My dream/nightmare layout... July Update 7/31/19 Big Boy month!

(standing ovation)  Magnifique! 

Mitch

Wow. You could order something on credit, and by the time it gets thru the layout once, you'd have it paid for!

Elliott.....simply amazing......I've been big fan of yours since your TM video days....your work is inspiring!

Peter

Great Job Elliot,

Have you determined the TMCC issue? And do you think a ground plane wire will solve it?

I had one tunnel that had issues but was resolved with the ground plane wire...

Keep up the good work!

I love the updates to this thread. The work is awesome! Thanks for updating it!

-Tom

Mind boggling to say the least, Elliot.  Spectacular in every respect.

Just a thought.  Try running under darkness.  This new fangled lighting sometimes sets up an awful lot of RFI which could affect signals.  Certain dimmers do the same.  With all these injections producing dirty electricity I'm surprised TMCC or DCS even has a chance.

Bruce

Thanks guys!

Peter - That's a long time, more than 22 years.

John - I haven't looked at it since we shot the video. Eliot Scher sent me an email with a long list of things to look at. It is going to take a lot more testing to reach any kind of conclusion. There may be too much ground.

Tom - I always post late on the last day of the month, or if I'm really late, it will go past midnight, like this month.

Bruce - I had forgotten about that. I'll add it to the list and check that too.

Elliot

As much as I like my hard copy of OGR. There is no magazine on the planet that can even come close to the enjoyment I have got from watching this build the past several years right here on the forum.

Maybe a set of encyclopedias on the subject may come close.

4 or 5 or 6 pages in a magazine can not match how well you have shared the layout. I certainly enjoy it.

I think you may be the top train nut on the forum. Even though there is a lot of us very close behind you.

Larry

Still having fun with trains.

This is one of a handful of "FEATURE" threads that I look forward to each month.

Props to Elliot for his thoughtful, detailed and well-photographed posts (with a video bonus this month!) each month on this mega-layout.

Experience gained from listening to Shortwave.  Some of the worst noise inducers are modern appliances, which generally have the bare minimum in filtering.  Most any of the lighting that transforms AC to low voltage DC are big noise makers too.  Flickering street lights used to be a major problem, 'til I bought myself a Bee-Bee gun.

Bruce

Larry and Carl, I'm flattered! For me this topic has turned into an interactive blog chronicling the construction, and I do love sharing it with all of you.

Bruce, there are a couple of big differences between the 455Khz and shortwave. I am by no means a RF expert so I'm not sure if they suffer from the same interference sources. What I think might be happening here is this: imagine that the track signal is a cylindrical shape running along the track. The sweet spot is at just the right height for the antenna in the engine to pick it up. The introduction of stray ground sources will distort the cylinder making reception difficult or impossible. For now it is jus blind guess work.

Elliot, cool stuff! I typically only see a Helix in HO or N scale rarley in O.Quite the massive layout to say the least I'm "wowed". Is this your private layout ?

Thank you, and yes, that is my basement George. There are actually two helixes. The "big" one is 10' diameter, and the "small" one is 8'

Wow !!  Yah gonna need some solar panels on the roof to supply the power to that Monstah !!!!!

Honestly, I did plan to do just that, but when the rebates from the utility company fell through, it no longer made economic sense.

In spite of its size, train power consumption is actually very modest. The layout lighting may very well be the single largest piece of the puzzle at nearly 20A of LED bulbs. I could never have done it with incandescent bulbs.

Actually, the track signal is really the "ground" and is conducted directly to the TMCC receiver through the wheels/frame.  The antenna is picking up the signal being radiated from the earth ground that is the 3rd wire of your grounded outlet.  Dale Manquen has a great page with extensive detail on how TMCC works, and he says it far better than I will typing it all in here.  He has spent a lot of time analyzing TMCC and is one of the most knowledgeable folks I know on the topic.

Lionel TMCC Command Base 7/29/11

A short clip from this very long page.

The house wiring now becomes a huge antenna that is further augmented by the ground rod connecting the safety wiring to earth ground. The signal radiated by this house wiring and ground is the signal that is picked up by a locomotive’s antenna, NOT THE TRACK SIGNAL!

That's why running an earth ground signal around in problem areas improves the reception.

Thanks John. I've actually read much of Dale's material on TMCC, and think I have a pretty fair grasp of the concept as a result. Remember this oldie but a goody from three years ago?

As far as I know, I am not a source of earth ground, especially when I am standing on a wooden floor 12" above the concrete with rubber soled shoes. The only two things I can think of that would make the engine behave better with my hand above it are:

1. I am reflecting the ambient earth ground directly at the engine's antenna or
2. I am loosely coupled to the antenna and acting as massive extension to it

Either way, the take away is the same, this engine can't find the earth ground in this location. I recently saw this topic about R2LC tuning. Maybe that's what this one needs, a tweak of the slug.

