Understanding The York Train meet

If you want Postwar, go to the member halls (Blue, Silver, Red, White). There will be some Postwar in the dealer halls (Purple and Orange) but that is mostly modern stuff. 

I am mostly a modern guy that has grown to love and appreciate Postwar. Leave some for me...

What about the Brown hall?  I think that is also a dealer hall...no?????

Rick

RICKC posted:

What about the Brown hall?  I think that is also a dealer hall...no?????

Rick

Brown hall was closed several years ago. 

If at all possible, it would be best if you could attend on Friday. Sellers are told not to pack up early, but a good number of them do on Saturday. Also, there is some postwar in the dealer halls, as well.  I think most of the great deals are gone by Saturday (some would say gone by late Thursday). If I were looking for postwar in a limited time frame, my visit order might be red hall first, then blue, then silver, then white. 

Thanks guys.  I have to watch my spending so there should be at least one or two items left for you, SJC.....LOL

If you want the old stuff the Blue and Silver are probably the place to start, the last would be the Orange,and if you are going Saturday you can't waste time ,but you can save money. Also if you see it and you want it buy it. Good luck.

I've always had mixed feelings about when is a better time to attend a train meet.  As the saying goes, "The early bird gets the worm".   But what about the sellers who don't want to take home too much stuff ?   Can better deals be had near the end of the meet ?   Of course the pickings are slimmer then.  

Occasionally, on Saturday some dealers and members start dealing so they don't have to take all the stuff back with them.

From someone who lives 3000 miles away.... Saturday was a waste. Thurs or Friday are the days to go. I've been twice and don't see myself going back. Sure it was cool to check it once or twice, but I have to ship what I buy so there goes the great deals. If I lived a couple hours away....sure absolutely. It's really not something you can take it all in with just one day.... especially Saturday.

Check the meet flyer. Dealer halls are open 2 hours later on Saturday than the member halls. This is new. Plan your day accordingly. Member halls first, then dealer halls.

If you are looking for hard to find or rare post war the best time and place are the bandit meets on Monday and Tuesday. For more common post war it really doesn't matter as there is so much of it to choose from. For deals Saturday is best. The isles are pretty empty and the dealers still manning their tables are willing to deal. Friday morning is when the halls are packed and items easy to miss through the crowds.

Pete

If I had to choose one day, then it would be Friday.   Friday has the longest hours, I think 9 to 5, and pretty much everyone is still there and motivated.  On Saturday some table holders come in fairly late and start packing up.   Other table holders packed up and left Friday evening, arranging for the person next to them to cover their table(s) with merchandise.  Obviously, items purchased on Thursday and Friday will reduce what's available on Saturday.   

But, going on Saturday is better than nothing at all.  You just have to move really fast through the aisles.

Dan Padova posted:

   But what about the sellers who don't want to take home too much stuff ?  

My own feeling is, what is taking home a engine or three compared to the other 500 lbs of stuff you have to pack up? In fact, some sellers seem to WANT to take EVERYTHING home, based on their prices. Although I've only seen two Saturdays at the York meet, I think "Saturday bargains" are not worth the motel cost or cost of gas.

I agree that a seller at a flea market has a end-of-day incentive to get rid of a dining room table.

Have been there many times and agree that Thursday and Friday are the days where you will see the best selection.  Saturday always impressed me as a "wind down day". If you are in a buying mode York is a great train meet to find just about anything O gauge.  I have suggested that the ED open the dealer halls to the public on both of those days to maximize gate revenue but it remains to be seen whether or not they will heed that advise. 

I've always had mixed feelings about when is a better time to attend a train meet.  As the saying goes, "The early bird gets the worm".   But what about the sellers who don't want to take home too much stuff ?   Can better deals be had near the end of the meet ?   Of course the pickings are slimmer then.  

IMHO, both views are perfectly valid. I guess which view is correct for each of us depends on what we'd like to get at York.

Looking for specific items that are less common? - then be there for the beginning, and focus on finding what you are after. Don't waste time with casual browsing. You have competition, there are other people looking for that same item.

More into bargain hunting? - there will be some items that people are trying to clear out quickly at reduced prices, so you still might want to get there early. But if you go late, you might get some "I don't want to bring this home" bargains.

I am in the first group. If I cannot get there for the opening of any show, its not worth attending for me.

I have suggested that the ED open the dealer halls to the public on both of those days to maximize gate revenue but it remains to be seen whether or not they will heed that advise

Hopefully they will not. There has to be some advantage to being a member. For the TCA members who are into current stuff, being first in the dealer halls is a concrete advantage.

Look at the Lionel Warehouse sale. There is a public business giving first dibs to the MEMBERS of a private organization. Where is the outrage over that?

If they open to the public on Thursday then run the risk of alienating members.  The EDTCA in my opinion will have to provide a day that is members only.  Why else be in the club?  Yes my primary participation in the TCA is the York meet.  While I do enjoy the member halls my majority of participation is the dealer halls.  If Thursday is open to the public it's quite possible I'll no longer have much incentive to retain my membership.  I'm more than happy with the arrangement they made to balance the member and public time.  I think at least for now they made a good compromise.  I'll wait and see how it all works out before getting worrying about it.  I applaud the EDTCA for trying.  They deserve a lot of credit for making a change and probably no matter which way they went someone always thinks their idea is better.

