Is it likely that anyone will be making replacement parts in future for my lionel allegheny that is suffering from zinc rot?

I think you will find Lionel and other providers manufacturers  are willing to replace shells that have had zinc rot issues. I had the first Big Boy and it developed a bubble. My dealer sent it back to Lionel and they replaced it for free. This was several years after the release.

Scott Smith

I'd rather be ice fishing posted:

The point of this post is to ask:  in future is it likely that someone will start to manufacture all these small parts that lionel does not offer NO!   or will there be a market full of broken $1200 engines out there with no available parts? YES!   

And not just Lionel, we already have Atlas, MTH and Weaver items with this problem...

My Allegheny was built in the 1990s and lionel had no replacement parts for me nor did they seem overly concerned with my plight.  I ended up moneying my way out of it by buying a whole tender shell with good doors from a helpful dealers NOS and I got the impression that was the last one on earth.  It was not cheap either..Lionel made no effort to help me with some doors from their newer Alleghenies stating the ones they had were being saved for warrantees.  So no love from lionel to me..

SORRY, but you might actually do better with ice fishing after all. Seriously, ALL trains/gauges can be frustrating and disappointing at times; unfortunately, it goes with the territory!

You may not have to wait 10 years...the electronics are sure to go before the zinc....long live PW/MPC.....

In O gauge we're so used to the longevity of PW that I think we've lost track of where the manufactures are going. How old is your TV, cell phone and all of the consumer electronics. The manufactures of our trains are starting to think like they do and assume you will have tossed the trains you bought this year for the "new" ones that they will sell in five years.

Its how it now is.

Tinplate Art posted:

Seriously, ALL trains/gauges can be frustrating and disappointing at times; unfortunately, it goes with the territory!

Wow, you aren't kidding!!!!!!shelf display only, beautiful but useless TurboTrain.  

VISTADOMESCOTT, I like your tiny Airport!

Rusty

Best advice with everything in life: carpe diem! Deal with TODAY and the PRESENT! That is really all we have as the past is gone and who knows if we will even have a "future"! Enjoy each moment as you exist in it and be glad you have it. And yes, I am an existentialist, philosophically speaking!

Scotie posted:

In O gauge we're so used to the longevity of PW that I think we've lost track of where the manufactures are going. How old is your TV, cell phone and all of the consumer electronics. The manufactures of our trains are starting to think like they do and assume you will have tossed the trains you bought this year for the "new" ones that they will sell in five years.

Its how it now is.

All well and good, but I'm not interested in paying a thousand dollars and above for a locomotive that will fall apart, when I can get a Postwar locomotive that's lived through falls off tables, collisions, mice in attics, Rock and Roll and the Bossa Nova, still be fully intact and run after a standard servicing - and not break $100 - $200!

Not any different an issue than at any other time in history in this hobby.  All scales of toy trains have suffered from inconsistencies in the casting metals used for ever.  The reason you don't see it in the older trains is that they are gone already. 

Buy brass instead.  It doesn't suffer from such issues.

Hmm.. I guess I wanted to hear that at any minute cottage industries all over the US were going to spring into action making replacement parts for these masterpieces..I will treasure my allegheny as a priceless antique not to be touched,  I have some legacy gp-30s perhaps those will be ok to run..i do appreciate the responses, it makes me feel that i am perhaps seeing this correctly...

Eddie Marra posted:

All well and good, but I'm not interested in paying a thousand dollars and above for a locomotive that will fall apart, when I can get a Postwar locomotive that's lived through falls off tables, collisions, mice in attics, Rock and Roll and the Bossa Nova, still be fully intact and run after a standard servicing - and not break $100 - $200!

Even lived through disco!

Anyway, the zinc pest problem and short-lived electronics full of proprietary parts is one reason that I like the older two-rail stuff. For example, this FM switcher is over fifty years old and has no real problems:

I have a 455 that doesn't go up or down. I tried new circuit board. No change. Help

All electronic products made today are designed as disposables. When they break you just throw them in the garbage.

