Where are they hiding them?  The only one I've found is still asking for BETA testing.  I guess because it still is BETA testing.

Well this  answers that question.

Menard's confirmed.  Still a BETA test model.

Bob,

When placing the order it adds the Penske Truck but doesn't subtract the fee for it when I'm checking out.

Please let them know.

Link to engine

https://www.menards.com/main/g...n=12-07_12-24O2-2021

Bet they are sold out within hours.

@samparfitt posted:

Bet they are sold out within hours.

or minutes.... I can no longer add it to the cart.

@MartyE posted:

Menard's confirmed.  Still a BETA test model.

Yep. Hard pass for me.

@johnstrains posted:

Yep. Hard pass for me.

I don't get the rush to get one.  Is it because it's cheap, limited, or something else?  Is it just the 'gotta have it crowd" that's jumping on these?  Eventually they'll put out a non-beta version with hopefully all the kinks worked out and suggestions taking into account and they'll be plenty on the market.

She gone now!

@samparfitt posted:

Bet they are sold out within hours.

They are now!

@MartyE posted:

I don't get the rush to get one.  Is it because it's cheap, limited, or something else?  Is it just the 'gotta have it crowd" that's jumping on these?  Eventually they'll put out a non-beta version with hopefully all the kinks worked out and suggestions taking into account and they'll be plenty on the market.

It's history in the making. In 500 years, Menards could be the biggest model train mfr in the universe and these beta's will be priceless heirlooms. (Joking)

Sold out !

SOLD OUT, CRAP.

I posted this info in another thread, but is worth reporting here. You might recall we eventually agreed these models were FP7 units, not F7 models. Well, they are actually FP9 units, evident by the position of the first porthole on the body. Even more intriguing, given that only Canadian railroads ordered the FP9s from EMD. (Some FP7s on American railroads were converted to FP9s, but very uncommonly.)

Hopefully the next batch uses FP9 in its description, not F7.

FP 7 F7 or FP 9 these are toy trains, my grandkids don’t care!!   😆  it looks the same to us!

No mention of flywheels unless they’ve accomplished this via electronics. Without some kind of coasting feature , highly unlikely I would purchase the final production item.

Steve

@Jim R. posted:

I posted this info in another thread, but is worth reporting here. You might recall we eventually agreed these models were FP7 units, not F7 models. Well, they are actually FP9 units, evident by the position of the first porthole on the body. Even more intriguing, given that only Canadian railroads ordered the FP9s from EMD. (Some FP7s on American railroads were converted to FP9s, but very uncommonly.)

Hopefully the next batch uses FP9 in its description, not F7.

While most were built by GMD in London, Ontario for Canadian roads, don't forget the NdeM FP9s built in LaGrange along with a few units for Saudi Arabia.  The original NdeM passenger diesel scheme is quite elegant. 

Based on my experience with the beta model, I won't be purchasing more.  However, the one I have is a prime candidate for a complete internal and external make over. 

I checked as soon as I saw the email, which was an even 2 hours after the email was sent. Was already sold out.  The price was slightly higher than the first batch, but 200 units in 2 hrs is amazing.

Same here. Read email at lunchtime, checked after I got home, saw 2 hr old email for Me arts, checked ad, and we’re sold out. Glad for Menards, even happier I wasn’t in the market for them. Hope they make lots more for those who are!

Bummed I missed these while I was working. I’m excited to see what the 2.0 model has in store. When they arrive, please post a video here!  

Boy, they went fast, not that I wanted a SanteFe, but hard to believe there are that many folks looking for O gauge SanteFe locos.  I'd like to find a Lionel  B unit dummy of an ALCO in UP yellow and red to add to a modern era 6-18119 set.

Wake me when they hit "gamma" and have corrected the more severe operating issues noted.    Hopefully soon and at a similar price.  Nice to see the excitement, and I'm confident they will get a final version eventually that is satisfactory to many, but right now it's potential not reality for the marketplace.

I'm sure Menard's will have a potpourri of road names and a B unit when regular production begins.

Was wondering if anyone has done an analysis of the control system used in these new Menard's engines. If I was lucky enough to obtain one, it would have been my first instinct and would have been added to eight loco control systems I have previously analyzed.

I looked right after getting an e-mail and it was sold out too.  Had already made plans for bringing my LTI TMCC Santa Fe F-3 ABA units out of mothballs this holiday, so I am good! 

I was lucky enough to get one this time around (I had the opportunity, but passed on the first beta). It shipped same day and is scheduled to arrive on Wednesday. I, too, am curious to see what changes were made: flywheel and better horn/bell are at the top of my list based on what I've seen on YT.

