US NAVY HELIUM CAR

Interesting and interested as well.  How much of the end details do you think you will be able to capture?

Underbody on these cars was specialized - that sort of a double AB brake system due to weight considerations - so a "regular" car base might not be correct.

In any case, most interested.

That sure looks better than my scratch/kit-built one:

I have absolutely no idea of its provenance as it was gotten for me at an unremembered train show, but for the ten dollar asking price, I was not quibling about the "small stuff"

I, too, may have an interest in one.

I've got 3 very short flat cars that I've always wanted to turn into truncated helium cars so like MWB I'm interested to see what you come up with Alan.

Add me to the interested list.  You may be on to something.

Alan:

With all the interest in your He car project, any that you build for sale will quickly float away off your workbench to their new homes !!!

🎈

If you make extras, I’d take a couple.

joe

this will need to be printed in two pieces, for the full size model.

So if you can give me dimension of the short flat cars I can build them for you.

I'm using the Hawk Model Co.  U.S.N. Helium Car drawings at 1/4" scale as a basis for the model.

Hawk was and is a now defunct Chicago Company that made a Helium Car wood kit. I have the kit.

Alan

this is the scale drawing from Hawk

I was wondering if Dave's was the Hawk version when I saw it!

@AlanRail posted:

this is the scale drawing from Hawk

Looks very familiar - was one on eBay not that long ago.  I'd wager that the Pecos brass one is wee bit more accurate.

Might have the end ladder flipped in your CAD drawing?

In any case, the brass model is very heavy so a 3D printed one would be most welcome!

Id be interested in one of these at well.  I've been looking for one for a while but rarely see them and then when they do pop up they go for way more money than reasonable.  let me know if you are interested in making another!

Bill

I noticed the needed flip.

Still a work in progress

Will these He cars need extra weights to keep them firmly of the rails ???

😆🎈

using this much resin should be heavy enough,,  but i wont know for sure until printed and assembled. 

before I start any of my models I do a lot of research.  I look at existing models usually in brass and any photos of actual cars or engines.

There are several models, and each is a bit different. But I found a copy of the drawings for the Hawk and Ambroid model kits that provide dimensions. There were several 0-scale models on the Bay so I am using photos of those as well.

After all that, I like the basic Ambroid version and will modify the design to reflect the other researched drawings and photos.

this version has nice double end doors on the left end and a man-door on the right end.

It shows an open framework for the bottom with the braking system as threaded above.

This is fairly easy model to design and print.

@AlanRail posted:

After all that, I like the basic Ambroid version and will modify the design to reflect the other researched drawings and photos.

this version has nice double end doors on the left end and a man-door on the right end.

It shows an open framework for the bottom with the braking system as threaded above.

Yes, I agree - the basic Ambroid version is workable.  It's the one that I was looking at a few years ago.

This is fairly easy model to design and print.

That's good to know!

This is amazing @AlanRail ! I am very interested in one of these cars. If you plan to sell some when your design is all done, please let me know.

Or, if you feel so inclined to share a .stl file when completed, I would love to be able to print my own (however, it might be a while as I am currently trying to rebuild my printer...)


Bryce

HERE IS THE REVISED(in progress) version based more on the Ambroid model but my other research as well

the under carriage is revised from the initial model above; the doors "may" open depends on the print.

the DUAL braking system piping and linkages will be there, Not sure if I can make the tanks removable but I can make a rack for them to sit separately as an additional item,

i appreciate the interest. Not sure WHY I have always found this model to be neat!

underside braking components. These are 3D components superimposed on a 2D photo.

Looking at the bottom as viewed from the top

I haven't the faintest idea what these components do, I just matched the photo'd parts.

3D view

Very nice work.  Are you going to license you build files?  Also I'm looking to buy a resin printer - what are you using and are you happy with it?

Westinghouse A-B brake components; reservoir, triple valve, and brake cylinder.  All readily available parts in brass and white metal castings.  Wiseman sells these as a set in brass with a set of air hoses along with a good plumbing diagram.

