Given all of the activity regarding the purchase of MTH dies in the other scales, has any manufacturer purchased the MTH/Lionel Tinplate dies from MTH?
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The general opinion seems to be no.
The tinplate tooling is not for sale. Mike plans to produce it himself.
Scott Smith
@scott.smith posted:The tinplate tooling is not for sale. Mike plans to produce it himself.
Scott Smith
Scott,
Thanks! That makes sense, as tinplate was one of Mike's first "favorites" in the model railroading hobby, as I recall.
@scott.smith posted:The tinplate tooling is not for sale. Mike plans to produce it himself.
Scott Smith
Hey Scott, we've heard horror stories about the Chinese selling tools for scrap in the past, maybe just urban legends - do we know exactly what remains of all the tooling Mike paid for (and the Chinese are holding?)
Jim
oh my,,hope they find those subway dies,,,,,,,ya right,,,still hold that against mike,,,,,dang
@Jim Waterman posted:Hey Scott, we've heard horror stories about the Chinese selling tools for scrap in the past, maybe just urban legends - do we know exactly what remains of all the tooling Mike paid for (and the Chinese are holding?)
Jim
I assure you Mike knows. Keep in mind he spent large portions of time each year monitoring his investment and production quality.
Scott Smith
@scott.smith posted:I assure you Mike knows. Keep in mind he spent large portions of time each year monitoring his investment and production quality.
Scott Smith
As a long-time buyer of MTH trains and a satisfied customer, I'm not surprised to learn that Mike spent large amounts of his time monitoring MTH production quality.
MELGAR
@scott.smith posted:The tinplate tooling is not for sale. Mike plans to produce it himself.
@Jim Waterman posted:Hey Scott, we've heard horror stories about the Chinese selling tools for scrap in the past, maybe just urban legends - do we know exactly what remains of all the tooling Mike paid for (and the Chinese are holding?)
@scott.smith posted:I assure you Mike knows. Keep in mind he spent large portions of time each year monitoring his investment and production quality.
Since I'm not privy to any inside info but really like reproduction tinplate, here are my thoughts...
One one level, the comments above make sense - MW seems to have a soft spot in his heart for tinplate, and doesn't seem ready to completely walk away. I hope that everything is in good hands, just waiting for the right moment.
On another level, I'm not so sure...
1) Even if Mike carefully monitors the possession of the dies, they're thousands of miles away in a country where the concepts of intellectual property and ownership are "flexible".
2) IMO, using the dies to produce tinplate in China would be a lot of management work (almost as much as producing everything?), so why would he retire and then continue with producing for a sliver of the train market?
3) Since it's such a small subset of the market with low production numbers, could he produce tinplate at a price that would generate enough sales?
4) It seems that a big factor in curtailing production of tinplate was because the market was saturated - how many more paint schemes for a 400E will people buy? Unless different items are produced, which would require a lot of work and expense, is there enough of a market? I'm guessing not.
And then there's parts...
MTH did get samples of new 400E frames just prior to closing (I inspected them). I was told that when and if they produce tinplate, it will likely only be 384’s and 400E’s which were the best sellers. You likely won’t see anymore Ives, Dorfan and AF locos from MTH because the demand vs. cost is just not there.
@Jon G posted:MTH did get samples of new 400E frames just prior to closing (I inspected them). I was told that when and if they produce tinplate, it will likely only be 384’s and 400E’s which were the best sellers. You likely won’t see anymore Ives, Dorfan and AF locos from MTH because the demand vs. cost is just not there.
I would think a series of 384 engines could be a homerun. They run great, pull well, and go with almost anything.
@Jon G posted:MTH did get samples of new 400E frames just prior to closing (I inspected them). I was told that when and if they produce tinplate, it will likely only be 384’s and 400E’s which were the best sellers. You likely won’t see anymore Ives, Dorfan and AF locos from MTH because the demand vs. cost is just not there.
Appreciate the info.
Unfortunately, reducing the range of product won't help the marketability of repro tinplate.
I wonder how much of the demand for those engines is driven by @Jim Waterman's need for donors to build his masterpieces? (Maybe they should be offered in primed/undecorated?)
What is reason why MIKE never produced a reproduction of the LIBERTY LINES 600E locomotive?
Was the Tinplate produced in China or Korea?
@OGRNorman posted:What is reason why MIKE never produced a reproduction of the LIBERTY LINES 600E locomotive?
Look at the MTH tinplate line, there are none with 6 wheel drivers. There were two in the works and someone beat them to it. Had they actually made those two locomotives I am sure there would have been others.
Scott Smith
@Bill DeBrooke posted:Was the Tinplate produced in China or Korea?
At one time or another, both places, I believe.
With the way inflation is taking off any possible future production will most likely come at a substantial price increase.
I appreciate and treasure what I have now.