As far as Saturday is concerned, the dealers, maybe not all, but many asked for this so they should be strictly held to the 4pm closing time.  Saturday will be the most popular day for the public so take advantage of it.

Look at the Lionel Warehouse sale. There is a public business giving first dibs to the MEMBERS of a private organization. Where is the outrage over that?

Interestingly enough we went last year as LCCA members.  And while we did "think" we were getting in early, Lionel had a friends and family time approx an hour before the LCCA time.  All I have to say is Lionel has a lot of friends and family.  Folks were walking out of there before the LCCA time with dolly full of product before we even stepped in the door.

Marty, couldn't have said it better.  My sentiments EXACTLY!  

David

And while we did "think" we were getting in early, Lionel had a friends and family time approx an hour before the LCCA time.

LOL, make that second dibs for LCCA members .

Here's a thought.  With all of the discussions back and forth about opening York to the public, did anyone ever bring up the idea of opening the entire meet to the public, but at the same time, let TCA members enjoy discounts across the board from all vendors ?

Its your thread Dan so let the drift begin. You didn't just open a can of worms. You opened up the whole worm factory. 

Pete

If York is a venue where dickering over train prices is almost expected, how can you guarantee a 'discount across the board from all vendors'? Been to York much?

Dan Padova posted:

Here's a thought.  With all of the discussions back and forth about opening York to the public, did anyone ever bring up the idea of opening the entire meet to the public, but at the same time, let TCA members enjoy discounts across the board from all vendors ?

Dan,

By opening the meet to the public, that's one administrative nightmare for the ED (in general) and security (i.e., monitoring that the public only visits dealer halls).  Offering discounts for TCA members only places another administrative burden on vendors -- not to mention eating into their profits.  On the surface, I don't see the overall value vs administrative burden, and I don't think it would sit well with the vendors. 

Honestly, it'll be interesting to see how opening Friday/Saturday to the general public will affect overall attendance numbers for the April 2017 York.  Once the ED reviews those numbers, they can decide if it was worth the "big experiment".   

At the end of the day, they might just decide it would have been easier to increase the York admission fee for TCA members by $5 or $10, and keep the meet as "members only".  I personally don't believe opening the meet to the general public is gonna make a significant impact on the bottom line.  All it might do is bring back some local folks (i.e., within an hour or perhaps two hours drive max) who opted to not renew their TCA membership and only were TCA members because they wanted to attend York in the first place.  Just a gut feel.  So we'll see soon enough.

David

This April I will be there from 12 noon to 5 pm Thursday only. I will cover all the halls a minimum of 2 times and I'm far from youthful - just keeping to the mission with an occasional bathroom break. In the past I have made several outstanding postwar purchases in the Orange and Purple halls. It goes to show that anything can happen at York.

Laidoffsick posted:

From someone who lives 3000 miles away.... Saturday was a waste. Thurs or Friday are the days to go. I've been twice and don't see myself going back. Sure it was cool to check it once or twice, but I have to ship what I buy so there goes the great deals. If I lived a couple hours away....sure absolutely. It's really not something you can take it all in with just one day.... especially Saturday.

 

When people I know go to this meet and brag about all the super deals they got from both individuals and dealers, I've always found it bizarre that anyone would keep their stuff for 6 months between meets and then sell it for extremely low prices. Couldn't they do that anytime?

Agree with you that cheaply priced stuff will be gone the first day. Even if it then sits in a new closet

Here's a thought.  With all of the discussions back and forth about opening York to the public, did anyone ever bring up the idea of opening the entire meet to the public, but at the same time, let TCA members enjoy discounts across the board from all vendors ?

Unfortunately, there are table holders in the member halls who are more or less running a business, should really be in a dealer hall, and can really be considered a vendor. But the whole idea of the member halls (and the purpose of the show itself) was to provide a venue for non-commercial member to member transactions. When the member table holders are looked at in that light, they are not vendors.

For a number of years I was a helper for a vendor in the Orange Hall.  I won't mention any names but those who know me know who I'm referring to.

One of the problems that the vendors have is dealing with the "bottom feeders" who, from day 1, will keep asking "can't you do any better than that."  You give someone your best price and they still say I''ll think about it or I'll be back.  You have no guarantee that they will be back and in most cases they don't.  

The guy I helped priced his stock to sell from day 1 but the vultures would come back day after day.  By Saturday, he would price much of his stock at or below his cost so as not to have to carry it back "home."  And you still get the "can't you do any better than that."  By then, you have reached the point that you want to tell someone "I'll take a sledge hammer to it before I sell it to you."

So, when you do your bargaining,  give the vendors a break.  Be straight up with them and I think you'll find them much more willing to work with you.

  By then, you have reached the point that you want to tell someone "I'll take a sledge hammer to it before I sell it to you."

LOL, I have told my wife on more than one occasion: If she decides to sell trains herself, that if someone is giving her a hard time with too much haggling that she should throw the item on the floor, stomp on it and say "Want it now?"

I cannot count the number of tales I've heard about people doing things like that.

TrainPop posted:

...

One of the problems that the vendors have is dealing with the "bottom feeders" who, from day 1, will keep asking "can't you do any better than that."  You give someone your best price and they still say I''ll think about it or I'll be back.  You have no guarantee that they will be back and in most cases they don't.  