"Not sure if I can make the tanks removable but I can make a rack for them to sit separately as an additional item,"

That might a lot better and one could add the parts so that they would sit up separately and one could add all the piping.

Rob

there are couple of options to build a number of these USN Helium cars;

Maybe(big maybe) i could see if Scott at Sunset wants to build them; i'd just turn over the model file.

-Scott has a lot going on so I doubt he would be interested. I could try Atlas since I have been told (thanks Price Bradshaw) that their Andrews trucks are the correct ones.

I know I can have SHAPEWAYS print them in plastic or my choice aluminum.

Aluminum printed cars (actually sintered aluminum cars) could cost $$$.

I need to qualify that with an actual number.

PRINTER: the best resin printer is the FormLabs 3+; I have a FormLabs 3.

What I truly miss is the black plastic three piece AB set All Nation made.

AN also made a passenger set with a UC valve, brake cylinder and a generator using same material..

While detail was just fair, the plastic  material lent itself to easy drilling to fit up all the piping and brake rods for a decent underbody detail job.

The Walthers / Keil Line (now Scale City Designs) AB set is cast in soft metal which while drillable is still more difficult to work with. Consider that detailing that little AB brake valve casting requires five holes in three sizes for piping, just on one side: The auxiliary reservior, emergency reservoir, brake cylinder, brake pipe and retainer lines. Then too, rodding for the brake valve cutout cock, which is mounted on the bottom of a brake valve but rarely modeled.  Then, one needs to attach that part with all its piping securely to car at hand. 

This Scale Model Railways cast aluimum box car from 1937 was built with five castings I was given in 2000 with a note saying 'see what you can do with these." Here it has a new, detailed floor and underbody, using my very last three piece All Nation AB set.  Sure wish I could find more of them, but they have not been made for several decades! 

A high number on a C&O box car?  The number is accurate, from the Official Railway Equipment Register. Cars in this series were among those outfitted in the 1950's with special racks for transporting engines, rear axles and Hydramatic trasmissions from GM factories to automobile and light truck assembly plants. 

S. Islander

@S. Islander posted:

What I truly miss is the black plastic three piece AB set All Nation made.

While detail was just fair, the plastic  material lent itself to easy drilling to fit up all the piping and brake rods for a decent underbody detail job.

Think I used my last set just a few months ago...

The Walthers / Keil Line (now Scale City Designs) AB set is cast in soft metal which while drillable is still more difficult to work with. Consider that detailing that little AB brake valve casting requires five holes in three sizes for piping, just on one side: The auxiliary reservior, emergency reservoir, brake cylinder, brake pipe and retainer lines. Then too, rodding for the brake valve cutout cock, which is mounted on the bottom of a brake valve but rarely modeled.  Then, one needs to attach that part with all its piping securely to car at hand.

Yup, but it's a lot better than naked underbody syndrome!

The brass set from Wiseman is the other that I've been using when I need an A-B system

@AlanRail posted:

Rob

there are couple of options to build a number of these USN Helium cars;

Maybe(big maybe) i could see if Scott at Sunset wants to build them; i'd just turn over the model file.

-Scott has a lot going on so I doubt he would be interested. I could try Atlas since I have been told (thanks Price Bradshaw) that their Andrews trucks are the correct ones.

I know I can have SHAPEWAYS print them in plastic or my choice aluminum.

Aluminum printed cars (actually sintered aluminum cars) could cost $$$.

I need to qualify that with an actual number.

PRINTER: the best resin printer is the FormLabs 3+; I have a FormLabs 3.

I am also curious about costs for both options.

Here's another option though - see what John Wubble at All-Nation thinks and if he's interested in adding them to his product line. He's already marketing some 3D printed car kits - this might be winner with him.

@Rob Johnston posted:

Very nice work.  Are you going to license you build files?  Also I'm looking to buy a resin printer - what are you using and are you happy with it?

