Protocraft & Kadee Couplers

I am working on it with Timdude we will have a full review here asap

There will in the very near future be a definitive article published on the available O scale couplers and their compatibility.

Hi to all

Straight can go fine.

handle a tight  "S" curve doesn't because the kadee doesn't close itself into the protocraft, the room is not big enough for the kadee knucle to close.

Now if your curves are wide like in the real world it could work, or make a adapter car with proto in one side and kadee in the other.

here some pictures.

I believe we are referring to the new magnetic Proto-Craft couplers. The couplers shown are Clouser's traction couplers- beautiful they are; not exactly what we need.

http://www.protocraft.com/cate...ID=689&Categoryid=15

Boy, these new "magnetic" Proto-Craft couplers look fantastic. When were then announced, and are they available now?   Also, will these new models couple consistently with the Kadee 805 models, and the newer Kadee 740 series?

Protocraft has 2 closer couplers,1 that has to be assembled,the other is the magnetic coupler as you said that can be operated with a magnetic wand or bottom operated with cut levers. As I said I'm new to O scale,so am depending on the advanced experience of others. I'm making my observations from the knowledge & experience I have.The magnetic couplers work great,but they don't look like a modern E coupler.I'd like to see a new coupler that looks like the San Quan couplers with the "lightening" slots on the the "thumb" side of the coupler,combined with the great working parts of the Protocraft couplers & upper & lower safety shelfs for modern freight. These safety shelfs could be cut off or offered separately as add ons.For a look at the Double shelf couplers,look up AAR E double shelf couplers. This should bring up my large scale,which's a G scale website. Or you can put G double shelf couplers in your address bar.
Burl has made a double shelf coupler for G scale out of Nylon & he's looking at making these couplers out of steel. I'm not a pro in O scale but we need E & F & H couplers for O scale. I think the entire scale would move more towards prototype cars & operation.
That's my $5 worth,not just 5cents. (Smile).Al Hummel

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 7:04 PM, O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:


Reply By Erik C Lindgren: Protocraft & Kadee Couplers== To reply by email, write above this line. == Hello, Alan Hummel: We're sending you this notification because you are either following the forum, the content, or the author listed below. New Reply To Topic
| Subject: Protocraft & Kadee Couplers Reply By: Erik C Lindgren In: Train Forums / 2-Rail SCALE | |

I believe we are referring to the new magnetic Proto-Craft couplers. The couplers shown are Clouser's traction couplers- beautiful they are; not exactly what we need.   View This Reply
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I believe it has been roughly a year or so.

Norm does have them in stock. Troubling part we've discovered is the draft box incompatibility with just about every Kadee application. Custom tap and drill is the only way. I would surmise he was avoiding copyright to produce a Kadee 4 way mount? Timdude you have had some contact with Norm over this would you elaborate a little further?

I am mounting a set on my Key Model Imports ATSF PA set. A consist of at least 90-100lbs on the drawbar so I am obviously hopeful for a successful compatibility with the 805's mounted on my passenger and head end gear.





       

Everyone knows that the older Kadee couples right up to dummy couplers, right?  I have very few Clouser/HiSierra couplers, but have not noticed any problem coupling up with the knuckle closed, like a dummy.

 

On the shelf couplers - probably long past time for someone - not me - to fund this for Mr. Hummel.

Kadee 805 on top
Protocraft magnetic in middle
Kadee 745 on bottom

Please pardon the photo quality all done with my iPhone 6 plus.

I have been installing the new Protocrafts on various cars now. The Protocraft boxes are beautiful but will not use the stock mounting holes on Atlas cars. they stick out about 3/16 of and inch or so. You must drill new hole or use the Protocraft couplers in Atlas boxes. The short Kadee boxes can work if you cut off the rear stem of the Protocraft coupler. I have done this to my engines and cabooses because those holes are already set up for the short Kadee box. I cut off the back stem and fill the box with black RTV because I don't need them to move side to side on the radius I am running. The standard Kadee hole placement is about half a hole different from the Protocraft box. I asked Norm about this and he said he could not and would change it due to tooling cost. He also said I was the first guy to complain about it. I think these couplers have been primarily used in the brass arena where you are drilling your own holes anyways a lot of the time. Intermountain cars take a slight trim of the center frame and again an elongation of the rear hole and you can use the Protocraft box. I don't tap them I use through bolts with nuts on the back. Most of my PFE cars are Intermountain so I am fine with that.