The guy I helped priced his stock to sell from day 1 but the vultures would come back day after day.  By Saturday, he would price much of his stock at or below his cost so as not to have to carry it back "home."  And you still get the "can't you do any better than that."  By then, you have reached the point that you want to tell someone "I'll take a sledge hammer to it before I sell it to you."

So, when you do your bargaining,  give the vendors a break.  Be straight up with them and I think you'll find them much more willing to work with you.

 

We have a little of that behavior right here on the OGR Forum.    It's a SIN to see the unbelievably low prices some sellers have posted recently... yet STILL no sale.  And before anyone posts a wisecrack response to that, yes... I understand these things happen when we have a super-saturated market.  I've been saying there's a glut of toy trains on the market for years. 

But by the same token, when I post 4 Lionel #305 Hellgate Bridges at $275/each, that's a darn fair price on any day.  And guess what, the price ain't getting any cheaper unless somebody wants to negotiate a deal for all 4 of them.  And then MAYBE.  So yeah... I fully understand the point at which sellers might think, "I'll take a sledge hammer to it before I sell it to you."     In my case, I'd likely be more inclined to just keep the item in storage until somebody is ready to purchase it for a fair price though.

Bottom feeders come with the territory, but that doesn't imply sellers need to accommodate every request.  I have no problem telling a potential buyer to go pound sand (politely), if we both know the deal is heading into win-lose territory.

David

Good point, Trainpop.  I've sold at meets in the distant past and have had the same experience with buyers who want something for nothing.  Personally, I don't have that mindset as a buyer.  Yes, I usually ask if the vendor can do better and in almost every case they did.  

I recall a meet at Gilbertsville, Pa., where a vendor didn't price anything on his table.  Instead he asked potential buyers to make him an offer.  In most cases buyers, that I have seen, will offer a fair price.  So I tried that strategy at the next meet where I had a table and it worked for the most part.  

That said, as a buyer, I prefer to see prices on items.  We've discussed this topic in another thread somewhere.  I hate having to hunt down a seller to ask a price on an item.  

I recall a meet at Gilbertsville, Pa., where a vendor didn't price anything on his table.  Instead he asked potential buyers to make him an offer.

To each their own. I don't care whether items have price tags, but if the seller doesn't have a price, I walk on.

I have not been to York train meet but have seen the posters in York one time when I drove through there. I have been to the Hamburg PA train meet a couple of times and I like that one very much, and might go back this summer if I can get away from south Florida.

I grew up on the north side(Muhlenberg Township) of Reading PA so I know the area up by Leesport, Hamburg and Strasburg a bit. 

Lee Fritz

I go to York all three days. Whatever day I see something I like and can afford it, I'll buy it. When I run out of money I walk around and look. 

In the past, I've had some tight times and had only enough cash to spare to order my ticket. Guess what? I still had a great time. 

Go. Enjoy. Don't worry or bother about anything else. You're there for the trains, remember?

And, one of the top rules for York is that if you see something and want it, buy it right then and there. It will *not* be there when you go back after thinking about it, or thinking you can find another in better condition/price/etc.

Dan Padova posted:

Here's a thought.  With all of the discussions back and forth about opening York to the public, did anyone ever bring up the idea of opening the entire meet to the public, but at the same time, let TCA members enjoy discounts across the board from all vendors ?

Sounds good to me. I'll be saving those TCA yearly dues I've been paying all these years. And whose pockets  will the "discounts" be coming from?

Still that "pesky" tax issue concerning member sellers that has been explained to death.

Dan,

If it is Saturday only for you, get there by 9am. Start at the silver and blue halls as they are next to each other. Walk up to purple which should not take much time to look through and go to red which is nearby. White is next to red. Folks are willing to deal on a Saturday. Many have signs saying that, some have 50% off signs on their tables. You just need to know what you are looking for and have a feel of the price you are willing to pay for a certain piece. I've done well on Saturday. Had a gentleman beg me to buy his MTH turbine which I bought.

Those 4 halls in that order would be my suggestion for someone looking for postwar. Once you hit those, you should have time to navigate the Orange hall, very, very large hall.

As for folks buying, I always price stuff to sell. My comment back is that it is quite reasonable. Want to make a low ball insulting offer, I'll just keep the piece or like some said, throw it on the floor, break it and tell the bottom feeder, now you can have it for your ridiculous price.

Dave, $275 for a Hellgate bridge? Excellent price. Wished I had layout space for one.

Just my 1 cent worth! Lol!

I don't find any harm in asking if that's the best you can do?  Once the seller says yes I either buy it or walk away.  It never hurts to ask.

Ted Bertiger posted:

when something is priced right, it becomes to a point of insulting the person.

Last York I saw a excellent condition Lionel postwar metal caboose for only $32.. It even had a decent box. I handed the dealer two twenties, and he gave me back a ten. I said, "But it's $32.". He said I could have it for $30. I replied,"Please take this $2., so I can sleep tonight".

I am always ready to deal. My brother and I went a year ago for the first time in many years to sell. I dealt with everyone and had nothing ( almost ) left to sell on Saturday. Did I sell too cheap? I took a hint from Allan Miller ( no relation ); he had some Alaskan engines and stuff on the buy sell board years ago too cheap to be true. I bought it then and people buy it now. Since I don't "know" what the piece will truly bring I have often asked  what they ( you ) want to pay. It does push some folks over the edge but everyone who offered a price got what they wanted.