Rob,

I work with 3D printers and have used FormLab's 3L and Fuse 1 printers at my job, they both are very good. I too am looking at getting a resin printer (I can get more details than I get with FDM printers) and have considered getting the ELEGOO Saturn or pre-ordering the Jupiter. They both have large print volumes and great detail/accuracy for the price points. Just my two cents.

@AlanRail posted:

I know I can have SHAPEWAYS print them in plastic or my choice aluminum.

Aluminum printed cars (actually sintered aluminum cars) could cost $$$.

I need to qualify that with an actual number.

Alan, if Shapeways costs too much in plastic or Aluminum, I know a few people who might be able to help with large resin prints, but I make no promises. OR... If I ever get my FDM to work properly, I can take a shot at it and see if the print quality is good (I would just charge for cost of material + shipping)

Bryce

Latest in-progress design.

height dimension from bottom of trucks to top of catwalk is 3.81 inches.

Showing in lower right box both "A" end and "B" end

tanks removed showing undercarrage.

Trucks shown are for display only. Again, my plan is to print this in two halves.

then interconnect the pieces with some sort of concealed slots.

Alan,

First, nice work!

Second, I may be interested in purchasing one.

Third, would it make sense to print the frame as one unit, then each side half separately, and finally the top catwalk? You could stagger the tabs and slots such that things could be assembled only one way. Use the catwalk to hide the seam.

Chris

LVHR

Please add me to  your list of potential purchasers

Ibid on purchase request

Once I have the design further along I will need to add the riveting details.

Rivets are the very last item I place because at that point changing anything can KILL the rivet placements.

However, rivets are easy to place.  I create lines where rivets will go. Then locate ONE rivet at the beginning of the line and let the program array the rest evenly spacing along the line.

Alan

Although I have the PRB car, I am following your progress with great interest...Primarily so I can get an appreciation State of The Art of the 3D printing

Alan, I can't believe I fell 10 days behind on this.  The latest drawings are great.  I'll dig out the shorties I have, take some measurements and some pictures and send them to you to see if you can think of a way to modify your design to work on my shortened flat cars.

@AlanRail posted:

.

Looks great!

There were eight (8) generations of Helium Cars, which is why there are many variations.

Starting in 1926 to 1962.  They were built for the Army Air Service, Navy, Bureau of Mines and the AEC. They were built by Beth Steel 3-tubes, GATC 30-tubes (1st, 2nd and 3rd Gen. 1930-1942), ACF 30-tubes (4th, 4-1/2,5th and 6th Gen, 1955-1961) and Magor 30-tubes (8th Gen 1962).

Credit A Portfolio of Helium Tank Cars 1926-1962 by Jay Miller June 2007.

I am only doing one version: USNX 1942-1943 GATC. 3rd Gen, these were still in service in the 60s and 70s.

the structural variations in the 3rd to 8th Gens are slight. the latter gens go from gray to aluminum in color.

Alan, I can't wait to see the final product!

Bryce

This right view will be the interior of the car with the doors remove.

I'd like to make the "A" end doors open.

Those look great!  Congratulations on getting this far!  Can't wait to see a finished product....would love one as long as I could put 2 rail trucks and Kadee couplers on it.

Adding a block for Kadee couplers and 2 rail trucks is not hard to do

I’m in and on board.

Looking good! What material do you plan on printing this in -- filament or resin?

I'm very interested if you do plan on selling them, but I'd like to see a sample first.

resin printer 

Just an FYI for those who are willing to spend big bucks for one of these cars. Currently, Stout Auctions has a Pecos River Brass, 2 rail version, offered on their upcoming Friday auction. There are 6 current bidders, and the price is already at $275.00. This car can easily be converted to 3 rail, for those so inclined. I bet it goes for almost double the current bid price.

Jeff

@mowingman posted:

Just an FYI for those who are willing to spend big bucks for one of these cars. Currently, Stout Auctions has a Pecos River Brass, 2 rail version, offered on their upcoming Friday auction. There are 6 current bidders, and the price is already at $275.00. This car can easily be converted to 3 rail, for those so inclined. I bet it goes for almost double the current bid price.

