Now comes the F3 from 3rd Rail

IDK, The F3 has been done nearly to death from plastic to brass from scale to semi- scale. I hope they get the PRR version correct with the OEM small number board and marker light combo on the nose!

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

IDK, The Fe has been done nearly to death from plastic to brass from scale to semi- scale. I hope they get the PRR version correct with the OEM small number board and marker light combo on the nose!

Maybe SOMEDAY you'll get it, that those are CLASS LIGHTS on the front of locomotives!

 

I am excited by this notice.  It's nice that is finally out in the public.  We've discussed it for a while.  I am interested because nearly all my PRR is basically Sunset / 3RD rail these days and adding an AB set to the collection will allow me to mix FP7s, F7s and F3s to build larger consists. 

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

IDK, The F3 has been done nearly to death from plastic to brass from scale to semi- scale.

At least these will have a quality drive and hopefully better road specific details.

GG1 4877 posted:

I am excited by this notice.  It's nice that is finally out in the public.  We've discussed it for a while.  I am interested because nearly all my PRR is basically Sunset / 3RD rail these days and adding an AB set to the collection will allow me to mix FP7s, F7s and F3s to build larger consists. 

Now if only we could get an FP7 rerun.  I was not able to purchase any last time and, like most #rd Rail diesel offerings, they are next to impossible to find on the used market.

I would like to see the Northern Pacific F3 in the pre-1954 passenger scheme.  Those were almost always run in an ABB formation, as I understand it, which makes for a nice continuous line on the "butter knife" with the passenger cars (hopefully the GGD North Coast Limited will be done in this scheme eventually).

The post-1954 scheme is nice, but it has been done to death, just my opinion, of course.  The original pre-1954 scheme has not been done on an F3 in O scale, as far as I know.  MTH did some F7 a few years ago, but they were really poorly done, the colors were way off and they were sold only as an ABA set.

ecd15 posted:

GG1 4877 posted:

I am excited by this notice.  It's nice that is finally out in the public.  We've discussed it for a while.  I am interested because nearly all my PRR is basically Sunset / 3RD rail these days and adding an AB set to the collection will allow me to mix FP7s, F7s and F3s to build larger consists. 

Now if only we could get an FP7 rerun.  I was not able to purchase any last time and, like most #rd Rail diesel offerings, they are next to impossible to find on the used market.

Are you looking for a 2 or 3 rail FP7?  I believe Scott has some 2 rail units that were returns that he never resold.  They are DGLE as I understand.

GG1 4877 posted:

ecd15 posted:

GG1 4877 posted:

I am excited by this notice.  It's nice that is finally out in the public.  We've discussed it for a while.  I am interested because nearly all my PRR is basically Sunset / 3RD rail these days and adding an AB set to the collection will allow me to mix FP7s, F7s and F3s to build larger consists. 

Now if only we could get an FP7 rerun.  I was not able to purchase any last time and, like most #rd Rail diesel offerings, they are next to impossible to find on the used market.

Are you looking for a 2 or 3 rail FP7?  I believe Scott has some 2 rail units that were returns that he never resold.  They are DGLE as I understand.

I would be interested in 2 rail units, but I am looking for SP units, not PRR.

ecd15 posted:

I would be interested in 2 rail units, but I am looking for SP units, not PRR.

Bob,

Shoot.  Yes, there aren't any SP ones available for sure.  However, a second run may be possible down the road.  You never know when it makes sense to do a small run of 300 or so units to fill in for another similar model.  Can't say when that might be though.  That's Scott's decision.

PRR with the OEM numberboards and class lights would be nice. I am still a bit confused on the 3rd Rail offerings as far as fixed pilots and Kadees. Do they come with everything like Atlas or do you have to order separately?

You can be pretty certain that they will come with the OEM numberboards and class lights.  Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think class lights or numberboards were one of the "betterments" done to the F3s. 

As to how they are offered, they come with a fixed pilot screwed to the body.  The three rail version has a larger opening for the claw.  The 2 rail versions have a scale opening for the Kadee coupler.  Since these are brass castings, the fully scale pilot is a separate order item for the 3 rail locomotive. 

OK thx Jonathan. Is there a link yet?

Norm Charbonneau posted:

OK thx Jonathan. Is there a link yet?

http://www.3rdrail.com/reservation.htm

First item in the list this time!

Tough being the modeler of a geographically small railroad. LOL

Hopefully 3rd Rail will do a SD7/9 re-issue ..... in Conrail. The possibility of which was casually mentioned. I can now save my nickels for two of those. lol

Enjoy your new F3's everybody .... I bet they will be sweet, and worth the wait!

What colors will the ACL and Southern units be produced? Looked on your website and it just had a listing of roads available. 

Has anyone operated these in a consist (or lashup) with Lionel or MTH? 

Maybe I will bite the bullet this time for a single A unit.

The Phase IV was really an F5 (for some roads) which closely resembled the F7 from the exterior. It would be nice for 3rd Rail to make a Phase I F3 (same carbody as F2 with improved traction motors) since it would be easy to "fake" an F2 for some roads. 

Any possibilities?

Larry Neal posted:

The Phase IV was really an F5 (for some roads) which closely resembled the F7 from the exterior. It would be nice for 3rd Rail to make a Phase I F3 (same carbody as F2 with improved traction motors) since it would be easy to "fake" an F2 for some roads. 

Any possibilities?

An EXCELLENT suggestion. Especially since the CB&Q quickly discovered that an A-B-B-A consist of FT units was just a bit too much power for their needs. Thus, the CB&Q purchased A-A pairs of F2A units, and then split the FT sets in half, using an F2A on the "other end", making an FT A-B (drawbared together) plus and F2A.

