My 0-6-0 dockside switcher (6-30045) can light up and blow the whistle but it can’t move. Is it something in the wires that needs to be fixed? I know its one of the wires that connect from the rev unit to the motor but which one? Does anyone have this issue also
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That era e-unit was not the best design, and would often burn out. Unfortunately Lionel no longer has the board. Best bet is to put a rectifier in and run it forward only.
Isnt there also an on off switch for the direction? Or direction lockout?
AmeenTrainGuy posted:Why do you say it's one of the wires?
I said it was one of the wires because I accidentally put to much smoke fluid in and it burned something in their
Allan Loczy posted:Isnt there also an on off switch for the direction? Or direction lockout?
Yes their is but that’s not the case, it indicates if you go forward or backward with the lights on the back and front but it won’t move
BMT-Express posted:That era e-unit was not the best design, and would often burn out. Unfortunately Lionel no longer has the board. Best bet is to put a rectifier in and run it forward only.
Are you sure I mean their has to be another way I know that I accidentally put to much smoke fluid in and it caused that to burn. Their has to be another
AmeenTrainGuy posted:Why do you say it's one of the wires?
When I accidentally put to much smoke fluid in a smelled burned wires after it broke
AmeenTrainGuy posted:Which smoke fluid brand exactly? Some brands are non-conductive so they should not be able to damage components. If you already have it open, do you mind snapping a few photos?
No problem here’s the smoke unit and my engine.
AmeenTrainGuy posted:Well, the smoke fluid should not cause any problems. The red wire right in front of the firemen seems burnt. is that the wire you were talking about? It seems like your electronics are fine since you can blow the whistle and the lights do work. Do you hear the smoke unit's fan blowing when you turn the engine on?
A close up of the electronics would help since it's hard to assert which wire does not look right.
That could be the wire. Also my smoke unit is not fan driven it’s just the usual puffing smoke unit you see with conventional sets from the early 2000s. And sure I’ll give you a better picture soon
Ameen you still need the picture my phone is charged up
AmeenTrainGuy posted:That wire looks like it's going to the switch. It could be that the switch is broken, but that's highly unlikely. Have you tried investigating the smoke unit? Does it smell burnt out?
Smoke unit smells fine it’s in the middle of the e or rev unit
Turn your phone sideways for better photos. Upright is pretty much only good for selfies 
Also I think a shot from directly overhead will be best. I know it eats data, but the more photos the better. Also after one loads and you get "success", a new line and checkbox appear mid-box "insert large size" check that. Some phones don't open thumbnails at the bottom. (also at the bottom of thumbnail box in blue, a second chance to insert large/med/sm. If you edit, you can insert, reload, add,etc.
That wire looks kinda cooked to me too; I can't Dyspute that 😂 It's wrinkles stick out like a sore thumb. It might be ok, soldering melt, or overtaxed by the issues at hand.
Is that sw. for smoke on/off, or program/run? (it is your lock out too. throw it to pgm. while loco is in Ñ and you go nowhere, but other features may work. If fwd when thrown, always fwd. etc.
Start by unplugging and/ or turning off smoke. Tackle running 1st and then worry about smoke later.
AmeenTrainGuy posted:Train Nut posted:Looks like things got a little hot...
Good catch! Yeah, those do not look in very good condition and I am pretty sure those have something to do with the motor.
When you try to power it on does it feel hot? If so then that is the bug for sure.
Can you get a close up of that component in particular? Also, check if you see any melted plastic around it. Since those do get very hot when they break down.
I actually didn’t know that. When I get back from the dentist I’ll check it out.
Adriatic posted:Turn your phone sideways for better photos. Upright is pretty much only good for selfies
Also I think a shot from directly overhead will be best. I know it eats data, but the more photos the better. Also after one loads and you get "success", a new line and checkbox appear mid-box "insert large size" check that. Some phones don't open thumbnails at the bottom. (also at the bottom of thumbnail box in blue, a second chance to insert large/med/sm. If you edit, you can insert, reload, add,etc.
That wire looks kinda cooked to me too; I can't Dyspute that 😂 It's wrinkles stick out like a sore thumb. It might be ok, soldering melt, or overtaxed by the issues at hand.