I would think the patents belong to LIONEL and the agreement with MTH is over. Maybe Lionel got the equipment or dibs on production. Just my thoughts.
Mike was making tinplate long before the Lionel Corporation Tinplate licensing. The tooling is MTH's.
Rusty
As far as I know that is correct, pretty sure Mr. Wolfe got the rights to use the Lionel name on the tinplate reproductions he was already producing. That was part of the lawsuit settlement. When the litigated licensing time frame expired, the price Lionel wanted to renew the agreement was listed as a major obstacle to future production and pretty much ensured the end of LCT.
I would be highly surprised if he let's control of that tooling go to anyone who isn't planning on using it soon. On top of that the market was pretty saturated as discussed. My interpretation of this is that there will not be any movement on the tinplate tooling for a few years, but what do I know?
I really wish we could have seen some updates to the tinplate line to gain more interest. A camelback or a Pacific seemed like a natural fit, or a mallet made from the guts of a pair of 263e engines would have been huge.
Time will tell. I wish Mr. Wolfe well and I hope for success of the next phase of MTH in the post-Wolfe era.
I understand that the individual parts would not be run unless Mike had an order for the entire item. Example: Any individual part for a 400, could not be ordered unless the 400 loco & tender where ordered. At that point, Mike could order as many of the parts used in the production as spares as he wanted. This would be critical for keeping us & Jim supplied w/ motors and detail parts for any length of time . On top of that is the 25% increase of import duty from China brought on by the Trump negotiations. The above is what I have been told by someone in the know. We ( JLM & I ), have been busting our humps trying to get the MEW parts into production. With the passing of George Tebolt recently, Parts availability is getting strained even more. My 2cents worth. Harry 
speaking of updating,,,,operating box couplers and an uncoupling track would be great,and subway cars,,,,,,,still mad about that one!
A decade or so ago Lionel had made some interesting tinplate trains using the Lionel brand. Now might be the time for Lionel to consider reissuing some of those tinplate trains, particularly if Mike decides not to go forward.
Some might even posit that total retirement without the continuing push and pull of work demands has value at a certain age!
@Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:A decade or so ago Lionel had made some interesting tinplate trains using the Lionel brand. Now might be the time for Lionel to consider reissuing some of those tinplate trains, particularly if Mike decides not to go forward.
Some might even posit that total retirement without the continuing push and pull of work demands has value at a certain age!
Those trains are why you never saw MTH Tinplate with six driving wheels. The problem was and still is Lionel doesn't understand tinplate. They built two of the most scale looking standard gauge engines ever and they were a flop. The Hiawatha was beautiful.
The Vanderbilt was scale looking as well but looked rather dull for a tinplate set. The thing to remember about tinplate it's not about looking like the prototype. Tinplate is about color.
This is my second time with a Standard Gauge Vanderbilt. I sold my original because it ran like crap; like a postwar engine it had one speed-FAST. So why did I buy it all over again? I bought my Vanderbilt and Hiawatha under the conditions that both had to have Cruise Control added. As far as I know my two sets are the only two sets that have cruise control installed. Mike Reagan installed it after a long conversation with Jon Z on how to modify the locomotive to make the Cruise Commander work. The shells on these engines are heavy and thick plus the large motor makes this a recipe for overheating. Another criticism is the sound file itself; one chuff per revolution and sounds like a drum beating.
Had MTH made these for starters, we wouldn't have a dark gray Vanderbilt; instead we would have the Blue Streak and the Red Comet. The colors would have knocked the socks off a tinplate collector. The cruise control would have been apart of the Proto 2 package. The locomotives would chuffed in sync with the smoke unit instead always on.
I am sure that the Hiawatha would have also been offered in other colors as well. Once MTH had 6 wheel drivers for tinplate than whole new world of options would have been opened up.
Scott Smith
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@Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:A decade or so ago Lionel had made some interesting tinplate trains using the Lionel brand. Now might be the time for Lionel to consider reissuing some of those tinplate trains, particularly if Mike decides not to go forward.
Some might even posit that total retirement without the continuing push and pull of work demands has value at a certain age!
What trains are you referring to? The Hiawatha and Commodore Vanderbilt (mentioned above) were early 2000s.
In recent years, Lionel made a couple of "tinplate inspired" trains, but AFAIK all of the actual tinplate was manufactured by MTH under a license and sold as "Lionel Corporation tinplate".
One more problem with these Lionel tinplate offerings. Who told Lionel that they need to add a "decorative piece" above the coupler on the tender. That piece means that the only thing you can run with it are the passenger cars that came with it or the much smaller 500 series freight cars that look silly with such a huge locomotive.
Scott Smith
@Rusty Traque posted:Mike was making tinplate long before the Lionel Corporation Tinplate licensing. The tooling is MTH's.
