MTH Rechargeable battery

I use these and they work great: http://www.amazon.com/gp/produ...ui_search_detailpage

Thanks !

I use the current MTH Green 8.4 volt battery.    

Have you looked into using a BCR???

Marty

Marty,

    When the batteries need replaced insert a BCR and never worry about replacing batteries again.  The new P3 engines have their own Super Cap, I put BCR in the P2's.

PCRR/Dave

You'll want a NiMH battery, not NiCd, and as was mentioned 8.4v, not 7.2.  While most of the name brand batteries out there now no longer even mark it as a selling point, you'll also want one that is 'Low self-discharge' (often marked as 'Pre-Charged').  These will hold a useful charge for more than a year on the shelf.  As always, I recommend the DuraCell brand, marked 'Pre-Charged Rechargeable" as my number 1 choice; I have sets of these in AA with hundreds of charges using quality slow chargers and 15-minute high current chargers. They are just good high quality batteries.  Rayovac is my second pick, if I'm in a store, need batteries, and they do not carry DuraCell.   As far as the name brands go, I've had nothing but problems with the brand being sold by the drumming bunny, and have avoided buying them whenever possible.  They don't tend to like being stored for long periods between charges, and often have trouble being charged again after storage. 

As for the various off-brand options just make sure it is the 'low self-discharge' type, NiMH, and you should be fine, within the realm of cheap batteries.  Also avoid any Li-ion type rechargeable batteries.  These are very good batteries, typically, but require careful charging.  The charge circuit, or lack there of, in MTH engines is not suitable for charging Li-ion batteries.  

From online sources:

Duracell(170mAh): $11.99

Rayovac(200mAh): $8.99

MTH Battery(120mAh): $12.00 +shipping, 

BCR:  About $30.00

JGL

Edit:  On the topic of a BCR, they are good devices, but if you are on a budget, it will take at least 25 years for the BCR to repay it's cost compared to using a NiMH battery.  

Maybe 25 years but a BCR is always ready to go no matter how long the engine sits. Yes first time on the tracks does take the one minute to charge. No big deal compared to keeping batteries.

I bought two of the green MTH 8.4 volt rechargeable batteries at the hobby shop (need about 6 more) but there's no instructions on initial charging - are they supposed to be charged before installing - if so, how many hours, or do you install them and charge while running trains?

Paul Kallus posted:

I bought two of the green MTH 8.4 volt rechargeable batteries at the hobby shop (need about 6 more) but there's no instructions on initial charging - are they supposed to be charged before installing - if so, how many hours, or do you install them and charge while running trains?

Even when I purchase a new MTH battery from my local hobby shop, I ALWAYS charge it overnight, i.e. at least 12 hours, using the MTH charger assembly.

It won't take 25 years if you blow a board because your battery isn't charged. Never underestimate stupidity.

Gerry

Ok already !  What is a BCR ?

Dan P,

    A BCR is actually a Super Cap that can replace your Battery in P1/P2 Engines, available at most Hobby stores or on line.  The 8.4 Battery replacement BCR looks like this one in the pictures below, I have yet to replace one, my oldest one is now over 15 years old.  You can contact J&W directly with the info on the BCR.

PCRR/Dave

It had been my impression that only original, ProtoSound(1), boards had a problem with damage from a bad battery, and that much of the time these scrambled boards can be repaired with a special chip.  As a note it is also my understanding that the cause of the board scrambling is power dropping out as the board is writing to its memory on start up, similar to pulling the plug on a computer during its boot up.  This is an actual problem with NiCd batteries, as they will report being fully charged to a measuring device, even when they are damaged to the point that they can only hold that voltage for fractions of a second under a load.  Aside from the memory effect that plagues NiCd, there is also the issue that NiCd batteries also are damaged simply by not being used, or from charging them too quickly.  Once damaged in this manner small crystals form between the layers of the pile and act as bridges to internally short the battery.  

Point of all this?  NiMH batteries don't have the problem.  They can be measured to know what percentage of charge they still hold.  In addition, the low self-discharge type,( the only sort sold in the last several years by any name brand),  will hold a useful, "full" charge for over a year.  NiMH do not have the crystallization problem, nor are they so finicky about proper charging.  Sure, it is possible to get a bad battery, just as it is possible to catch a bad Capacitor, but with NiMH you are unlikely to damage anything.  You'll know your battery needs replacing when shut-down sounds start cutting off in 8-12 years.  