It is a shame that in this day and age, that you still face problems like zinc rot that effected the 700e back in the late 30's. Appliances and other consumer products don't last long any more and generally aren't worth fixing, and with cell phones now at the 1 grand mark (and unlike the past, the carriers don't pick up the cost any more), you do replace an expensive item. That said, though, many consumer products like appliances are cheaper than they once were, tv sets today are ridiculously cheap compared to their forbears,and appliances are relatively cheap as well. The thing about 1500 dollar toy trains becoming unusable in 5, 10 years, is that they are not appliances, they are pure discretionary income spending, and something you don't exactly use like you do a phone or appliance, so you are talking something that is relatively lightly used comparitively, that costs a lot. So basically what you have is something that is pretty expensive and might as well have been designed to fail, especially with the electronics, for something that is a pure discretionary purchase (sorry, these days cell phones, especially smart phones, have become so integrated into doing things like working, buying things, controlling things in the house, it no longer is a pure luxury it once was, not to mention try making a call someplace when your cell phone dies...). The other thing is by the time it dies,unlike a consumer good, you likely won't be able to replace it,given these are models of specific engines. You might get lucky and find an NOS someone has, or you might find a used one that is running okay, but that kind of becomes less and less likely, especially given the relatively small production runs for these. 

As someone else said, it is what it is, you are dealing with semi custom product made in small numbers, and you have to buy the thing knowing that there will come a day, not that far in the future, where it will become either a paperweight, or where you revert it to basically conventional operation with a reverse unit to run it. 

The above post is a very good reason to only buy Sunset Third  rail forever brass engines.  A manufacture who actually responds to customers on this open forum.

The person who dies with the best toys is dead.

If I felt the way you do I’d stay with N scale. Why drive yourself nuts worrying about zinc rot. I started in Ogauge mid eighties and own more than 20 premium Lionel steamers and have never experienced zinc rot although I know it’s out there. As far as electronics, there will always be something new to keep you running.

Change hobbies, take up basket weaving.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Change hobbies, take up basket weaving.

I tried that, the baskets dried up and crumbled 

I think you answered your own question!   They will fall apart from zinc rot.

I haven't seen very many posts on this forum about zinc rot and my collector and operator friends have not complained about it either.  I think that this problem is rare.  Many people on this forum have engines that are 20 plus years old.

The only zinc rot problems that I have had was with a few trucks and couplers.  They can be replaced.  I am sorry that you have an engine with the problem but I don't think you will need to worry about most of the engines that you purchase will fall apart.  

The electronics are another story.  There is usually a way to fix most electronic problems.   

NH Joe

Actually, the one that's really killing me is all of those scale Lionel GG1's with zinc rotting side frames.

New Haven Joe posted:

I haven't seen very many posts on this forum about zinc rot and my collector and operator friends have not complained about it either.  I think that this problem is rare.  Many people on this forum have engines that are 20 plus years old.

The only zinc rot problems that I have had was with a few trucks and couplers.  They can be replaced.  I am sorry that you have an engine with the problem but I don't think you will need to worry about most of the engines that you purchase will fall apart.  

The electronics are another story.  There is usually a way to fix most electronic problems.   

NH Joe

 

So apparently my engine is an exception and not the rule?  I think it would have stung less had it not been the first steamer i bought in o scale ,,,as opposed to getting a few good ones then picking up one bad.  I did have this idea that the body would always be there in die cast as opposed to plastic which may have been another misconception.  Learning a bunch from this site anyways...and yes i got all the usual "stick to n scale or quit the hobby if you dont like it" answers that i knew i would get.  I guess its a tough hobby. 

To **** bad😥

Well I'll scratch those off my down the road list.😔

Nothing like Hecho en China.😤

bigkid posted:

It is a shame that in this day and age, that you still face problems like zinc rot that effected the 700e back in the late 30's. Appliances and other consumer products don't last long any more and generally aren't worth fixing, and with cell phones now at the 1 grand mark (and unlike the past, the carriers don't pick up the cost any more), you do replace an expensive item. That said, though, many consumer products like appliances are cheaper than they once were, tv sets today are ridiculously cheap compared to their forbears,and appliances are relatively cheap as well. The thing about 1500 dollar toy trains becoming unusable in 5, 10 years, is that they are not appliances, they are pure discretionary income spending, and something you don't exactly use like you do a phone or appliance, so you are talking something that is relatively lightly used comparitively, that costs a lot. So basically what you have is something that is pretty expensive and might as well have been designed to fail, especially with the electronics, for something that is a pure discretionary purchase (sorry, these days cell phones, especially smart phones, have become so integrated into doing things like working, buying things, controlling things in the house, it no longer is a pure luxury it once was, not to mention try making a call someplace when your cell phone dies...). The other thing is by the time it dies,unlike a consumer good, you likely won't be able to replace it,given these are models of specific engines. You might get lucky and find an NOS someone has, or you might find a used one that is running okay, but that kind of becomes less and less likely, especially given the relatively small production runs for these. 

As someone else said, it is what it is, you are dealing with semi custom product made in small numbers, and you have to buy the thing knowing that there will come a day, not that far in the future, where it will become either a paperweight, or where you revert it to basically conventional operation with a reverse unit to run it. 