Is that sw. for smoke on/off, or program/run? (it is your lock out too. throw it to pgm. while loco is in Ñ and you go nowhere, but other features may work. If fwd when thrown, always fwd. etc.
Start by unplugging and/ or turning off smoke. Tackle running 1st and then worry about smoke later.
My bad for the picture just started this account not to long ago. Still getting used to some things. And yea I’m gonna do running it first, the engine looks good with or without smoke so I’m good.
Yep.... Don't think Ive never been the new guy too
Wow, toasty. If you want to attempt a repair just to learn and explore, it won't hurt. But I'd consider hunting a board to use or wiring in a bridge rectifier myself, trying a repair, and saving it for backup if you succeed. Start writing down the numbers on the black parts with metal heat sinks. It might do no good as they don't always use marked parts or normal numbers, but trying can save some hassle figuring things out .
If you can once done with #s, wash the board in hot water, maybe with a little dish soap in it to remove the oils. Pat & shake & air dry fully (it's ok, believe me. Ive ran boards and even BIG mother boards thru industrial dishwashers a hundred times (turn of the chemicals if you use one of those and fasten/clip it to the racks in home machines.😁)
I have to cut it short for now. I don't argue when insomnia lets me sleep again.😴
I know it’s the next day but I didn’t get to see if it was hot or not I’m gonna do it now
TheRoyalHudson988 posted:AmeenTrainGuy posted:Train Nut posted:Looks like things got a little hot...
Good catch! Yeah, those do not look in very good condition and I am pretty sure those have something to do with the motor.
When you try to power it on does it feel hot? If so then that is the bug for sure.
Can you get a close up of that component in particular? Also, check if you see any melted plastic around it. Since those do get very hot when they break down.
I actually didn’t know that. When I get back from the dentist I’ll check it out.
Ok well it’s not hot but it is burnt, so is this the part that needs replacing
So does anyone know what I need to fix or replace
The first thing you need to do is figure out what happened and why? The smoke unit filling had nothing to do with an electrical short / overheating like that.
I’m not sure on that I’ll try it tomorrow.(sorry I waisted so long to post back I was busy today) and the Motor doesn’t move which means the engine can’t move
Everyone the smoke unit works great!😀 So it’s just the wire I need to worry about
Interesting, so now the motor is the only non-functioning thing?
Yes
It’s a whole different unit separated from the motor
Now test the motor before playing with the board.
Take one wire off "somewher" & jump in 6-12v DC to motor (3a supply or 6v 9v 12v battery (ideally with a fuse or more care ) Just make shure it turns ok 360° under power,no load on wheels with lower voltage ..at 12v if used, it should be strong. Reverse jump leads to test other direction too.
I can't see photos from the thumnail viewer. This is a copy paste off thumbnail of it' address; another option if you forget to check the box after success, before finishing uploading. Unplug the motor and jump it to test that isn't an issue.
Adriatic posted:Now test the motor before playing with the board.
Take one wire off "somewher" & jump in 6-12v DC to motor (3a supply or 6v 9v 12v battery (ideally with a fuse or more care
Ok just a few questions. Can this stuff even fit in the train with the shell on top? What do you mean by it turning 360.
Spinning and running; the shaft moves 360°.
The shell doesn't need to be on, lay the chassis on its side or put it on blocks. If the motor is cooked, we are wasting time on the board.
Just make sure the motor spins using power without any trouble. It must be dc to go right to the motor. The board turns track ac to dc before it gets to the motor, so you need dc to bypass the board to test.
Lightly spin 360° a bunch, both directions by hand too as that may reveal an internal snag/hang up you can feel.
One of the first things I do to a loco *if the shell lighting, etc doesn't have disconnect plugs* is cut and splice the shell wires or add a disconnect plug so I don't need a shell at all (not always mechanically possible to run without a shell, models vary,and never let an antenna wire dangle unprotected by tape. Dont let an antenna touch anything else as a general rule.)
Removing the motor would be needed on some, but I don't think you'll need to.
*the edit
Sorry for so many posts, spellwreck is having fun with m today. Check the last three for edits... the last one I'm about to do now.
