Philadelphia Subways and Elevated

Up Hayes...and all it's loyal men. 

Jeff-

Here's another view.

CTSRapid posted:

Jeff-

Here's another view.

Great !  Thank you - jeff

Joseph Frank posted:

Hello Tom --

Thanks for the support --  I would expect same from an ex Bronx "Mountie" (Mt St Mike)  guy - just like me !!  

I am very glad to see so much response and interest posted here for the PRT / PTC / SEPTA  era Broad Street Subway Cars and Market Frankford EL Cars - pre war and post war car types.    When I was the main Tech Support person since 2000 for all the MTH produced O-Gauge NYC Subway Sets cars,  I brought up,  back in the mid 2000's,  with the MTH VP Mark H.,  whom I had been continually working closely with,   the topic about possibly doing a production run of Philly Subway-EL cars  - as MTH was producing the O-Gauge CHICAGO EL CARS.   After some survey research done, there was far not enough interest volume nor support expressed to consider any such Philly Subway-EL production models -- as MTH would have had to produce at least a thousand model units (based on 3 or 4 car sets) and sell them - for each carbody type produced - to cover tool & die, and manufacturing, shipping, etc.,  costs and make any profits. 

Re: the MTH Chicago EL Cars,  there was a tremendous volume amount of survey research interest, support,  (just as with the NY Subway sets) and pre-order-promises, to take a chance producing them.  And they all sold well.

NYC Subway-EL  car models,  and  Chicago Subway-EL  (and Chicago Interurban  Lines) car models,   were already quite well long  sales-established since the 1960's thru the then-mid-2000's,  in HO Scale, some in N Scale, and a few in O-Scale,  as brass,  white metal,  or epoxy resin models, by various Jobber-Importer-Manufacturers of those decades.  There was NOTHING at all like that ever realized for Philly Subway Cars as far as ANY production in any scales of Philly Subway-EL Car models.  There was a reason why !!  Just NOT enough volume of interest level !!

However, there was quite enough interest in the MTH produced "PCC" Trolley Car line, and as you see, MTH did produce an O-Gauge PCC Car done up in many Transit Name schemes, as well as in a few SEPTA color schemes,  including the Green-Cream PTC version of the Pre-SEPTA era.  These all are long ago sold out !  This was also the case for many decades  of the production and sales of HO, N and some O Scale brass,  white metal, and plastic production manufactured models of PCC  (and standard body)  model streetcars, and those limited runs done in epoxy resin --- many done in various Philly paint schemes (PTC, SEPTA)

As I stated earlier,  Philly was and still is mainly a TROLLEY CAR fan and TROLLEY CAR modelers "city and region".  And that is what you see at the Philly region railroad and traction shows !  Also Philly has a large railfan base for commuter rail (ex-READING RR,  ex-PENNSYLVANIA RR,  ex-B&O RR and SEPTA Regional Rail.) 

Perhaps NOW enough interest can be generated thru people here (and other forums) to have these Philly Subway-EL Car O-Scale Models produced in smooth resin in the limited run (25, 30 items) numbers minimum required to start to produce them.  Perhaps by IMW.

BELOW  top photo is an O SCALE fully scratch built Chicago wood EL Car built by friend ED HALSTEAD some years ago, 

and the BOTTOM photo is my old friend BOB OLSON's  (no relation to Steve Olsen)  fully scratch built O-SCALE wooden BMT "C" type EL train (ran on Fulton Street EL) on his scratch built BMT EL and layout - and his O-Scale Brooklyn streetcars on the streets below.  We are in the scratch-builders "dinosaur era"  modeling club,  heh !

regards - Joe F

 

I would def be interested if there was a run of El cars (Almond Joy type), or Orange Broad St line Cars.

Jeff

Nice use of Lionel Superliner II Trucks!

PRR-

Ooh- good catch!  Although not exactly accurate (they aren't really Lionel Superliner II trucks), it did remind me that the template for the model was NOT the Atlas Comet II commuter car as I advised Jeff Covert.  Atlas made a variation of the Comet in the form of Amtrak Horizon passenger cars and that was the car and the trucks used on the SEPTA version.  I did use the Comet for subsequent conversions to Baltimore, Boston, Cleveland, and Toronto cars.  My apologies to Jeff and the group for the bum gouge.  Thank God for all the eagle eyes out there.

