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I have a few questions regarding the Lionel 6-22983 Powerhouse 180.

  1. I have an older brick (2002ish) on which the illumination of the power switch no longer works (output is fine)  Where can I obtain a replacement illuminated switch? ( not listed on Lionel's support site)  Also, how does one open it to replace the switch? (no exposed fasteners)
  2. I just picked up a new one to supplement the future layout.  Are there differences  between the new and old?  They have the same part number, but I am curious what changes may have been made in 15 years.
  3. I want to use these to power my layout through an MTH TIU; an adapter plug or cable would be required (i do not want to modify the factory  output cable).  Please provide the appropriate Part Number.

Thanks,

Jim

 

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Here's what I did...the original modified ckt so as to not burn out the LED again...

IMG_1259

The pin #s and shell #s are shown which you can make your own plugs and sockets with parts from Mouser. To mate with the connector on the PH, you need male pins and a female shell. The female shell is # 538-03-09-2032 and the male pins are 539-02-09-2103.

And how I eventually ended up with this neater final ckt...You may have to sort the contacts out a bit to use my "improved" circuit. I don't remember if I had change the wires on the new switch to be able to wire up the new ckt.

PS Switch wiring

The new switch...

IMG_1257

I believe it says 6A 250 vac R19A

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  • PS Switch wiring
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JIM H,

Your

#2. yes there differences in the newer versions of 6-22983. I believe there is a color background on the part # now. (Mikado (Mike Reagan) mentioned this at a York Legacy meeting on the forum.There are differences for two reasons. The first is that the PH was tripping faster than the lock-ons that have a breaker and adapt the power plug to a track connector. (The small trackside house lock-on)

When Lionel and Jon Z. wanted to redesign the circuitry it was discovered that the drawings had been "lost". So, the new version was reverse engineered and new control circuits created.

The short story is that the new version will have a slightly slower trip time. Still faster than any other transformers.

#3 A vendor on eBay used to sell  an adapter cable (PH180 to TIU) made up with the Molex connectors and banana plugs or spade ends. The pointed end is blank, the center pin is AC Hot and the bottom pin is AC Neutral.

get the parts (Cjack hooked you up) and make your own and get a couple of extra parts for perhaps making a different adapter or one for friend.

 

I hunted the existing inventory for mine, only because it was a known entity to me. I also didn't want to mix new and old due any possible differences.

New question answer:

I do not know if the power feed for the On LED light was redesigned with a DC power supply. email the question to SantaFeFan.

The AC is ok as long as you include the 1N4003 diode to block the reverse AC cycle. And a sufficiently large resistor (like 10K, 1 Watt) to limit the current in the LED.

However if the LED were powered with the output voltage AC, (not easy since it’s inside the switch) it could show that the breaker was thrown.

The key point in this discussion is above where MOONMAN on 11/4/17 at 6:37 am writes in reply to a question, whether there were differences in the newer 180w PH.

-------------------------------> Quote:

"JIM H, Your #2. yes there differences in the newer versions of 6-22983. I believe there is a color background on the part # now. (Mikado (Mike Reagan) mentioned this at a York Legacy meeting on the forum.There are differences for two reasons. The first is that the PH was tripping faster than the lock-ons that have a breaker and adapt the power plug to a track connector. (The small trackside house lock-on)...

"When Lionel and Jon Z. wanted to redesign the circuitry it was discovered that the drawings had been "lost". So, the new version was reverse engineered and new control circuits created...

"The short story is that the new version will have a slightly slower trip time. Still faster than any other transformers."

<------------------------------- End quote.

The issue is that the 180w PH does not contain a breaker per se (and the 135w PH likewise --this comment about the 135w is misleading as GRJ pointed out below, in that my comment implies that the 135w PH has a supervisory circuit similar to the later 180w PH; these circuits are different.  See my correction post below--11/10/17  ), but rather a supervised relay.  Supervision is automatic by a timed delay which IIRC had a timed delay possibly decreasing as overcurrent increases.  The purpose of this relay is to enforce the added Toy Transformer standard 697 which required that output current over 10 amps be corrected within a certain time.

Concurrently, the new standard removed the previous requirement that such transformers contain a breaker capable of interrupting ANY current the transformer could produce.  This of course is the so-called "short-circuit" current of the particular size of PH.  I measured this at 77 amps for the 135w PH, and extrapolated this to the 180w PH as 110 amps, assuming a similar design.  [A poster here, GRJ IIRC, posted data that suggested 100 amps-- I think his figure is okay.]