Ultimately, though, I bought it for our kids, as we could use a good LionChief-type puller under the Christmas tree, and for that price, it was the right price for the right kind of engine at the right time. I'm glad to see Menards making a go of this--here's hoping it leads to some steamers in some fashion.

I get mine Monday (Tentatively) and will try to get a video up same day. What features/upgrades are you most interested in seeing?

@TheRambles posted:

I get mine Monday (Tentatively) and will try to get a video up same day. What features/upgrades are you most interested in seeing?

Metal worm and worm wheel gears!

Would like to better understand the wireless control system used in the new loco,

Well, if dying to spend 150 on a SanteFe, there is a Lionel #2423 set for 150 on Mercari.  They are rough looking, but perhaps consider them weathered.

@TheRambles posted:

I get mine Monday (Tentatively) and will try to get a video up same day. What features/upgrades are you most interested in seeing?

Conventional (not remote!) control!!!

Thank you!

Or at least conventional capability.

I still don’t get the “have to have it” but as long as those who got one are happy that’s the only opinion that counts. I look forward to seeing what they took from the suggestions from the first group.

I guess I had a few of the “gotta have it” moments early on but not so much anymore.

Looking forward to what Menards makes next.

@MartyE posted:

I still don’t get the “have to have it” but as long as those who got one are happy that’s the only opinion that counts. I look forward to seeing what they took from the suggestions from the first group.

I guess I had a few of the “gotta have it” moments early on but not so much anymore.

Looking forward to what Menards makes next.

I jumped on the first batch when they came out over the summer Marty. Don't know if I'd call it a "gotta have it" or more of a curiosity since we Menards fans have been waiting and wondering about locos patiently.

I like my 1.0 model, warts and all.  It may get a ERR upgrade on day.

I'll be interested to see what changes they were able to make in a short time.

@TheRambles posted:

I get mine Monday (Tentatively) and will try to get a video up same day. What features/upgrades are you most interested in seeing?

What improvements were made in the speed control. The hard stops/ starts of the 1.0 model are probably my biggest issue. Any improvements in the sounds would be good too.

Would like to see what it looks like under the hood like when one looks to buy a car.

Cabinet Bob,

Could you please tell us, the changes that were made on this new diesel. Please take care and have a wonderful and safe Sunday.

Merry Christmas,

Jim Sutter

Since this is a new entry and is a wireless controlled loco, I am curious what system of the three basic types Menard's chose to use.

@BOB WALKER posted:

Since this is a new entry and is a wireless controlled loco, I am curious what system of the three basic types Menard's chose to use.

If you read the volumes of info from the first release, you’d know Menards is using a simple remote control system, not some proprietary system from others.

Jim R.,

Boy am I glad you came on. The three most knowledgeable people when it comes to Menard's train products are you, Cabinet Bob and Mark the Menard's man. Jim R. can you provide us with any information regarding the changes that have been made to Menard's New Santa Fe diesel. Thank you and Merry Christmas Jim Sutter

I wish I could for this second version. I didn’t get one. I’m curious about what changes Menards has made so far.

Thanks Jim. I appreciate it. We will just have to wait till these new diesels start showing up at the homes of the people that ordered them. Once they run them, they will let us know the pluses and minuses. Hope you have a wonderful and safe evening.

Left to right. Alpha 1.0  Bata 1.0.  Bata 2.0

@cabinet Bob posted:

Left to right. Alpha 1.0  Bata 1.0.  Bata 2.0

The guys grew up quite a bit between Alpha and Beta 1.0. They can barely see out the window!  LOL!  Any comment as to what got addressed from Beta 1.0 to Beta 2.0, Bob?

@cabinet Bob posted:

Left to right. Alpha 1.0  Bata 1.0.  Bata 2.0

Looking good Bob! 

Other than the stripe color, they all look the same to me. Would also like to see a list of specific changes.

When the reviews  come in, you will see Menards  listened  to all your concerns. I'm  not giving one, the reviews  will tell it all.....

How close to scale is that unit? I'm thinking project base.

@AGHRMatt posted:

How close to scale is that unit? I'm thinking project base.

It's pretty much to scale.  Of course it doesn't have the detail level of the higher priced units.  However, it's good for it's price point.

Rusty

I am opening the loco now. Check this posts for all my updates. Respond with questions.

VIDEO 1 - Box and Opening

VIDEO 2 - Taking out of Package and First Look

this clip shows the gears are not metal.