Now, if you currently have a white, NiCd battery in your engine, by all means throw it in the trash... or actually a battery drop off somewhere as Cadmium is a fairly harmful substance to be tossing in land-fills.  If you have the green battery, you're not in much danger of harming anything.  

JGL

JGL,

   The other benefit of using the BCR is you never have to mess with replacing batteries ever again, longevity storage when using the BCR is no problem either.  As the Batteries need replacing, I replace them with BCR's, in all my P2 engines & Street Cars.  IMO every P1 should definitely have them, just to eliminate any problems.  I certainly do not replace all of them at one time, definitely cost prohibitive.  Also as Guns pointed out long ago, you can roll you own if you want to, saving a lots of money.

PCRR/Dave

There is nothing wrong with a BCR, I'm not knocking them.  You do it once and never have to worry about a battery again.  I'm just pointing out that it is not the ONLY solution.  If you don't mind replacing a battery every 8-12 years, there is nothing wrong with a NiMH battery either, and it will take 24-36 years to recoup the investment  of the cost of a BCR... Seeing as many folks do not keep these engines for that long, they will never see a return on the investment.  

JGL

JohnGaltLine posted:

.....it will take at least 25 years for the BCR to repay it's cost compared to using a NiMH battery.  

But, the true payback comes when you try to install a battery every few years in a Bipolar electric or in one of those diesels where circuit boards have to be shoved out of the way to get at the battery compartment.

With a BCR its once and done.  The average guy (me!) doesn't want to be rearranging electronics on a regular basis or playing with the couplings on that 3 unit electric loco. Tempting the fates once too often would make the price of a BCR seem minor.  

Jim

I know a bit about the BCR.    I will not say anything bad but just state I do not use them for my own reasons.     I have a list of engines and when the battery  was changed on my work bench computer.   I have a battery tester I made to check engines often.   It also checks the batteries in my DCS remotes and many other devices.   I have no problem buying batteries.  I do have a problem when I have to buy a new board.  

Whether  you put in a battery or a BCR, check the battery clip connections and make sure they clip onto your devivce firmly.  I always like to give the large clip a gentle squeeze with needle nose pliers.  Pay attention when you do this job.  I know a guy who was busy and did not pay attention and forgot to put the clip on his BCR.  I got a call wanting to know why his engine is not running.  He had a 5V board,  

I do a few repairs and any engine I work on gets done with a battery.  If a customer wants to change it out, it is on him.

Just finished replacing the white battery with a green one in my P2.0 steamer.  It was a relatively simple job since the battery was located in the Tender.  I do not have a battery charger.  I believe that I can charge it on the tracks.  Am I right and how long should I charge it?  Thanks in advance.

You can charge it on the track.  Smoke should be off for track charging.

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

You can charge it on the track.  Smoke should be off for track charging.

Thanks for the tip on the smoke.  How long should I leave it on 18 volts?

decoynh posted:

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

You can charge it on the track.  Smoke should be off for track charging.

Thanks for the tip on the smoke.  How long should I leave it on 18 volts?

Again, at least 12 hours.

JGL,

    If I wanted a return on my investment, I would never ever make purchases in this hobby.  However I do understand what you are talking about, and Marty uses the batteries.  BCR's are one of the few things MartyF and I disagree on.  He uses the Batteries, as an engineer I advocate usage of a BCR.  Neither is wrong,just different.

PCRR/Dave

Dave, I have a reason for this choice and do not want to slam any product.  I stay up on my batteries that need to be charged.  Trains on the wall and in cases also have the batteries fully charged.  I have several locomotives and stay on top of the battery condition.   I have 4 MTH battery charges available at all times to do duty.  I have my battery tester  that is in use constantly.  On one end are the connections needed for different applications plus connections for test leads.   It also has a light bulb to put a load on anything tested.  Inside I have an 8.4 V battery that I can use as a power source and I just take the red lead out and plug it into an LED circuit.  When I want to check the voltage in my battery, I just plug the leads into the back of the tester (power output end) and hit the front plugs.

Dave, when I see you in person I will give you my reasons.

Dave, 

By 'return on investment'  I do NOT mean anything about buying trains as an investment.  What I mean is, that you will not recoup the initial cost unless you will be owning the engine in question for that period of time.  

I have previously conceded and continue to do so, the point that it is of value not to ever have to replace a battery again.  While I fully expect that folks will be inside their engines countless times for routine maintenance over the quarter century that it would take to recoup the cost of a BCR, I can concede the fact that not spending 5-20 minutes to change a battery every 8-12 years is of value to folks.  