Jeff

I am the current highest bidder and that is not my highest and final bid...thanks for advertising it! though!  LOL

@roll_the_dice posted:

I am the current highest bidder and that is not my highest and final bid...thanks for advertising it! though!  LOL

So sorry. I did not intend to run the price up for you. Just thought someone on here might be interested in it, who had not seen it.

Jeff

@mowingman posted:

So sorry. I did not intend to run the price up for you. Just thought someone on here might be interested in it, who had not seen it.

Jeff

It's all good.  I don't anticipate winning it.  I "was" the highest bidder on a lot of 2 rail items that I am no longer highest bidder on...some of the items go for well over what I think they are worth...so I bid my highest and final and if I win, I win, if not, I will keep hunting.  If someone wants it more than I do, I hope they enjoy it and use it.

@roll_the_dice posted:

It's all good.  I don't anticipate winning it.  I "was" the highest bidder on a lot of 2 rail items that I am no longer highest bidder on...some of the items go for well over what I think they are worth...so I bid my highest and final and if I win, I win, if not, I will keep hunting.  If someone wants it more than I do, I hope they enjoy it and use it.

Andy,

I know exactly what you mean. I bid on the occasional item on that auction site. If I bid my highest, and do not win the item, I just don't give it another thought. Someone else can enjoy it.

Jeff

The last one I saw on the bay went for $800.

That's why I'm building my own.

@AlanRail posted:

The last one I saw on the bay went for $800.

That's why I'm building my own.

HOLY COW!

Andy It was $696.00 NOT $800  sorry  to have COWed you.

Getting closer to my first build. I will be using a 1/4" thick clear acrylic base to attach the trucks.

This is necessary for support of the trucks. However, I will laser cut out the acrylic to match the under carriage see below.

Top view showing clear acrylic cutouts to match the underframe design; There will be some tabs and slots created to fit the undercarriage into the acrylic

None of this will be visible as the tanks conceal the acrylic from above see below:

At the same time see Top View above the underside view is not impeded.

Exciting news!  Looks great Alan!  I can't wait to see your first build!

@mowingman posted:

Just an FYI for those who are willing to spend big bucks for one of these cars. Currently, Stout Auctions has a Pecos River Brass, 2 rail version, offered on their upcoming Friday auction. There are 6 current bidders, and the price is already at $275.00. This car can easily be converted to 3 rail, for those so inclined. I bet it goes for almost double the current bid price.

Jeff

The PRB car sold at the Stout auction today for $450 + 19% premium so $535.50 plus shipping all in.  Out of my price range...I hung in there for a minute before I was eaten alive.

neat  they have the decals

@roll_the_dice posted:

The PRB car sold at the Stout auction today for $450 + 19% premium so $535.50 plus shipping all in.  Out of my price range...I hung in there for a minute before I was eaten alive.

Yes, I watched part of the auction too, and saw the price of that car, as well as others. Shipping will not be cheap either, so we could add that on to your shown price. Actually, the whole auction was way beyond my budget, for anything listed. Oh well, maybe next time!

Jeff

@roll_the_dice posted:

The PRB car sold at the Stout auction today for $450 + 19% premium so $535.50 plus shipping all in.  Out of my price range...I hung in there for a minute before I was eaten alive.

Might be the lowest price on one of these in a long time.......but still just a wee bit dear.

@mowingman posted:

Yes, I watched part of the auction too, and saw the price of that car, as well as others. Shipping will not be cheap either, so we could add that on to your shown price. Actually, the whole auction was way beyond my budget, for anything listed. Oh well, maybe next time!

Jeff

I watched the entire 2 rail auction today many things were out of my price range or more than I was willing to pay...I came in 2nd a lot! haha

@mwb posted:

Might be the lowest price on one of these in a long time.......but still just a wee bit dear.

I was the 2nd high bidder at $425, but with fees and unknown shipping, I just couldn't pull the trigger any higher.