Is it correct that the WP only had the passenger version F3's?  I will be in for a WP F3B unit to run with my FP7. 

When will 3rd Rail get around to F9's???

Do let me know if 3rd Rail contemplates this F3

mwb posted:

Do let me know if 3rd Rail contemplates this F3

Well THAT sure isn't an Electro-Motive product!

Looking forward to seeing how the NYC f3 come out

What's the demo F3 look like? There is the fancy one that mth did for their first F3 and

there is the two tone grey scheme that Atlas O did for their Golden Spike club. 

I wish there was some leftover 3 rail FP7 for the PRR. I would take either scheme!

As-built paint for Phase IV F3's for Southern is the green/yellow, (I believe units 4173-4206).

All SOU Phase IV had the big numberboards (not FT-style) and FARR SS grilles. 

I'm guessing since in general, an EMD Phase IV F3 almost looks identical (minus the grids?) to F7's, it's an easy tool modification (if at all) for Scott to offer these late F3's. For Southern at least…basically buying an F7 with F3 road numbers.

If Scott decides to offer the Black Tux Scheme with all of the spotting features below, I could be persuaded to get some. 

Black Tux spotting features includes:

• M5 horn and Firecracker antenna (put it in the box)
• dynamic brake fan near cab
• maintenance walkway on side/grab irons on the nose,
• de-skirted fuel tanks
• Rooftop Cooling Coils, much easier to make than the E8 air tanks (Unfortunately the F3A's with rooftop air tanks are an earlier phase..Phase II early with the chicken wire and other fun stuff.

Will these have fixed pilots

I emailed Scott earlier. He will be adding the SF Freight "Cat  whiskers" scheme. 

 

Which GRAND TRUNK WESTERN scheme do they have planned? 

The 1940's scheme, The 1950's scheme, the 1960's scheme? 

I have to wait for the artwork. 

Andrew

If 3rd Rail is going to do only the Phase IV F3, I may have to pass.  I would want to run an ABA set, but the Pennsy did not buy any Phase IV B units.  The one picture I've seen with a Phase IV F3A (stainless steel grill) had a Phase II (Late) or Phase III B unit with the chicken wire grill. I guess I could say the B-unit is an F5 (or Phase V) since externally they are the same as the Phase IV.  I personally would have preferred an earlier Phase with the chicken wire so it would not look so much like an F7.

Also, the picture of the Santa Fe F3s on 3rd Rail's reservation page, aren't those Phase III engines?  They still have the chicken wire in the top panel plus the four louvers between the two portholes.

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

I wish there was some leftover 3 rail FP7 for the PRR. I would take either scheme!

I know this is off topic but would you have any interest in a A-A set of G scale MTH F-3 PRR's? (I thought they were F7s, so I looked it up at MTH).

They just sit here on my shelf.

I couldn't resist asking.

https://mthtrains.com/70-2007-1

 

I know this is off topic but would you have any interest in a A-A set of G scale MTH F-3 PRR's?

Sorry but no.  That would be a dangerous slippery slope for me!

Originally posted by MWB:

Do let me know if 3rd Rail contemplates this F3:

I would be in for one TOO!

 

Many roads had F3s.  I hope that 3rd Rail can do some roads that haven't been done by Atlas/MTH/Lionel.  I would be in for some Maine Central units!  Prefer the green/gold scheme, but the maroon and gold would get me to open my wallet, too.

MR-150 posted:

Will these have fixed pilots

Yes. All Sunset/3rd Rail diesel models have fixed pilots, even the 3-Rail models. However, for 3-Rail models, Sunset/3rd Rail also offers a more scale appearing front pilot, without the big opening for the "claw", so that a Kadee coupler can be installed. That scale front pilot may be ordered separately.

The SOO LINE had 6 Phase IV A units and 1 Phase IV B units delivered in 1948.

If I were to get the SOO LINE it would have to be the 1960's era red & white paint scheme with the large SOO in extended bold Venus.

Andrew 

I can not decide on the GRAND TRUNK WESTERN F3 Phase IV models if I do not know what paint scheme they are producing. 

 

Would Rich Trowbridge be interested in the Grand Trunk Western F3/F5 models? 

Andrew

Keep in mind that this is simply a product announcement.  Details such as paint schemes, what phases will be produced, and road specific details will emerge.

As always with 3rd Rail projects, all of your input is critical to the success of the project.  Everything is in flux to start to dial in what the customer wants.  The, much like the E7 had many variations due to it being a transitional model between the FT and the F7.  It is reasonable to think that many of the variations can be captured in the models. 

In the meantime, all the input is greatly appreciated!

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Originally posted by MWB:

Do let me know if 3rd Rail contemplates this F3:

I would be in for one TOO!

 

Sheesh.

The model was imported by GEM many moons ago, and shows up on eBay fairly often, for a reasonable price. Add DCC and some improvements and there you go.

However, the F-3 another little engine with lower appeal vs. price, so I expect Sunset will avoid it.

GG1 4877 posted:

Keep in mind that this is simply a product announcement.  Details such as paint schemes, what phases will be produced, and road specific details will emerge.

As always with 3rd Rail projects, all of your input is critical to the success of the project.  Everything is in flux to start to dial in what the customer wants.  The, much like the E7 had many variations due to it being a transitional model between the FT and the F7.  It is reasonable to think that many of the variations can be captured in the models. 

In the meantime, all the input is greatly appreciated!