This is why I so desperately feel that I need to build Stan2004's signal strength meter. I understand that it isn't really measuring the track signal, it's measuring the earth ground through the antenna. This would actually tell me if the problem is environmental to the track, or specific to the engine. The meter deflections would suggest environmental.

I mentioned earlier that the room was laced with extraneous earth ground sources, as I use metal conduit and boxes to supply house current to a series of outlets around the layout. When I did the first run to Hiawatha, I noticed that there was one particular spot where the engine lost signal and quit. That spot was directly above the metal box where the power supplies were plugged in. I believe there is something to this, and I think that shielding this box may be the answer. My solution would be to wrap it with duct tape then apply conductive foil tape over that.

Once I finish the construction, and the new variables stop, I'll get very serious about dealing with this headache. Bottom line is I need my trains to run reliably if I am going to be able to have people come over for operating sessions.

Maybe you have too much signal to the antenna.

It's really hard to say exactly what is happening, but the signal strength meter would be useful.  I was thinking of one that actually broadcast the meter reading to a display, the "poor man's" solution would be one of the tiny 2.4ghz cameras to a small display.  Focus the camera on the meter and you're all set with a meter you can read from your easy chair as it goes around the layout.

Well John, let's try and keep this meter project as simple as possible. One side of the meter goes to pin 13 on the chip, the other to ground on the engine? I can just follow it around and read it directly, so that simplifies things a lot.

Yes, I am a little worried about the "too much signal" bit. I do believe that I have "hot spots" in the earth ground. The meter will allow me to see them and determine if my remedies are working. Throw in a little engine tuning, and we might just get this thing under control, and make running trains fun again.

Are we having fun yet?

I've always loved a good challenge! I think this qualifies. I'm a problem solver at heart.

A very busy November is now in the books. Joe came over twice and did mostly wiring, however, I did have him squeeze in between the Roseville deck and the ceiling to secure the plywood to the supports.

That space is only 8 inches high! I had hoped to get this area done in November, but Joe was busy after that. It sure would be nice to get it done in December. That is the last track to finish the entire layout. I bought the last switches I needed from a couple forum  members. The fiber board just needs to be cut and glued in place.

Instead, I focused on a couple major projects. The first was the continuation of the fascia on the lower deck which I had started back in October.

Here we see aisle two completely hung and all the holes filled.

These next two shots are of aisle three. Note the curve on the left, in later shots there is additional support cribbing added to the benchwork..

Back to aisle two. Paint really makes a difference.

The fascia on the right gets wider as the tracks go up grade.

Here you can see the additional supports.

I just thought this was an interesting shot.

The other major project was getting switches operational on the upper deck. Here we see the first stages of some of the new temporary control panels.

These next two are the largest, most complicated ones on the upper deck.

These are the new 24 volt style panels. They only require a daisy chain ground wire, and a control line which goes back to to the turnout relay panels I built in September and October. These throw the relays, and the relays flip the polarity to the Tortoises.

In all I made 8 panels this month, the one above and the 7 seen here.

Time to start installing them.

Cat 5 cables are routed from the field between the backdrops and down to the relay below.

Had to get creative with the support for the Park Junction panel.

A few screws later the panel was in place. Time to make it all work!

Here we see some of the Tortoise connections to the relay panel. The process went very smoothly, but there were a few glitches along the way. All were easily solved.

The clear relay was a replacement. This one had me scratching my head until I put my meter on the output terminals and discovered that I had voltage in one direction but not the other. It had to be a bad contact on a sealed relay.

Another problem was a broken conductor inside a cable. Fortunately, I had a spare on that route, so it was an easy switch, once I figured it out.

I had a couple broken wires where they connected to the tortoise. The trick to those is reaching them in place.

The only other problem was the Tortoise that came up with stripped gears all of a sudden after repeated successful testing. Go figure.

When you have 103 mainline turnouts, it pays to keep good records. The pencil marks tell me what color wire is going back to the panel. The first column is the to the Tortoise, the second is the relay control wire.

Finally, some of the other finished panels in their proper locations around the layout. All are fully functional.

The end of December will mark the third anniversary of this topic. I expect to have some major news to report with at least one new video, as well as the year end review. Stay tuned.

I was hunting for this thread, good amount of work done this month, congraduations!

Will be looking forward to the end of next month's posting.

I always look forward to this thread. Great progress Elliot.  I can't wait to see the video in December. Happy Holidays.   

As always outstanding work continues. I enjoy the posts and updates.