As a side note, for the initial charge of a non-low-self-discharge NiMH battery, or recharging  any NiMH battery that has been allowed to substantially run down, I would recommend using a current limiting charger.  I do not know exactly what the charging circuit involves in MTH engines, but these batteries, if dead can draw well over an amp from the charge circuit if it allows.  Then again, the charge circuit seems to be holding up to the hard draw of a BCR on power-up just fine, and the BCR will pull high current every time it is powered up, not just on occasion of long shelf storage, so you're probably ok.  

Any of the name brand batteries will not require a charge right out of the package as long as they are not any older than the date printed on their packaging... usually 12-18 months from the time of manufacture.  Once again, this applies to NiMH batteries marked "Pre-Charged" or "Low Self-Discharge".  These will hold a "full" charge for more than 12 months, and hold a useable charge for years... Also they do not damage them selves as NiCd batteries do, so even if an engine is in long term storage, a NiMH battery will usually come back to life.  

BCR's are great... but so are current generation NiMH batteries.  

JGL

So if I have an MTH Hudson #RK1113LP, that I believe is twenty plus years old.  Would it be PS-1 ?  How would I know which Protosound version it is ?   My reason for asking is that the sounds seems to be dropping out during running.  It sounds like it is missing a chuff now and then.  I checked the MTH battery and it is reading in the 8 volt range.  I have only test run the loco since I received it a little over a week ago.

MartyF,

    I have always respected your knowledge and your professionalism, someday we will definitely bump into each other, and talk about a few things.  I look forward to talking with you in person.  Between you and Barry I have learned many many things about the new remote control systems, and building DCS layouts, and I appreciate it very much.

Dan,

   When purchasing used you must know what the original owner did or did not due, to upgrade what you have purchased.  I do believe in original condition your engine is a P1. Many of the members could identify your engine for you, they keep pretty fair track, of all the different MTH sales lists, I do not.  The next time you invest in a used engine, make real sure you get all the pertinent identifying information/upgrades on the engine, before you purchase, most times this saves a lot of head aches.  

PCRR/Dave

I bought my super caps for 6 dollars and wired them my self what is this guy talking about too much for a  Bcr. Johngate also said 25.00 for them,where is he getting his prices. I didn't pay that. Super caps are the way to go.

bigdogjeff1 posted:

I bought my super caps for 6 dollars and wired them my self what is this guy talking about too much for a  Bcr. Johngate also said 25.00 for them,where is he getting his prices. I didn't pay that. Super caps are the way to go.

First, you should probably get someone's name right when you choose to call them out in a, thus far, civil discussion.  Second, I think I have  said from the start that I think the BCR is a just fine product.  I just think that any name brand NiMH low self-discharge battery is also a fine product.  Third, I believe I actually said $30.  I've seen this price mentioned in previous threads on the topic over the last several years.  Turns out the the BCR is listed for $24.95 (+$6.00 S/h), with a buy 10, get 1 free offer making them $22.68 each.  Even at the $31 a single unit costs these are a good deal for what you get.  So, to answer the only question I see, I am getting my prices from the website of the product's manufacturer, and am unaware of anyone that sells them for a lower price.  

As far as the home made version, That has not been discussed to this point.  I fully agree that building your own super cap battery replacement will put the cost in line with using an off the shelf battery.  I suspect, however, that folks that are concerned about having to open a locomotive once a decade, or unaware of how to charge a battery, will also not be likely to want to construct their own Super cap set-up.   So far, the discussion has involved a range of folk, with the original poster being unaware of what a BCR even is at the start of the discussion. 

So, what I am talking about is whether or not it is worthwhile for someone to place a name brand BCR in an engine, or a NiMH battery.  If you want to bring  the merits and drawbacks of the home made super-cap battery replacement into the discussion I can do that as well.  + side, all the same pluses as the real BCR.  - side:  Unknown quality of the super-caps when purchased at bargain prices.  Still costs more than a NiMH battery.  depending on the time taken and attention to detail, can look like a hack-job that will affect the resale value of the engine.  Requires a minimal level of proficiency with soldering and electronic components. Lastly, construction and installation must be completed by the owner, as the actual product is patented.  Also worth noting that the name brand product claims to be rated for 10.8VDC charging voltage so that it will work correctly with a 10.4v charge circuit on PS2 engines.  Most supercaps, and all of the cheap ones I routinely see are rated for 5.0 volts and with the standard configuration of two of these in series they will still be damaged over time by applying over 10.0v to the device.  If you're ok with having to replace the super caps in the same, or shorter, time frame as a battery, this will still work out just fine.  So, in the end, if you know what you are doing, a home made super-cap battery replacement will be a cost effective solution.  If you don't know what you are doing, well, as with most things in life, you will spend more money in the long run that you would doing it right the first time.  