Jonathon,

You are right that 3rd Rail does many road variations of its engines, which is greatly appreciated by all.  For the F3 their web site specifically states they are making the Phase IV version (which could also be an F5 or early F7).  In an earlier post, someone mentioned this is probably because it is very similar to their recently release F7 so a lot of the molds can be reused.  This is good business.

It will be interesting to see if 3rd Rail releases any earlier phases with the chicken wire along the top.  That is when I will get excited.  Right now I've been waiting for Atlas to release their F3 Phase II in Pennsy as delivered colors, which at this rate they may never do.  Even if Atlas did, I would prefer a Phase II or III from 3rd Rail over Atlas. 

I guess I can hold out hope for a Phase III from 3rd Rail since that is the picture they show on their reservation web site.

Ron,

We are in the process of discussing the project now that the announcement is out.  There is a lot to discuss and these projects do evolve once we dive into details.  Look for more detail soon!

DaveJfr0 posted:

As-built paint for Phase IV F3's for Southern is the green/yellow, (I believe units 4173-4206).

All SOU Phase IV had the big numberboards (not FT-style) and FARR SS grilles. 

I'm guessing since in general, an EMD Phase IV F3 almost looks identical (minus the grids?) to F7's, it's an easy tool modification (if at all) for Scott to offer these late F3's. For Southern at least…basically buying an F7 with F3 road numbers.

If Scott decides to offer the Black Tux Scheme with all of the spotting features below, I could be persuaded to get some. 

Black Tux spotting features includes:

• M5 horn and Firecracker antenna (put it in the box)
• dynamic brake fan near cab
• maintenance walkway on side/grab irons on the nose,
• de-skirted fuel tanks
• Rooftop Cooling Coils, much easier to make than the E8 air tanks (Unfortunately the F3A's with rooftop air tanks are an earlier phase..Phase II early with the chicken wire and other fun stuff.

Several (if not all) Southern F3 units were rebuilt to F7 specifications during the early to mid 1950s at Spencer Shops. Some of these passenger F3s were rebuilt to have their air tanks moved to the roof and a larger water tank mounted beside the fuel tank. Because of this, they looked liked a F7 from the outside, sans the stainless steel FARR grilles. If any were Phase II with the chicken wire, they were changed to the F7 vent style between the portholes. I have never seen an image showing a Southern unit as delivered showing the chicken wire, but Intermountain made them in black a few years ago for HO modelers.

The best way to model a Southern unit with air tanks using a Phase IV body would be F7 6119. Not sure when the tanks were installed, but it would be very close to the actual unit.

I have included some images found on the net to show what Southern F units looked like with roof air tanks.

I noticed 3rd Rail listed Seaboard Air Line. They purchased F3 Phase II units with the chicken wire. I think one unit was wrecked, but not sure what phase body was used to replace the unit. Usually it was the F9 body style, totally different from a F3 Phase IV. 

As for the Atlantic Coast Line, their F3s were numbered 336 - 347. They previously bought F2s, numbered 324 - 335. they bought these F3s in 1948, and started buying F7s by 1950. Looked identical except the number series. I will have to check further tonight when I can look over my reference books.

Larry Neal posted:

DaveJfr0 posted:

As-built paint for Phase IV F3's for Southern is the green/yellow, (I believe units 4173-4206).

All SOU Phase IV had the big numberboards (not FT-style) and FARR SS grilles. 

I'm guessing since in general, an EMD Phase IV F3 almost looks identical (minus the grids?) to F7's, it's an easy tool modification (if at all) for Scott to offer these late F3's. For Southern at least…basically buying an F7 with F3 road numbers.

If Scott decides to offer the Black Tux Scheme with all of the spotting features below, I could be persuaded to get some. 

Black Tux spotting features includes:

• M5 horn and Firecracker antenna (put it in the box)
• dynamic brake fan near cab
• maintenance walkway on side/grab irons on the nose,
• de-skirted fuel tanks
• Rooftop Cooling Coils, much easier to make than the E8 air tanks (Unfortunately the F3A's with rooftop air tanks are an earlier phase..Phase II early with the chicken wire and other fun stuff.

Several (if not all) Southern F3 units were rebuilt to F7 specifications during the early to mid 1950s at Spencer Shops. Some of these passenger F3s were rebuilt to have their air tanks moved to the roof and a larger water tank mounted beside the fuel tank. Because of this, they looked liked a F7 from the outside, sans the stainless steel FARR grilles. If any were Phase II with the chicken wire, they were changed to the F7 vent style between the portholes. I have never seen an image showing a Southern unit as delivered showing the chicken wire, but Intermountain made them in black a few years ago for HO modelers.

The best way to model a Southern unit with air tanks using a Phase IV body would be F7 6119. Not sure when the tanks were installed, but it would be very close to the actual unit.

I have included some images found on the net to show what Southern F units looked like with roof air tanks.

I was using my Withers SOU Diesel book exclusively with the info and 20ish pictures to do preliminary research for myself. Yes, all were rebuilt to F7 specs on the inside, but a lot of the Phase II units still retained chickenwire, etc.  Phase IV never had chicken wire from photo evidence I have (ATSF spec sheets for their own units I quickly read online also agree) , but earlier F3 phase units did and retained them for the most part, depending on unit. The book has photos of as-delivered or close to as-delivered paint with the chicken wire, etc, but again those are not Phase IV units. The Phase IV  units (late 1948+) came delivered with the stainless.