Norm says they will not work with Kadees but I believe he means the operation side of the equation as they seem to hook together by the 5 finger switcher method. I made 2 transition reefers just in case.

I cannot post pictures, but if Erik comes up he can post the various modifications I did with his phone.

I also took the Kadee coupler gauge and modified it with a Protocraft coupler just so everything is the same. Pretty easy, I will have Erik take a picture of that also. I plan on Protocraft exclusively and they blow Kadees out of the water (or off the tracks in this case)

Not to be critical of a superb new product, but doesn't the left side of the new Kadee look a bit more realistic?  Or is the Protocraft a copy of a more modern coupler casting?

 

And while I love good operating scale couplers like Scale Craft, Clouser, and Lionel 700, there is a cost factor for some of us?  Kadee prices may be up, but they are still within reachnof the common man.  Now if we could only get them to make die cast freight trucks?

Photo copyright courtesy: Tim Burton (Tim's Toy Trains)

I was surprised that the Protocraft draft boxes were light grey.  I've been admiring them on the ProtoCraft web site, but had assumed that light color was from a pre-production model.  Do these hold paint well, and if so, what type/brand of paint?

 

...gregg

I just rattle canned mine haven't noticed any issues, but I don't handle the cars much once they are done.

 "I plan on Protocraft exclusively and they blow Kadees out of the water (or off the tracks in this case)"

 

    It will take about 20 years to find that out. I have some of the oldest Kadees and they still work fine. The problem I see with these new couplers is they have a moving pin that is likely to get gummed up over time. I've used all the various operating knuckle couplers over the years and none have been as reliable as the plain old Kadees. The Kadee design uses geometry instead of relying on a moving pin which is much better design for operational reliability...DaveB 

There are places for everything.  When it shows, I use the Protocraft/Clouser scale coupler. If it is a train, I use dummies. If it is something that gets coupled/uncoupled all the time, like a tender or a caboose, Kadee.  It isn't an "either-or"decision for me.

I've been contemplating using these for the front of the lead locomotive, on the rear of the caboose, and end of the observation cars.

 

What I would like to see is someone make an angle cock that is CLOSED. The angle cock on the lead engine and rear car obviously can't be open if the train is running.

 

I guess I could cut it off and glue it back on facing the side.  

Thank you Erik for the great pic's & info. I'm all new to O Scale,but am learning.
With the track radii I plan to use,the sharpest being 42",the largest 50" I have to wonder if the Protocraft's will negotiate them on the sharper curves as there's only 1 shank length verses Kadee.I took this to Norm & his reply was the success or failure will depend on my track radii plus the shank length. I can't change the shank length without surgery to his existing coupler & I told him the radii I'd be using-this was not helpful as I presented the radii I'd be using. I'm guessing he designed these couplers for short freight,which they'll be great for.Thanks again,Al

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 8:23 PM, O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:


Reply By Erik C Lindgren: Protocraft & Kadee Couplers== To reply by email, write above this line. == Hello, Alan Hummel: We're sending you this notification because you are either following the forum, the content, or the author listed below. New Reply To Topic
| Subject: Protocraft & Kadee Couplers Reply By: Erik C Lindgren In: Train Forums / 2-Rail SCALE | |

Photo copyright courtesy: Tim Burton (Tim's Toy Trains)   This post contains 10 photos. View This Reply
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TimDude,I found the Atlas mounting hole problem too.I was eager to mount my 1st coupler,so I  managed to "crowd" a screw into an Atlas mounting hole as they're supposed to be an exact fit,thinking it was a minor issue I was making a big deal out of. I since have rethought this & researched using Kadee boxes I have with Protocraft couplers. I noticed there's more side to side movement so I thought this would be a better idea. I noticed Kadee sells coupler boxes so I thought this might be a good solution.Thanks again for all the great help.Al Hummel

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 8:05 PM, O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:


Reply By TimDude: Protocraft & Kadee Couplers== To reply by email, write above this line. == Hello, Alan Hummel: We're sending you this notification because you are either following the forum, the content, or the author listed below. New Reply To Topic
| Subject: Protocraft & Kadee Couplers Reply By: TimDude In: Train Forums / 2-Rail SCALE | |