@AlanRail  Come on Alan, we are behind you!   Love that they have the decals!!!

Not been able to get back to the Helium car for a bit. Still, I started on the riveting. I think the rivets really make this car standout.

Anyway, Ken's Kustom is making and selling a Helium car; so, if you really need one now get one from him.

Mass printing large models is not something I can do or would even attempt with my single printer at 9 hrs a print!

When the model is complete, I will be uploading this model to Shapeways or another site so that the print can be made in one piece. Again, if I had a farm of larger printers ($15,000 .each) I print these myself. Don't have that yet.

There is a guy in Australia that has a large format  FormLabs printer that would make the shells for about $250; at least that was his price a while ago.

in the process of setting up the 3D printing of my Helium Car. Unless I buy the larger format FormLabs 3L printer $12,000, I cannot print the entire car in one piece. the tanks being the hardest to print in one piece. I do not want to print the tanks split in half.  because I dont like the center splits that would be visible and continue down and around for each tank.

The 3D models that I print, I don't want them to look like a 3D print but rather a brass-like model given the very smooth surfaces that I get with my FormLabs 3 resin printer.

Can I  print the outer-most helium tanks as single models; that can be attached together with hidden tabs and slots. The model doesn't need to have the inner and unseen tanks 3D printed.  So that minimizes the tanks that need to be printed. further, the tanks need not be solid cylinders but rather semi hollow and halved, since the inner sides are also unseen.

the above shows how 7 of the tanks would be printed. This is just for a sizing within the printer range. I will cut off the tops  as they are all hidden in the model by the helium car end pieces; and hollow and halve them too.

This way the tanks can be printed in one piece, painted and decaled separate from the rest of the car.

@AlanRail posted:

When the model is complete, I will be uploading this model to Shapeways or another site so that the print can be made in one piece.

Please let us know when that is available through Shapeways or whoever.  Thanks!

Agreed...let us know when it is available!  Great job...

The Helium Car has trucks with three (3) springs as well as outer wheel external braking. See above.

I found some MTH  3 spring trucks MTH DA-020001 with couplers on the Bay, see photo. TRIANZ has an auction for 3-spring trucks too, see:

MTH DA-0100006 Die-Cast 2-Axle 3-Spring Freight Car Truck | eBay   However, the couplers are missing.

I do plan on adding a KADEE bracket for their O-gauge couplers.

Since neither trucks types have the external braking, I will make a 3D cover piece, see the green, to model the external braking.

I just noticed a writeup on these in HO scale. It is in the new products section of the April, Model Railroader, magazine, page 14.  It says that it is a 3D printed model also. They say it uses PLA-type plastic, whatever that is.

Jeff

Do you plan to glue the cover piece on? Or will you find a way to make it hold itself on?

As a 2 rail guy, I would love to have one.

That's such an unusual car. It would be nice to have one in two-rail.

as to 2-rail I do intend to add a KADEE coupler bracket, other than that what else is needed?

Can you make the truck bolsters for 2 rail trucks?

likely. need a picture of the truck bolsters for 2 rail trucks

I have photos of the 2-rail PR Helium car. I can match the truck bolsters on that car.

This is a first draft assembly drawing.  The main two pieces printed together are the Brace-Frame with the "B" end (shown upper right) and the Tanks with the "A" end (shown upper left) . As indicated above, the Tank piece will slide into the Brace-Frame piece. This way the tanks can be painted and  decaled with the decals shown in earlier threads before the slide-in. The decals indicate whether yours is a US NAVY or AEC tank or other tank car.

Then the trucks are attached to the Truck Frame (in Red), the truck frame is then attached to the Brace-Frame and end pieces. Final steps are attaching the "A" end doors on the pivots and the undercarriage structure with the braking parts (shown separated they will be integrated with the undercarriage structure) to the truck frame.

I am looking at replacing the acrylic Truck Frame with a more typical metal stamped truck frame. I don't have that cost yet.

As to selling, still working out those details. I keep you all informed.