I had to replace my flip phone the other day because the one I had for about six years gave out.  Cost $49.95.  Why you ask, don't I have a smart phone?  Well, I'll tell you.  I don't have time to own a smart phone.  Everyone I know spends every minute they have on their phone.  No body gets anything done anymore because they are on the phone.  How does that relate to zinc rot.  Not really sure but all my phones from the bricks to the flips have been really good.  And, if I could buy any of my engines without electronics I would.  They too, like PW Lionel would probably be running 50 years from now.  Maybe this relates somehow.

No zinc rot so far.  Am I doing something wrong, something right or just lucky?

I'd rather be ice fishing posted: Learning a bunch from this site anyways...and yes i got all the usual "stick to n scale or quit the hobby if you dont like it" answers that i knew i would get.  I guess its a tough hobby. 

Well, that's the thing: people who respond like that are doing NO ONE any favors, least of all themselves. I don't see the point in that.

I have a couple of HO scale John English steamers from the 1960s(?) that show that rot issue; fortunately, they were made at a time when you were expected to know how to fix things yourself, and parts were available to do so; very much like PW Lionel and Flyer. Thanks to the web, and resources like eBay, you can always find the parts you need if you look long enough.

Will the same be true of modern releases? Only time will tell, but these very sophisticated electronic systems we see now (to say nothing about the rot issue) seem hard enough to trouble shoot and repair when "new"; a quick glance at recent posts on this site bear that out.

10, 15, 20 years from now will these trains still be "user-friendly"? Guess we'll have to wait and see...

Mark in Oregon

Wow, everyone is responding as though zinc rot is a certainty?!  Is that true?  

romiller49 posted:

If I felt the way you do I’d stay with N scale. Why drive yourself nuts worrying about zinc rot. I started in Ogauge mid eighties and own more than 20 premium Lionel steamers and have never experienced zinc rot although I know it’s out there. As far as electronics, there will always be something new to keep you running.

N scale has plenty of problems with zinc pest - a lot of Rivarossi for Atlas steam engines and diesels have crumbled frames (and if the frame isn't crumbling then the motor is probably junk from overheating). I recently got an Intermountain SD45 that had a chassis that crumbled when I removed it from the shell. Possibility of repair for the Rivarossi is slim - best start scouring Ebay and the ever popular combing the junk boxes under tables. The Intermountain folks will send me a replacement chassis once they find a new supplier (sound familiar)?

Fred Brenek posted:

Actually, the one that's really killing me is all of those scale Lionel GG1's with zinc rotting side frames.

I feel your pain because I've got one of those myself.   And still no replacement parts from Lionel!

Chief Boob (Retired)

Zinc pest has been an issue for you Trains in the past, especially the pre war era.  Take dorfan dust, for example. Usually modern castings are stable, but sometimes a certain batch of models has issues.  Marklin ho scale has had a few cases of this in modern history. 

New Haven Joe posted:

I haven't seen very many posts on this forum about zinc rot and my collector and operator friends have not complained about it either.  I think that this problem is rare.  Many people on this forum have engines that are 20 plus years old.

The only zinc rot problems that I have had was with a few trucks and couplers.  They can be replaced.  I am sorry that you have an engine with the problem but I don't think you will need to worry about most of the engines that you purchase will fall apart.  

 

Exactly what I would say. Basically, zinc rot is very, very rare. 

Where are your trains displayed?

Mine are in a basement average temperature 60 degrees 45% humiditystores this way in cotton or microfiber cloths

sme engines 20 years some 10 years some 1 or 2 years

I hope you're right.

I saw on a Z scale forum this same issue with some recent released Geep 38s, I believe. It's possible I suppose, that the QC issues we see in other aspects of our models could sometimes appear in the form of impurities in the metal parts as well...

Mark in Oregon

Eddie Marra posted:

Scotie posted:

In O gauge we're so used to the longevity of PW that I think we've lost track of where the manufactures are going. How old is your TV, cell phone and all of the consumer electronics. The manufactures of our trains are starting to think like they do and assume you will have tossed the trains you bought this year for the "new" ones that they will sell in five years.

Its how it now is.

All well and good, but I'm not interested in paying a thousand dollars and above for a locomotive that will fall apart, when I can get a Postwar locomotive that's lived through falls off tables, collisions, mice in attics, Rock and Roll and the Bossa Nova, still be fully intact and run after a standard servicing - and not break $100 - $200!