As for modeling the rooftop air tanks, I'd need to go look at other photos not in the book. I didn't want to spend much time on this until Scott and his team shore up what they plan on doing.  #6119 might be it for tanks, but since Scott's builder tries to minimize differences on units, all built models would need the tanks...not sure if there are any other numbers out there with the tanks (I think 6119 was a specil unit, I'd have to read the roster notes again). The F3's seem to be the mostly widely-varied when it comes to unit detailing.

IIRC, rooftop tanks for some units came around 1956, but that might have been the fuel-tank deskirting. I'd have to check my book again, but its not with me at this time.  In any case, I'll wait and see what Scott and his design team decide for phase and go from there.

Note to other SOU modelers, the coils are not the same as rooftop air tanks.  I have modeled those on my MTH F7 units already.

In any case, we will have the green vs. black debate on what to do for these units or offer both and see which one makes it to 20 first.

In any case, I may just wait and do what I was originally thinking to model the chickenwire F3's (to get variety in my F unit fleet), get some AtlasO Phase II F3's and do some heavy modifications to get them where they need to be, though I don't like the thought of super-detailing/modding 4 F3A units.  I am kind of thinking I want 4 F3A units and 2 F3B units to mix into various freight consists, but I am in no rush, I have so many other projects to get off my workbench first. Off the top of my head, I have 2 SD35s, 2 GP35s, S12, RS1, RS3, Some Geeps, 3 or so SW9's, a 44T, 2 SD45's, and 2 GP30's...all sitting in various states of taken-apart-ness on my workbench that I need to finish before I contemplate any more serious locomotive detailing projects. Oh and I forgot, I have a bit of detailing work to do on my 3 SOU E8's too.  Maybe I'll finish all of that by the end of 2020...we'll see. My SD9's have been apart since I got them and I finally found the time to finish all the detailing/weathering.  Hope to have them back together and running in a week or two, with or without them fuel breather pipes.

Also, IIRC, AtlasO cancelled their SAL F3's...so yea, guess those are not going to sell.

David,

I think we are on the same page, just talking about different chicken wire. You are referring to the wire for the intake grills below the roof, which did remain. What I referred to in my post was the chicken wire found on Phase II units between the two portholes, which I am not sure Southern ever had any (but Intermountain modeled). I have that book too, and also check southern.railfan.net for additional images as well. 

It would be nice for 3rd Rail to make Southern F3s after the 1950s era rebuilds, but not sure if the market would generate 20 - 30 orders. Maybe he could look at making a standard Southern F3 Phase IV (F7 clone) and an F3 with the roof tanks as an AA pair. Would definitely be a one of a kind set!

Larry,

Yep same page.  Yes the chicken wire between the portholes...I would need to look at some more photos again, but I also don't think they existed.  When I mentioned heavily modifying the AtlasO units, filling that area in with styrene and correct louvers would be part of the heavy modifications I don't really want to do.  In either case, I have too much to work on to even contemplate that work at this time. I am not sure if the E8 tanks are the same as the F3 tanks, but that would be interesting to know.

Jonathan,

Please, please make a note to make sure the pointed roof overhangs are corrected on the F-3's , especially the "B" units, as they were incorrect on both the FT's an F-7's for most roads.  Understand the reasoning behind going with the phase IV, as the most major change from the F7 shell would be chicken wire instead of stainless farr grills. Early phases with full chicken wire down over the portholes would be great if possible. 

BH

Scott and I have chatted a bit and the phase IV is not necessarily set in stone.  There should be some images going up on the website very soon of each road name for everyone's consideration and thoughtful criticism.  As always these are a work in progress until it goes into full design.

Jonathan - cool.  Depending on Phase, and units models modeled (I know site says green, but if Scott gets enough requests for black, and maybe w/ or w/o rooftop air tanks), then I am in for 4 A's and 2 B's.

For The Grand Trunk Western the choice should be the 1960's era diagonal stripe scheme. 

 

 

Andrew

 

 

How many months before more details are released?

Details should be forthcoming by the end of the month.  With PAs in production, the research on the F3s still needs to be completed.  Of all of the F-units, this one will be the hardest to figure out as there were so many variations beyond even the so-called 5 phases of production.  Compiling that information across all the proposed road names and then determining what is feasible versus what is not in a single production run is a huge endeavor. 

Need to correct the shape of windshield and headlight. Look at Athearn newest F-units based upon Highliner tooling

Interested in a C&NW, depending upon the paint scheme.  No to "Zito yellow/safety yellow/pantone 102c/etc." or whatever the terrible yellow was that Lionel used on their last F7's.  Yes to a traditional yellow/green scheme to match the MTH/K-line bi-level cars...

Uh Rex, the gem models f3 is very difficult to convert to three rail. 

They have posted artwork for some of the roads.  I was going to order Chicago Great Western A and B units.  Unfortunately I have no interest in what is shown.  Was hoping for the as delivered paint scheme. 

Send me some photos of the scheme you are looking for.  This project is still fluid on design decisions.  PAs are the focus now.  My email is in my profile.

 

I was hoping we would see the SF freight "cat whiskers" scheme. 

Was hoping for something closer to this scheme:"

Vs

I'll probably be passing.  

As I mentioned earlier, I'm looking for an ABA set with at least two powered units and all with sound.  To meet my sound requirement will probably require buying three powered units which is OK.

There is no current production PRR F3 set.  The last one done by Lionel was in 2005 and with only one TMCC/powered A unit.  MTH did a PS-2 ABA in 2006 with two powered units but only the lead A with sound.  Atlas did not do a PRR with their F3 releases.  It seems like the market could use a PRR set with modern electronics.