This year lots of 1960-1962 almost mint / test run postwar Lionel rolling stock I " rescued" from an auction where they didn't know how to handle this stuff. They did ruin a few pieces but not all of it. No idea where we will be. I LIKE selling stuff off at a reasonable price. Some folks are probably reading this and saying" That must be the guy I got all the _____ for next to nothing!"

I am all packed and raring to go.

Ernie

If you sell everything on your table, then it's time and effort well spent.  

I've never understood why some people will haul the same overpriced stuff from one meet to the next.  Also don't understand the folks who refuse to negotiate, and those who sit there and sleep.  In all of those cases, they're wasting their time and mine.  I get it if someone wants to go and socialize, but you don't need to buy a table to do that.

I've never understood why some people will haul the same overpriced stuff from one meet to the next.  Also don't understand the folks who refuse to negotiate, and those who sit there and sleep.  In all of those cases, they're wasting their time and mine.  I get it if someone wants to go and socialize, but you don't need to buy a table to do that.

You don't have to stay around their table either.

It is  not unusual for people to have a value set in their mind and refuse to move off of that price. It could be based on what they originally paid, or maybe something they saw someone else sell, or an old price guide. It does not matter to them that the market may be soft. What's the difference?
Some folks won't buy unless they get something off the asking price, even when the seller is offering a good deal. And some table holders won't dicker.

Mallard4468 posted:

 

I've never understood why some people will haul the same overpriced stuff from one meet to the next.

I'd guess that one reason is it gives dealers first dibs to get deals from each other before the doors open (yes I know this is not allowed...wink, wink). Also, some just like to display their vast treasures (you want it, but I got it). Then there is the "visiting with the other guys", "getting away from the wife for 4 days", "keeping busy in retirement", and what have you.

I'm now 75, All I know is that if I ever drag my stuff to York I'll be almost giving it away. 

I'd guess that one reason is it gives dealers first dibs to get deals from each other before the doors open (yes I know this is not allowed...wink, wink).

It wasn't that long ago that member table holders were not allowed to unpack their boxes before the show opened. We could bring our boxes to our tables, but were required to leave them unopened and go back outside with the non-table holders. When the show opened, we all went in together. So the sellers were unpacking as the buyers were moving in the aisles. Some folks called this a "shotgun start".

There use to be a post with a York Primer.  I think it may have even been in the featured topics.  What happened to it?

Chris

When the show opened, we all went in together. So the sellers were unpacking as the buyers were moving in the aisles. Some folks called this a "shotgun start".

Hot Water, the sellers probably will want to shoot me , but I think that is a cool and fun way to start something as big as that meet.

Be like a NASCAR Race.lol

Larry

Chris Underwood posted:

There use to be a post with a York Primer.  I think it may have even been in the featured topics.  What happened to it?

Chris

Here you go, link to the Spring 2017 version.

-Dave

Larry Sr. posted:

When the show opened, we all went in together. So the sellers were unpacking as the buyers were moving in the aisles. Some folks called this a "shotgun start".

Hot Water, the sellers probably will want to shoot me , but I think that is a cool and fun way to start something as big as that meet.

Be like a NASCAR Race.lol

Larry

Larry,

Then, you would have really loved it a few years before that.

At one time there were no assigned tables. At the bell, prospective sellers would make a mad dash to grab a table by placing a box on it, while buyers were also streaming in. The quickest got the best tables. It was only the blue hall back then. 

Jim

Jim Policastro posted:

Larry Sr. posted:

When the show opened, we all went in together. So the sellers were unpacking as the buyers were moving in the aisles. Some folks called this a "shotgun start".

Hot Water, the sellers probably will want to shoot me , but I think that is a cool and fun way to start something as big as that meet.

Be like a NASCAR Race.lol

Larry

Larry,

Then, you would have really loved it a few years before that.

At one time there were no assigned tables. At the bell, prospective sellers would make a mad dash to grab a table by placing a box on it, while buyers were also streaming in. The quickest got the best tables. It was only the blue hall back then. 

Jim

I have many years of flea market experience while living in Memphis, and I can tell you unassigned tables suck! And so do shotgun starts! That's when you are so busy unpacking and setting up that you aren't paying attention to legitimate buyers, and that's also when you would "lose" stuff because you were so distracted. Hopefully, theft isn't much of an issue at this show, but it was in the flea market! And in that market, the tables weren't even staged, you had to go pull yours off a tall stack and carry to your location within the buildings. That's when I dropped a 60lb table on my big toe - that didn't end well....

Glad to hear they're doing things right at York!

That's when you are so busy unpacking and setting up that you aren't paying attention to legitimate buyers, and that's also when you would "lose" stuff because you were so distracted. Hopefully, theft isn't much of an issue at this show,

We all seemed to enjoy the show. If there was an issue with thefts, it certainly was kept under wraps.
All the table holders were able to juggle setting up with selling at the same time.
The TCA used to be a private organization that required two sponsors to join.

It was actually great if you had quality items at reasonable prices. A crowd would gather as you were unpacking your items, and usually they would find a buyer even before they hit the table! Your table wouldn't really get fully setup until around 11 AM, but half your items would already be sold by that time! 

York was the place where you brought mainly your best items to sell/trade. As C.W. said, it was a meet for members of a private organization. 

Sure there were a few bad apples, but there was a lot of trust among members, and nearby table holders always looked out for each other.