Thanks for clarifying CTSRapid

I was looking thru my mth subway sets today, and realized the CTA 30-2477 set bears a close resemblance to the orange Philly subway cars.  I might be on the look out for some more of these cars for repainting and new decals.

Hello Guys

PERHAPS we should create a survey for Joe @ IMW on this thread as to who want to have these BELOW items in O-Scale:

Using the " a to h " list below:

---------BROAD STREET SUBWAY --  PRE-WAR CARS:

(a) - North Broad / B-1 Cars  (1926 built original cars)

(b) - South Broad / B-2 Cars   (1938 built Pattison Ave. Extension cars)

(c) - Broad St. Subway  / B-3 BRIDGE line cars (built in 1936)

---------BROAD STREET SUBWAY --  POST-WAR CARS:

(d) - Broad IV Cars (Built in 1980-81 - Modern Orange scheme cars)

----------MARKET - FRANKFORD EL CARS - PRE-WAR CARS:

(e) - Original "Market St" line EL (ME-1) Cars built in 1906

(f) - Later 'Frankford Extension Line"  EL (ME-2) Cars built in 1919-20

---------MARKET - FRANKFORD EL CARS - POST-WAR CARS:

(g) -  BUDD BUILT "Almond Joy Roof" new EL (ME-3) Cars built in 1959-60

(h) - ADTRANZ BUILT  NEW  (ME-4)  EL Cars currently (2016)  running  built in 1997

Thanks Joe for taking the initiative to set up the survey.

G: Budd Built 'Almond Joy Roof' El Cars

D : Broad IV Cars - modern orange cars

Joe-

Amen to that- great initiative on your part!  I'm all in on "G- Almond Joys" if and when.  Well done and many thanx!

Hello Jeff C

Well, some advice, unfortunately;   The CTA Chicago (MTH CTA 30-2477) Cars are much shorter very vaguely similar cars to the longer and wider Broad St Subway B-4 Subway Cars.

The prototype Chicago EL Cars  -(per MTH set 30-2477)-  bodies are just inside 9 feet wide x 48 feet long ---

The prototype Broad Street Subway B-4 car bodies are  10 feet wide x 67 feet long

See Images below attached comparing both body types;  Your cursor placed over the photo shows the caption;

You could get a few 2 car ADD ON sets and cut up the body panels to create the proper window (W) and door (Door) spacing arrangement for the Broad 4 cars as follows:       W - Door - W-W-W - Door - W-W - Door - W-W 

Compare that with the CTA Car image above !

However, the BOTTOMS of the door windows on the B4 Car are also located quite higher up than those on the CTA Car Model doors !

By the way - the 2nd photo above shows the HO Scale MODEL of the Broad St Subway B4 Car created by Island Model Works  -- This could be done in O-Scale if enough valid support comes thru !

BELOW is a rare  and unusual image of CTA EL Car 2211 of the CTA 2200 Series, shown in PTC-SEPTA Fern Rock Yards of the Broad St. Subway among the Broad Street Line's original standard stock -- this view from August 24, 1969  (47 years ago !) .   LONG BEFORE some second hand CTA EL cars were brought to Philly to run on the standard gauge track (as Broad St Subway track is)   of the Red Arrow Lines Norristown Hi-Speed Line !

Regards - Joe F

Alentown posted:

Up Hayes...and all it's loyal men. 

Boo hiss. 

 Tom 

Hi joe

Thanks for the sage advice.  Thinking back, having ridden on the CTA EL, there is certainly a big size difference compared to the philly subway.   Back to the drawing board.....

Looks like we drum up enough interest to get cars made, or it's off to Atlas horizon cars 

Cool pic of the CTA 2200 at Fern Rock

I remember being on the sub at fern rock, wondering if the train would ever make it to the platform. When one wants to get home, it seems like a long ride around the yard

Hello Guys

Well, heh, except for me and 2 others here  showing ACTIVE purchase interest so far,  have I proven my stated point that there is scant little MODELING interest in Philly Subway & EL system rolling stock in O-Scale to convince any MFG to produce these cars - and why they have not been done in O Scale ever before ?  And only a few in  "epoxy resin body shell" tiny limited production runs in HO  Scale (and maybe N Scale) !!!