As Jonathan stated, there is a lot of F3 variants and I'm not sure if the PRR's variants matched up with other roads.  What I know I would buy is an F3 ABA set with full chicken wire at top third panel to distinguish it from an F7.  Not knowing GGD's strategy, the Phase III seems to be a good choice because they may be able to use a modified F7 tooling with the four horizontal louvers and low pan top of the F7 body.  A Phase II (late) with low pan tops but replacing the louvers with chicken wire might also be doable, and would be preferred by me.  The paint scheme needs to be as delivered as shown below.

 

Jonathan Peiffer

E-mail has been sent.  Thanks

Again notice the PRR OEM Numberboard/class light bezel that has yet to be done in o gauge correctly. NONE of the MTH and Lionel Scale PRR F3's have made them with the correct OEM Numberboard/classlight bezel. 

Apparently these are too pricey for Rich Trowbridge. He has not made any comments or requests for the Grand Trunk Western F3/F5 from 3rd Rail. 

Andrew

Note the straight "passenger" pilot on the PRR F3 in the photo.  With the exception of a handful of  initial order F3 and E7 A units, follow on orders by the PRR for F3, F7, FP7, E7, and E8  A units specified straight pilots equipped with coupler shrouds.  Coupler shrouds were removed in the 1955/6 time frame. With the many detail and lettering variations/modifications on PRR F units over the years, IMO the only way to achieve a reasonable degree of prototype accuracy is to first pick the batch being modeled, and then adjust the details to the time frame being modeled using dated photos.   Fortunately a wealth of information on PRR F units can be found in a lengthy 2 volume article in the PRRT&HS's The Keystone several years ago.

The GN Man posted:

Is it correct that the WP only had the passenger version F3's?  I will be in for a WP F3B unit to run with my FP7. 

Yes, you are correct.  WP bought A-B-B F3's for passenger service only. 

However, the Sacramento Northern, WP's former interurban subsidiary, bought three F3A's from the New York, Ontario & Western when the NYO&W went bankrupt in 1957.  One of those was transferred to WP and renumbered 801-D, a passenger unit.  The other pair of F3A's worked in freight service on Sacramento Northern, wearing WP colors and SN lettering.  SN, like other dieselized interurbans, was not a fast freight railroad.

Keystoned Ed posted:

Note the straight "passenger" pilot on the PRR F3 in the photo.  With the exception of a handful of  initial order F3 and E7 A units, follow on orders by the PRR for F3, F7, FP7, E7, and E8  A units specified straight pilots equipped with coupler shrouds.  Coupler shrouds were removed in the 1955/6 time frame. With the many detail and lettering variations/modifications on PRR F units over the years, IMO the only way to achieve a reasonable degree of prototype accuracy is to first pick the batch being modeled, and then adjust the details to the time frame being modeled using dated photos.   Fortunately a wealth of information on PRR F units can be found in a lengthy 2 volume article in the PRRT&HS's The Keystone several years ago.

All PRR F3's except 9518 and 9519 had the so called "passenger" straight pilots. 9518 and 9519 had "freight" style pilots. ALL PRR F3's had STREAMLINED number boards. Road numbers 9500 through 9505 had high fans. The only F's that I am aware of that came without coupler doors (shrouds if you like) were 9518 and 9519 which were (for a time) equipped with shop made coupler doors. 9518 and 9519 were ordered for pusher service on the CURVE. Other than those two engines, ALL PRR F's (3's and 7's) came from EMD with straight pilots and coupler doors. ALL F7's had the large 45 degree number boards.

HINT: ALL the info you need to know is in the 2 issues of the Keystone that Ed mentions above. Maybe you should contact the PRR T&HS

Simon

 Do 9500 thru 9505 AS BUILT in BRASS, and I'm IN! LOL

 

I'm a member of the PRRT&HS and have both Keystone issues relating to the F3 and F7.  Great organization and a great publication. 

Thanks to those who supplied photos of the various schemes so far!

Thanks Bigjohn for suggesting the SF freight livery.  I model PRR but I've liked the look of the SF freight F units since I was a kid in the late '60s, enough that I reserved a couple of these.

 

My Atlas Q  F3 was a lot of work, I sure Scott will bring you a fantastic rendition. 

 

Received an email from 3rd Rail stating they had details on their web page for the F3.  Checked it out and they are going to produce the Phase IV.  To me the Phase IV looks too much like the F7, so I'm going to pass on this one.  Nice looking engine, though.  Hope they do a Phase III (or earlier) in the future.

Interesting! All Powered units for the F3's. NO dummy units. I see on the website the PRR is being pictured with the 45 degree large number boards! Say it ain't so Otherwise I will have to withdraw my order.

Because the F3 phase IV is so close in looks to the F-7 (Farr Grills and shared details) it would be a natural to do and not require any new tooling.  But, for this reason, I don't think it will sell as well as the F-7's. 

 

BH

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Interesting! All Powered units for the F3's. NO dummy units. I see on the website the PRR is being pictured with the 45 degree large number boards! Say it ain't so Otherwise I will have to withdraw my order.

You are correct, ALL PRR F3's had the smaller streamlined number boards!

Simon

Again, no research has truly started on the F3s.  Phases are still to be determined along with a design matrix to see how to capture accurately the most amount of road names without compromising on prototype fidelity while meeting the design and construction budget.  We should have a better idea of the scope of the project sometime late November maybe?

For PRR, there will be the original number boards.  As you may recall from the E7 project, the DGLE as delivered E7s had the small number boards while the Tuscan versions had large number boards.  Granted they were not the offset number board actually used by PRR, but the Tucsan PA's will have the correct type of number board. 