The issue here is that the Millionspot relay used (in the 135w PH) is at most rated to break only its nominal rating (10 or 15 amps for the 135w, can't recall; I heard a larger relay was used in the older 180w PH--20 amp?).  This leads to contact damage-- burning open or welding closed-- if a short circuit, or several, above these values occurs, IF this internal overcurrent device is the first device to open.

Obviously Lionel got the standard 697 changed (consultation with manufacturers is normal) by proposing a system of cascaded protection.  The special connector is used to limit the devices which can be connected downstream, by an agreement which is not written out in the standard 697.  This standard, by long standing agreement, does not apply to connected devices downstream of toy transformers.  However:

Since the pesky plug is part of the PH, cutting it off will invalidate the UL approval of the PH.  Then, since the PH has written instructions of to what it may be connected, using the cheater plug from the internet (~$20) doesn't follow these instructions.  Would you know, failure to follow these instructions will also invalidate that UL approval of the PH.

Often, possibly most often, in a Lionel TMCC or Legacy system, downstream connection is made to a voltage control device (PM, etc.) where two back-to-back MOSFET transistors are used to adjust suppiled voltage downward.  MOSFETs must have extremely fast protection-- so logically they are provided with control wiring which uses them to provide their own protectlon against short circuit.  Here we have the logic of the cascade arrangement:  Total cost is reduced.

Not to worry if you want to power a DCS (or TMCC/Legacy) layout by connecting to a TIU.  Just use the lineside shed lockon with indirect DCS signal injection.  Or, the 10-amp/7-amp switchable unit has a pair of convenient screw terminals inside.  Sure, at ~$40, that's $20 more than the cheater plug.  But look at it this way:  For a mere $20, you can be reasonably assured that you won't weld your $2000 NYC Niagara to the rails, now that Jon Z has straightened out this situation.  I'm guessing Mike R pointed out this problem.   

--Frank     PS-- Chinese factory production engineering on the early PH's?

(Edited 10/11/17 in red above regarding 135w PH tripping circuit per GRJ comment.)

[BTW, don't short-circuit your PH and then plug it in, at least not at home...  there is a  special, much more confusing way to measure maximum short circuit current, without actually having to create it.  But then, confusion around transformers is itself dangerous, of course.]

Last edited by F Maguire
F Maguire posted:
The issue is that the 180w PH does not contain a breaker per se (and the 135w PH likewise), but rather a supervised relay.  Supervision is automatic by a timed delay which IIRC had a timed delay possibly decreasing as overcurrent increases.  The purpose of this relay is to enforce the added Toy Transformer standard 697 which required that output current over 10 amps be corrected within a certain time.

One correction here.  The PH135 has a conventional circuit breaker and doesn't have any circuitry like the PH180.

For the UL rating, what's the difference between the adapter plug and the CT McCormick or ebay adapter? Also, Lionel makes an adapter cable set that connects to the PH-180s and allows connection to different devices. One or two of the cables, I believe (IIRC), has bare wires on the output ends for connection to almost anything I suppose. Would the UL rating still apply with the genuine Lionel parts only because Lionel made them? And would not apply to anyone else making a similar product? I'm guessing here...just curious...

FWIW, the Lionel cable set is a 6-14194

I do understand the UL ratings being very picky. In my working life we had the same problems with fire/smoke dampers for commercial buildings (hospitals included) and maintaining the UL ratings if someone had to take something off of them to get them installed. It's been 20 years since I had to deal with any of that and I am now retired, but I do remember this causing problems. Seems like the manufacturer had to assemble and test everything for the UL rating and if someone altered anything it was no longer 'assembled and tested' by the manufacturer and no way to field test them per UL specs. I may be off a little here (old memory), but I think that was most of it or very similar anyway.

Last edited by rtr12

Since that would be half-wave with the diode and LED, it would dissipate around .7W.  Still gonna' get somewhat toasty I would imagine.  The 14.8K resistor should dissipate less power and also provide less current to the LED.  Don't know why someone suggested lowering the resistor as a reliability measure, but that's not how you do it.

Last edited by gunrunnerjohn

Installed the new switch, used the original 14.8k resistor, and added a 1n4004.

Back in business.

One of the things that threw me in the posted schematic was the use of  "COM" for one wires.

 

I interpreted this as the "Common" track feed.  I was scratching my head looking for any connection from the secondary winding to the existing switch.  It is actually neutral wire of the power cord, which has the neutral side of the transformer primary winding splice into it, just out of sight...

Thanks all.

_jim

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Last edited by Jim Harrington

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