I have been installing the new Protocrafts on various cars now. The Protocraft boxes are beautiful but will not use the stock mounting holes on Atlas cars. they stick out about 3/16 of and inch or so. You must drill new hole or use the Protocraft couplers in Atlas boxes. The short Kadee boxes can work if you cut off the rear stem of the Protocraft coupler. I have done this to my engines and cabooses because those holes are already set up for the short Kadee box. I cut off the back stem and fill the box with black RTV because I don't need them to move side to side on the radius I am running. The standard Kadee hole placement is about half a hole different from the Protocraft box. I asked Norm about this and he said he could not and would change it due to tooling cost. He also said I was the first guy to complain about it. I think these couplers have been primarily used in the brass arena where you are drilling your own holes anyways a lot of the time. Intermountain cars take a slight trim of the center frame and again an elongation of the rear hole and you can use the Protocraft box. I don't tap them I use through bolts with nuts on the back. Most of my PFE cars are Intermountain so I am fine with that.Norm says they will not work with Kadees but I believe he means the operation side of the equation as they seem to hook together by the 5 finger switcher method. I made 2 transition reefers just in case.I cannot post pictures, but if Erik comes up he can post the various modifications I did with his phone.   View This Reply
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Thank you all for all the helpful information & pictures.Those were GREAT pictures everyone posted!!Thanks again,Al Hummel

On Thursday, December 4, 2014 5:58 PM, O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:


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| Subject: Protocraft & Kadee Couplers Reply By: AG In: Train Forums / 2-Rail SCALE | |

Hi to allStraight can go fine.handle a tight  "S" curve doesn't.here some pictures.   View This Reply
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Not smart enough to follow all that.  Let me guess - somebody wanted a Protocraft coupler modified so it would function more like a Kadee?

 

I believe Protocraft is trying to live up to its name - as close as possible to the prototype. I believe they are into this stuff out of a love for trains, and not out of a love for profit.  I personally need to support their efforts more - some of the SP stuff they are doing is really neat.

 

Do I have a desire for stuff that is not currently available? You bet - but if I am the only guy who wants an item, I do not think expecting Protocraft to do it for me is a good idea.

No,you didn't follow the post. I was told by someone,not here,on a p48 site that Kadee & Protocraft won't work together,which the gentlemen here proved like I thought, that they will work together. It might not be as smooth as 2 Protocraft or 2 Kadee but they will work was my concern.I coupled 1 of each by hand but they weren't mounted on rail cars,so the eliment of "hand coupling" can make things happen you want to happen that might not happen when mounted to 2 rail cars.You are 100% right about Protocraft. They do a lot out of the love for trains & at a loss at times.The thing you seem unable to grasp is that there's a definite desire for modern shelf couplers as has been proven by many posts on this site & other group sites. If modelers don't ask for new products how will manufacturers know what we want? Ground throw switch stands were another idea of mine & this desire is also shared by others. The interest in the shelf couplers is strong enough that Kadee will be looking into it just not today.Like you, I'm sold on Protocraft & coming from HO which has the full line of couplers,E,F,& H, I want my couplers as close to prototype couplers as possible. I've contacted Norm asking about pricing & using Protocraft's Korean manufacturer to get  the project developed if I fund it,with no response. Is this selfish & disrespectful on my part?The original maker of the closure coupler that sold it to Norm is 100% behind the idea & said if he still owned the coupler,he'd have the shelfs developed.O scale has so much potential that smaller scales don't,so development of projects here that might not be possible because of size in lower scales,is what I & others are hoping for. I'm not saying anything new here that others haven't already thought about & voiced their wants to manufacturers about,maybe just not mentioned them on this site.
Respectfully,Al Hummel

On Friday, December 5, 2014 3:13 AM, O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:


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| Subject: Protocraft & Kadee Couplers Reply By: bob2 In: Train Forums / 2-Rail SCALE | |

Not smart enough to follow all that.  Let me guess - somebody wanted a Protocraft coupler modified so it would function more like a Kadee? I believe Protocraft is trying to live up to its name - as close as possible to the prototype. I believe they are into this stuff out of a love for trains, and not out of a love for profit.  I personally need to support their efforts more - some of the SP stuff they are doing is really neat. Do I have a desire for stuff that is not currently available? You bet - but if I am the only guy who wants an item, I do not think expecting Protocraft to do it for me is a good idea.   View This Reply
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What I would like to see is someone make an angle cock that is CLOSED. The angle cock on the lead engine and rear car obviously can't be open if the train is running. 