Rusty
The licensing allowed MTH to mark the trains as Lionel, which probably increased their desirability for some buyers. Other than that, I don't think there were any differences in the designs. For example, the pre-licensing 400E loco has "MTH" on the cab, while the LCT version has the circle L logo.
Personally, I just want to run a retro-style tinplate train - doesn't matter what the lettering says.
You can see my Hiawatha running at the 3:14 mark in the video. Please note the Hiawatha set only came with 4 cars, I have two extras running with mine.
This video from February has the Vanderbilt in it check the 9:03 mark.
The passenger cars on both of the these set are beautiful. I have also managed to acquire the unpainted prototype for the Vanderbilt cars. I am still trying to make up my mind what to do with them. Do I paint them for my N&W 400E or do I clear coat them and leave them as is.
Scott Smith
Lionel made two O gauge tinplate sets, one freight and one passenger about 12-13 or so years ago. Labeled Lionel so probably not made by MTH. So-called prewar celebration although I’m not sure that Lionel used that term.
@Landsteiner posted:Lionel made two O gauge tinplate sets, one freight and one passenger about 12-13 or so years ago. Labeled Lionel so probably not made by MTH. So-called prewar celebration although I’m not sure that Lionel used that term.
Yes they were a flop as well. No smoke, no command, no cruise and the worse part they used flat paint on the cars and locomotive.
Scott Smith
Please also keep in mind that at the end of the agreement between Lionel and MTH, MTH had to stop selling trains with the Lionel name. MTH still had product in their warehouse. A dealer stepped up agreed to purchase the remaining tinplate under the Lionel name. However a part of that agreement was that MTH would take a time out producing tinplate and allow that dealer the sell down the purchased inventory.
Scott Smith
@Landsteiner posted:Lionel made two O gauge tinplate sets, one freight and one passenger about 12-13 or so years ago. Labeled Lionel so probably not made by MTH. So-called prewar celebration although I’m not sure that Lionel used that term.
To provide a complete answer to your question, 13-15 years ago Lionel offered four traditionally powered Prewar Celebration O gauge sets as follows:
6-51009 "269E" freight outfit. Equipped with Trainsounds. Unfortunately, it was painted with flat paint.
6-51010 "246E" passenger outfit. Equipped with Trainsounds. This set was painted with glossy paint
6-51014 "291W" Red Comet passenger outfit. Equipped with air whistle. Glossy red paint. Nice outfit.
6-31771 "267W" Flying Yankee passenger outfit. Equipped with air whistle. Glossy gray gunmetal paint (that is actually gunmetal!) and chrome plating.
It can be said that the team at Lionel at the time went through a learning curve. From my recollection of discussions with Matt Ashba, there was (still is) a belief that MTH tinplate is too bright and too glossy relative to the originals. Regrettably, they went too far the other way with the 269E freight outfit. All four sets run nicely with their conventional motors. The Red Comet and Flying Yankee are very creditable reissues with good sounding air whistles.
In Standard gauge, the series also included a lovely set of reproduction "101 Electric Rapid Transit" Summer Trolleys (one powered, one unpowered) with a very artfully made reproduction of the motor found in the originals. JLM later made an accurate set of reproduction passengers to go with. Nice running, handsome, stately looking outfit.
Parenthetically, it might also be fairly stated that a distinct minority (which includes Mike Wolf, himself) prefer to have their modern tinplate powered conventionally as the originals (no smoke, no cruise, no electronics) with an authentic 'feel'. Time will tell, but the modern traditional tinplate may prove to be the more repairable over the long haul.
Hope this helps.
Bob
@Bob Bubeck posted:Parenthetically, it might also be fairly stated that a distinct minority (which includes Mike Wolf, himself) prefer to have their modern tinplate powered conventionally as the originals (no smoke, no cruise, no electronics) with an authentic 'feel'. Time will tell, but the modern traditional tinplate may prove to be the more repairable over the long haul.
Nothing stopping one from turning off the smoke and sound and running anything from MTH conventionally.
As for being more “repairable” if all you’re interested in is conventional operation, it’s simple to rip out a fried controller board and install a reversing unit and a rectifier.
@scott.smith posted:Those trains are why you never saw MTH Tinplate with six driving wheels. The problem was and still is Lionel doesn't understand tinplate. They built two of the most scale looking standard gauge engines ever and they were a flop. The Hiawatha was beautiful...The Vanderbilt was scale looking as well but looked rather dull for a tinplate set. The thing to remember about tinplate it's not about looking like the prototype. Tinplate is about color.
This is my second time with a Standard Gauge Vanderbilt. I sold my original because it ran like crap; like a postwar engine it had one speed-FAST. So why did I buy it all over again? I bought my Vanderbilt and Hiawatha under the conditions that both had to have Cruise Control added. As far as I know my two sets are the only two sets that have cruise control installed. Mike Reagan installed it after a long conversation with Jon Z on how to modify the locomotive to make the Cruise Commander work... I am sure that the Hiawatha would have also been offered in other colors as well. Once MTH had 6 wheel drivers for tinplate than whole new world of options would have been opened up.