Adriatic posted:Sorry for so many posts, spellwreck is having fun with m today. Check the last three for edits... the last one I'm about to do now.
It’s fine your just telling me how to do this. Sounds hard but I’ll take this to consideration.
Not really too hard. Pretty easy if you have alligator clip jumpers. Hardest part is usually having or stacking the batteries. (fresh 9v is my go to or a lantern batt. @6v or two 6v - to + for 12v makes it easy...( a car battery etc 
)
Scrap wire inserted into the plug temporarily etc.... You just need to verify the motor spins ok for now. Then the multi-meter, and maybe soldering iron gets put to use for board exploration (
don't panic! For simplicities sake, the diodes are just a one way check valves, transistors just tiny relays, and capacitors a holding tank.)
None of it is really hard, it just gets complicated because there is a lot of items. Focus on the basics and the finer detail can be learned later. It's all pretty logical; and the more basics you learn ,the more you'll realize it.
Ameens "lost post" is right. The "remove one wire" bit was before I saw for sure the motor had a plug. The goal was isolating the motor.
Isolating items for tests you can leave at least one connection in place. But two or more in place may lead in a circle thru other items, to the other leg(s) giving false reads (or in this case short out in the board before the motor can even try to use the power)
It depends on how things are connected. Some times it isn't needed, but you have to look and check.
Mostly it's just as easy to pull a leg or two off the board once the iron is warmed up.
And while on my mind, solder wont stick to stainless steel. So stainless tools are my preference. My best come from manicure kits. But the fishing box, the dentist and doc.s all contributed too 😁. Even SS tweezers work out well. Zircon encrusted is ok too. 😏 (it's not just for dental floss harvesting from your pygmy pony's saddle anymore 🙃)
Adriatic posted:Ameens "lost post" is right. The "remove one wire" bit was before I saw for sure the motor had a plug. The goal was isolating the motor.
Isolating items for tests you can leave at least one connection in place. But two or more in place may lead in a circle thru other items, to the other leg(s) giving false reads (or in this case short out in the board before the motor can even try to use the power)
It depends on how things are connected. Some times it isn't needed, but you have to look and check.
Mostly it's just as easy to pull a leg or two off the board once the iron is warmed up.
And while on my mind, solder wont stick to stainless steel. So stainless tools are my preference. My best come from manicure kits. But the fishing box, the dentist and doc.s all contributed too 😁. Even SS tweezers work out well. Zircon encrusted is ok too. 😏 (it's not just for dental floss harvesting from your pygmy pony's saddle anymore 🙃)
Ok now that I at least know what’s going on what should I do first and where do I get the tools needed. I want to take this step by step so the first step and stuff needed to complete the first step
AmeenTrainGuy posted:Yes, it will. The motor in most modern O-Scale equipment runs on DC the electronic board changes the current that comes from your transformer from AC to DC so that the motor can run. If you apply AC directly to the motor that guarantees your motor will burn out.
But my motor doesn’t work at all so what will this do?
Late to this thread but Trainz has Lionel part 6208613103, the reverse unit for the Docksider, in stock for $23.99. See https://www.trainz.com/product...e-unit-pcb-docksider.
swede
After posting, I tried the link and it didn't work. I then went to the Trainz website and searched for "Lionel 6208613103 Reverse Unit PCB /Docksider" and was able to get to the proper ad.
I agree with testing of the motor before making any purchase. Although I have not had the experience, there have been instances when the motor failed or was in failure and caused the board to fail. Mosfets can get extremely hot. The fact that the motor can be isolated by disconnecting a plug makes the testing that much easier.
If TRH988 does not have access to a DC power source to test the motor, or want to rig up a DC battery source as suggested, a spare DC phone charger or something similar can be used.
swede
rrswede posted:Late to this thread but Trainz has Lionel part 6208613103, the reverse unit for the Docksider, in stock for $23.99. See https://www.trainz.com/product...e-unit-pcb-docksider.
swede
After posting, I tried the link and it didn't work. I then went to the Trainz website and searched for "Lionel 6208613103 Reverse Unit PCB /Docksider" and was able to get to the proper ad.