The website for the name brand battery replacement has quite a bit of information about the problems with knock-offs.  Some may just be propaganda, but it all looks reasonable to me.  

JGL

(spelled John Galt Line)

Pine Creek Railroad posted:

MartyF,

    I have always respected your knowledge and your professionalism, someday we will definitely bump into each other, and talk about a few things.  I look forward to talking with you in person.  Between you and Barry I have learned many many things about the new remote control systems, and building DCS layouts, and I appreciate it very much.

Dan,

   When purchasing used you must know what the original owner did or did not due, to upgrade what you have purchased.  I do believe in original condition your engine is a P1. Many of the members could identify your engine for you, they keep pretty fair track, of all the different MTH sales lists, I do not.  The next time you invest in a used engine, make real sure you get all the pertinent identifying information/upgrades on the engine, before you purchase, most times this saves a lot of head aches.  

PCRR/Dave

 

Good point.  As I continue to re-educate myself on the products that have become available since I left O scale in the early '90s, I am learning as I buy.  However, this forum has given me answers to the many questions I post.  Coming from large scale, where I pretty much reworked most of the locos and rolling stock I bought, that's where my mind still is.  The electronics in this newer stuff is quite intimidating, so I will hesitate to mess with it until I pose questions here.

One more question on the MTH Hudson.  I noticed that there is no E-unit lock out switch on the tender bottom.  The elaborate instruction manual indicates that there should be one.  Any ideas ?

Here is battery info

The dreaded battery misinformation post AGAIN!    There is nothing wrong with NiCad batteries for our trains.  Any battery tested under load that holds voltage will work fine when in a train.  Memory effect has to do with deep drain cycles, not 10-15sec at 100 to 300ma. 

Currently NiCad in 8.4V is harder to come by other than no name brands, most are NiMH.  MTH Still sells NiCad 2.4V batteries.

8.4V batteries seem to last 5 years, 2.4V 7 years.

PS-1 and PS-2 3V boards are not damaged by weak batteries.

Early PS-1 prior to 97 can have memory issues if you use batteries that are low charge around 5 to 6V.  High enough the processor tries to write, but too low to complete.  Totally dead batteries and the processor will not write to memory.

PS-2 5V may or may not be, they have a lower overall reliability for spontaneous failure.

Shorted batteries are bad, so are shorted BCRs.

Charging from 0 volts is probably harder on the Power Supply than charging a battery.

In general both work period.  G

Battery finished charging on track in tender, 12 volts for 8 hrs.  The 20-3038 scale Atlantic works fine....smoke.....dialog....whistle....bell....all performing as original.  I have always loved this little passenger steamer.

Thanks to all on this thread.  It was an education.  And Marty, I recorded the date of the battery change.

12V for 8 hour. A BCR charges in 1 minute.

Jim 1939 posted:

12V for 8 hour. A BCR charges in 1 minute.

1 minute every time you haven't run the engine for an hour or two vs 8 hours once, if the engine has been in storage for more than a year.  8 hours of run time over a week or two will do fine to charge the battery in cases where it was charged less than a year before.  ( using a year as a nice simple amount of time, the actual time will vary based on the capacity of the battery, but in the case of all major brands will be somewhere in the 14-20 month range.  Also note that even in the case that the engine has been stored long enough to fully discharge the battery, a useable charge will only take 10-20 minutes to allow the engine to operate normally and the remaining charge can be applied while running.  

Worth noting that if the new battery is a Low Self-Discharge(Pre-Charged) type as all name brand NiMH batteries are these days, you'll do more harm than good by applying a full charge out of the package.  These batteries, when installed before the date marked on the package, come ready to use.  

GGG, 

It is true that NiCD batteries are perfectly good when used, and charged, correctly... Sadly train engines do neither.

While LSD type NiMH batteries suffer from some of the same issues as NiCD, most notably the issue of voltage depression, they do so to a much lesser extent.  In addition, NiMH do not suffer from crystallization which damages the battery.  