The York meet was one of the benefits of membership to be able to buy/sell/trade in such an environment. Unfortunately, many here cannot understand that concept or believe that this benefit should be traded off in favor of making the meet a recruiting tool for the hobby.

Jim

Hey Dan.......I'm sticking to your original question "for post war what are the halls to visit"?   Look into the guys at the front of the WHITE HALL!  there are two guys that seems to have the most pristine postwar items and with probably P7 or better boxes.  Nope I am not  a schill for them........rather I have been going to York for 10 years now and have taken "mental notes" as to who has what.  Saw a baby Ruth boxcar that will probably turn into a MUST HAVE on account of my mom sold all our post war trains years ago............despite my protests.

Dan, 

For me the biggest draw for York, besides seeing people & friends in real life, is finding unique items in person.  Yes may can be found on line, but there are many individuals and seller with out a strong web presence.  It's less about finding "deals" which I think gets an overrated amount of attention.

If the absolute best price is desired, save the travel costs, and shop on line.  If you want to enjoy the experience, prioritize the halls by your interest, look for unique items and enjoy the time. 

Let's not forget one of the best parts of attending the meet....actually handling a piece, comparisons and getting a "real" look at condition.

richabr posted:

Still that "pesky" tax issue concerning member sellers that has been explained to death.

Yep, that deceased horse has been beaten into mush, and some still figure if ignored, the problem will go away.

Doug

richabr posted:

Let's not forget one of the best parts of attending the meet....actually handling a piece, comparisons and getting a "real" look at condition.

 

Plus run it on a test track in each hall.

Yep, that deceased horse has been beaten into mush, and some still figure if ignored, the problem will go away.

It's not that they think the problem will go away. They aren't table holders, so they don't care.
I notice that many of the comments made here regard the table holders as being there for the non-table holders entertainment.

When the show went to three days, the Eastern Division lost a lot of member table holders due to the additional expense of having to stay all three days. This was addressed by allowing members to have more than one table.
Require tax numbers and more members will drop their tables.

C W Burfle posted:

The TCA used to be a private organization that required two sponsors to join.

Dropping that requirement was a BIG mistake, in my opinion. Unfortunately, in recent years the TCA seems to have gone out of its way to make itself a significantly LESS-SPECIAL organization than it once was, and that is kind of a shame.

Allan Miller posted:

C W Burfle posted:

The TCA used to be a private organization that required two sponsors to join.

Dropping that requirement was a BIG mistake, in my opinion. Unfortunately, in recent years the TCA seems to have gone out of its way to make itself a significantly LESS-SPECIAL organization than it once was, and that is kind of a shame.

That rule became irrelevant when folks would sign for anyone without even knowing them.  Folks on this very forum would advertise to meet them at the gate and they'd sign for them.  How do you vouch for someone you've never met?

You know, I FORGOT about the original question ( where to find Post War ) too. Funny how we wander, digress, and get lost. At least at York we have arrows on the floor.

That rule became irrelevant when folks would sign for anyone without even knowing them.  Folks on this very forum would advertise to meet them at the gate and they'd sign for them.  How do you vouch for someone you've never met?

You can't.
I like to think that when I joined the TCA that people still took their sponsorship seriously.  A lot of folks on this board seem to think that professing to like trains automatically makes a individual a good person. But it isn't so.
But even with the irresponsible people signing for individuals they didn't know, there were still others who took the responsibility seriously. And some filtration was better than none.

A true – and somewhat amusing – story about the old two signature rule.

When I joined TCA I called the main office and a helpful woman there walked me through the process. When I asked about the signatures she said, “…no problem, let me fax you an app with two member signatures already affixed.” When I saw the form it looked like it had been copied about 50 times.

So much for that.

When I joined TCA I called the main office and a helpful woman there walked me through the process. When I asked about the signatures she said, “…no problem, let me fax you an app with two member signatures already affixed.” When I saw the form it looked like it had been copied about 50 times.

So they nullified the rule before officially revoking it.
The TCA's problem is the museum, it looses a lot of money each year. It takes a lot of membership dues to make up the deficit.

Here is some data suggesting why some changes to York were thought necessary:

johnstrains posted:

A true – and somewhat amusing – story about the old two signature rule.

When I joined TCA I called the main office and a helpful woman there walked me through the process. When I asked about the signatures she said, “…no problem, let me fax you an app with two member signatures already affixed.” When I saw the form it looked like it had been copied about 50 times.

So much for that.

It's true for some folks that don't have a LHS or other members near them that there should have been some kind of help from TCA National to help them get signed up but to me those would be special circumstances.  Many people getting vouched for had access to LHS and train clubs to help folks get to know them.  But then again even vouching for someone doesn't guarantee anything.

That's a 25% drop in registrations. You can believe TCA has been looking for ways to reverse that trend (and attendance has picked up a bit but not much in the three shows since - Apr 2016 showed 11,395).

Since the numbers have not improved, can we assume that dropping the two signature rule for membership has been ineffective?

Adding doll houses might improve the attendance, should we do that?

C W Burfle posted:

That's a 25% drop in registrations. You can believe TCA has been looking for ways to reverse that trend (and attendance has picked up a bit but not much in the three shows since - Apr 2016 showed 11,395).

Since the numbers have not improved, can we assume that dropping the two signature rule for membership has been ineffective?