Now way you actually found a part? Wow I thought they stopped I’m so happy. 😃
AmeenTrainGuy posted:rrswede posted:Late to this thread but Trainz has Lionel part 6208613103, the reverse unit for the Docksider, in stock for $23.99. See https://www.trainz.com/product...e-unit-pcb-docksider.
swede
Yeah, this is the route that will most likely be taken. We just want to make sure that it is the board and not the motor.
@TheRoyalHudson988 Yes, the motor is connected by a plug so you won't have to cut anything. Just make sure that the motor is isolated from the board.
Ok so I just in plug it to separate it right? Just asking so it doesn’t break anymore than it needs to
AmeenTrainGuy posted:Unless you've tested the motor with this same method, we can't tell for certain whether it's broken or not without bypassing the electronics board. The board may have a burnt component, which is why we want to test the motor directly so that we can narrow down what to replace.
Ok I understand
By the way Ameen, is the first step you told me the way how I test the motor?
AmeenTrainGuy posted:Yes, the long explanation I gave with pictures are the steps to test the motor. Just unplug the wires and test the motor using a DC power source between 9v and 15v.
Oh so just test the motor itself I gotcha
Time vs effort, at $24 I'd strongly consider that board. (after your confirmation of the motor not being damaged -the possible root cause for board issues). You may need both motor and board, save on shipping finding out now😉
After finding a bad motor, you may find the board still works. Scorched parts may or may not lead long lives after an overheating it's hard to say for sure.
Other engine boards controlling dc motors in other loco types may fit, and be a better choice, better motor responses, better sounds etc.. But the price of those will usually be higher. The lowest buck repair is the bridge rectifier, but, no dirrection change (except adding a sw. on loco), and possibly no sounds (depends on sound board and how it functions, as stand alone or how its tied to the main board beyond a simple power feed.
Don't toss the old board if you buy another. Other things can be used off of it eventually, or it may be repairable as a spare, or possibly even "hopped up" so it becomes better than the originals. Three options of three price ranges and three periods of time.... how fast you want it done is a factor too. Mostly folks want it done yesterday. I usually am happy with "eventually" and learning a thing or two.
Adriatic posted:Don't toss the old board if you buy another. Other things can be used off of it eventually, or it may be repairable as a spare, or possibly even "hopped up" so it becomes better than the originals. Three options of three price ranges and three periods of time.... how fast you want it done is a factor too. Mostly folks want it done yesterday. I usually am happy with "eventually" and learning a thing or two.
What about those ERR boards can I just use that or is that just for sound only
AmeenTrainGuy posted:TheRoyalHudson988 posted:Adriatic posted:Don't toss the old board if you buy another. Other things can be used off of it eventually, or it may be repairable as a spare, or possibly even "hopped up" so it becomes better than the originals. Three options of three price ranges and three periods of time.... how fast you want it done is a factor too. Mostly folks want it done yesterday. I usually am happy with "eventually" and learning a thing or two.
What about those ERR boards can I just use that or is that just for sound only
Yes, you can use those, although that will cost more. If you are looking for coupler, sound, light, smoke, and motor control, prepare to spend around $200. I would just go for the original board must more cost effective, unless you specifically want TMCC or cruise control.
I’m going to be moving to TMCC and legacy soon I mean I have the things needed to to that. But I’m just gonna keep her in conventional just for a little longer until that big day comes. By the way do they sell O gauge locomotive rollers on amazon?
Ok please don’t move on to the second step because I’m still getting the stuff for the first step
Everyone I just heard that Lionel are making new 0-6-0s take a look😀 it’s in their new second catalog for 2019. Page 72 in the lioncheif section. http://catalogs.lionel.com/19c2/
Ok I’m ready for the next step. I didn’t buy the board but I got the he micro mark rollers it seems easier then the circuit
AmeenTrainGuy posted:That tool will help you countless of times. The more tools you have the better.
The next step requires you to isolate the motor electronically. Make sure the board and the motor are unplugged form each other. We don't want to ruin the board trying to test the motor. Once done you will have to find some alligator clips or a solid pair of wires.
So do I just unplug it with my hands or do I need something special so I don’t break it
AmeenTrainGuy posted:TheRoyalHudson988 posted:So do I just unplug it with my hands or do I need something special so I don’t break it
Use your hands to delicately remove the plug. Do not use the wires to pull on the plug. Make sure you grasp the plug itself and tug gently.