VIDEO 3 - No Conventional

VIDEO 4 - Speed Control

Images of Inside. Heading to dinner. Let me know if you have any other questions. I will try to get to them later. I really dig this model.

My question about Menard's choice of wireless system referred to the frequency of the RF carrier. The choices are UHF, WiFi or Bluetooth.

@TheRambles posted:

I am opening the loco now. Check this posts for all my updates. Respond with questions.

VIDEO 2 - Taking out of Package and First Look

On my end, video two is completely black when playing it (even in a new tab).  Would you please re-upload it?

Close to scale, as long as (again) it is measured as an FP9 (which it is) and not an F7 (which it’s not).

@Micro posted:

On my end, video two is completely black when playing it (even in a new tab).  Would you please re-upload it?

Thanks for letting me know. It’s fixed now.

This was plastic on Beta 1?*

*answer: turns out it was brass

@BOB WALKER posted:

My question about Menard's choice of wireless system referred to the frequency of the RF carrier. The choices are UHF, WiFi or Bluetooth.

I don’t know a lot about this stuff, But don’t these two silver components indicate that it is not Wi-Fi or Bluetooth?

I wonder how hard it would be to modify to add conventional operation as an aftermarket function.  Seems straightforward enough. For an engine without flywheels it starts and stops easily.

The two metal cans are most likely crystals which suggest a carrier around 900MHZ. The stripes on the left hand edge of the pictured PC board is the modem antenna. I have tested various control systems using all three RF carrier approaches and the carrier choice does not materially  affect the system overall performance. Menard's choice may have been based on what modem chips they could obtain as there has been a widespread modem chip shortage affecting everyone.

Any updates running Beta 2.0?

I’m preparing a video as we speak. Standby and should be up in a few hours.

As promised, here's a video review. The video isn't polished, but it should give some additional thoughts and impressions that I have. In the video, I promise an Augmented Reality object to download for anyone who wants to put a virtual model of the engine on their screen (for zooming and inspection) or on their train table to see how it looks in the real world--I'm working on it, but it will have to wait until tomorrow.

A summary of my thoughts:

-Great pulling power. Acceleration/Deceleration appear to have gotten some attention as it's not too jerky.
-Engine wants to go really fast even at a very modest turn of the dial.
-Horn and bell are just plain awful. This should be an easy fix and I'm surprised nothing's changed in Beta 2.
-If there were changes to anything other than the acceleration/deceleration, I'm overlooking something. But I can't find any.
-For $160, it's hard to complain too much.

Beta 3/Production Candidate suggestions:
Get a better horn and bell. Hands down.
Recalibrate speed-to-dial-turns. Engine moves really fast even at a relatively slight dial turn.
Label the volume switch on the bottom of the engine
Re-orient the remote power switch so that a flip UP is on, and a flip DOWN is off.

If those top two things happened, this engine would be absolutely fantastic at this price point.

@Rafi posted:

Beta 3/Production Candidate suggestions:

Get a better horn and bell. Hands down.
Recalibrate speed-to-dial-turns. Engine moves really fast even at a relatively slight dial turn.

If those two things happened, this engine would be absolutely fantastic at this price point.

Thanks for the video!

i would add--
1. Add conventional (AC transformer) control.  Without that, I would have to be extremely hard to convince to buy it.

In fact, as much as I love and adore the concept of a Menards engine (especially if it is marketed as an FP7 unit when you folks say that no one has previously made an O-scale FP7), I would be almost 100% sure that I would not buy this or ANY engine that doesn't have conventional, even at a ridiculously cheap price.

@Rafi posted:

As promised, here's a video review. The video isn't polished, but it should give some additional thoughts and impressions that I have. In the video, I promise an Augmented Reality object to download for anyone who wants to put a virtual model of the engine on their screen (for zooming and inspection) or on their train table to see how it looks in the real world--I'm working on it, but it will have to wait until tomorrow

Nice video, I thought the horns came unattached. Guess mine was beat up in shipping.

Looks like they retained the red led number boards also. Would have preferred white led's.

@Micro posted:

(especially if it is marketed as an FP7 unit when you folks say that no one has previously made an O-scale FP7),

Third Rail made FP7's.

Rusty

It would be nice if someone started a new thread for reviews of the BETA 2.

@Rusty Traque posted:

Third Rail made FP7's.

Rusty

No one has made a three-rail FP9, which is what this unit is. But as I say that, I’m still wondering: Did Menards create this mold, or did someone else make it and never use it? I wish in this one instance Menards would be more transparent about this model’s production background.