Scott Smith
Thanks Scott! That was a very informative and helpful explanation. I saw each of these sets at Lionel in Chesterfield, MI, and they were both gorgeous. But, they were both on a display shelf. It's great that you understood the limitations, and what improvements might be possible, as they are stunning pieces.
"To provide a complete answer to your question, 13-15 years ago Lionel offered four traditionally powered Prewar Celebration O gauge sets as follows:"
Thanks for the correction Bob. I actually have all four sets, but don't keep records on when I purchased stuff, and I had forgotten about the Red Comet and Flying Yankee. Mea culpa. I kind of like them as is, mostly for display. I wouldn't have minded TMCC or Legacy, but I definitely wouldn't use smoke (bad for the lungs and heart 
)
In any case, the point of my reply, however inaccurate and incomplete in the details was to refute the erroneous claim that Lionel couldn't make tinplate without MTH's help, if they saw that as a product in demand.
@Mallard4468 posted:What trains are you referring to? The Hiawatha and Commodore Vanderbilt (mentioned above) were early 2000s.
In recent years, Lionel made a couple of "tinplate inspired" trains, but AFAIK all of the actual tinplate was manufactured by MTH under a license and sold as "Lionel Corporation tinplate".
I was principally referring to the Hiawatha and Commodore Vanderbilt, but hadn't "mastered" the entire Lionel tinplate line. I also didn't specifically recall the year of issue, hence, "a decade or so ago". Having seen both of the above train sets on display at the Lionel Layout, I thought that they were gorgeous. Since my interest was MTH tinplate and then Lionel Corporation Tinplate, I just hoped, at the time, that MTH or Lionel Corporation Tinplate would also make similar items. Finally, the principal thought was that perhaps Lionel could re-enter the market with tinplate items in the near term. Scott has added a significant and thought provoking overlay to that possibility.
Another little nugget of information. These Lionel prewar celebration series tinplate sets were being planned during a period when MTH and Lionel were not on the best of terms, to say the least, during the drawn out lawsuit, and before the Lionel Corporation licensing agreement, so MTH probably had zero role in Lionel's manufacture of the sets specified by Bob Bubeck above.
As Bob pointed out, these repros were attempts at faithful reproduction of the prewar models in almost all respects, which some folks prefer, including AC open frame motors. The could have used TMCC, but chose not to in deference to those who prefer that even their primitive electronics and motors reflect the original model. MTH used to offer tinplate with open frame AC motors, but stopped when they found most of their fans preferred PS 2.0. Different strokes for different folks .
@rplst8 posted:Nothing stopping one from turning off the smoke and sound and running anything from MTH conventionally.
As for being more “repairable” if all you’re interested in is conventional operation, it’s simple to rip out a fried controller board and install a reversing unit and a rectifier.
I have some conventional MTH/LCT tinplate and some PS-2. The type of control depended on what was available when I found the item - still not really sure which one I prefer. My original thinking was that it would be easier to find parts for a conventional loco, but I've come to doubt that. Since the PS versions use can motors, which seem to be robust, reliable, and common, @rplst8 makes an excellent point about a way to recover if the expensive electronics go south. Then there's that pesky problem of chewing up gears...
@Landsteiner posted:and I had forgotten about the Red Comet and Flying Yankee. Mea culpa.
How could you forget about the Flying Yankee? Oh Magnetta! I tried embedding but it's blocked by the account holder.
I am also in the minority camp that favors conventional operation. My prewar and postwar collection is the primary cause. Yes the features are nice, but just not for me. I want to run the trains and sometimes find the long startup sequences frustrating. I know you can turn these off. Also I’m not interested in the additional investment for all the command control equipment. I have some repro’s such as Williams standard 381E, 408E and MTH 400E. Last year it took me a while to find a City of Denver conventional only made by MTH and licensed under Lionel Corp Tinplate. That’s what is great about this hobby, something for everyone.
@rplst8 posted:Nothing stopping one from turning off the smoke and sound and running anything from MTH conventionally.
As for being more “repairable” if all you’re interested in is conventional operation, it’s simple to rip out a fried controller board and install a reversing unit and a rectifier.
There is a "back and forth" that crops up on the OGR board from time to time. When it comes to new tinplate, there are those that prefer to have the innards faithfully reproduced as well as the exterior. Can motors do not have the growl and the whiff of ozone of traditional tinplate and some prefer air whistles to electronic sounds. The contemporary tinplate appears to some as soulless appliances -- modern trains dressed up as old ones -- compared to the character intrinsic to the traditionally powered trains with open frame three pole motors.
As for repairs, if one wishes to restore failed DCS PS2/PS3 functions, the sourcing of parts is and will be a challenge. The conventional trains can almost always be repaired. Let's see where we are with this in 5 to 10 years.