Before I go ahead and do that just double checking. Are you sure I use my hands because that sounds a little scary😰😨
AmeenTrainGuy posted:Make sure power is off to the entire layout. Use your hands gently and try to release all the static in your hands by touching a metal surface before pulling it the plug out. It shouldn't be too scary, and you should get used to it. You will be doing this a lot more in the future if you want to further your reach in this wonderful hobby.
It sounds less scarier then it was before you explained it and thank you for doing that . And I want to make a business on doing these type of things so it looks like I must do this.
Ok the motor is unplugged now. Took a little bit but we’re all good.
Is that really bare wire at the connector? If those two touch, it would likely take out the reverse board!
AmeenTrainGuy posted:Yeah, those wires cannot stay like that. That could be the reason why the thing is not running.
That’s how they came in thought connected like that
gunrunnerjohn posted:Is that really bare wire at the connector? If those two touch, it would likely take out the reverse board!
I don’t understand what you guys mean it came in like that when I got it 12 years ago. Nice to finally meet you buy the way I’m a subscriber of your YouTube
AmeenTrainGuy posted:See how the insulation is stripped from the wire at the bottom? That's quite dangerous to the board and the motor. It could be the reason why it's malfunctioning.
You mean they black and red covering in between the wire? Then yes
How do I cover them so no more Damage is being done?
(sorry I’m editing so much)
AmeenTrainGuy posted:See how the insulation is stripped from the wire towards the plug? That's quite dangerous to the board and the motor. It could be the reason why it's malfunctioning. If it's been like this for 12 years, that's most likely why your engine stopped working.
Oh maybe when it got burnt it must of ate away at some of the wires, you remember when I said that my train was burnt?
AmeenTrainGuy posted:I would replace the whole wire and plug assembly. That requires some electrical proficiency though. For now, try to cover at least one of them with tape. Test it first though before you apply this fix so that we can determine if the motor is dead.
Understood. First I will grab some lunch than I will get the 9v.
AmeenTrainGuy posted:TheRoyalHudson988 posted:AmeenTrainGuy posted:See how the insulation is stripped from the wire towards the plug? That's quite dangerous to the board and the motor. It could be the reason why it's malfunctioning. If it's been like this for 12 years, that's most likely why your engine stopped working.
Oh maybe when it got burnt it must of ate away at some of the wires, you remember when I said that my train was burnt?
Unlikely, I don't see any wire residue. The copper itself would be burnt if the insulation melted off. It looks like the plug was stripped while it was being unplugged since both of the wires are stripped.
I mean it could have been from the people who use to fix my train they could stripped the wire for something. I mean anything is possible.
It may have always been that way, but it needs to be fixed.
gunrunnerjohn posted:It may have always been that way, but it needs to be fixed.
Agreed
Ok I got electrical tape around the wires and some tape on top to hold it all together.
AmeenTrainGuy posted:Have you tested the motor yet?
About the motor it’s still attached to the engine how do I physically remove it without breaking it?
AmeenTrainGuy posted:Connect to wires to the 9v battery first. Then run those two wires to the motor wire/terminal.
Ok got my 9v so which wires do I connect it to
AmeenTrainGuy posted:Connect the two wires to the terminals on the battery. Each terminal gets one wire.
Ok what do you mean by the terminals like the wires on the plug or something else? I have my 9v and I just don’t know which wire.
AmeenTrainGuy posted:
Not my picture, but that's how it should look like. The color of the wire doesn't matter.
Which two wires do I use on my locomotive, is it the ones on the motor? I’m sorry I’m just a little confused
AmeenTrainGuy posted:I would get two wires, any wires you can put your hands on. From there, I would connect to the battery and then connect to the motor. It would look something like this:
Just without the black potentiometer. Again not my photo.
Oh so I just need a random wire from anywhere
AmeenTrainGuy posted:Just without the black potentiometer. Again not my photo.
Actually, that looks like a fuse holder.
so this week or the next I’ll buy some loose wires but do you have anything to recommend me a type of wire that can work with this
Yikes! For model train work, the internal wiring is typically #22, #12 wire is pretty difficult to work with.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Yikes! For model train work, the internal wiring is typically #22, #12 wire is pretty difficult to work with.