@Jim R. posted:

No one has made a three-rail FP9, which is what this unit is. But as I say that, I’m still wondering: Did Menards create this mold, or did someone else make it and never use it? I wish in this one instance Menards would be more transparent about this model’s production background.

At least they stopped calling it an F3...

My response was directed at this statement: "(especially if it is marketed as an FP7 unit when you folks say that no one has previously made an O-scale FP7),"

However, that's neither here nor there.  While it's true the model represents an FP9, it's missing the 5 horizontal vents on the side panels (while lacking any dynamic brake fan) is a spotting feature of factory-fresh FP9's.  In fact it's missing any vents on the side panels, yet it has the odd detail of a drip strip over the nose door, mostly applied to CN and ON F-units:

Personally, I would reason this is someone else's aborted project and Menards is under no obligation to reveal the source if it is.

Rusty

Well Guys,

Having read all of the posts, it seems to me as if many folks are dying to fall in love with this engine due to the price, but just can't.     And,  . . . for good reasons.

A new diesel engine with a really lousy horn and bell is a dog, no matter how cheap it is.

A new diesel engine with a remote-only control, that wants to accelerate to high speeds when the throttle is modestly turned up is a dog, no matter how cheap it is.

A new diesel engine with plastic gears is, . . . well not a dog, but not really what most folks want.

Some folks have mentioned that at a price of only $160, who can complain.    Well, are you really buying a new engine so you can bite your tongue, ignore its shortfalls, and not complain? 

Yes, $160 is an attractive price, but have you looked at the December sales for engines, such as on the Trainworld site?   For just $40 or so more, you can get a much higher quality engine, with no problems.  Yes, the great majority of them are conventional, but since most people who like command control trains already have an integrated system and engines for that, what good is it to add yet another remote control, that is an odd-ball on the table and for only one engine, which definitely has issues?

My impression is that most of the folks buying these Beta engines are caught up in the "thrill of the hunt"!   

"There are only 200 of these, and I gotta get one ,and then play with it and test it and pull it apart and write about it!"

Yet, after this is all done, I think most buyers will end up having spent $160 plus for this thrill, and be left with a deficient engine sitting on the shelf with its plastic controller, and long forgotten.

At present, this engine is, I believe, plain and simple, a cheap little starter engine for kids who just want to turn a dial and watch it go round-round-round.  Nothing inherently wrong with that, . . but it is what it is.   (I am somewhat amazed at the excitement that it has created among so many adult O gaugers.)    But, unless Menard's goes forth and makes significant changes which will raise the price by $50 or so, it will probably never be more than that.

Nonetheless, one thing I really applaud Menards for, is that they listened to all of the feedback of the test customers, and promptly made a round of changes to try to fix some of them.

When was the last time that Lionel did that?

Mannyrock

@vallieone posted:

Looks like they retained the red led number boards also. Would have preferred white led's.

Here is the LED for the number boards

@Mannyrock posted:

Well Guys,

Having read all of the posts, it seems to me as if many folks are dying to fall in love with this engine due to the price, but just can't.     And,  . . . for good reasons.

A new diesel engine with a really lousy horn and bell is a dog, no matter how cheap it is.

A new diesel engine with a remote-only control, that wants to accelerate to high speeds when the throttle is modestly turned up is a dog, no matter how cheap it is.

A new diesel engine with plastic gears is, . . . well not a dog, but not really what most folks want.

Some folks have mentioned that at a price of only $160, who can complain.    Well, are you really buying a new engine so you can bite your tongue, ignore its shortfalls, and not complain?

Yes, $160 is an attractive price, but have you looked at the December sales for engines, such as on the Trainworld site?   For just $40 or so more, you can get a much higher quality engine, with no problems.  Yes, the great majority of them are conventional, but since most people who like command control trains already have an integrated system and engines for that, what good is it to add yet another remote control, that is an odd-ball on the table and for only one engine, which definitely has issues?

My impression is that most of the folks buying these Beta engines are caught up in the "thrill of the hunt"!   

"There are only 200 of these, and I gotta get one ,and then play with it and test it and pull it apart and write about it!"

Yet, after this is all done, I think most buyers will end up having spent $160 plus for this thrill, and be left with a deficient engine sitting on the shelf with its plastic controller, and long forgotten.