Respectfully,
Bob
@Landsteiner posted:"To provide a complete answer to your question, 13-15 years ago Lionel offered four traditionally powered Prewar Celebration O gauge sets as follows:"
Thanks for the correction Bob. <snip>
Not a correction. Just a clarification.
Respectfully,
Bob
@Bob Bubeck posted:There is a "back and forth" that crops up on the OGR board from time to time. When it comes to new tinplate, there are those that prefer to have the innards faithfully reproduced as well as the exterior. Can motors do not have the growl and the whiff of ozone of traditional tinplate and some prefer air whistles to electronic sounds. The contemporary tinplate appears to some as soulless appliances -- modern trains dressed up as old ones -- compared to the character intrinsic to the traditionally powered trains with open frame three pole motors.
Fair enough, if you're going for that nostalgic sound and smell, a modern can motored unit probably won't cut it. When I want that that sort of thing, I pull out my Gilbert Flyer stuff so I get where you're coming from. However, IIRC there was a lot of ire from tinplate collectors when MTH started making tinplate reproductions though, as it reduced the value of the older original items. Or so I've been told, as while I appreciate tinplate (old and new) it's not something that I've collected and a lot of that part of the hobby predates my entry into the 3-rail side of things.
Maybe switching from open frame motors to command controlled can motors was a way of separating the two so the really original stuff would retain it's value.
As for repairs, if one wishes to restore failed DCS PS2/PS3 functions, the sourcing of parts is and will be a challenge. The conventional trains can almost always be repaired. Let's see where we are with this in 5 to 10 years.
I agree, time will only tell but as we're getting 100 years on from the originals and close to 20 years from more recent offerings, I think the open frame parts will continue to be harder to come by.
@rplst8 posted:I agree, time will only tell but as we're getting 100 years on from the originals and close to 20 years from more recent offerings, I think the open frame parts will continue to be harder to come by.
I know I won't be around in 100 years, so that's not an issue. 
I'll be happy if my current crop of trains lasts another 20 years...
I agree with John. The availability of replacement parts for my body is a more pressing concern than for my trains. Pat B.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I know I won't be around in 100 years, so that's not an issue.
I meant that we're over 100 years since some of these open frame motors were made, so the question is - will parts become more available or less? Bob was questioning the availability of repair parts for modern electronics. I guess I'm just saying, I don't think either is a lock.
@MartyE posted:How could you forget about the Flying Yankee? Oh Magnetta! I tried embedding but it's blocked by the account holder.
3 friends have the new scale version and each had a motor failure. And turned out the motors were unavailable. Not sure if that has changed.
Replacement parts will be available in the future. Mike is not done with tinplate and parts will be manufactured as these are produced. The only reason the proto3 boards are delayed is the chip shortage. I spoke with one of the partners of the new MTH parts company. He told me that they will not even find out when new chips would be available until October.
I was in Andy's office a couple of years back and he was telling me it was getting too expensive to produce traditional and command trains at the same time. They were not getting enough conventional trains orders the justify their production and they were causing everything to cost more. "People wanting traditional trains want it to sound like the originals." I said "then give them what they want, change the sound files; record the engine sounds of a traditional locomotives with air whistles and give the traditionalist original sounds. Andy paused and then said "you know we could do that." "Yes, I know you can do that."
@scott.smith posted:I said "then give them what they want, change the sound files; record the engine sounds of a traditional locomotives with air whistles and give the traditionalist original sounds. Andy paused and then said "you know we could do that." "Yes, I know you can do that."
Did they ever do that? The only locomotive I know that has is the Scale J from Lionel a few years ago. You know the one that actually was painted with the correct color stripe. LOL!
Still hoping for a 611 redo in the next few years.
@MartyE posted:Did they ever do that? The only locomotive I know that has is the Scale J from Lionel a few years ago. You know the one that actually was painted with the correct color stripe. LOL!
Still hoping for a 611 redo in the next few years.
Not yet. My discussion was after the last MTH/Lionel Corporation catalog came out. He seemed intrigued with the idea. It would keep production costs down which has been a problem with the limited tinplate runs.
Scott Smith
@Rich Wiemann posted:I am also in the minority camp that favors conventional operation.... I want to run the trains and sometimes find the long startup sequences frustrating. I know you can turn these off. Also I’m not interested in the additional investment for all the command control equipment... That’s what is great about this hobby, something for everyone.
I like both command and conventional in both O Gauge and in Tinplate. I generally gravitate to command in tinplate steam because I enjoy the smoke. In O Gauge, the conventional steam locomotives generally smoke, so the command option is often not a necessity.
Quite frankly though, I do also enjoy the command features in Tinplate on many occasions. However, the grandchildren do love the sounds of the command Tinplate. Like "Tim The Tool Man's" motto is "More Power!", their implied motto is "More Noise!".
