You guy's are impressive. Thanks very much for additional helpful input.

I'm trying to keep this info sorted correctly in case I get a Kusan "wild hair" in the future. Let me see if I've got this straight:

* The molded door Kusan/KMT/?? boxcar models match up well in size with the 6464 series, but have cheapo plastic trucks/couplers.

* The sliding door Kusan/KMT/?? are BIGGER than the 6464 series. (Badly noticable or barely noticable?)

* The Kusan/KMT/?? FA's have crap 2 rail mechanisms BUT the shell will mate up on a K-Line FA chassis. (With some front coupler slot widening possibly.)

Like I said... I really liked those Mop and MKT KMT FA's. I'm armed with more knowledge now... perhaps one of these days another excellent example of one or the other (both?) will show up and I'll be better informed as to making a decision. (Instead of ignorantly sitting by the wayside watching the eBay minutes tick down to zero!)

Steve Eastman:

You say the "early" K-Line FA chassis. Problems with the later ones? What year cut-off are you talking about?

Edit:

Bill Terry:

I see you posted while I was replying, Thanks. I figured it would be a cut/modify/fit situation to get a Kusan/KMT FA shell onto a Lionel chassis, but I see you reinforce the concept of Kusan/KMT onto K-Line. Any other precautions or other issues I need to be aware of?

Andre

quote:

Bill Terry:

I see you posted while I was replying, Thanks. I figured it would be a cut/modify/fit situation to get a Kusan/KMT FA shell onto a Lionel chassis, but I see you reinforce the concept of Kusan/KMT onto K-Line. Any other precautions or other issues I need to be aware of?

Andre

Andre, the only issue I had with the Kusan Alco shell fitting on the K-Line chassis is that you may have to shave about 1/16 of an inch where the K-Line coupler passes through the Kusan front apron. Other than that it is a simple bolt on, even the 4 mounting screw holes line up perfectly.

Thanks Bill!

Now, do you guys realize what you've done???? Sheesh... now I'll be watching postwar Lionel, some K-Line, and Kusan, etc, etc, on eBay!!!!

OH... and did you guys know that Kusan also offered a FRISCO FA set???? Frisco has looooong been a weakness of mine.

Scroll down and behold the Black and Yellow:

http://www.robertstrains.com/Kusan1.htm

In fact, to my eyes, they made a LOT of nice stuff... including (apparently) two versions of Missouri Pacific FA's. (Mop FA's = Another weakness I have!)

Andre

I have most of the Kusan Alcos but these two guys along with the Chihuahua Al Pacifico are probably the most interesting.

Bill Terry:

Nice pics! I do like the proportions of the Kusan K series FA's. I think they sit just a tad higher than the Postwar Lionel 2023/2031/2032 FA's, but not as high as the Postwar Lionel 200 series FA's. Very pleasing proportions to me.

Bill aka wfttrains:

Right you are! It has been a bit of a confusing journey learning about AMT/Kusan/Etc. However, it has been a fun experience and one that I'll put to use eventually!

Andre

quote:

Originally posted by techie:
If you have an operational Kusan FA, PLEASE POST PICTURES or better yet a video of it running because I never have seen one in operating condition in 45 years in this hobby. BTW, I think the FAs were 2-rail pickup with deep flanges.

Yes, the FAs were two-rail with deep flanged wheels. Here are a couple of videos that you've waited 45 years to see.

Now that's what I am talking about! Toy Trains at their finest. Thanks for posting that.