I'll place my vote for d & g

Joe-

Q.E.D., unfortunately.  Well, if Philly is the dead end you predicted, how about returning to the fountainhead of O-scale subways, i.e., the Big Apple.  If anyone has his finger on the pulse of MTH, it is clearly yourself.  Given MTH's prolonged dormant period, there seem to be only two directions left: newer models (expensive) or the one missing link in the older collection- the R15 everyone has been seeking for years.  Any chance?

Hello CTSRapid

I have had many solely friendly-chat based conversations with the VP at MTH over the past few years -- and other than the new line of HO SCALE NYC Subway cars they have been involved with -- there are no plans definite yet for the future on any new tool & die created new O Scale NYC subway models.  There are 2 models that we had on the drawing board for consideration back around 2006  -- that is, until the economy took a big dump starting near the end of 2007 and mainly all thru 2008 -- with little decent recovery to this present date (as we all know, feel, see, read and hear).  (Just look at your savings accounts bank interest !!!)   Those two cars were the IND R-10 and the IRT R-15. 

As it was,  bulk sales and new item pre-orders dropped in late 2006 thru 2008 for MTH newest-production NYC Subway set O-Scale items....and therefore far less total production numbers were produced of those affected sets,  than was normal in sets of previous  years,  to satisfy the diminished numbers of new pre-orders and sales.  MTH and the whole hobby industry felt the failing economy - - and MTH since then over the past few years have only produced small re-runs of years-earlier produced O Gauge NYC subway sets.

And as you see LIONEL only produced an R-16 , R-27 and R-30 Set using the same R-27 body tool & dies  -- and that was it.  No more new NYC subway sets from them for a long time....nor even any new tool & die created body style designs !

Also, NYC Subway sets have long been seen being sold on EBAY in significant numbers -- and privately on some forum boards and chat boards.  I know of at least 5 people who sold all or much of their subway sets due to job loss,   cut back work time, and economic problems. Or just lost interest over the past few years under this economy and its financial challenges !  Anyway, that's the status quo as it has been and is. 

Here are some photos on my EL Line  of my own scratch built IRT R-15 Car in O-Scale.  The O-Scale IRT R-17 Car seen coupled behind my R-15 Car I scratch built also, and is NOT the MTH R-17 model which was produced many years AFTER I scratch built both these shown models back around 2000-01.

PS:  O-Scale Philly Subway Car models may not be dead if enough interest over time can be generated to do a small production run  (30 cars at the least) thru Joe O at IMW.  But of course, they still then have to be painted, have interiors, trucks, and underbody added, and be  (2 rail or 3 rail system) powered.  And the model-purchaser must have the skills to do that work  !!

regards - Joe

Dan Padova posted:

Do any of the manufacturers make or have made models of the Broad Street Subway or the Market Frankfort elevated trains ?  I see beaucoup New York City versions but haven't come across any PTC or SEPTA models.

Did you ever see Jimmy Sparkman's large scale PRT/PRT cars? I saw them many, many years ago.    Sweet.

Wonder how many people would be interested in "Almond Joys"? 

Joe-

Many thanx for your perceptive and insightful analysis; you clearly are the go-to guy on this stuff.  Really admire how you weave in all the socio-economic elements to complete the big picture.  Oh well, all I can do at this point is drool over your fantastic R15.  That will have to do for now.

Rule292 posted:

Dan Padova posted:

Do any of the manufacturers make or have made models of the Broad Street Subway or the Market Frankfort elevated trains ?  I see beaucoup New York City versions but haven't come across any PTC or SEPTA models.

Did you ever see Jimmy Sparkman's large scale PRT/PRT cars? I saw them many, many years ago.    Sweet.

Wonder how many people would be interested in "Almond Joys"? 

I would be very interested in the "Almond Joys". I road those guys every Friday night to the dances on the Boulevard. in the fifties and sixties.