I wanted to talk with Mike about some of my tinplate ideas; but he has been so focused on the parts venture and getting the issues resolved from the move. here are some of my ideas.
1) I would like him to make some 300 series passenger cars in purple. He should call this set "The Wolf" and name each car after his wife, daughter, mom and dad. This would be a way to honor those who have been around him and supported his model train venture. There was already a smaller steam engine in purple this would give those customers a chance to add passengers. I would think a 318E engine would be a nice thing to add to that.
2)I would like to see a larger State Set 381, a super 381 or Brute in purple. This set should be called "The Big Bad Wolf" once again honoring his family with the car names.
3)I would love to see an Ives 3245 in Ives red, copper like the Prosperity Special and Chrome. All traditional Ives colors in a totally new offering.
4)The same thing colors can be done with 3236's.
5)American Freedom Train 400E
Scott Smith
@scott.smith posted:..."People wanting traditional trains want it to sound like the originals." I said "then give them what they want, change the sound files; record the engine sounds of a traditional locomotives with air whistles and give the traditionalist original sounds. Andy paused and then said "you know we could do that." "Yes, I know you can do that."
That's brilliant, out-of-the-box, twisted, and kind of sad all at the same time. Still trying to decide if I like the idea or not, but it's worth considering.
@scott.smith posted:I wanted to talk with Mike about some of my tinplate ideas; but he has been so focused on the parts venture and getting the issues resolved from the move. here are some of my ideas.
1) I would like him to make some 300 series passenger cars in purple. He should call this set "The Wolf" and name each car after his wife, daughter, mom and dad. This would be a way to honor those who have been around him and supported his model train venture. There was already a smaller steam engine in purple this would give those customers a chance to add passengers. I would think a 318E engine would be a nice thing to add to that.
2)I would like to see a larger State Set 381, a super 381 or Brute in purple. This set should be called "The Big Bad Wolf" once again honoring his family with the car names.
3)I would love to see an Ives 3245 in Ives red, copper like the Prosperity Special and Chrome. All traditional Ives colors in a totally new offering.
4)The same thing colors can be done with 3236's.
5)American Freedom Train 400E
Scott Smith
If you have his ear, here's my 2 cents...
Won't spend money on anything that's too "MTHy", i.e., purple to celebrate MTH. Purple might be OK in moderation, but not for an entire set.
When considering what to produce, take some cues from the stuff that people pay Jim Waterman to make, such as McKeen cars, big engines, GG1s, modern passenger cars, F3s, etc. In other words, NEW and different tinplate.
Does MW ever read these threads?
@scott.smith posted:<snip>
I was in Andy's office a couple of years back and he was telling me it was getting too expensive to produce traditional and command trains at the same time. They were not getting enough conventional trains orders the justify their production and they were causing everything to cost more. "People wanting traditional trains want it to sound like the originals." I said "then give them what they want, change the sound files; record the engine sounds of a traditional locomotives with air whistles and give the traditionalist original sounds. Andy paused and then said "you know we could do that." "Yes, I know you can do that."
That might work, for the hearing impaired. 
I'm afraid that would be just attempting an end run around the central emotive issue.
Respectfully,
Bob
@Mallard4468 posted:If you have his ear, here's my 2 cents...
Won't spend money on anything that's too "MTHy", i.e., purple to celebrate MTH. Purple might be OK in moderation, but not for an entire set.
When considering what to produce, take some cues from the stuff that people pay Jim Waterman to make, such as McKeen cars, big engines, GG1s, modern passenger cars, F3s, etc. In other words, NEW and different tinplate.
Does MW ever read these threads?
I would love to see that as well. What are the odds of Mike spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop new tooling that will be years before they pay for themselves? Mike loves tinplate but he is trying to retire. We need to think in the box with what can to produced with current tooling. We don't have to like it, but it is reality.
Scott Smith
@Mallard4468 posted:That's brilliant, out-of-the-box, twisted, and kind of sad all at the same time. Still trying to decide if I like the idea or not, but it's worth considering.
Here is the problem, the manufacturers in China are not happy with limited production runs. The last tinplate items became difficult to run since the production numbers were so small. Part of that is from making both Command and Traditional options. Is the current generation of train buyers going to buy more tinplate or less? The younger train hobbyist isn't buying tinplate. The dead hobbyist buy even less.
Scott Smith
I'll take what I can get but I like prototypical colors and definitely PS 3.0. I'd buy a black or gray 400e, 392e, 390e, 318e, etc. I know most of you lived through the modern tinplate era and are bored with these offerings but I'm a johnny-come-lately and I missed out the first time.
Did the Brute and Super 381 sell well enough for MTH to make a profit? I would have to think for either to be produced with today's prices you would be talking close to $2000 per engine. What about the Showroom passenger cars that sold for $550 per car? You may be talking close to $1000 per car? That's a ton of money in a limited market.