So which one should I use
22g or larger.
Too small of a wire gauge will risk overheating from excessive current.
There are not a lot of concerns with oversized wires; consider larger to be "safer" 99% of the time. (signal/sound reproduction it becomes more relevant).
fyi, I have dropped my net service because NO provider can get a decent signal to me all of a sudden; I will check in when I can though
Terminals are the metal tabs that wires connect to.
Any "random wire" sounds scary; it needs more context.
Disconnect one or more of the motor wires. This isolates the motor from board.
Now jump power to the 2 motor terminals using 22g or larger wire....or jump with a butter knife, screwdriver, or other metal if you have no wire.
Positive or neg. to which motor tab?; it wont matter. Reversing +/- just changes direction of motor here. Test both directions
So should I get them with alligator clips also so it makes things easier
Ok
Is #22 wire thick or thin
#22 is thin. If you send me your address, I will send you a pair of wires with alligator clips. Then you can follow Ameen's good advice.
GAmeenTrainGuy posted:TheRoyalHudson988 posted:So should I get them with alligator clips also so it makes things easier
Preferably.
Got the wire just no alligator clips
John H posted:#22 is thin. If you send me your address, I will send you a pair of wires with alligator clips. Then you can follow Ameen's good advice.
Well I have this if that’s good enough
OK. An auto parts store should have clips.
It’s fine guys I found my own alligator clips so I’m ready to test now. It’s gonna be a lot easier too
Like this? Just making sure I’m safe.
Ok then just do it like this also for the 9v
AmeenTrainGuy posted:Yes, that's good enough. Make sure those two clips don't touch. Now connect those two wires coming from the battery over to the motor and see wether it runs. Make sure the locomotive is on the rollers that you bought.
Ok
I can connect the 9v and get that running but I don’t know where to connect the motor to. When I put the alligator clips on the motor I don’t get any type of response from it. I tried putting it on the metal part but nothing happened.
Ok I’ll see if I can
I got it all connected and it tested pretty good.😃👍 and yes this is my home video just in case. This is not copy right. Enjoy the video.
AmeenTrainGuy posted:TheRoyalHudson988 posted:I got it all connected and it tested pretty good.😃👍 and yes this is my home video just in case. This is not copy right. Enjoy the video.
Excellent!
This is the result of the test is that correct? If the motor runs fine on the battery, then the board has been blown, specifically that burnt out piece we spoke about earlier. I would purchase a new board if that is the case and get it running.
Yes this is the test. Can we replace the burnt out piece on the board? Just so I can keep this unit as back up just in case this happens again?
Truthfully, if that part burnt out, it's quite possible that more damage has been done. For a $30 board, it's not really cost effective to start troubleshooting when they go up in smoke. If it's a clearly identifiable failure, like R2LC lighting and smoke triacs, then parts replacement is realistic as you know specifically which part you need to replace, and it's unlikely other parts will also require replacement.
gunrunnerjohn posted:Truthfully, if that part burnt out, it's quite possible that more damage has been done. For a $30 board, it's not really cost effective to start troubleshooting when they go up in smoke. If it's a clearly identifiable failure, like R2LC lighting and smoke triacs, then parts replacement is realistic as you know specifically which part you need to replace, and it's unlikely other parts will also require replacement.
Ok then, I’ll just buy a new one. Trainz.com has one for about $23.
Sounds like a plan.
I have other great news also, I’m getting my first tmcc train by next week. It’s a Lionel mikado NYC 1843. Best of all it runs on conventional too so I can operate it like that while I get everything set up
ALL TMCC locos run in conventional if there is no command base/signal present. The only Lionel locos that do not run in conventional are the first LionChief locos - before LionChief Plus. The Plus meant that it would run in conventional. There may be more to the Plus designation than that.
A lot more to LC+, cruise control, better sound, fan driven smoke, etc.
gunrunnerjohn posted:A lot more to LC+, cruise control, better sound, fan driven smoke, etc.
I seen what your units can do to a train I’m getting that stuff when I get everything set up. I can have the best smoke unit and the slowest crawl ever.
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