Looking for some opinions on this topic, how many people here own the Legacy Lionmaster Class A's? Any good reviews on it? Something worth buyin?
Let me know!
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IMO too high of a price for a loco that doesn't have legacy speed control. The old TMCC versions are better runners.
And Lionel CTO John Z's answer regarding the crappy speed control..... " my bad"
I have the ATSF one. Sounds fabulous, smokes great, but way way way to fast. It's the only locomotive I've owned that's come flying off of an O72 curve. Thankfully it was a curve along a wall and not in the middle of the room. It wasn't even at full speed either. Lionel's reply when I asked about it, that's normal operation. I'll keep it, but will be looking at how to rewire it to run a lot slower for sure.
How did they manage to release a Legacy locomotive without speed control. Thankfully, I've never had that experience. 
I looked at the parts breakdown, and they used the back-EMF motor control, similar to the ERR Cruise Commander M, I wonder why it's so inferior to what you get with the CC-M? I wonder what got screwed up?
691BEMC064 BEMC / MOTOR DRIVER / CLASS A / 682208 #1212
It has speed control, it's just not very refined, or slow. It's not as slow as a tach Legacy on speed step 1, but it is still slow enough I'm happy with that. But the speed go up exponentially instead of lineally, so it's already at max safe speed for me at the Slow speed preset. I think I set a speed limit (Only locomotive that I've had to do it to.) at speed step 50 or 60. Any more than that and I risk flying off of the track (O72 even!). Not even my old Marx tin steam locomotive goes this fast. But this is my only complaint about it, that it's too fast. Not being able to MU it isn't that big a deal as I bought it to run the same time I run my MTH PS-1 RK Cab Forward and K-Line Big Boy and Allegheny.
I'm wondering if this particular back-EMF driver is only processing 100 speed steps, if so that would mean that 60 would be pretty fast. 60 steps on a true Legacy speed control is 30% of the maximum throttle, sounds like this one has 100 speed steps and 60 steps is 60% of the maximum throttle. Only someone like Jon Z. could truly answer that question.
I have the N&W Legacy Class A. The engine is really great as far as looks and the spectacular sound system. But I 'm not at all happy with the operation. I don't have a problem with the speed of the engine, but I do wish it would operate at slower speeds. My main issue with it is, it does not like Ross Custom Switches. I have Gargraves track and Ross switches. The engine constantly stalls when it comes to these switches. No other Legacy engine (steam or diesel) does this. I have about 35 Legacy engines and none of them stall at Ross switches. I can't find any reason for this behavior. The engine has been back to Lionel and it still does this. Of course they say the engine runs well, but they are running it on Fastrack. I have no intention of replacing my track with Fastrack.
I have run a one-wire power tether to the tender on a number of locomotives that have issues with switches, that solves the problem. I put a 1.85A trip PTC in series with the tether to protect against derailments, but it's totally solved the issue with locomotives that stall on switches.
Could you explain the need for the 1.85A trip PTC and what a PTC is? thanks John.
Back to the real issue. What is wrong with the speed curve on this one and and the 0-8-0 that I sent back?
A PTC is basically a slow-blow fuse you don't have to replace.
PTC's increase resistance as temperature increases due to increased current flow. Designed to limit unsafe currents while allowing constant safe current levels, resistance will "reset" automatically when the fault is removed and temperature returns to a safe levels.
The reason I use them is if you derail either the engine or the tender and the center roller sits on the outside track, full transformer current can flow in the tether wiring. Unless it's pretty robust, what usually happens is it cooks the tether necessitating a repair of the tether. The PTC just protects against that eventuality while not affecting normal operation.
Railroadtrip445 posted:Looking for some opinions on this topic, how many people here own the Legacy Lionmaster Class A's? Any good reviews on it? Something worth buyin?
Let me know!
Matt, I have had my loco gone back 4 times to Lionel since i bought it november. I would look for a TMCC version and up grade it to your liking. But when it runs, it runs amazing and sounds amazing.
I love my Legacy version I just don't care for the very sensitive throttle response from the ERR board they used in these.
gunrunnerjohn posted:I'm wondering if this particular back-EMF driver is only processing 100 speed steps, if so that would mean that 60 would be pretty fast. 60 steps on a true Legacy speed control is 30% of the maximum throttle, sounds like this one has 100 speed steps and 60 steps is 60% of the maximum throttle. Only someone like Jon Z. could truly answer that question.
If this was the case, then wouldn't it reach max speed at speed step 100? Mine will still increase speed past speed step 100 if I dare chance running it that fast.
All I know is it is the fastest locomotive I own.
Well, the other possibility is the gear ratio is radically different than other Legacy locomotives. It would be interesting to check the gear ratio of that locomotive and a similar one that doesn't have these issues. I know my Legacy LionMaster T1 Duplex has very docile operating characteristics and excellent low speed performance, so it's certainly possible this is a gear ratio issue. The T1 Duplex also has the classic Odyssey II flywheel sensor and Legacy DCDS that is used in many other 2008-2011 Legacy locomotives. All of my earlier Legacy stuff really has excellent low speed performance, so it's hard to explain this model.
