Picture of new FlyerChief NKP Berk

Looks like they're going to eliminate the graphite on the smokebox and firebox :

Guess I'll have to excavate my airbrush.

Rusty

In general, I take photo's from both Lionel and MTH with a grain of salt, and both companies are known for goofing up on some big buck items.  Ask the O Gaugers about Lionel's California Zephyr cars.

However, I don't see any evidence of altering the photo on the ad, they're just not that good with Photoshop.

I suspect this is a cost-saving measure by not having to develop paint masks for the graphite work.

An all black Berk isn't a show stopper for me, I can correct it if I feel like it.

Unless someone asks at York or they wave a sample around at their presentation, we'll have to wait until the Berks hit the streets.

Rusty

Perhaps Lionel is posting pictures of it with and without graphite for the purpose of generating comments in the various forums. A game of confound the S Gaugers.

Let's not be cruel in our comments. It's like biting the hand that feeds us.

I'm sure the usual disclaimer covers however the Berks will be decorated whenever they come out:

Rusty

Its a black and white photo, IMO it almost looks like the smokebox front is graphite but its impossible to tell either way.

As far as it being a "screw up", I guess it depends which time/photo of the real 765 that you saw last.

Or it can be two-tone graphite: dark on the smokebox and light on the firebox:

Graphite can very quite a bit depending on mixture, application, exposure to the elements.

The FC Berk will be what it will be, I'm not going to lose sleep over it.  I'm not cancelling my order.  At this rate, I don't think we're going to see them until next year anyway. (Crow in the freezer ready to be microwaved, along with spuds and green beans...)

Rusty

Rusty good call. Lionel shows next year.

Ah, I see they updated the shipping schedule this morning. 

All the Berks are there, in case anyone's interested:

Rusty

I don't know about you all, but those heavy looking cast-on handrails bother the Dickens out of me. Gilbert fitted wire hand rails to most of its die cast steamers (e.g., the 1941 - 1949 4-piece die cast Atlantic which was affordable, but never 'cheap').  Since the Berks will not be made and delivered for awhile, one might want to bug the folks at Lionel about correcting this shortcoming.

Bob

Yep.

From the Flyer catalog:

It was hard enough to get the scale side to look seriously at the SD70's.  They're going to have little to no interest with the FlyerCheif Berk as presented so far.

Rusty

The tooling has been designed with replaceable sections so that different models can look different. The Polar Express pilot versus the scale pilot is one  example. I do not know what the other differences are, if any.

The Lionel engineering center in California has not seen these locos, as of 4/17/15. When the pilot/engineering models come in, then we will have a better idea of what to expect.

I met with Matt Ashba at York for the interview for the S Gaugian.  He confirmed that the next five Berks will be exactly like the PE except for the cowcatcher and headlight.  No extra paint on the locomotive, no wire handrails, and no extra features.  I held the PE and actually got to run it.  I believe people will be satisfied with these Berks considering the price.

I pre-ordered two Berks (a C&O and NKP) based on the comments in the press about them having better details than the PE set locos, coupled with the  fact that recently released Flyer steam locos had separate handrails. Had I seen the photo which was conveniently released by Lionel after the pre-order deadline had passed, I wouldn't have wasted my time or my money on any of these, much less two! Now that the delivery date has also been pushed back again, presently to 2016, I'm not just disappointed, I'm really P-O'd. I'm not going to cancel at this point, since the deposit money is probably lost in either case, but at this point, I'm not sure I'll pick up either of them if and when they ever do come in. Lesson learned, I guess, no more advance orders for unseen items!

Now with their new "build-to-order" policies, the importers/manufacturers want firm commitments from their customers upfront for items sight-unseen, yet they still want to continue with their same old habits of delivery delays, item cancellations, specification changes, sloppy QC, price increases, etc. I'm sorry, but a BtO program must be a promissory agreement for both parties, when a customer agrees to buy an item at the announced price and announced delivery date, and if the importer/manufacturer fails to live up to his promises, the agreement should be able to be cancelled with no penalties suffered by the customer.

Bill in FtL

I pre-ordered the NKP version through my LHS.  No deposit and if I were to cancel at this point, (I'm not) he can still cancel with his distributor with no penalty on his part.

As far as locomotive detail level vs. the Polar Express, the only thing I expected was a new "normal" pilot.

I'm buying the Berk more as a curiosity.  I want to see the Brave New World of FlyerChief firsthand. Plus, I have access to a River Raisin Berk and would like to do an apples and oranges comparison.

However, the Boys at the Circle L Ranch have lost much of my respect over the past year and they're going to have to work pretty hard to get it back.

Rusty

I too am disappointed that the new Berks have a handrail "shelf," which is what those cast-in handrails look like.

