Paint Creek Railroad

Vitto, no matter which one you choose it’s going to be good. I would lean towards the second one because you have access to the yard from either direction. However, there are folks far more talented than I who can give you viable suggestions.

You dont say what kind of operating that you do.  The layouts suggest that you are a looper and not into prototype operations.  As a looper I would suggest the second one, as you can have four trains ready to run on the loops and can then park them quickly without backing up.

I would choose the layout behind door number 2 for the reason that Jay gives.  I would place the "staging yard" below the main level of the layout and move the visible portion over top.

Jan

Looper? Door # 2

Operator? Door # 3 but add a connecting track between the two yards.

SCARM tip- you can save an image of the plan as a .bmp file instead of taking a screen shot. Looks like this.

Go to: file/ export/ save as

I think it is a correct assessment to say I'm a looper.  I have a special needs son and watching trains go around with some switching is what he likes.  I originally liked number 3 the best because it allowed the most track for the yard, but once I look at it closer, I see that it will be very tough to reach the far corner.  Even though number 2 reduces the yard space, it may be the most practical for us.  When I had my old layout, he really liked the drawbridge so that is very important to me and it is incorporated in all 3 plans.  I can do some tweaking to number 2 as I still have still to paint the room, add some lighting, and run some additional electrical before I even begin the benchwork.   Thank you for the replies and in regard to Jan's post, I don't understand your comment to place the "staging yard" below the main level of the layout and move the visible portion over top.  Please elaborate.

The left portion of the layout will be two levels with the staging tracks being on the lower level.  The track to the lower level will need to descend to the staging tracks.  The tracks to the upper level will need to climb.  You have 10 feet to get the necessary clearance between levels.  Eight inches between level tops (remember that there will be supporting structure, etc.)  will give you a 3.3% grade.  If you can start either grade sooner will be better.

The layout will have three different table heights.  Two, highest and lower, on the left and middle level on the far, far right.

If you post your SCARM files you'll likely get more suggestions and help.

Jan

Vitto, since you are in the planning stages I would suggest that you give some consideration to a backdrop for the walls. At the very least go with a shade of sky blue. On my walls I used Sherwin-Williams “cloudless “. Not knowing how old your son is I would contemplate his continued involvement as he gets older. As a retired special education teacher, I’m always about having the student involved.

I made a few changes to the yard and put in some elevation but I didn't know how to make the left part of the layout two levels as Jan described.  I really like the idea of three different heights so I'll need some help.  I attached the scarm file.  Also, my son is going to be 22 in a few weeks and he is excited about the new layout.  Thank you for the feedback.

Almost forgot.  I saved the file as a bmp file but it wouldn't let me attach it because the file was too big.

Vito - BMP will almost always be too big to post. Save as JPEGs. 

You have a couple of mis-aligned tracks - try running the train simulator - it will stop where there are disconnects. One is a result of mis-matched track heights.  A second one I cannot tell.  You also need to raise and lower the track where they cross. There is only 2 1/4 inch height difference.  I think you are going to have the raise one track and lower the other to get enough clearance.  That will give you an idea of the grades you can expect.

I prefer what you did with the new yard entry, keeping two long spurs, and still an entry and exit.

For your buildings - the new Menards theater and the barber shop look decent for under $100 fully lighted. WS also has new ones as well which are also nice.

ScoutingDad, thanks for the reply.  I will run the simulator.  The reason for the small height is the criss-cross will be where I put the drawbridge and it is only 2 1/2 inches high.

You need to read the training module on grades/  They are fairly easy to implement.

Here's is my attempt to modify your plan to have under table staging.

Jan

Wow Jan, I really like what you did but I have a couple of questions.  I have an old lionel drawbridge (6-2317) that my father bought for me as a child and this is a must have in the layout.  I see a 90 degree crossing in the blue layer but I don't see how I could incorporate the drawbridge into the plan unless I raise the green and layers another 2.5 inches as that is the height of the drawbridge.  Also, I take it that the access to the red and blue layers will be a lift bridge with two tracks going across which shouldn't be too big of a deal.  Thanks for doing that.

The RED layer is the staging and at 0".  The BLUE layer is the upper layer and is at an elevation of 8+".  The GREEN layer is the lower level and has an elevation of 0" to 2" (where it connects to GRADE).  SCARM doesn't automatically draw the layers in the proper vertical order; RED is under BLUE.  Grades are roughly 3%.

The BLUE track uses only O54 curves but you could substitute O42.  Also the STAGING is O54.

Had to I watched a video to understand what you wanting to do with your drawbridge.   You can put the bridge where the YELLOW and BLUE lines meet where I placed a 90 deg crossing.  There is a complete loop on top that won't cross over the bridge; just go under it.