Another one of the issues for MTH is that many of the people that screamed I only want traditional, didn't order any of the trains. Most of the remaining tinplate on shelves left is traditional.
@Dwayne B posted:Did the Brute and Super 381 sell well enough for MTH to make a profit? I would have to think for either to be produced with today's prices you would be talking close to $2000 per engine. What about the Showroom passenger cars that sold for $550 per car? You may be talking close to $1000 per car? That's a ton of money in a limited market.
That's an excellent point. I bought the first green Brute when it came out. There was nothing out there that was even of similar size. When the cars came out they were huge 30 inches each. At that time I only had a 9 by 9 track at home. 4 cars times 30 plus the engine and guess what? It doesn't fit. I sold it on Ebay after owning it a year for $2400.00. I wish I still had it now, I have room for it at the club.
Scott Smith
@scott.smith posted:I would love to see that as well. What are the odds of Mike spending hundreds of thousands of dollars to develop new tooling that will be years before they pay for themselves? Mike loves tinplate but he is trying to retire. We need to think in the box with what can to produced with current tooling. We don't have to like it, but it is reality.
Scott Smith
Completely agree with you regarding the cost of new tooling and Mike's desire to retire. But I think that the market for items made with existing tooling has been pretty much saturated for years to come, which will make it difficult to sell enough volume to justify the effort. My suggestions are for things that I think might bring in more buyers and be profitable to sell.
@scott.smith posted:Is the current generation of train buyers going to buy more tinplate or less? The younger train hobbyist isn't buying tinplate. The dead hobbyist buy even less.Scott Smith
I was wondering about this topic earlier today. I suspect that the tinplate enthusiasts are declining in number over time, and, the average age of tinplate enthusiasts is gradually inching up.
The people that I knew as a child who had tinplate were my parents age. And, most of the people my parents age who had model railroads owned and operated postwar O gauge trains, or Gilbert's American Flyer. Obviously a limited sample size, but by that time, the major manufacturers had discontinued producing tinplate trains for other gauges, so the observation is amply supported by the facts.
I suspect a lot of us who are current tinplate enthusiasts likely had postwar trains growing up, and fell in love with tinplate later in time. When you add a saturated tinplate marketplace with a declining group of potential customers, that doesn't bode well for demand.
@scott.smith posted:"People wanting traditional trains want it to sound like the originals." I said "then give them what they want, change the sound files; record the engine sounds of a traditional locomotives with air whistles and give the traditionalist original sounds. Andy paused and then said "you know we could do that." "Yes, I know you can do that."
This isn't as far out of an idea as it first appears. Automobile manufacturers have been playing this trick for a while now. Some install resonators in the exhaust that are below the floorpan or dash to give the engine more of a rumbly sound. Others just pipe augmented sounds through the stereo system even when the radio is turned off!
Actually, I opted for the Traditional style motor in my train because I correctly guessed that it would be easier to repair many years down the road. Some 20 years later I have had no problems with the traditional motor and I am now hearing stories of people who have burned out parts of circuit boards on their contemporary motors and having difficulty getting them repaired.
Wow - just catching up on this thread. Saw a couple of things I thought I should clarify: traditional vs conventional.
Andy said that less than 10% of all tinplate sales over the last 10 years were traditional.
I use the traditional bild a loco drives for my big Challengers and the Harmon Hudson. I bought out all but a couple of the remaining inventory of MTH traditional BAL spares over 2 years ago. They are GONE.
And so I asked the MTH folks back at the meet I vaguely remember called YORK - what would it take to get more BAL's. Answer was that the Chinese said minimum order quantity 10,000! So that ain't gonna happen!
I can tell you by the trouble I have had with almost ever new drive I bought - the traditional tooling was worn out a while ago - interferences between armiture and field, (I have had to literally turn down armatures).
And talking with Mike back then (probably early 2019), new production of tinplate was possible, would probably be on a limited and sporadic basis. Other MTH reps said don't expect anything for at least 5 years.
My original strategy was to buy up plain jane 400's and part them out, but as most of you know that value proposition went out the window this past year, as they went from $400- $500 to about $1000 a loco. Doesn't make economic sense any more.
So with my own builds, with exception of the Harmon locos (and I'm just about out of BAL's at the moment, I'm designing everything new (GG1, McKeens, F7's, T1, Zephyr) with my own drives, using motors and gears that can be bought commercially using standard parts. Thank goodness for Harry Henning and his wheel production, and a couple of the machine shops that I work with that machine drive wheels and other parts.
Point of clarification: Mike can still make any of the tinplate items, might have 'MTH Lines" on the Lionel an AF, but he picked up the trade mark for Ives. The Lionel deal allowed him to go back to using Lionel and AF badges and box designs.
And my prediction: a LOT of this stuff was made by Mike over the past 40 years or so. You'll see it coming back in auctions every month for the next 10 years.