Adding doll houses might improve the attendance, should we do that?

I thought we were having a carnival?

cplyons posted:

Here is some data suggesting why some changes to York were thought necessary:

York Statistics - Apr 2008: 14,567 total registrations

York Statistics - Apr 2015: 10,987 total registrations

That's a 25% drop in registrations. You can believe TCA has been looking for ways to reverse that trend ...

 

 

No fighting he numbers, but the EDTCA (as well as the TCA in general) may need to adapt to a smaller audience/membership the way retail giants are learning to deal with the fact that brick-and-mortar stores aren't always cutting it nowadays.

When Circuit City called it quits a few years ago, another company HH Gregg tried a go of it with a subset of Circuit City locations.   But I recently noticed HH Gregg has decided to close all of its stores in PA, with one nearby location already liquidating everything in the store.  A few days ago, I saw the list of 138 JC Penny stores closing this year, and two of them locally in southeastern PA are at very high-profile locations:  Willow Grove Park Mall and King of Prussia Mall.  Admittedly, malls have been known for being expensive real estate, but they also bring lots of foot traffic.  So to close two such high-profile stores in the Philly area is really saying something.

Online/Internet shopping has been very disruptive to the traditional retail business model, and we're seeing the same thing in our little corner of the world.  True, the TCA is also losing a piece of its membership due to aging demographics.  But folks simply don't "need" York in the same way they did years/decades ago.  I still love to visit York, but there's no denying that I could just as easily make a ton of train purchases throughout the year online at dealer websites, or here on the forum buy/sell board, or eBay (among other auction sites as well).  Our own forum sponsors run special discount sales multiple times throughout the year, so it appears that there's ALWAYS a sale going on at one time or another.  And there are only so many trains that one can buy.  

I give the EDTCA lots of kudos for trying to adapt in these challenging times.  But if their latest efforts don't achieve the desired results, we might be looking at York eventually becoming a once-a-year event.

David

C W Burfle posted:

Adding doll houses might improve the attendance, should we do that?

The original Greenberg Shows were called the Greenberg Train and Dollhouse shows. At the Philadelphia Civic Center, this doll section was about 1/4 to 1/8 of the floor space in one separate area. You could find some small furniture, wallpaper, rugs, etc. for layout interiors. 

That's a 25% drop in registrations. You can believe TCA has been looking for ways to reverse that trend (and attendance has picked up a bit but not much in the three shows since - Apr 2016 showed 11,395).

Since the numbers have not improved, can we assume that dropping the two signature rule for membership has been ineffective?

There's a difference between York registrations and overall TCA membership. According to the latest TCA National Headquarters news, membership dropped almost 11% in the 15 months following the dues increase in 2013. It is stated that membership is slowly increasing and is now at 23,354. As has been stated, the York meet is an Eastern Division TCA function controlled by them. The old 2 person rule had nothing to do with the York meet unless you were signing up on site.

 It is stated that membership is slowly increasing and is now at 23,354. As has been stated, the York meet is an Eastern Division TCA function controlled by them. The old 2 person rule had nothing to do with the York meet unless you were signing up on site.

Then can we assume that dropping the two signature rule is addressing the membership numbers, and there really isn't a need to open up the show to the public as a recruitment tool for the TCA?

According to the latest TCA National Headquarters news, membership dropped almost 11% in the 15 months following the dues increase in 2013.

The TCA folks anticipated some membership loss with the dues increase.

Dan Padova posted:

I have been to exactly one York meet, in my life.  That was last Spring.  I came away a bit dazed and confused.....more than usual.  I'm planning to attend the April meet, butI would like to have some rhyme and reason as to how to navigate, when I do.  

I hear terms like Dealers hall,Orange hall and so on.  As a post-war operator, which of these halls would be the ones to visit ?  Not that I wouldn't like to see them all, but it will be a day trip andmost likely will be Saturday.  

Dan, Considering what you have said and asked, especially considering that you intend going to York on Saturday, my advice would be as follows...

Start at the "Orange Hall" seen here named Lutz...

Try to park left-rear of here...or behind these buildingsor next to this garbage compactor alongside the Orange Hall...or in this field behind (east side) the Orange Hall (Lutz)...These spots will put you central to all the other halls, and starting in the Orange Hall will offer you plenty of variety and many aisles to wander and explore. IMHO.

FrankM.

I have to disagree  with moonson, I would go to the orange hall last because it is open till 4pm on sat. Since you are a postwar operator, I would start in the blue hall, then the silver hall, & on to the red hall, white hall, & then to the orange hall. Just my feeling. I'll probably get hell from Moonson for this answer. 

What you said makes sense, too, Eddie G, so perhaps between us we have offered Dan some concrete choices to consider. We're both hoping the best for him.

And I hope you have a very safe trip and the time of your life there.

frankM

Thanks all.  Sounds like you all have some good advice from being there in the past.  As the meet draws nearer the actual day I plan to attend may change.  being retired every day can be a Saturday.  Last year I went on Friday.  The traffic, as I got closer to York, was backing up, and I was still at least a half hour away.  I chalked it up to being a business day so commercial traffic   was still running heavy.  So that's the main reason I thought of going Saturday.  

Dan, I've have not had any traffic problems going to York, except for bridge or road work. Leaving York during 4-6 on a Friday can be a bit slow, as well as going through the Lancaster area.