At present, this engine is, I believe, plain and simple, a cheap little starter engine for kids who just want to turn a dial and watch it go round-round-round.  Nothing inherently wrong with that, . . but it is what it is.   (I am somewhat amazed at the excitement that it has created among so many adult O gaugers.)    But, unless Menard's goes forth and makes significant changes which will raise the price by $50 or so, it will probably never be more than that.

Nonetheless, one thing I really applaud Menards for, is that they listened to all of the feedback of the test customers, and promptly made a round of changes to try to fix some of them.

When was the last time that Lionel did that?

Mannyrock

I think your points are well taken.  However, I think the significance of this locomotive is the potential to appeal to a broader segment of potential hobbyists with a store that has a larger retail footprint that even the largest O gauge dealers.  So that ability to market and introduce the hobby to a bigger audience is the proverbial big deal of Menards becoming a full line player in O gauge.  But again why someone who owns any high end O gauge would buy this locomotive, other than as a starter set for someone new in the hobby, or perhaps a child, is beyond me.  And that is not a knock on the product.

It seems what it is, an attempt to produce a 'toy train' engine at a reasonable price. Lionel once produced the scout set engines, they weren't inherently any better than this *shrug*.  It is like Menard's cars, they are designed to be affordable trains to 'play with', they aren't designed to compete with scale equipment. The Menards engine is meant to invoke the old Lionel F3's, whether it is an f3 or f7 or fp9 doesn't matter, some of the comments on here were kind of funny in that regards (I understand people were trying to figure out what Menards used as a base, but still, some were saying how it didn't have this, that, this is a representation, not a scale model

My guess is looking at the 3 rail market there really isn't that much to the 'low end'. Railking is way more expensive than this, lionchief is great but again, is at a higher price point, I don't even know if Atlas has their low end line,williams is expensive for the most part, unless on closeout. Looks to me like a true toy train, designed to give enjoyment, fits kind of in with the three rail traditional trains.  The only thing I question is lack of conventional control, but then again it isn't hard to use this with command, no new wiring, turn transformer to like 16 v and you are ready to go.

@bigkid posted:

It seems what it is, an attempt to produce a 'toy train' engine at a reasonable price. Lionel once produced the scout set engines, they weren't inherently any better than this *shrug*.  It is like Menard's cars, they are designed to be affordable trains to 'play with', they aren't designed to compete with scale equipment. The Menards engine is meant to invoke the old Lionel F3's, whether it is an f3 or f7 or fp9 doesn't matter, some of the comments on here were kind of funny in that regards (I understand people were trying to figure out what Menards used as a base, but still, some were saying how it didn't have this, that, this is a representation, not a scale model

My guess is looking at the 3 rail market there really isn't that much to the 'low end'. Railking is way more expensive than this, lionchief is great but again, is at a higher price point, I don't even know if Atlas has their low end line,williams is expensive for the most part, unless on closeout. Looks to me like a true toy train, designed to give enjoyment, fits kind of in with the three rail traditional trains.  The only thing I question is lack of conventional control, but then again it isn't hard to use this with command, no new wiring, turn transformer to like 16 v and you are ready to go.

^^THIS^^

It's a $160 O gauge, 3-rail toy train engine. And as far as that goes, it's a great deal. Would I like it more if it has better speed control and better sounds? Darn straight. Do I hope that this beta will help to identify that as an area focus for the final product? Absolutely.  But my kids won’t care.  I got it for my kids for Christmas morning and have zero regrets.

Rafi

@bigkid posted:

It seems what it is, an attempt to produce a 'toy train' engine at a reasonable price. Lionel once produced the scout set engines, they weren't inherently any better than this *shrug*.  It is like Menard's cars, they are designed to be affordable trains to 'play with', they aren't designed to compete with scale equipment. The Menards engine is meant to invoke the old Lionel F3's, whether it is an f3 or f7 or fp9 doesn't matter, some of the comments on here were kind of funny in that regards (I understand people were trying to figure out what Menards used as a base, but still, some were saying how it didn't have this, that, this is a representation, not a scale model

My guess is looking at the 3 rail market there really isn't that much to the 'low end'. Railking is way more expensive than this, lionchief is great but again, is at a higher price point, I don't even know if Atlas has their low end line,williams is expensive for the most part, unless on closeout. Looks to me like a true toy train, designed to give enjoyment, fits kind of in with the three rail traditional trains.  The only thing I question is lack of conventional control, but then again it isn't hard to use this with command, no new wiring, turn transformer to like 16 v and you are ready to go.

Considering the prices on the modern loco's, this is a steal even if the price went to $200.00.

I was just in my LHS and the sticker shock is just wearing off......