Its any consumer good. They are all junk. 2005 bought a 55” hitachi plasma tv, like $4200 then  beautiful tv loved he picture . It lasted about 5 years. Board failure which i tried to replace myself but never got it quite right . Next up sharp 70” was cheaper as prices come down. Worked great 3-4 yeaes and then black screen. Funny part comes next. We buy a samsung 65” suhd quantum. Meanwhile I hit up my bad caps electronics forum and find my sharp is prone to a specific screen failure since it has foil se mosfets down each side of the screen. From the forum I learn you can sometimes remove the right side foil (which is the fail prone section) and live on. Did the trick and walla, she worked and still does to this day with no apparent changes is screen quality.  The best part of the story is I fixed it to put in my garage. 😎 but wife refused that option .  To this day the 65” Samsung sits mint in the box. Having long since wasted the extended warranty she bought with it. We’ve never plugged it in. So, what are the chances it will work someday? Lol. 

So to me it’s all junk. If a high volume  everyday item like a tv can’t last 5 years why on earth would you think a train would? No offense, but seriously?

ps, I love prewR and postwar and I agree they are indestructable!

I agree with New Haven Joe above. I have not seen many posts here about zinc pest (rot) so I don't think it is all that common. The posts I remember seeing on the subject were about trucks, wheels, etc. that were apparently also available as replacement parts. I don't recall seeing them about the main body of the train other than some very old items, like pre-war. Seems to be something that just happens from time to time, although I think pretty rarely. From what I have read about it, it has been a problem in most or all scales at one time or another, as others have also pointed out above. 

Several of my engines are over fifteen years old without rot. I've never seen it myself. And all work fine with some repairs done.

In the meantime -

I threw away a useless $900 VCR plus tapes.

I' m on my third generation of home computer and third generation of cell phone.

Third car too.

and discarded several CRT TVs.

But my Lionel and MTH engines are still a joy to run.

Yes, Zinc pest has been a problem since the first diecast zinc alloys were used.  It is the result of lead (Pb) or other impurities in the melt. So if you think about it, it means if I am making a run of boilers on a machine and my melt is poisoned, all of them will be bad.  If I make ten separate runs, and only one run was poisoned, then 1/10th of my production is bad.  This is also why you will find locos with bad wheels but other parts good for example.  These attachments are not mine, but are representative of what is going on.  I've seen zinc pest In everything that you can think of that might have used a zinc alloy casting, and you probably have as well. Slotcar frames, automobile outer mirror castings (Triumph in my case), kitchen appliances (blender etc) heater duct blower motor frame on my 72 Porsche, etc, etc, etc.  That shell is a an MTH railking tender I saw on ebay.  So considering it is the result of poor quality control in effect, and most of your train suppliers get stuff from China, and do not have control over the factory, AND the failure does NOT usually manifest itself immediately, it should be easy to see how this can happen repeatedly and really, there is not much Lionel or MTH or XXX can do about it after the fact.  We all know most of these mfr's do not really stock spare parts any more.  They make  xx number of extra items and those are robbed for spares as needed. When Lionel lived in Michigan, they did have spare parts, shells etc. They also did their own casting...

My oldest "new" die cast locomotives are 8-9 years old and no zinc pest. 

I did some reading and it seems the issue occurs in the alloy mixing process, so basically it's a time bomb.  As such, not sure there's anything to be done to mitigate it, like storing in a cool dry location, etc.  

In terms of the various "trains, like all newer consumer goods, are all junk" comments, this is a rationalization.  My Sony flat screens are all 10 plus years old and no issues. Same with my clock radios, some of which are 30 plus years old. Same with my stereo, toaster, fridge, microwave, bicycle, etc.  But those comparisons are all off topic.  No one in their right mind would spend $1,000 - $2,000 on a high-end toy locomotive assuming it will disintegrate in 5 years.   

Every once in a while I dream that sometime in the future a third party will see a business opportunity to provide generic boards at a reasonable price which will restore basic function to the hanger queens.  Or maybe someday, we will be looking through that junker box under the table and it will be full of Big Boys available for scrap parts.

VistaDomeScott posted:

Tinplate Art posted:

Seriously, ALL trains/gauges can be frustrating and disappointing at times; unfortunately, it goes with the territory!

Wow, you aren't kidding!!!!!!shelf display only, beautiful but useless TurboTrain.  

How is it useless? It's pretty!

shorling posted:

Every once in a while I dream that sometime in the future a third party will see a business opportunity to provide generic boards at a reasonable price which will restore basic function to the hanger queens.  Or maybe someday, we will be looking through that junker box under the table and it will be full of Big Boys available for scrap parts.

I think you do see a few of those on ebay now, or at least I do.  Some of em pretty cheap.

PUFFRBELLY posted:

Fred Brenek posted:

Actually, the one that's really killing me is all of those scale Lionel GG1's with zinc rotting side frames.