A swing-out gate supporting both the RED and Blue tracks will provide entry to the inside.  These have been discussed on the Forum.

Jan

I definitely want to build the layout designed by Jan but I am a little worried that it is being my capabilities.  Maybe this is a question more for the electrical forum, but I'll ask here.  I have one 20 amp breaker in my panel that I can dedicate to the train but will that be enough?  I also have a Z-4000, a TIU and some power units that come with the MTH starter kits but I have no idea if that is enough for this size layout. 

@Vitto  size of the layout has little to do with the power required to run trains. Modern engines draw about an amp. Considering what you have said you want to do,  a Z4000 is plenty big. What starts getting into trouble are lots incandescent lights (in passenger cars and accessories), multiple engines in a lash-up and anything else that draws continuous power. The other consideration is how you run power feeds to the track sections. Gauge of wire and length of run makes a difference as the power draw increases. Some prefer 16, 14 gauge or 12 gauge copper solid or stranded and then there are buss or home run/star feeder designs.  If you are running DCS pick up a copy of the DCS companion. It will help head off wiring problems and signal strength issues if you follow Barry's instructions. He describes power districts and blocks and recommends home run wiring due to the way DCS provides the control signal. In my little layout, each loop has a separate power block. Each arm of the Z will provide up to 10 amps for 20 total. 

For what its worth, I power only switches from the Z.  Everything else has separate power supplies. I've stripped out regular incandescent bulbs from all my buildings, so everything is either 4.5 or 12 volt DC  LEDs.   

I do have Barry's book and on my old layout, I used the home run wiring with I think what was the magic lights.  My terminology is not good but I think used what was called bricks to power my switches and a couple of building with lights.  Everything was good until I moved and got out of the hobby for over 7 years.  I just remember the wiring being a nightmare for me and now I'm looking at doing a bigger layout.  I know it can be done with all of the help available here on the forum but it's going to be a challenge.  Thanks for all of the help.

I've looked at the track plan designed by Jan and put in the drawbridge but the problem that I see is that the grade will be to steep on the top yellow grade.  The upper part of the drawbridge is 2.5 inches higher than the lower part so the grade going from blue to green has to drop about 9 inches and from my calculation, it puts that grade at well over 4%.   I could lower the blue tracks but then might limit access to the staging area below.  Am I looking at this the correct way?

You can lower the height at the junction of the upper and grade track without any problem as long as you keep sufficient clearance (between the top of the rails and the lowest structure) for trains entering the staging from the lower track.

Jan

I will definitely try to make it work in the Scarm software.  Thanks for the advice.

The current plan that Jan put together has 9 inches between the blue upper level and the red staging level.  In order to get the drawbridge in, I will need to reduce that distance.  What is the minimum distance that I should consider between the blue and red levels in order to still be able to access the red staging level? 

No shorter than your tallest car. You have to measure and not buy a new car that is taller or run an engine with pantographs up. I can't run MTH premier stack cars due to tunnel and bridge heights. Funny K-line and Lionel stacks are fine. I would guess the auto carriers would also be too tall.   

The 9" over the actual staging tracks is to let you get your hands in without forcing to remove the cars in front.  So you can lower the sections before the the switches leading into the staging tracks.

Jan

As much a like the layout developed by Jan, I can't get it to work out with the drawbridge.  My tallest car is a a little over 5 inches and lowering the blue level to get acceptable grades has me taking it down to far.

I extended the grade in order to lower it below the upper layer by 2".  The only requirement I had was to maintain a 6" separation between the grade and the entrance to the staging.  I don't know what the drawbridge needed in the way of vertical separation of the tracks.

Jan

@Jan  @Vitto  I like where this is going and tried running the train simulator. Saw a few open sections. Made some cuts and inserted flex track to help the match up. There would be enough flex in the tracks when laying down to not need to do the flex. I think I got all the breaks fixed.

I thought the grades were not lining up very well and re-worked the long grade transition. I think this replaced section will operate better than having a switch on a grade. Installation would be a challenge. Just a suggestion. The grade is not more than 3% which should be fine.  As drawn, this will be a fun build.

Thank you for doing that as I am going to start the prepping for the benchwork.  I have to clean up a little bit, then paint, improve the lighting and work on the electrical.  Attached are some pictures on the area that I have to work with.   

@Vitto  your plumber is going to love you if he has to get to the clean out traps in the corner.

BTW if you are going to take videos of the layout make sure you have the ability to add enough light to capture decent video footage.