This engine as well as the recent 0-8-0 were both delivered with what's called American Flyer Pullmor boards. These boards from what I understand will fit in a tighter space. With the 0-8-0 you end up with performance not even close to the previous Legacy 0-8-0's. Probably not even as good as the older Odyssey version. The acceleration rate is simply to fast. Even with momentum set at high. The switcher not being used in road service has about 7 usable steps out of 200. Going to have to live with my purchase of this one. It is usable as a switcher. The problem is with really only a few usable steps and momentum set at high. I often find myself stalling the engine on sidings because of the free spinning throttle wheel. I found myself running it more with a DCS remote just to have a visual of what speed step I'm opperatting in.
American Flyer Pullmor boards? These are can motored locomotives, I never heard the term Pullmor used for them. They are using a back-EMF board in some of the Flyer products, that's the board used here. The boards are the the same technology as the ERR Cruise Commander, and I can assure you that they should be better in performance than the older TMCC Odyssey I versions. However, I'm sure most will agree that the Odyssey II speed control is really the top dog here.
GunnrunnerJohn, remember the thread that covered this" issue"..... er.." design flaw?" You were part of it:
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...nmaster-speed?page=1
JohnZ's explanation:
"The setting for Flyer/Pullmor is correct. The setting configures the locomotive class, which mainly configures the Cab-2 to work with this loco's electronics package. If you set it for Legacy Steam, it will work the same way. The electronics uses BEMF motor feedback and won't lash up with locomotives with encoders, which is why the type is set as described. "
"The reason we went this route, is the space is limited inside of these locomotives and the Standard Legacy electronics would not have physically fit inside the product. We felt that product was desirable, and thus decided to deliver the product with the electronics we have available."
I remember the discussion, but I still don't really understand why the speed steps jump so much in this one with Legacy's 200 speed steps. I get very good low speed performance with the ERR Cruise Commander or Cruise Commander M with 100 speed steps. I actually do have one of the Legacy back-EMF modules, and paired with a Legacy R4LC, it seems to give pretty smooth throttle response on my test bench, so I don't know what happened with these models. Now that they're selling the early Legacy sound boards, I'm planning on assembling a "Legacy" configuration in a future upgrade when a suitable candidate comes along. I hope I'm not disappointed in the performance. 
Unless there's just a screw-up in the code for this product, I'm still wondering if it's a non-electronic issue like gear ratios of the drive train.
Heres another Quote from JohnZ regarding the Legacy speed-less 0-8-0's.
"The gear ratio could have been better, you are correct. I probably could have adjusted the servo loop for this loco to run slower as well. I am sorry that I did not do better on the software on this loco. My bad."
"There really was no room for the RCMC legacy boards, and previous runs of the 0-8-0 locos used a modular board arrangement so we could use the normal legacy encoder on those. Obsolete parts caused our dilemma, and we had to use a different board set with BEMF. "
jon
Heres the thorough discussion from that thread: https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...el-bto-0-8-0s?page=1
Heres video ( not mine) of the Lionmaster legacy class a. Its jumps to a start at the 2:00 mark and then you can see it jerk to a stop at 4:50:
Heres video posted by forum member RailRodenut demostrating the postwar style speed of these locos.
At the 2:37 mark It really gets going at about speed step 40. Beyond that, its off to the races!: ( this is what I meant by "lack of legacy speed control")
Heres a video ( also not mine)of the TMCC version for comparison:
Wow, if that's the best you can do with it, that really sucks! That's not Legacy or even ERR performance levels!
John. That's a Rd. Engine. With a switcher it's even worse. I added ERR Cruise lite to an older brass Weaver 0-6-0. I prefer to run that. Using the Legacy Lite remote. I never seem to stall that or my previous Oddesey or 1st version Legacy switcher when making switching moves. This latest version makes me look like a novice. I just purchased the DCS Legacy cable to run it with my DCS remote. At least I know where I stand as far as what speed step I'm in.
My switchers like the K-Line A-5 with the ERR CC-M work great at low speeds, it really sucks this is so poor in performance. I'd be bummed if I bought a new Legacy locomotive and got that kind of performance!
I'll be careful buying...
Didn't we cover all this in the last thread about this engine? Deja Vu all over again.
I think we all know this was less than expected.
Dave and John. I have that engine and can tell you first hand from working on them that room for an RCMC is not the issue. Plenty of room.
It's a mystery to me Marty, I can't imagine why they couldn't have done a better job on that one. I'm glad I don't have one, that would be disappointing to get that kind of performance from a new Legacy locomotive, I'm spoiled by the great performance of my Legacy locomotives.
I wonder if it was fitting the flywheel encoder in? Of course, other Lionmaster stuff has the Legacy encoder and two motors, and they managed to fit it in just fine. Hard to say what drove the decision...