One key point demonstrated by the Menard's  new loco is that the future of loco control will be dominated by wireless systems.

... looks like something you would buy at "Toys R Us"...😄... but that's just me, I suppose. 🙂

Mark in Oregon

In the FWIW category, just today I put some miles on a '70s vintage Lionel Alco that has plastic gears.  The engine has so much use that its pilot is broken and the shell is worn.  It runs smooth and steady still at 50 years of age or so and pulls a reasonable length train as easily as if there were no cars behind it.

Will this engine perform as well in 50 years?  Who knows?  I just know that my childhood Alco--similarly worn but whose pilot is not broken--runs better and more reliably than all of my digital era, TMCC or Legacy engines.

@Strummer posted:

... looks like something you would buy at "Toys R Us"...😄... but that's just me, I suppose. 🙂

Mark in Oregon

Well, right on the box they say these are toy trains.....including the 2000 dollar vision line last I looked.

@bigkid posted:

Well, right on the box they say these are toy trains.....including the 2000 dollar vision line last I looked.

Hmm... right after I read this I went to the Lionel "Vision Line" site: they are referred to there as..." model trains". Couldn't find any reference to "toys"... Ah well, "a rose by any other name", right?  🙂

Mark in Oregon 🎄

What surprises me most about some of the comments is the hostility some folks exhibit to any company whom they deem as being unworthy to manufacturer and sell trains in their view.

I simply just don't get it.   Personally, I give all those who manufacture anything for the toy train hobby a great deal of credit.   They could have just as easily elected to manufacture a widget which would be much more profitable with a lot less headache.

If an item by a manufacturer doesn't meet your "specifications" then obviously you won't want to buy it.  But keep in mind that what it lacks in your viewpoint may just be what the doctor ordered by others.  For example simply good looking and base functionality.

To those that gripe the loudest and the most, I'm going to ask this simple question.

What have you designed, developed, put into production and sold that was a ten by all of your customers?   

If you haven't, then by what right do you have to even begin to complain?

If you have never engaged in the development of a product, what do you really know about what it takes to bring a product to market?   In most cases the answer is NOTHING.

With that being the case, then how can you judge anyone for their effort, especially if manufacturing a new product for the first time?

These are beta units - which means they are still working out the bugs.   In industry terms like "prototype" or "mule" are often used.  The auto industry, which is now nearly 120yrs old, still has prototypes that they build to work out the bugs, prior going into full production!

Having an elitist attitude because they aren't a mainstream train manufacturer is very telling of your prejudice.

Let us all simply employ the attitude of encouraging new entities into the toy train business by giving them honest feedback without being hostile and insulting.

Is it really a great deal at $160 or even $200 as a starter engine???

@Mannyrock posted:

Is it really a great deal at $160 or even $200 as a starter engine???

WILLIAMS #23106 CANADIAN NATIONAL #1 - SCALE 44 TON SWITCHER 5.0 star rating $129.99

WILLIAMS #WIL1235 NEW YORK CENTRAL 4-6-0 STEAM ENGINE #1235 WITH WHISTLE, BELL & SMOKE 5.0 star rating $159.99

Need I continue??

Mannyrock

I think it’s important to note that those are special sale prices and not the everyday MSRP. We don’t know what Menards will sell the engine for at MSRP, but at $160, that is not a sale price. The MSRP of the engines that you quoted are considerably more $200 and that makes sense, given that they have a few more features, albeit no remote control (which, like it or not, is the future).  

I think it is safe to say that Menards is not going after folks like you and me. They aren’t going after people who keep an eye on the trainworld sales. They are going after people in age my demographic who have young kids at home, who are shopping at the store, or even on their website, and want a present to pick up to bring home for the kids. The MSPR, if it ends up being in the $160 range, is a steal in that regard and is a great thing for our hobby.
Rafi

Very good points Rafi!

@Mannyrock posted:

Is it really a great deal at $160 or even $200 as a starter engine???

WILLIAMS #23106 CANADIAN NATIONAL #1 - SCALE 44 TON SWITCHER 5.0 star rating $129.99

WILLIAMS #WIL1235 NEW YORK CENTRAL 4-6-0 STEAM ENGINE #1235 WITH WHISTLE, BELL & SMOKE 5.0 star rating $159.99

Need I continue??

Mannyrock

What will it cost to get them to run with a remote on constant voltage?

I welcome more choices in the hobby!! And I'm enjoying watching Menards learn along the way! Listening to customer feedback, good for them!!