As always, contributions to the data base of information are always welcome.  My email address is in my profile.

 

Originally from GG1 4877:

Granted they were not the offset number board actually used by PRR, but the Tucsan PA's will have the correct type
of number board.

That's Ok, Bill Davis of American Scale Models has the correct Offset Number board bugeye Marker light combo that can easily fix those E7's!

http://americanscalemodels.com/O?product_id=2163

Here are pics I pulled off Da Bay of an O scale Phase III PRR F3

I think I got this data from one of the Mainline Modeler magazines:

Phase I..January 1945 to June 1947 Same as a F2..small combination numberboards/class lights; 3 portholes and no filters in the middle side course; tall fans; chicken wire screening in three pieces on the upper side course.

Phase II..June 1947 to June 1948 large numberboards; tall fans/countersunk low fans optional; two portholes, center porthole eliminated and substituted with four horizontally slotted air filters between them; larger openings at the rear of the upper course; chicken wire screening covering the upper course and the entire area between the portholes in the middle course.

Phase III..June 1948 to February 1949 large numberboards; Countersunk fans with grill type openings;two portholes with four horizontally slotted air filters sets between them;chicken wire covering the entire upper course only.

Phase IV..August 1948 to February 1949 same as Phase III with a fabricated horizontal stainless steel grill covering the upper course; two portholes with four horizontally slotted air filters sets between them; These were equipped with F7 traction motors and are sometimes referred to as F5's.

Here's SAL 4027:

and SAL 4030:

Fans and filters are the most prominent differences I see.

William McClure's "Atlantic Coast Line In Color" book has a beautiful photo of purple F3A 344 (phase IV) on page 34.  On page 35 there's a color photo of F7A 393, I can't see any external differences between it and F3A 344, except maybe the horns and the color swap on the nose medallion.

Bob Delbridge posted:

I think I got this data from one of the Mainline Modeler magazines:

Phase IV..August 1948 to February 1949 same as Phase III with a fabricated horizontal stainless steel grill covering the upper course; two portholes with four horizontally slotted air filters sets between them; These were equipped with F7 traction motors and are sometimes referred to as F5's.

Bob, Per a couple of sources I have it looks like the first Phase IV engines still had the D17 traction motors when they came out in Aug '48. In Oct '48 they got the D27 motors and became the "F5".  I don't think there is any external difference between the Phase IV and F5.

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

 

I really like the Phase II (early) engine.  Who made it?

645 posted:

CAPPilot posted:

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Here are pics I pulled off Da Bay of an O scale Phase III PRR F3

645,

I apologize. I did not look closely at the unpainted F3 to see that it is really a Phase II.  Must be in the wrong box.  I thought the painted one was a different model.  The paint really shows the center panel chicken wire between the two portholes while it is harder to see on the unpainted model.  However, the high, flat-top radiator fans should have tipped me off.

Thanks Ron!!!

Here's a photo by Wiley Bryan of ACL purple F3A 324 and F3B 324B:

BEAUTIFUL!!!

We still do not know if the Grand Trunk Western will be in the 1960's scheme.

Atlas O announced the GTW 1940's and 1950's scheme and will have it produced someday. 

Both companies can not do the same scheme so close together after all these years. We can only buy so many GTW F3 units before the paint schemes and numbers overlap. 

Andrew

I emailed Atlas on the GTW F3 paint scheme and they said it would be the Green/Yellow as per the second paint scheme.Were as the delivered version was Green/Gold

My guess is that The Canadian National and the Grand Trunk Western F3 A units will both be in the 1960's scheme. This will make the locomotives easier to mask. Change the nose logo from CN to GT and the number fonts are the same. 

Is that the plan? 

Andrew

Santa Fe blue freight F3's will have to be Phase IV, as ATSF only had two 4-unit locomotives,  200L-A-B-C and 201 L-A-B-C, both of which were built in late 1948 and had GE fabricated grilles.

I'm still waiting for 3rd Rail to tell us what phase they will be doing.

Why is the GTW Grand Trunk Western F3 A-unit the only one with NO artwork? 

Andrew

Scott Mann, Please tell us which version of the GRAND TRUNK WESTERN paint scheme has been chosen for the F3 A-Units. Thank you.

Number 90 posted:

Santa Fe blue freight F3's will have to be Phase IV, as ATSF only had two 4-unit locomotives...

Tom,

While Jonathan in the past alluded to the possibility of other phases, the lack of updates indicates to me there will only be Phase IV units, possibly re-using most of their F7 molds.

For me, I'm now pushing Atlas to reissue their Phase II units in PRR colors.

I can confirm: We are only producing Phase 4 and 5 so we can use our F7 tooling as a base. Earlier phases require completely new tools, too expensive for a short run. We will update the sides of the Loco to be accurate to these phases.

Please provide me a picture of the GTW you think is correct for these Phases of F3s. I am no expert in GTW. I will then post it on our web site.

Scott - China

 

Here is what I have found on the web about the GTW Phase 4 EMD F3 

GTW 9027

https://www.thedieselshop.us/Data%20EMD%20F5.HTML

GTW 9027 and GTW 9023

http://www.rrpicturearchives.n...ture.aspx?id=2087629

http://www.rrpicturearchives.n...ture.aspx?id=2087628

Grand Trunk Western diesel roster

https://www.thedieselshop.us/GTW.HTML

GTW 9016-9027 were built in September 1948

Andrew

 

The CN and GTW F3 A-units should be nearly identical. The numberboard fot should match the font on the side of the units.