Scouting Dad, I guess I really didn't think about the plumber so thanks for pointing that out.  I imagine I will have to do something in the corner with the benchwork just in case the traps do need to be accessed.  Also, I did to home depot and looked at some lights and right now i'm thinking about maybe 3 or 4 LED light bars.  Once again, thanks for the tips.

I added some lighting today and now the room is really bright.  I still have to adjust the heights of the lights and tuck back some wires but for the most part the lighting is complete and the room is no longer dark.  I thought about finishing the ceiling but I decided to leave that as is.  Next step is to add some electrical outlets. 

I am taking a look at where I can add electrical outlets and I'm not exactly sure where to put them.
Walls 1 and 2 are cement so I don't think they are good choices.
Wall 3 is drywall and the easiest place to add a couple of outlets.
Walls 4 and 5 are drywall but due to the beams it will a little more difficult to put outlets on either of these walls but it can be done. 

I'm thinking about two outlets on wall 3, 2 outlets on wall 4, and 1 outlet on wall 5.  Also, I think a switch to stop all power would be beneficial so maybe hook up a 3-way with a stop all power switch on walls 3 and 5, or maybe walls 3 and 4 instead. 

Does this sound like a good plan?

It also depends on where you plan on having your control panel. Also if you are planning on using plug n play items you won’t want too many extension cords in the way. You might consider running conduit with receptacles low along the concrete walls.

I think I need to do a lot more planning.  My plan is to run DCS from a tablet or the handheld but I am still debating whether I should also set up for conventional and I wasn't planning on really having a control panel since it seems to take up a lot of room.

@Vitto

Maybe I am underthinking this - you need one outlet for transformer power and another for accessories. I do use surge protected power strips (metal case) to connect the wall warts. For what its worth, my previous employer removed all plastic case power strips over the course of a couple of days from all facilities, offices too, due to an office fire caused by a failed plastic cased power strip.   

If you are only using transformer bricks then you will need a TIU and and AIU for switches.  I've found I can run reasonably well under conventional transformer control and have fallen back on it when I just want to run trains in a loop. Sometimes I do not want to bother with connecting the WiFi TIU and tablet.  I have a z4000 but also a stand alone transformer controller when needed for conventional. Layout wiring is the same.

Are your turnouts going to be manual or motor control?  If using Ross, the DZ1000 and DZ2500 are the usual motors/control. The DZ1000 has a nub you can use to move the points without power. The DZ2500 needs to be powered in order to move the points. Since I turn the power off when I am working on the layout, the DZ-1000 is a better option for me, but I do have both kinds.  My biggest operating problem is when the DZs decide to only partially throw the points. I've got one turnout which is a pain to get to and also happens to be my main problem child. That one is reliable maybe 50% of the time - so I avoid using it. Keep the turnouts in easy/manageable reach.

@Vitto I know this might be a little to late. I as well agree with the third plan with the two yards. That way down the road it gives you some more operating options. Either a in bound and out bound, or just two separate yards.

My plan is to use my Z-4000 for track power and the bricks for accessories/switches.  I do have a TIU but I am going to have to purchase at least one and maybe two AIU's.  Of my 13 locomotives, 9 are MTH DCS and 4 are old Lionel conventional engines.  I will probably only operate DCS engines so I will use the DZ-1000 for switches and still not sure about wiring for conventional operations too.  As far as the layout, I have not started the benchwork yet but I am leaning towards the multi-level plan that evolved from the help of others on the forum here.  My biggest concern is if that track plan is beyond my capabilities to build and get it running.  However, I do like the idea of more and more yard space and multi levels.  I'm gonna try to get the electrical complete and paint in the next couple of weeks so I can get moving on the benchwork.  Thanks for all of the help thus far as I will be needing a lot more going forward.

I am working on the electrical and I am a little befuddled.  I want to put in 2 emergency shut offs but without the benchwork, I am not sure how to do it.  I think one shut off should be somewhere along wall 2 and the second one along wall 4, and I will tie them together using 3 way switches.  My issue is that I am not planning for a large control panel as I am thinking about putting push buttons for the switches along the facing of the benchwork.  I think I am going to try to put the shutoffs on the facing of the benchwork too so when I do the electrical, I will leave a lot of extra wire and the trim later once the benchwork is done.  I am just not sure if not having a large control panel is going to be a problem. 

GunrunnerJohn uses these devices on his layout to control all power.

https://smile.amazon.com/dp/B0...ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it

Here's the link to the thread.

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...3#157406524014392573

Jan

I see the light fixtures have pull strings and are plugged in. Are you planning to wire them direct and have a switch to control? Also wondering why you didn't go with a couple track lights. It would have made it easier to control lighting in certain areas.

I would paint the ceiling black.

I have been watching this thread and it is coming together nicely.