I guess I could cut it off and glue it back on facing the side

     When I was modeling in P-48 I made my own angle cocks from brass tube and wire. The handle turned so it could be placed in the open or closed position. I used them with magnetic air hoses so I could connect up the cars and open the angle cocks or uncouple and close them. It was fun for a few minutes then lost it's charm. On my S stuff I'm setting the angle cock handle about halfway so they could be open or closed depending on one's mind......DaveB

Still confused.  Maybe it would make more sense if you did not surround unnecessarily repeated text with advertisements and greetings from OGR?

 

Somebody - hard to tell who because of multiple repetitions and headings - wanted to have Protocraft cut off the coupler shank.  That is what I was referring to.

By the way - Dave, if those are models, they are spectacular.

Bob deuce is right SPECTACULAR!

 The Illusion 

 

    Here's some S scale cars with Kadees and brass airhoses bent to look like they are connected when running. I get about 90% of the effect of coupled rubber magnetic glad hand airhoses with 10% of the effort and no airhose detail parts cost or maintenance required.( just bend some brass wire and solder on a brass wire simulated angle cock handle) These cars are Lionel O-27 Hi cubes convereted to S scale BTW :>.......DaveB

I would never have guessed that undersize lionel could look so realistic.  S Scale is a good compromise, but it always looks so small compared to O Scale . . . Are those all metal trucks?

What Norm is saying about compatibility is if you have a problem do not complain to him.

 

Feel free to buy a set of the build them yourself couplers and a set of the prebuilt magnetic ones.  Then after you have built them and tested the 2 together tell me if you will be buying more of the BIY ones.  Not me, I've crossed frustration and tedious off my bucket list.

Agree - I have some Scale Craft coupler kits.  I shall have to be extremely bored before I start putting them together.  They are gorgeous, much like the Protocraft.  Just not brass.

 

With no real point/frame of reference or context, or within a consistent one, they can and do look good!

It was stated that the Protocraft draft gear pocket holes do not have the same spacing as Kadee's center line ones.  Question: is the forward hole identically positioned to that of Kadee?  Mounting them with a metal screw in the forward hole and some super glue to keep the pocket from rotating should stand up to the drawbar forces on our model railroads.

 

  IMO one of the biggest improvements in appearance associated with the Protocraft coupler is the opening width of the pocket.   I'd be a happy camper if Kadee offered a prototype width optional plastic pocket with center line only mounting holes.  In tests with Yoder's prototype looking lost wax brass Kadee replacement pocket on a string of brass hoppers running on curves down to 46" radius all I gave up operationally was the delayed uncoupling feature.  Something I'd gladly sacrifice for a better appearing car end.

 

Ed Rappe

Ed,

My experience with these couplers so far has been that they do match up to the Kadee mounting holes on the centerline. They DO Not match the Atlas cars but then again Kadees do not either.

 

I have found that the boss around the center hole makes the forward screw provided by Protocraft a little short. It most cases, I've cut down the boss to the height of the back of the box and the provided screws have worked fine.

 

On a couple of cars the top of the Protocraft Cupler box was hitting the end sill of the car. I simply just cut off the ridges on the top of the coupler box lid.

 

I paint the inside opening of the coupler boxes before assembly. The light gray of the plastic coupler box is bright if you just paint the outside of the coupler box.

 

Couple of other things I've found so far have been, the rear centering pin on the coupler shank can be filed down to give a little more room inside the coupler box to allow a little more swing of the coupler. Also filing the inside of the coupler shank hole help the coupler move inside the coupler box.

 

George Losse

Although my experience is with mounting the Protocraft box to an Atlas 25,500 tanker,I've found the same to be true-the mounting holes do match Kadee's box but not the Atlas mounting holes,well 1 hole I should say. I "crowded" the 1 screw which wasn't smart,but worked,as I was thinking the holes in the Kadee box & Protocraft boxes are the same,so it must be something I'm doing wrong.Al Hummel

On Tuesday, December 9, 2014 10:43 AM, O Gauge Railroading On Line Forum <alerts@hoop.la> wrote:


Reply By George Losse: Protocraft & Kadee Couplers== To reply by email, write above this line. == Hello, Alan Hummel: We're sending you this notification because you are either following the forum, the content, or the author listed below. New Reply To Topic
| Subject: Protocraft & Kadee Couplers Reply By: George Losse In: Train Forums / 2-Rail SCALE | |