Menards needs to let a bunch of 10 to 12 year-old's do the beta testing.  I bet there would be rave reviews. 

Tom

Received it today and ran it today.  The only issue I had at first was the battery plate on the remote.  It was screwed on with a power driver and off center.  The hole around the screw head was cracked and it took a while to get it off but after that, no issues.

I agree that it starts up a little fast but not too bad once I connected 4 Lionel Southern Crescent cars.  The top speed is adequate without running off the track like some post war engines.  Control was a little fidgety and could use finer control steps.

Detailing was good and sounds and bell are okay, the horn is a little weak.  However, comparing to a Lionel 2343 Santa Fe, it was actually a lot better horn, and no leaking battery needed.

It could benefit from getting rid of the chrome trucks and undercarriage and painting them silver.  2343 has no bell, no sounds, and no available remote control unless running on a Lionel remote system.

Overall, really nice for what I believe is the intended customer.

@Allegheny posted:

1. Personally, I give all those who manufacture anything for the toy train hobby a great deal of credit...

2. To those that gripe the loudest and the most, I'm going to ask this simple question.

What have you designed, developed, put into production and sold that was a ten by all of your customers?   

If you haven't, then by what right do you have to even begin to complain?

If you have never engaged in the development of a product, what do you really know about what it takes to bring a product to market?   In most cases the answer is NOTHING.

3. Having an elitist attitude because they aren't a mainstream train manufacturer is very telling of your prejudice.

4. Let us all simply employ the attitude of encouraging new entities into the toy train business by giving them honest feedback without being hostile and insulting.

1. I agree. 🙂

2.  Does that mean if I buy something that is not up to spec (car, appliance,etc) I cannot comment because I haven't manufactured those things myself? Let's face it, one of the allures of these Forums is to give us "little people" a voice, for both good and bad reviews and opinions in general. 👍

3. "Prejudice"? That's a rather harsh word to use here; after all, we are talking "toy" trains, are we not? 🤔

4. I will agree with that; just add that "he who lives in glass houses..." 🙂

Mark in Oregon 🎄

PS: I also agree with your opinion of the  C&O 2-6-6-6. 😁

The only item now missing in Menard's portfolio to create a complete starter set  (to compete with Lionel's offerings in the $280 - $370 range) is the transformer. Could that be coming next?

@Strummer posted:

Hmm... right after I read this I went to the Lionel "Vision Line" site: they are referred to there as..." model trains". Couldn't find any reference to "toys"... Ah well, "a rose by any other name", right?  🙂

Mark in Oregon 🎄

We all know they are promoting 2k engines at kids, but if you look at the age warning level they say it is a toy to be used for kids above 14 (I haven't looked in a long time, given I haven't bought one in a long time, so maybe they have changed that).

@H1000 posted:

What will it cost to get them to run with a remote on constant voltage?

That is a good point, even a basic DC commander or PS upgrade would cost a lot, same with DCC, especially these days, even for just basic control functions, let alone sound. Prob talking 150 bucks to be conservative.

Unfortunately, I missed out on this one, but it seems that it still doesn't have conventional operation which is a huge bummer.

When I'm asking for conventional operation, I'm asking for the following:

• Speed varies with AC voltage
• Power break cycles direction F-N-R-N
• DC offsets activate whistle/horn and bell

Optionally:

• Patterned DC offsets activate crew talk

Simply bypassing the electronics and going through a rectifier for forward only operation misses the mark of what is expected from a manufacturers production run.

I think some of the griping with the Menards product is ironically that almost everyone would wish that O gauge 3 rail trains were a lot more affordable than they are, I don't know anyone who says current prices are a steal (and yes, you could make an argument that based on value of a dollar and so forth, a vision line 2000 dollar engine is  bargain compared to the original 700e at 75 bucks in late 30's and what is on a vision line engine, but that is kind of an extreme case, the 700e was way expensive for that time, too).  Those commenting on whether it is an f3 or FP7 , if it is scale sized and the like I think are coming at it from that angle, with the idea it would be really great if Menards could produce something that is at least somewhat scale fidelity and looks good and is cheap (and very understandable, heck I would love that as an operator).