There ARE two issues with using NiCD batteries in train engines with the charge design that is in use.  One of these also affects NiMH, but not to the extent that it does NiCD.  First you have voltage depression.  This occurs when you routinely charge/over-charge the cell when it still has a good charge.  with the small amount of actual discharge that the engines use, they will never become significantly depleted in use in a model train engine.  The charge circuit then applied constant over-charge while the engine is running.  over time this will cause the battery to report a lower voltage even when fully charged.  While it will hold this voltage for just as long, a circuit designed to require 8.4V... Mostly likely, actually 6.7V on the input side of a 5 volt regulator... will not run correctly with a battery that only provides less than 1v per cell, even if that battery will provide that 1V for a significant time.  NiMH batteries also suffer from voltage depression, however, depending on what study you look at they appear to be between 5 and 25 times more resistant to it.  

Voltage depression is a non issue for NiCD/NiMH batteries given proper exercise, meaning they are fully depleted and recharged at least once a month, and it can often be repaired by a heavy depletion well below the normal "dead" level, then a re-charge.  Unfortunately, in train engines they do not see proper maintenance and usage like this.  

The second thing that effects NiCD batteries is crystallization.  When NiCD batteries are over-charged, AND when they are not charged for long periods of time crystals of cadmium form in the cell.  These crystals reduce the surface area of the plates and thus reduce the total capacity of the battery.  In addition, as the crystals grow they can puncture the film between layers and cause a short between them. This will drain the battery just as shorting it externally would.  Once the battery has been damages in this way, if it is not repaired, it will continue to damage it's self further with every charge cycle.  

When NiMH was first introduced, NiCD still held one advantage over it:  High current discharge.  For use in RC cars and Airplanes NiCD could deliver higher current, even if it could so so for only a short amount of time. ( Even in the early days, NiMH had 2-3 times the capacity of NiCD)  As NiMH batteries have improved, however they have relegated this deficiency to the history books.  With Li-Ion batteries providing even better current drain, and lighter weight, however, Li-Ion has replaced NiMH for many folks into the RC cars and planes.  

Quite honestly there is only one thing NiCD batteries still do better than NiMH.  They have a longer lifespan, when charged and discharged correctly, than NiMH.  NiHM typically are rated for 350-500 full discharge cycles, and similar NiCD are rated for 750-1500 cycles.  So, if you are building something with a proper charge circuit designed to exercise the battery properly, and it is going to be a pain to replace the battery, NiCD may be the way to go... For most things, however, NiMH does everything better than NiCD.  

JGL

It is also 8 hours of unnecessary use of the electronic boards.

Jim 1939 posted:

It is also 8 hours of unnecessary use of the electronic boards.

I don't know what THAT has to do with it. On the other hand, all the various "boards" in the MTH command electronics prior to PS3, have a battery charging circuit, that continually charges the battery. What happens when one replaces the batter with the BCR, and now there isn't anything for the internal charging circuit to "continually charge"?

Jim 1939 posted:

It is also 8 hours of unnecessary use of the electronic boards.

At this point I have to believe that folks simply do not read what I write.  The point was that the battery is charged in normal operation, and does not require additional charge time in normal service.  

JGL

JohnGaltLine posted:

Jim 1939 posted:

It is also 8 hours of unnecessary use of the electronic boards.

At this point I have to believe that folks simply do not read what I write.  The point was that the battery is charged in normal operation, and does not require additional charge time in normal service.  

JGL

EXACTLY!!!!!    Not only that but, most of the various MTH PS2 models have an external charging port, whether 5 volt or 3 volt, thus the model doesn't have to "sit in powered track" overnight. That MTH battery charging assembly is one of the best items I've ever purchased, as soon as it came out, many years ago.

Being anti BCR is your choice but in case you haven't noticed that is exactly what MTH has built into their PS3s.

Once I finished changing the battery on the 20-3038 steamer, I decided to change the blue battery in my 30-1432 0-6-0 switcher, since it's almost 10 years old.  My LHS didn't have the battery in stock, but had a tiny BCR with a wired plug hanging off it.  Another simple job done in the tender.  So now I'm on both sides of the discussion.  When I first turned it on, the engine sat there for about a minute b4 coming to life.  The BCR held a charge while I shut down power for lunch.  So basically I'm happy with both so far.  Thanks again guys.

Hot Water posted:

JohnGaltLine posted:

Jim 1939 posted:

It is also 8 hours of unnecessary use of the electronic boards.

At this point I have to believe that folks simply do not read what I write.  The point was that the battery is charged in normal operation, and does not require additional charge time in normal service.  