Since you are retired, going on only a Saturday does not make a lot of sense to me.

Rt. 30 is bad almost any hour of the day.   I-83 not much better. 

Makes the arrival at the York Fairgrounds that much sweeter. 

83 has been pretty good for me over the years coming down from Harrisburg area. 

It's a 20-25 minute drive before getting to 30 probably, but I've never had any significant tie ups on either Friday or Saturday morning (and 30 is a short enough run from there to Carlisle ave that it's not too bad). 

I've been lucky on Thursday too, but if I stay up there on Thursday, I don't leave during rush hour, even if I am selling at my single table since it takes very little time to set up.

The absolute worst I remember was a time probably in the early 2000's when 30 was mostly ripped up for construction from the Lancaster area to York.  Took 462 that meet to try to avoid it, and it was slow and not direct at all (compared to 30 from Lancaster).

-Dave

Last year I went via the turnpike to 222 then 30 the rest of the way into York.  It was that last leg on route 30 that was the real PITA.    

Dan Padova posted:

Last year I went via the turnpike to 222 then 30 the rest of the way into York.  It was that last leg on route 30 that was the real PITA.    

For coming from the general Philly area, I believe you are taking the best route.  It's just trying to leave early enough to avoid rush hour on both ends of it that is difficult.  From Exit 351, I find it's very close to a 2 hour trip to the fairgrounds with no traffic (maybe slightly less now that the Tpke speed limit is 70 MPH.).

Google maps claims that if you got on at 351 (not sure which exit you are closest to, but it's easy to change the "directions from" point on Google to customize it for your situation) around 5:50 AM on Friday you could make it to the Fairgrounds by 8 AM.  If there are no incidents, maybe it's right, but I'm a bit skeptical.

https://www.google.com/maps/di...6e1!7e2!8j1493366400 

-Dave

I 30 from Carlisle Ave back to ? wherever east of York has always been slow. There is a lot of traffic and stores so it can't really be a surprise. I know there were years of construction. I 84 from Scranton south was always a horror show. It still gets ugly on parts of it AND I 83 south: the lanes are narrow and the pace is severe.

I  looked at is as a meditative period. The fairgrounds are only a few miles away. I now stay at the Best Western( or at least in recent past ) and thus am only moments away. You want lines, go to Disney World!

OR you can wait for some wide, side x siders, that also wobble and follow them through the halls.

See you there, and for the record I don't wobble too much but have been known to fall down.

Ernie

Dan Padova posted:

Last year I went via the turnpike to 222 then 30 the rest of the way into York.  It was that last leg on route 30 that was the real PITA.    

That may be the most direct but if you stay on the turnpike until I-83 then exit at N. George St to 30 then left on Pennsylvania you are only on 30 for two blocks. 30 is the bottle neck. Its about a ten minute ride from I-83 to the fairgrounds. 

Pete

It may be less rush hour traffic, but taking the Tpke west until 83 and then back south to 30 adds around 20 miles to the trip(vs. the route Dan described). 

I did that once years ago as an experiment on the way home on a Saturday.  Definitely not worth it on a weekend, maybe it can be with weekday rush hour. 

Only my opinion, but there needs to be one heck of a serious traffic jam before I can make up going an extra 20 miles to avoid the heavy traffic.

-Dave

Well, now that RT.30 has been covered, can we move on to restroom tipping?

Some of you make a big deal driving to York. I've been doing it for 40 years. No big deal.

Some of you make a big deal driving to York. I've been doing it for 40 years. No big deal.

True, it's no big deal. But everybody wants to get there the quickest, most efficient way possible. Can't blame them for that!

Just got an S gauge newsletter email from MTH touting the upcoming York. Seems like a clue to who may have wanted the show to open to the public. Verbage is a bit misleading as one may think the entire show is available unless they drill down to the website.

M.T.H. Electric Trains will be attending the TCA Eastern Division York Meet on April 27 - 29, 2017 at the York Expo Center in York, Pennsylvania and for the first time ever, this famous show is now open to the public! You can learn more about the York show by visiting the Eastern Division of the TCA Website.

HO, S Scale, O Scale, One Gauge and tinplate model railroading fans attending the event will have an opportunity to meet and ask M.T.H. Representatives questions about the M.T.H. product line, company direction and future plans as well as see product demonstrations and pick up a copy of our latest catalogs.

• April 2015 York TCA Meet - York, PA
  Thursday, April 27, 2017: (Members Only)
  12:00pm - 6:30pm

  Friday, April 28, 2017: (Open To The Public)
  9:00am - 6:30pm

  Saturday, April 29, 2017: (Open To The Public)
  9:00am - 4:00pm

Bombs away!

Just got an S gauge newsletter email from MTH touting the upcoming York. Seems like a clue to who may have wanted the show to open to the public. Verbage is a bit misleading as one may think the entire show is available unless they drill down to the website.

I'd guess that MTH was one of the "Big Wheels" who wanted the show open to the public. But they could not have been the only one.
To me the question is: Why aren't the other exhibitors in the dealer halls stepping up?

C W Burfle posted:

Just got an S gauge newsletter email from MTH touting the upcoming York. Seems like a clue to who may have wanted the show to open to the public. Verbage is a bit misleading as one may think the entire show is available unless they drill down to the website.