As far as quality goes, again, people obviously want something that runs well and doesn't fall apart the first time someone uses it. The fact that Menards is doing these as limited run beta at a low price says they aren't ignoring quality or issues with it. Working in software development, there are jokes around what alpha and beta1 and beta2 and beta 3 and 1.0 versions mean, and it goes from "this stinks on ice, what the heck were they thinking" to "it stinks less, but still smells", "not a skunk, but maybe a polecat", 1.0 is really "extended Beta 2, since they ignored the results of Beta 3" and 2.0 is "sort of production ready".  I think people have to keep this in mind when looking at the Menards unit, these are not a finished product (and I have no way of knowing if they plan on doing further betas, or if next step is prod, stay tuned).  It sounds like they are listening, and hopefully for those who didn't buy it figuring that a beta release, like Lionel prototypes, will be valuable collectors items, and actually run the unit, they give Menards feedback on it. The other thing is quality these days is relative, we see problems with 2000 dollar engines because quality control is not a priority in this market. With regular engines it is to keep build cost low to maintain high margins. With Menards, which to be honest I doubt is making a lot if any money out of its train stuff, it is to keep the build cost low so they can offer it at relatively cheap prices.

The one glaring thing is why they don't allow conventional control, I am sure that building a control chip that allows sounding the horn via the whistle controller and F/N/R via the direction button is not exactly expensive. Why should they do that if they have a controller? Easy, if the controller gets broken, and this is really for kids, the conventional is a backup, especially if controllers are not easy to replace or (heaven help us), can be fixed.

The rapid startup speed probably can be fixed. I will add that it wouldn't be unique, Williams engines tend to be fly off the table runners, too, unless you put the motors in series *shrug*.

"When I'm asking for conventional operation, I'm asking for the following:"

I think this will greatly increase the cost of the loco, and thus is probably a non-starter for that reason.  Just guessing, but I think if it were feasible it would have already been done.  Examples are the difference in cost between LionChief (no conventional; command only) and LionChief + (command plus conventional), which were the better part of $100.  LionChief + 2.0 even more, due to adding TMCC into the mix.

@Landsteiner posted:

"When I'm asking for conventional operation, I'm asking for the following:"

I think this will greatly increase the cost of the loco, and thus is probably a non-starter for that reason.  Just guessing, but I think if it were feasible it would have already been done.  Examples are the difference in cost between LionChief (no conventional; command only) and LionChief + (command plus conventional), which were the better part of $100.  LionChief + 2.0 even more, due to adding TMCC into the mix.

I doubt seriously that the difference between lionchief and lionchief+ n terms of cost was the conventional operation, we aren't talking rocket science here, to do the FNR on voltage loss and to blow the horn when there is a dc signal superimposed on the AC is not exactly a big deal processor to create, FNR is simply reversing polarity or going open (N), the horn is basically just a switch that if it detects dc on the AC, it sends power to the horn unit. The err upgrades to support TMCC were 100 dollars at the time Lionchief + came out, nd that is retail (I realize that was without sound, but still).

Lionchief + came out later and prices were already rising, so you can't do that comparison anyway. My guess? That conventional will be there when the production unit comes out. I suspect they left it out of the beta because they wanted the controller used so they would get feedback on that, it would make sense to do it, since that is the 'new technology', not conventional control.

" That conventional will be there when the production unit comes out. "

We'll see, but I doubt it very much in the first iteration.  Completely different hardware than whatever off the shelf radio control system they are currently using for command.  Current LionChief locos about $200 street price.  LionChief + 2.0 in general considerably more expensive, which is not surprising.

I agree if Menard's wants to reach the largest possible market, should have conventional as well, since most conventional users do not want command and remote, even though these locos (Lionchief and MenardChief) will work fine on a conventional layout.  Just have to use the remote to operate rather than the transformer.  Conventional folks don't want to do that is my impression.

        Sadly,  I agree that these may end up being a knee jerk purchase by fathers running to Menard's, "just to get a trainset" for Christmas.  If the total set runs about $275 or so, it may be set up on the floor on Christmas morning, or the day after, and be one of those "toys" that the kids play with for about the first 3 weeks after Christmas.   By then, the kids will be bored with it, and Mom will have had enough, and tell them to take it apart and put it back in the box.   After that, it may be thrown together again six months later on the kids' bedroom floor, or not.   Maybe it will be put together again for the next Christmas, or not.

       As with most toys that kids get for Christmas nowadays, though, probably most of these trainsets will just be considered junk after 2 or 3 years and thrown out.    Or, sometime during that time period, the remote will have been dropped and cracked a few times, so it won't work, and the whole thing will be trashed even earlier.

    With parents buying their 10 year-olds $1,000 phones these days, $275 or so may be considered a cheap, disposable gift, rather than the start to a long-term hobby.

Mannyrock

But, mannyrock:  how many of us started out with exactly that same or nearly that same scenario?