JGL

EXACTLY!!!!!    Not only that but, most of the various MTH PS2 models have an external charging port, whether 5 volt or 3 volt, thus the model doesn't have to "sit in powered track" overnight. That MTH battery charging assembly is one of the best items I've ever purchased, as soon as it came out, many years ago.

The only reason that I charged the battery on the track for 8 hours was that I installed a NEW GREEN MTH battery in my year 2000 steamer.  The bottom of the tender does NOT have a charging port  My more recent PS2 engines do have the charging port.  I did read the advice given by Marty F, my LHS and others b4 I made the change.  

I just added a BCR to a 2006 PS2 engine as well.  I guess time will tell.

Jim 1939 posted:

Being anti BCR is your choice but in case you haven't noticed that is exactly what MTH has built into their PS3s.

I'm not anti-BCR.  If you take the time to read each post in this discussion I have stated that I think the BCR is a just fine product.  As stated throughout, I also believe LSD NiMH batteries are also a just fine product.  The only point I've been concerned with is the cost effectiveness, which I've already discussed at length.  If the money is less valuable than the time, the BCR wins...Maybe:

Jim, I do not believe, however, that the points you've made are selling points for a BCR over a battery.  

If you are concerned about waiting for a battery to charge, I expect having to wait, any amount of time, every time your engine has sat overnight would be equally annoying.  For me it would be annoying to the point of marking it up as a point against the BCR, however not knowing how others feel on the subject I have not counted it as such.  It is just something to consider, just like considering that a NiMH battery may need 10-20 minutes power before the engine will be useable if it has been stored well over a year.  

As to the 'stress' on the electronics, if this is actually a concern for you, I would look carefully into exactly what stress is placed on the charge circuit with a NiMH battery versus with a BCR, both each time the engine is used, and after long term storage.  The information I have on the BCR, both the real, name brand product, and the options for home-brewed super-cap solutions involve 2 parts;  super capacitors and zener diodes to limit voltage to the caps.  With this arrangement the device will draw maximum current from the charge circuit until fully charged each and every time power is applied.  I have not seen reports of damaged charge circuits from this, but I would expect it is the primary concern for the gentleman that advises against their use in posts above.  Quite honestly, if you are concerned about the stress on the electronics, a battery is the way to go, as they only draw max current when drained to a level that would not be expected in a model train engine unless stored for several years.  For a locomotive that sees use even a few times a year the battery will never draw a high load on the charging circuit.  

In the end, I stand by my initial point only, namely that there is nothing wrong with using a LSD NiMH battery.  The BCR seems like a good option as well, but it does have faults, like any method of power storage.  

JGL

My experience with the battery issue was nothing but bad. I put BCRs in my engines and stopped buying MTH engines. That was before the green battery. I did buy 1 engine(RK CP Royal Hudson) that had the new flat blue battery and it did work much better than the old type.  However I replaced that one as well with a BCR. I have had no further battery issues with my 6 MTH engines since tossing the batteries.

Jim

JohnGaltLine posted:

Jim 1939 posted:

12V for 8 hour. A BCR charges in 1 minute.

1 minute every time you haven't run the engine for an hour or two vs 8 hours once, if the engine has been in storage for more than a year.  8 hours of run time over a week or two will do fine to charge the battery in cases where it was charged less than a year before.  ( using a year as a nice simple amount of time, the actual time will vary based on the capacity of the battery, but in the case of all major brands will be somewhere in the 14-20 month range.  Also note that even in the case that the engine has been stored long enough to fully discharge the battery, a useable charge will only take 10-20 minutes to allow the engine to operate normally and the remaining charge can be applied while running.  

Worth noting that if the new battery is a Low Self-Discharge(Pre-Charged) type as all name brand NiMH batteries are these days, you'll do more harm than good by applying a full charge out of the package.  These batteries, when installed before the date marked on the package, come ready to use.  

 

GGG, 

It is true that NiCD batteries are perfectly good when used, and charged, correctly... Sadly train engines do neither.

While LSD type NiMH batteries suffer from some of the same issues as NiCD, most notably the issue of voltage depression, they do so to a much lesser extent.  In addition, NiMH do not suffer from crystallization which damages the battery.  