I did a quick image search thinking that the O Gauge Baby Berk had cast in handrails, but it seems the early ones did not. While the LionCheif release does.

I initially thought that since this locomotive had to play two roles, as a toy and a model, that was the reason. It seems in the past it wasn't. Unless there is some bizarre legal reason that led to a lawsuit when children injured themselves on the separate handrails, but we are not privy to that information.

We will see when all is revealed in the Great York Interviews. I hope the current management team isn't focused on just making toys and on the other extreme Vision Line offerings. I am quite comfortable in the middle.

For a scale proportioned Locomotive, it's a shame to have those ledges masquerading as handrails ruin the vast effort it takes to bring this to market for many of us. Me included. I have four of them on order.   

quote:

Now with their new "build-to-order" policies, the importers/manufacturers want firm commitments from their customers upfront for items sight-unseen, yet they still want to continue with their same old habits of delivery delays, item cancellations, specification changes, sloppy QC, price increases, etc. I'm sorry, but a BtO program must be a promissory agreement for both parties, when a customer agrees to buy an item at the announced price and announced delivery date, and if the importer/manufacturer fails to live up to his promises, the agreement should be able to be cancelled with no penalties suffered by the customer.

Hm. Interesting.

Ya' know... I think I agree with this.

BTO kind of sucks.

Regrettably, I do not believe that many will, judging by conversations I had at York. The simple aesthetics might be OK for a PE starter set, but not for the separate sale versions that are about as costly as a whole PE set. Owning a Legacy system and seven engines (not including the TMCC Mikados and Pacifics) to go with it, I am not interested in fumbling around with another remote.

Sorry.

Bob

As MTH is about to let us in on what's in the near future for them and S and I hold my breath, I can't help but wonder as I look at my 21 legacy engines..."I wonder how well they will work with DCS?"

Ben

I was told by Andy Edleman of MTH that DCS will not run Legacy engines.  I asked him at York. 

That's what I use.  The TMCC base plugged into the TIU.  It works well, too. 

You won't get access to all of the Legacy features, but the basics are there: Forward, reverse, bell, whistle/horn, smoke on/off, address selection and a couple more I haven't used much.

Rusty

Plan C certainly had the brightest future with the least amount of question marks hanging over it. It is also has more innovation, investment, variety, support, and is more affordable. Just sayin...

I'm building myself a small N scale pike to play with in the mean time while things shake out in S. If S is on it's way back to the days of years between product releases that I'm interested in then at least I didn't waste anymore time waiting. If it gets back on track then I'll be happy to jump back in. In the mean time I didn't blow too much money on the N scale layout and if I want to sell of the N scale stuff that's easy.

As far as DCS/TMCC control goes, I ran that way in O scale for years and it works. The thing to note is that the S gauge Legacy engines don't seem to run as well under TMCC as they do under Legacy control. Your best bet may be to switch to DCC which both systems support.

I sooo feel for my S scale comrades. You guys truly deserve better. There are some really fine folk in S scale.

Alas, johnnyspeed, Plan C is the plan I went with.  It's the path of least resistance for one that is wanting to have a modest sized layout loaded with variety. (I think I must have ADHD, I need a lot of variety in order to hold my interest in model railroading.)

Sadly, I've not been back in HO a year yet, and I already have amassed a fleet of switch engines, road switcher engines, even some road power, appropriate to the KC area in the early 60s:

* Frisco switchers.

* ATSF Zebra Stripe switchers.

* CB&Q in the black/grey w/slogans.

* UP in the "Route Of The Streamlines" scheme.

* Chicago Great Western.

* Rock Island.

* Missouri Pacific.

Some of the above are in different paint schemes for the same railroad as well as variations of the same engine model.

Engine types include: EMD NW2's, SW9's, Alco S-2's, RS-1, RS-2, RS-3's, Baldwin VO1000's, DS4-4-1000, S-12, FA-1's, FB-1's, etc!

AND... most of it came factory equipped with DCC/Sound... and get this: NONE of the DCC/Sound engines cost more than $200, most of them well below that. (Like a Broadway Limited Imports Paragon 2 EMD switcher for $135 NIB on closeout.)

S scale has so much to commend it... such a shame the larger mfg'ers are dragging their feet and taking the "wait and see" approach!!!

for NKP, i prefer the Mars light version...

cheers...gary

The current and future:

I am strictly a runner of S gauge trains.  I have had mixed feelings about the releases since Lionel made their "commitment" to S.  The articulated steam engines, while very nice are too large for me to run.  The diesels have been very nice and run well.  I hope the new operating system works well and based on the reviews in the magazines of recent similar O gauge offerings it should.  While I am disappointed that the scale features of this engine are somewhat lacking, it does represent something new for me to run and does not cost an arm and a leg.

Rolland