Originally Posted by Keystoned Ed:It was stated that the Protocraft draft gear pocket holes do not have the same spacing as Kadee's center line ones.  Question: is the forward hole identically positioned to that of Kadee?  Mounting them with a metal screw in the forward hole and some super glue to keep the pocket from rotating should stand up to the drawbar forces on our model railroads.Ed,My experience with these couplers so far has been that they do match up to the Kadee mounting holes on the centerline. They DO Not match the Atlas cars but then again Kadees do not either. I have found that the boss around the center hole makes the forward screw provided by Protocraft a little short. It most cases, I've cut down the boss to the height of the back of the box and the provided screws have worked fine. On a couple of cars the top of the Protocraft Cupler box was hitting the end sill of the car. I simply just cut off the ridges on the top of the coupler box lid. I paint the inside opening of the coupler boxes before assembly. The light gray of the plastic coupler box is bright if you just paint the outside of the coupler box. Couple of other things I've found so far have been, the rear centering pin on the coupler shank can be filed down to give a little more room inside the coupler box to allow a little more swing of the coupler. Also filing the inside of the coupler shank hole help the coupler move inside the coupler box. George Losse   View This Reply
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Maybe the cars I used were a bad batch of hole drilling but my experience was the forward hole lined up and the rear hole was about half a hole off of the Protocraft compared to the Kadees? I was using Intermountain cars and I just reamed the hole on the car and through bolted it. But the Kadee boxes were also a half hole off compared to the Protocrafts?

As far as the Atlas cars, as I mentioned in my other post, you can use the Protocraft coupler in the Atlas box if you don't want to drill new hole in your Atlas cars. I choose this route for now but will probably go back later and use the Protocraft boxes for uniformity.

I agree about painting the inside of the boxes. I wish they would have molded them in a matte black, but o'well, at least they made them.

"Are those all metal trucks?"

 

 

Hi Bob, Yeah those are SHS S scale trucks, some kind of die cast metal with coil springs. MTH bought out SHS a couple of years ago but hasn't done much with the product line. S is a lot smaller than O scale( when I first started modeling in S it seemed tiny compared to my O stuff but now it seems normal) but S will fit into spaces that O can't which means more to me these days because I'm tired of maintaining a house with a large space for trains. I find S a lot easier to work with than HO scale yet still small enough for a smaller space. A 40 foot O-27 hi cube scales out to be about a 53 foot S scale car, they are a bit wide so I slice them down the centerline with a radial arm saw and glue them back together, I have a blade that is the thickness of the material needing to be removed so it only takes one cut.....DaveB

I am on the periphery - when I was a kid I always liked the 2-rail aspect of S, and lately have admired the efforts to make S Scale a truly scale endeavor, with scale track, wheels, couplers, and even imported scale brass.  But I am stuck, because I truly like the more massive models in O Scale and 17/64 scale.

 

I am seriously impressed with Protocraft - they seem ready to bring a new level of realism to O Scale.  However, I would truly love to see the lower echelons of our hobby served with some die cast trucks similar to the Kadee HO offerings and those fine S Scale trucks you use.

 

I have to admit, though - I have so much "stuff" I will never be a part of the equation that enables new products to profitably make it in the marketplace.

"I am seriously impressed with Protocraft - they seem ready to bring a new level of realism to O Scale.  However, I would truly love to see the lower echelons of our hobby served with some die cast trucks similar to the Kadee HO offerings and those fine S Scale trucks you use.

 I have to admit, though - I have so much "stuff" I will never be a part of the equation that enables new products to profitably make it in the marketplace."

 

   Hi Bob, Yeah I think protocraft and the P-48 segment is a great way to model O scale in a smaller space, maybe a switching layout with everything built to fine scale standards. I've sold a lot of my O stuff over the years but am still keeping my P-48 wheels and trucks in case I decide to make another O small layout some day. With some searching it's possible to find some pretty nice older O trucks for runner cars, Some old Auel 17/64 trucks had lifting journal box covers so scale waste and oil could be inserted in them :> Also had a set of old Lionel trucks that had all the tiny prototypical writing molded into the sideframes as nice as any modern scale truck and these things were from the 1940's or earlier era.......DaveB 

Yeah - the 700 trucks and couplers were light years ahead of their time.  So far I have not captured any Auels with lifting journal box lids.  I am passively looking.

Moved up for reference