There ARE two issues with using NiCD batteries in train engines with the charge design that is in use.  One of these also affects NiMH, but not to the extent that it does NiCD.  First you have voltage depression.  This occurs when you routinely charge/over-charge the cell when it still has a good charge.  with the small amount of actual discharge that the engines use, they will never become significantly depleted in use in a model train engine.  The charge circuit then applied constant over-charge while the engine is running.  over time this will cause the battery to report a lower voltage even when fully charged.  While it will hold this voltage for just as long, a circuit designed to require 8.4V... Mostly likely, actually 6.7V on the input side of a 5 volt regulator... will not run correctly with a battery that only provides less than 1v per cell, even if that battery will provide that 1V for a significant time.  NiMH batteries also suffer from voltage depression, however, depending on what study you look at they appear to be between 5 and 25 times more resistant to it.  

Voltage depression is a non issue for NiCD/NiMH batteries given proper exercise, meaning they are fully depleted and recharged at least once a month, and it can often be repaired by a heavy depletion well below the normal "dead" level, then a re-charge.  Unfortunately, in train engines they do not see proper maintenance and usage like this.  

The second thing that effects NiCD batteries is crystallization.  When NiCD batteries are over-charged, AND when they are not charged for long periods of time crystals of cadmium form in the cell.  These crystals reduce the surface area of the plates and thus reduce the total capacity of the battery.  In addition, as the crystals grow they can puncture the film between layers and cause a short between them. This will drain the battery just as shorting it externally would.  Once the battery has been damages in this way, if it is not repaired, it will continue to damage it's self further with every charge cycle.  

When NiMH was first introduced, NiCD still held one advantage over it:  High current discharge.  For use in RC cars and Airplanes NiCD could deliver higher current, even if it could so so for only a short amount of time. ( Even in the early days, NiMH had 2-3 times the capacity of NiCD)  As NiMH batteries have improved, however they have relegated this deficiency to the history books.  With Li-Ion batteries providing even better current drain, and lighter weight, however, Li-Ion has replaced NiMH for many folks into the RC cars and planes.  

Quite honestly there is only one thing NiCD batteries still do better than NiMH.  They have a longer lifespan, when charged and discharged correctly, than NiMH.  NiHM typically are rated for 350-500 full discharge cycles, and similar NiCD are rated for 750-1500 cycles.  So, if you are building something with a proper charge circuit designed to exercise the battery properly, and it is going to be a pain to replace the battery, NiCD may be the way to go... For most things, however, NiMH does everything better than NiCD.  

JGL

 

How many MTH PS-1 engines do you own?  How many do you repair?  Just yesterday I worked on 4 PS-1/PS-2 5V engine from 1998 to 2000.  Pulled 4 original white NiCad batteries out of the engines that still have voltage and did NO harm to the engines.  I have one still on my desk holding 8V under load.

So clarify why NiCad is not used or charged correctly for our trains?

Anyone can go to various websites and gather information and misapply it to any circumstance. 

Everything has a pro and con, but just because a con exist doesn't mean it is a factor under all operating conditions.

Our trains do not use the battery to operate it, they only use it for sound backup and processor operations when power is turned off.  Motor, smoke, light functions all turn off and only the microprocessor and audio amp function for 7 to 15 seconds depending on model.  You could probably get away with a alkaline battery for about a year if the charging circuit was disabled.  Folks still buy off brand NiCad batteries for their engines.  2.4V NiCad is still a standard. 

NiMH is probably more about getting Cadium out of batteries than anything else.  Unless you talking about space satellites and deep drain and recharging cycles where you need the full endurance of the battery.  At that point the memory effect matters.  

And Post War folks hate batteries no matter what, because many PW engines were ruined by wet cell batteries left in engines in the 40's and 50's.  The fact that dry cell and sealed batteries exist now will not change their opinion on batteries in trains.   G

GGG,

   You are correct, it's one of the reasons I replace all the batteries in my P2 Engines with BCR's, instead of changing to another battery.     

PCRR/Dave

GGG posted:

How many MTH PS-1 engines do you own?  How many do you repair?  Just yesterday I worked on 4 PS-1/PS-2 5V engine from 1998 to 2000.  Pulled 4 original white NiCad batteries out of the engines that still have voltage and did NO harm to the engines.  I have one still on my desk holding 8V under load.

So clarify why NiCad is not used or charged correctly for our trains?

Anyone can go to various websites and gather information and misapply it to any circumstance. 

I suspect you repair quite a few PS1 engines.  In those what percentage would you say have 16-18 year old NiCD batteries in proper working order?  What percentage of these engines do you return to the customer with that same battery installed?  