John, I do not know the reason. Plenty of room for anything you want to throw in. Dave C had his switcher running on m,y layout and the speed was night and day over the old one.
Well, maybe it was a financial decision, who knows...
I received the 0-8-0 and sent it back after the bad reviews. Now, I will not pre-order Lionel again.
RickO posted:Heres video ( not mine) of the Lionmaster legacy class a. Its jumps to a start at the 2:00 mark and then you can see it jerk to a stop at 4:50:
Heres video posted by forum member RailRodenut demostrating the postwar style speed of these locos.
At the 2:37 mark It really gets going at about speed step 40. Beyond that, its off to the races!: ( this is what I meant by "lack of legacy speed control")
Heres a video ( also not mine)of the TMCC version for comparison:
Mine seems faster in person then that one in the 2nd video. What transformer are you using in the 1st video? I have a ZW-C with 180W bricks and can't seem to get smoke that good. That 3rd video is what sold me on getting one, for the sounds.
Now, how do we slow this guy down? The last thread that has been referenced was mostly just complaining about the drive in these BEMF locomotives, there were no solutions. I sent Lionel a video and they said it was normal operation, so I'm ready for a non-OEM fix.
It almost has to be a bit more than the back-EMF drive as that's the same basic board as the ERR Cruise Commander. That works great for low speed performance. My guess is that the drive gear ratio is also not optimum.
I'm guessing doing things like rewiring the motors or adding parts to the motor wiring like you do in conventional to slow locomotives down won't work with the BEMF boards?
Not that simple, I have no idea what series wiring would do, but I suspect it wouldn't be good. 
The reason they installed the Back EMF or (BEMC) board is because there was no room to install the RCMC board. The whistle smoke unit took up all the available space inside the shell. The BEMC board is physically smaller than the RCMC. I know this because I took one apart to see how they wired it for my wiring diagrams I had made.
If you want to take on the challenge of adding a encoder to get the 200 speed steps, you must some how purchase the RCMC board from the latest issue of Lionels Lionmaster Challenger, wire it in, and remove the smoking whistle feature.
Bruk posted:The reason they installed the Back EMF or (BEMC) board is because there was no room to install the RCMC board. The whistle smoke unit took up all the available space inside the shell. The BEMC board is physically smaller than the RCMC. I know this because I took one apart to see how they wired it for my wiring diagrams I had made.
If you want to take on the challenge of adding a encoder to get the 200 speed steps, you must some how purchase the RCMC board from the latest issue from a Lionel Lionmaster Challenger, wire it in, and remove the smoking whistle feature.
If that's the case, I would of dropped the smoking whistle in a heartbeat for true Legacy speed control. The whistle smoke is a nice feature but speed control is #1 reason to get Legacy locomotives. Lionel should always put speed control over other features.
The whistle smoke was going to be run from the feed through the front stack and then split in the reservoir. This was explained on page 7 in the locomotive manual. The manual was made be fore the engine was as it did not get built that way. A front fill is for the main stack and a separate smoke unit was installed in the back half of the locomotive for the whistle smoke. You need to fill the whistle smoke from the hole it comes out. On page 7, it tells you not to do that. Disregard this and fill whistle smoke from that hole. Again, the manual was built before the locomotive.
Bruk, I authored a service bulletin on this on the Lionel Tech site. When you get a chance, go on the tech site and I am sure you will agree with has been posted. Many people complain the whistle smoke stopped and overload the main stack and you know where that ends up. Did you turn the RCMC on it's side?
Marty Fitzhenry posted:Bruk, I authored a service bulletin on this on the Lionel Tech site. When you get a chance, go on the tech site and I am sure you will agree with has been posted. Many people complain the whistle smoke stopped and overload the main stack and you know where that ends up. Did you turn the RCMC on it's side?
Ill take a look at the tech site Marty. I can't remmeber if it was possible to turn it on its side. Id have to take one apart again.
Marty Fitzhenry posted:The whistle smoke was going to be run from the feed through the front stack and then split in the reservoir. This was explained on page 7 in the locomotive manual. The manual was made be fore the engine was as it did not get built that way. A front fill is for the main stack and a separate smoke unit was installed in the back half of the locomotive for the whistle smoke. You need to fill the whistle smoke from the hole it comes out. On page 7, it tells you not to do that. Disregard this and fill whistle smoke from that hole. Again, the manual was built before the locomotive.
Bruk, I authored a service bulletin on this on the Lionel Tech site. When you get a chance, go on the tech site and I am sure you will agree with has been posted. Many people complain the whistle smoke stopped and overload the main stack and you know where that ends up. Did you turn the RCMC on it's side?
If this is true, this is a big deal! Why was there not an insert in the manual? I would of never known this if I hadn't be watching this thread. How is Lionel going to let all the buyers of this locomotive know? Does this mean Lionel will just do a bunch of warranty work? And that hole is so small, how are you suppose to fill it without a needle?