I'd guess that MTH was one of the "Big Wheels" who wanted the show open to the public. But they could not have been the only one.
To me the question is: Why aren't the other exhibitors in the dealer halls stepping up?

Who would those "other exhibitors in the dealer halls" be that you wonder about concerning why they are not "stepping up" ? Whom are you thinking of? And if you are including the cottage-industry-type of vendor, what is it you are suggesting or expecting they should be doing, specifically? I'm serious. What is it you are expecting vendors , like Mr. Bishop, or Scenic Express, for example, to be doing (and are not?) Is there a "moral obligation" or "group-dynamic" that I am missing here?

FrankM.

Layout Refinements

P.S. "Why aren't the other exhibitors in the dealer halls..." = generality. Fair? Balanced ? Qualified?

I think MTH and Lionel think the York Meet will fall apart if they don't show up. I don't spend valuable time standing in line to get a free catalog, or see Mike in person, but I'm likely to be in the minority.

Who would those "other exhibitors in the dealer halls" be that you wonder about concerning why they are not "stepping up" ? Whom are you thinking of? And if you are including the cottage-industry-type of vendor, what is it you are suggesting or expecting they should be doing, specifically? I'm serious. What is it you are expecting vendors , like Mr. Bishop, or Scenic Express, for example, to be doing (and are not?) Is there a "moral obligation" or "group-dynamic" that I am missing here?

Specifically I was thinking of larger companies that likely have newsletters and/or Email lists,  like Lionel and Atlas. 
I wasn't thinking that cottage industry or the small hobby business folks would have the resources to help out, but if they did, that would be great.

So, what could the big guys do? ....... exactly what MTH appears to have done. Make mention of the meet being open to the public, in either their newsletter or in a email blast to their subscribers. (or both) Don't go into too many details, just provide a link to the Eastern Division's web site. That lets the Eastern Division maintain most of the control over the message.

I guess that if the smaller guys had email lists or newsletters they could do the same.

Mention on web sites and/or Facebook pages would be great, but I would not expect many outfits, large or small, to have the policies and resources to allow this.

I don't think "moral obligation" or "group dynamic" applies here.
To me it's "pitching in" rather than just telling some other group what to do.

I think MTH and Lionel think the York Meet will fall apart if they don't show up. I don't spend valuable time standing in line to get a free catalog, or see Mike in person, but I'm likely to be in the minority.

Maybe not.

When I am able to make the meet, I do go through the Orange Hall. I've picked up some great stuff in there. There are plenty of older trains.  Plus there are numerous parts dealers.
But I walk right by the Lionel, and MTH booths. Nothing of interest there for me.

Still, I am glad they are there for the people who like to see the latest from their favorite company.

C W Burfle posted:

Who would those "other exhibitors in the dealer halls" be that you wonder about concerning why they are not "stepping up" ? Whom are you thinking of? And if you are including the cottage-industry-type of vendor, what is it you are suggesting or expecting they should be doing, specifically? I'm serious. What is it you are expecting vendors , like Mr. Bishop, or Scenic Express, for example, to be doing (and are not?) Is there a "moral obligation" or "group-dynamic" that I am missing here?

Specifically I was thinking of larger companies that likely have newsletters and/or Email lists,  like Lionel and Atlas. 
I wasn't thinking that cottage industry or the small hobby business folks would have the resources to help out, but if they did, that would be great.

So, what could the big guys do? ....... exactly what MTH appears to have done. Make mention of the meet being open to the public, in either their newsletter or in a email blast to their subscribers. (or both) Don't go into too many details, just provide a link to the Eastern Division's web site. That lets the Eastern Division maintain most of the control over the message.

I guess that if the smaller guys had email lists or newsletters they could do the same.

Mention on web sites and/or Facebook pages would be great, but I would not expect many outfits, large or small, to have the policies and resources to allow this.

I don't think "moral obligation" or "group dynamic" applies here.
To me it's "pitching in" rather than just telling some other group what to do.

Now that you've qualified your remarks with something that sounds more reasonable and less accusatory and sour, I find your points more pleasant and sensible toward everybody. Good to read you feel there is not a "moral obligation" or "group" responsibility for the little guys to advertise, also, which is what the tone of your generalized, original posting felt like in its original broad finger-pointing.

Of course, I find the irony of your last statement, here, to be remarkable, considering what you said originally. Yes, indeed. It's so easy to point fingers and accuse others of being derelict. The effort it takes to be more accurate with where one points publicly, especially when peoples' livelihoods and the good of the overall group can be concerned, is certainly preferable, isn't it.

 Now that you've qualified your remarks with something that sounds more reasonable and less accusatory and sour, I find your points more pleasant and sensible toward everybody.

I'd love to know how many people interpreted my post the way you did.

C W Burfle posted:

 Now that you've qualified your remarks with something that sounds more reasonable and less accusatory and sour, I find your points more pleasant and sensible toward everybody.

I'd love to know how many people interpreted my post the way you did.

...and would have dared speak up?

...and would have dared speak up?

I forgot how scary I am.

Except for the occasional, and often obligatory, comments on egregious grammar and spelling errors, this is not a forum that concerns itself with writing styles. Let's get back to the horse-beating.

"Gentlemen, there is no fighting in the War Room." Dr. Strangelove.

C W Burfle posted:

...and would have dared speak up?

I forgot how scary I am.

Not scary, surely. But interesting, yes. And well worth attention.