Have fun and Merry Christmas.

Larry

Awe Inspiring. At 1st glance it looks like a giant multi level HO layout but its 3 rail. KUDOS to you & Well Done! I hope OGR puts your layout into their magazine or video series.

Uhh........

I'm speechless!

That is such a massive undertaking it's hard to comprehend it all!  I think we're going to have to press for an OGR train show when it's finished.  This is a layout that will rival commercial displays, and probably exceed most of them!

Once again truly amazing work Elliot! I also love this thread and anxiously await the updates at the end of each month!

Elliot,

You are a genious!   What a great layout.   You and your team are to be congratulated on a wonderful layout.   I am amazed at the complexity and workmanship of everything you have accomplished.  

What did you do before you retired?  You obviously have many skills in electronics and carpentry.   Are your engines Lionel only or do you have Atlas-O in your fleet?       

That's amazing! 

Keep up the good work!

George

Thanks guys, I really appreciate all the great comments!!!

Redball - Glad you found it! I always post the updates at the same time each month. Last day and late in the evening. I probably have a better on time percentage than Amtrak.

Pat - Here's a hint about the upcoming video. I haven't been inside the small helix in close to two years. I'm taking my wiring tools with me. I'm leaving instructions with my wife that if I'm not back in time for dinner, to send a rescue party.

Larry - This is getting more and more fun every day, even though it is hard work. I was downstairs for much of the day today. It suddenly dawned on me why things take so long when connecting the switches to the panel. It's the distance that I have to pull the wires. I got six more done today. Now I have to go back and convert all of the old panels to the new system.

George (Seacoast) - Good observation! That's what makes this layout rather unique for 3 rail O. The railroad is very linear, even though it is folded to fit into the space. Unlike most of the layouts seen here on the forum, there are no loops to just let trains run. The schematic is actually a simple loop to loop but on a very grand scale. One loop is the large hidden yard. All trains enter the same way, and are then directed onto one of the five tracks where trains are queued up to five deep. The other loop is the entire mainline. Go around it one way and trains are headed east, enter the other way and they are going west.

John - You do know that I have a background that includes commercial displays, right? That's where I picked up a lot of these unusual practices, as well as many of the materials that I've been incorporating into this one. As for a get together, might I suggest that you plan your trip for Labor Day 2018. That will be the National Narrow Gauge Convention. That has been my target date since I found out about it last February.

Corey - I promise, I'll keep them coming.

Randy - I never really had any kind of steady career. I bounced around from job to job. In my early days, I worked in a hobby store. I built architectural models. I was a blackjack dealer. Later, I was in the apartment management business. Then I had my own business called enterTRAINment at Mall of America. After that closed, I was a courier for a while. I even built my own house. I've always loved wood working and tools. With all of my accumulated experience, layout building just comes naturally to me. It doesn't pay the bills, but it doesn't have to. I do have a fair number of Atlas engines, maybe 25 - 30%. Just about all the rest are Lionel. There are also a couple converted Williams and MTH in the mix.

George (G3750) - Will do, I'm on it just about every day. In November I even had some 8 and 9 hour days. I'm working on a deadline, just under 3 years to go.

Elliot,

Wow, I can't wait to see some videos, it will be amazing.  I do have one question about the masonite fascia, since I am trying to do something similar, how were you able to paint the masonite? 

Thank you,

Darren

It keep's getting more amazing each time you post updates!!!

Elliot, once again i tip my hat to you !!!!!

Alex

Elliot - It is really getting exciting now as you are entering into this phase.  Your organizational skills are really paying off as this has been a very complicated and detailed process.  I too always look forward to your updates.

Art

Hi Art, your kidding? OGR could do a series of how to articles on Elliot's layout, enough fodder for many issues, just my opinion.

Just the pictures would take several magazines!

But Art, Rich did a beautiful video job (Great Layout Adventures Volume 8) on our layout.

Jack - I forgot about your layout.  What did you do to him that he never wants to come back?  

Art

Art, did you notice that GLA volume 9 had at least 2 layouts in California?  GLA volume 10 had a layout in Clarksville, TN (almost due South from Chicago).  I have to believe that photos of layouts in Chicago with finished scenery will generate interest.

Slow down guys!   While I really love all this talk of magazine articles, I think we are getting a little ahead of ourselves. If you look back at all the pictures I've posted, very few have any trains in them. This is not to say that I don't own any, on the contrary, I have tons. Most of them just aren't on the layout yet because of the construction and the dust.

When I get done with all these switches, which should be this month or next, I hope to get going on rail painting and ballasting some sections. Then I can get some more trains out, I just need a clean and safe place to put them.

If you build it, he will come...