The CN and GTW F3 A-units should be nearly identical. The numberboard font should match the number font on the side of the units.

Should I just order the Grand Trunk Western F3 A-unit and gamble on what I might get for a paint scheme. 

Andrew

GTW has been removed from the reservation list. We only got 1 order. Sorry

The following other roads were removed from the list as well. We will notify customers giving them the option to move their order to other roads, cancel or just let it sit for a possible run in the future. But frankly, when they don't get enough reservations in the first run, it's doubtful that it will be done in a second run.  Jonathan and I are working on better images of the remaining roads to give customers a better idea of what they are ordering.

GTW

MILW

SP&S

DEMO

MOPAC

Really, really trying to find a way to pay for these bad boys.  We still looking at early 2019 for delivery Scott?

Yes, F3s coming 2019 now.

Scott,

Can you tell me the road numbers for the ACL F3s and E6s. 

Thanks,

". . .working on better images of the remaining roads to give customers a better idea of what they are ordering."

Go ahead Scott,  go and show Lionel up by  showing us what we're ordering like the actual colors  . . .  

If you offered the SOO LINE F3 A and B units in the 1960's scheme then I would have to spend more dollars.

I'll be the first to admit we don't always get colors right, but we try to get it right very hard. We have a library of colors now, but even with that the factory goofs up, sometimes big time... If there is a mistake on a drawing that I don't catch, any corrections are on us.  So no one is showing anyone up. We just do what we do as good as we can.

I can tell you this, I don't forget when I make a mistake and pay the price with cancellations and flogging. I won't make the same mistake twice, but there are always new one's to deal with. Sucks being human.

We haven't decided the engine numbers for Es or Fs until we get down to the painting and lettering drawings. Some of the numbers are suggested by our customers. So if you have suggestions email them to me or Jonathan.

sdmann posted:

I can tell you this, I don't forget when I make a mistake and pay the price with cancellations and flogging. I won't make the same mistake twice, but there are always new one's to deal with. Sucks being human.

Maybe I can save you some grief on the PRR F3's.

All but 2 (9518 and 9519) had passenger style pilots. ALL PRR F3's had the smaller streamlined number boards. The first 6 A's (9500 thru 9505) had high fans, all others had low fans. All had only one horn from the factory. None had steam generators. The A's were factory equipped with coupler doors.

Don't say you weren't told!

Simon

PS: The single headlight is tilted slightly back toward the windshield, and is NOT vertical to the tracks. It pretty much follows the slope of the front of the nose going down toward the anti-climber.

Simon Winter posted:

All but 2 (9518 and 9519) has passenger style pilots. ALL PRR F3's had the smaller streamlined number boards. The first 6 A's (9500 thru 9505) had high fans, all others had low fans. All had only one horn from the factory. None had steam generators. The A's were factory equipped with coupler doors.

Simon,

3rd Rail is only doing the F3 Phase IV, and they plan to use as much of its F7 tooling as possible.  The photo of the PRR F3 on its web site shows the large number boards, but I assume the actual model will have the correct small, streamlined 4-digit boards.  For all roads, I also assume the F7's dynamic brake fan will be replaced by the F3's two rectangular screened exhaust vents.

AtlasO never released a PRR version of its F3 models.  I believe this was because of the PRR's streamlined number boards.  The cost of modifying the mold for one road was probably too high.  Hopefully 3rd Rail gets it's PRR version right for those who want this engine.

I am holding out for a correct F3 Phase II/III with the chicken wire.  Maybe someone will make this before I'm gone.

S

Since we are using our F7 tool as a base for our F3s, the headlight will be the same as our F7s, slightly tilted back. Drawing below is of the F7 nose.

Jonathan did provide me a matrix for F3s. The PRR is PHASE IV, with grills not chicken wire. And the number boards are the small FT style. Fans are low and there are to be antenna and other PRR specific details added such as lift rings and single horn.

Freight Pilot (SF style) shown.

The pilot in that drawing is a freight pilot and would be incorrect. Yeah, almost all PRR freight engines had the so called passenger pilots!

Simon

This may have been asked before, and I apologize if answered previously. Has anyone operated 3rd rail locomotives with Atlas, MTH or Lionel? I know the 3rd Rail models may be better in terms of detailing, but I am looking strictly at operation. Has anyone run 3rd rail in a consist with other manufacturers? MTH tethers might be a problem, though.

Larry Neal posted:

Has anyone operated 3rd rail locomotives with Atlas, MTH or Lionel? Has anyone run 3rd rail in a consist with other manufacturers? MTH tethers might be a problem, though.

I realize this is a diesel topic, but here is my experience with 3rd Rail steam.

Most of my 3rd Rail engines, all steam, have been upgraded with ERR so my experience may differ from others.  Basically, my 3rd Rail engines run at very different speeds from Lionel Legacy/TMCC engines for the same speed step.  I have not even been able to run different types of 3rd Rail engines together.

I have not tried running any Legacy or TMCC engine with a DCS PS2/3 engine.  Not even sure it would work.  Not sure what the tethers between MTH engines has to do with double heading/MU consist.

My only Atlas steamer is its switcher, which I have not tried double heading with anything.  My two Atlas diesels are AA and AB consists

Diesels may be easier to MU different manufacturers.