When I worked as a mechanic I'd not quite often, but somewhat regularly see cars that had not had their oil changed for 10,000 plus miles.  The engines still ran fine.  Is your suggestion that something is the proper way to do something as long as it does not cause failure?  

"So clarify why NiCad is not used or charged correctly for our trains?"  
Sure.  EVERY source of information available on the use and charging of NiCD batteries offers the same information.  They should receive a full cycle discharge around once a month, and they should not be over-charged or trickle charged.  PS1 engines never give a full cycle discharge and they always trickle charge while running.  Will failing to do this ruin every battery? No, not likely, but just like the oil change, it is proper maintenance to prevent problems.  

I guess the question here is, if you have a bad battery, are you suggesting that NiCD is a better choice than LSD-NiMH for a PS1 engine.  I'll assume you have to buy a new battery either way, not that you have a stockpile of one or the other already.  It is fairly obvious that if you already own a NiCD, it makes more sense to use it than to buy something else.  

I'm not anti-NiCD.  They are perfectly fine rechargeable batteries when properly serviced.  LSD-NiMH just do everything better for the same price.  GGG, is it your position that I am wrong about this and that NiCD is superior to LSD-NiMH and is a better choice, both in general, or in use in a PS1 engine?

JGL

Jim 1939 posted:

Maybe 25 years but a BCR is always ready to go no matter how long the engine sits. Yes first time on the tracks does take the one minute to charge. No big deal compared to keeping batteries.

Completely Agree

I am saying, for our trains don't sweat the composition of the battery, it will never matter.  Just buy a quality battery and don't get distracted by the fluff. You can go on and on about NiCad and deep cycles, memory effect and what ever.  BUT go look at your cordless phone if you have one.  NiCad, constant trickle charge and NEVER deep drained.  The last set of phones like that I replaced at 12 years old, when the batteries finally became useless.  Cheaper to by new phone set than replace those batteries.

So again how the system operates matters.  Much of what you stated while factual is not applicable for our trains and you would never know.

I see NiCad routinely still good over the 5 year period for 8.4.  I do change them since folks sending engines to me do not want to open.  I install MTH batteries when batteries called for and install Supercaps when folks want that option.

If you order batteries from MTH you will get NiMH for 8.4V and NiCad for 2.4V AA and NiMH for 2.4V AAA.  That is what they supply.  By the way the 2.4V AAA do not last nearly as long as the AA NiCad.  The capacity of the AAA is a factor, but I imagine the composition factors in too.

I would use the oil analogy a little different, do you really sweat the oil type used if you routinely change it at 3000 miles.  Walmart brand is just as good as a name brand if it meets the industry spec.  You will never see or notice the difference in engine life.   G

Today I just purchased 5 Protosound batteries (50-1008) for my Protosound locomotives. But I noticed that has 200mAH instead of 120mAH. What is the difference between them?

I buy the 9V EBL NiMh batteries on Amazon, they're about $3/ea.  I've never had an issue with them, and I am pretty sure they would easily equal the quality of the $15 MTH green batteries.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I buy the 9V EBL NiMh batteries on Amazon, they're about $3/ea.  I've never had an issue with them, and I am pretty sure they would easily equal the quality of the $15 MTH green batteries.

Thank you for the reply, but I'm also wondering if the 50-1008 battery is the same with the BG-4000005 battery,

I'm sure that either will work just fine.  FWIW, on the MTH website, both the 50-1008 and the BG-4000005 state they're 120mah.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm sure that either will work just fine.  FWIW, on the MTH website, both the 50-1008 and the BG-4000005 state they're 120mah.

But when I received them, it states they have 200mah.

Well, in the greater scheme of things, the MAH rating means virtually nothing, as they are never called on to deliver anything close to their ratings.  You could use something with 20mah there just fine.  It needs a couple hundred milliamps for 10 seconds perform it's function in PS/1 or PS/2 locomotives.

It is ok if a battery has a higher mAh rating than the original... for the most part. Think of the mah number as how long the battery will last.  In general bigger numbers are better here. 

Getting in to the nitty gritty, there are cases where a badly designed product can be damaged by a battery with a much higher capacity as the charging circuit is overtaxed by a dead battery, however, as far as I am aware the circuits used in mth engines are designed to protect against excessive current draw as most every quality product is. 

In short, a 200mah battery is a just fine replacement for a 170mah one, and it will last a bit longer on a charge. 

Well, in this application it's OK if it has a lower rating as well, at least IMO.