Jim Waterman
@Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:I suspect a lot of us who are current tinplate enthusiasts likely had postwar trains growing up, and fell in love with tinplate later in time. When you add a saturated tinplate marketplace with a declining group of potential customers, that doesn't bode well for demand.
I agree that seems likely over time. The demand is strong right now though. Any MTH 400E with PS 3.0 goes for at least $1000 on ebay.
Just like Mr. Muffins is doing custom runs in O, Al at Sidetrack should do a custom run 400E (or whatever). Why not? If he doesn't get the minimum orders, then it doesn't get made. I bet it would get made though.
@Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:I was wondering about this topic earlier today. I suspect that the tinplate enthusiasts are a declining in number over time, and, the average age of tinplate enthusiasts is gradually inching up.
The people that I knew as a child who had tinplate were my parents age. And, most of the people my parents age who had model railroads owned and operated postwar O gauge trains, or Gilbert's American Flyer. Obviously a limited sample size, but by that time, the major manufacturers had discontinued producing tinplate trains for other gauges, so the observation is amply supported by the facts.
I suspect a lot of us who are current tinplate enthusiasts likely had postwar trains growing up, and fell in love with tinplate later in time. When you add a saturated tinplate marketplace with a declining group of potential customers, that doesn't bode well for demand.
Conversely, I got into tinplate much later, and my first train was an mpc era starter set. I got into tinplate after seeing it in mth catalogs and didn't know anyone who had tinplate growing up. I put if off for a long time and then went in really hard. I have never really been interested in the post war era offerings. I certainly agree that the market is small, and unfortunately it also got saturated with multiple paint schemes of the same thing over and over.
i semi agree,,but not an other 400 whatever,,,,,alot of us have smaller spaces and 385/1835 380 would be great,the starter set,,from what several dealers told me,was they flew out the door,,my 2cents
@Jim Waterman posted:...Point of clarification: Mike can still make any of the tinplate items, might have 'MTH Lines" on the Lionel an AF, but he picked up the trade mark for Ives. The Lionel deal allowed him to go back to using Lionel and AF badges and box designs.Jim Waterman
Thanks Jim! At your convenience, could you expand on the above very interesting observation? At the present time, can Mike use the Lionel and American Flyer names and badges on trains, or just box designs? Also, if you know, has the "Lionel deal" you describe -- likely a reference to the settlement agreement, and, a separate, licensing agreement that is part of the settlement agreement -- expired with respect to MTH's use of trade names, trademarks, etc.?
Dennis, I think you misread that. He means that MTH can not use the Lionel or American Flyer name (on trains or boxes). MTH can produce the trains but they would have to be MTH Lines like the old Tinplate Traditions.
Also, I've always been told that the deal between MTH & Lionel was not part of a settlement. That is a myth. It was a separate licensing agreement between MTH & Lionel.
Thanks Mike. That is what I suspected was the case. To your knowledge, was the licensing agreement part of the settlement?
I agree some smaller items may work. I'd like to see the 605 Baggage cars made to match various sets in green or blue or gray to match and more Reindeer named coaches to go with the 249E Christmas set. Judging by prices, a reissue of that Christmas set may work too. Been looking forever for the COMET coach.
@Dennis GS-4 N & W No. 611 posted:Thanks Mike. That is what I suspected was the case. To your knowledge, was the licensing agreement part of the settlement?
No.
As a follow up, given that the tinplate licensing agreement between MTH and Lionel happened more than a decade ago, this may be of interest. The above posts refreshed my recollection that the leadership of Lionel may have been interested in moving on to a more cooperative era following the conclusion of the litigation. Selected portions taken from the link below:
"... [I'm] very pleased that M.T.H. and Lionel will be working together on this new Lionel and American Flyer tinplate line,ﾔ said Jerry Calabrese, Lionel CEO. Calabrese went on to say, [In] times as difficult and challenging as these, I hope [it's} reassuring to all model train fans that both our companies will be joining forces to write a productive new chapter in our hobby's history. There is no better way to express our mutual belief and commitment to the future of model railroading than for Lionel and M.T.H. to collaborate on something as imaginative and exciting as these new Tinplate products.
This collaboration builds on what we've accomplished with our Tinplate Traditions line over the past three decades, noted M.T.H. President Mike Wolf. It is no secret to those who know me that Lionel's history has inspired me since my youth. Wolf went on to say, By working together, our two companies will be able to offer products that even more faithfully evoke the beauty and artistry of the toys that Lionel and American Flyer turned out in the prewar years, as well as make those trains available to a wider audience.
Wolf added, Putting aside the differences our firms have had over the years, Jerry and I have always recognized how much synergy exists between Lionel and M.T.H. Together we sat down and worked out this agreement with the express goal of expanding on both firms' longstanding commitments to grow our hobby.