Ron, put you upgraded locos into 100 speed step mode. do thsi by pressing "AUX1 0, AUX1 0 BOOST". They are most likely in 32 speed step mode

sdmann posted:

GTW has been removed from the reservation list. We only got 1 order. Sorry

The following other roads were removed from the list as well. We will notify customers giving them the option to move their order to other roads, cancel or just let it sit for a possible run in the future. But frankly, when they don't get enough reservations in the first run, it's doubtful that it will be done in a second run.  Jonathan and I are working on better images of the remaining roads to give customers a better idea of what they are ordering.

GTW

MILW

SP&S

DEMO

MOPAC

Is there a similar update for the E6 roads?

Jtrain posted:

Is there a similar update for the E6 roads?

At this point, the E6 is moving forward with most of the runs.  The only one I know that isn't going forward is the Seafoam Green SAL units, but the Citrus scheme is moving forward.

We've been through a few rounds of QC on the base tooling drawings, the road specific detail matrix has been completed, and it's into painting diagrams soon. 

Better F3 images will be in Scott's hands by the weekend.  I promised!

Jtrain posted:

sdmann posted:

GTW has been removed from the reservation list. We only got 1 order. Sorry

The following other roads were removed from the list as well. We will notify customers giving them the option to move their order to other roads, cancel or just let it sit for a possible run in the future. But frankly, when they don't get enough reservations in the first run, it's doubtful that it will be done in a second run.  Jonathan and I are working on better images of the remaining roads to give customers a better idea of what they are ordering.

GTW

MILW

SP&S

DEMO

MOPAC

Is there a similar update for the E6 roads?

What is the cutoff date to order F3s? Have you met the number needed for the ACL units?

Matt,

All my TMCC engines are set to 32 speed steps to use the real railroad speeds (or whatever Lionel calls it).  However, when I tried to run engines together I tried both 32 speed step and 100 speed step settings.  Running my 3rd Rail L1 (factory ERR) with my K-Line scale L2 (ERR upgrade) their speeds were too different to run together.  I also tried running my 3rd Rail N1 (ERR upgrade) with the 3rd Rail L1 as well as Lionel TMCC scale Y3 (32 speed step only).  One was always noticeably faster than the other.  Different gearing?

I did run my early Atlas Erie Built (with TAS EOB upgrade) with my Weaver Passenger Sharks (factory TAS Cruise Commander), although not connected.  After adjusting the momentum on them, I got them fairly close but not close enough for me to try together.  I was concerned I might damage one of them.

Maybe I'm overly cautions, but unless the engines run very close to the same speed while not connected, I don't double head/MU them.

Simon Winter posted:

The pilot in that drawing is a freight pilot and would be incorrect. Yeah, almost all PRR freight engines had the so called passenger pilots!

Simon

We are aware that the pilot is not correct on the drawing.  That is not the F3 drawing that is specific to the PRR F3.  The slab pilot will be correct along with other PRR specific details. 

GG1 4877 posted:

Jtrain posted:

Is there a similar update for the E6 roads?

At this point, the E6 is moving forward with most of the runs.  The only one I know that isn't going forward is the Seafoam Green SAL units, but the Citrus scheme is moving forward.

We've been through a few rounds of QC on the base tooling drawings, the road specific detail matrix has been completed, and it's into painting diagrams soon. 

Better F3 images will be in Scott's hands by the weekend.  I promised!

Do you plan on using any train names on the ACL purple E6s? Thinking of The Champion, Tamiami Champion, Florida Special, or Vacationer. These were used during 40s before the E6s received mechanical and panel upgrades in early 50s. 

Would be great to see the 501 made with The Champion on the nose.

GG1 4877 posted:

Jtrain posted:

Is there a similar update for the E6 roads?

At this point, the E6 is moving forward with most of the runs.  The only one I know that isn't going forward is the Seafoam Green SAL units, but the Citrus scheme is moving forward.

We've been through a few rounds of QC on the base tooling drawings, the road specific detail matrix has been completed, and it's into painting diagrams soon. 

Better F3 images will be in Scott's hands by the weekend.  I promised!

Thanks Jonathan.  Will the SAL E6 Citrus be yellow roof (early) or green roof (late)?  Will the CB&Q E5 be black nose (early) or red nose (late) stripes?

SAL Citrus like this.

ACL Decals: Perhaps we can make decals for customers to customize themselves.

Scott

sdmann posted:

SAL Citrus like this.

ACL Decals: Perhaps we can make decals for customers to customize themselves.

Scott

Thanks!

Will the CB&Q E5 be black nose stripes (early) or red nose stripes (late)?

Thanks for bringing the ACL train names up and thanks Scott for finding a perfect solution. I have been waiting years for this E6 to be done accurately and I am now so close to that dream being fulfilled.Hope the ACL, SAL citrus, and the FEC make the reservation requirements.

Leon

Customer just emailed me about the E6 SAL, looks like we have enough reservations to do both SAL in Sea Foam and Citrus. Scott

sdmann posted:

Customer just emailed me about the E6 SAL, looks like we have enough reservations to do both SAL in Sea Foam and Citrus. Scott

While I am interested in the E6 too, I really wish the F3 was going to be made first.  Any chance of bumping the F3 production ahead of the E6?  😁

Jtrain posted:

sdmann posted:

Customer just emailed me about the E6 SAL, looks like we have enough reservations to do both SAL in Sea Foam and Citrus. Scott

While I am interested in the E6 too, I really wish the F3 was going to be made first.  Any chance of bumping the F3 production ahead of the E6?  😁

As the saying goes .... that train has already left the station!   It was pulled by an E6 in original Citrus scheme and an E5 in black stripes.

Will the Southern Green F3s use the same green paint from the F7 run? You are the only manufacturer to make correct green F units so far, and I am torn between ACL and Southern for an order.