I feel your pain because I've got one of those myself.   And still no replacement parts from Lionel!

Chief Boob (Retired)

There was recently one of those on ebay for about $105.. was very tempting too.

Dennis Holler posted:

shorling posted:

Every once in a while I dream that sometime in the future a third party will see a business opportunity to provide generic boards at a reasonable price which will restore basic function to the hanger queens.  Or maybe someday, we will be looking through that junker box under the table and it will be full of Big Boys available for scrap parts.

I think you do see a few of those on ebay now, or at least I do.  Some of em pretty cheap.

.59 cent bridge rectifier can even get a Big Boy goin forward again if the electronics go out! 

Now that Radio Shack is kaput, where is a good source for those?

Mark in Oregon

I don't worry about stuff I can't control, in the mean time I enjoy what I have. There are far too many things to worry about and my trains are not one of them. 

Dave

Strummer posted:

Now that Radio Shack is kaput, where is a good source for those?

Mark in Oregon

ebay…...you can get a bag full of them for cheap!....they have a lot more uses than just reviving dead locos too!

harmonyards posted:

Dennis Holler posted:

shorling posted:

Every once in a while I dream that sometime in the future a third party will see a business opportunity to provide generic boards at a reasonable price which will restore basic function to the hanger queens.  Or maybe someday, we will be looking through that junker box under the table and it will be full of Big Boys available for scrap parts.

I think you do see a few of those on ebay now, or at least I do.  Some of em pretty cheap.

.59 cent bridge rectifier can even get a Big Boy goin forward again if the electronics go out! 

Yes sir, did exactly that with  a Railking K4 and two Williams Brass K4's.  I was a real dirtbag and wired in an American Flyer reverse unit too lol.

Dennis Holler posted:

harmonyards posted:

Dennis Holler posted:

shorling posted:

Every once in a while I dream that sometime in the future a third party will see a business opportunity to provide generic boards at a reasonable price which will restore basic function to the hanger queens.  Or maybe someday, we will be looking through that junker box under the table and it will be full of Big Boys available for scrap parts.

I think you do see a few of those on ebay now, or at least I do.  Some of em pretty cheap.

.59 cent bridge rectifier can even get a Big Boy goin forward again if the electronics go out! 

Yes sir, did exactly that with  a Railking K4 and two Williams Brass K4's.  I was a real dirtbag and wired in an American Flyer reverse unit too lol.

that's what Im talkin about!!! HA HA HA!!...whatever it takes with whatever we got lying around!....

I'd be just as concerned that current trends is that a $1,200 engine is going for $300 in 10 years on eBay.

harmonyards posted:

Dennis Holler posted:

harmonyards posted:

Dennis Holler posted:

shorling posted:

Every once in a while I dream that sometime in the future a third party will see a business opportunity to provide generic boards at a reasonable price which will restore basic function to the hanger queens.  Or maybe someday, we will be looking through that junker box under the table and it will be full of Big Boys available for scrap parts.

I think you do see a few of those on ebay now, or at least I do.  Some of em pretty cheap.

.59 cent bridge rectifier can even get a Big Boy goin forward again if the electronics go out! 

Yes sir, did exactly that with  a Railking K4 and two Williams Brass K4's.  I was a real dirtbag and wired in an American Flyer reverse unit too lol.

that's what Im talkin about!!! HA HA HA!!...whatever it takes with whatever we got lying around!....

I am 75 years old.  Am I worried about zinc rot twenty five years from now?  I hope I'll be running my trains in five years and leave the worrying to whomever owns them in twenty five years.  The worst zinc rot case I ever had was a Kodak Carousel slide projector I inherited from my late father.  I had to discard the whole thing.  Haven't viewed slides since then.   ODD-D

Dennis Holler posted:

harmonyards posted:

Dennis Holler posted:

harmonyards posted:

Dennis Holler posted:

shorling posted:

Every once in a while I dream that sometime in the future a third party will see a business opportunity to provide generic boards at a reasonable price which will restore basic function to the hanger queens.  Or maybe someday, we will be looking through that junker box under the table and it will be full of Big Boys available for scrap parts.

I think you do see a few of those on ebay now, or at least I do.  Some of em pretty cheap.

.59 cent bridge rectifier can even get a Big Boy goin forward again if the electronics go out! 

Yes sir, did exactly that with  a Railking K4 and two Williams Brass K4's.  I was a real dirtbag and wired in an American Flyer reverse unit too lol.

that's what Im talkin about!!! HA HA HA!!...whatever it takes with whatever we got lying around!....

no lie....if you had a lionel part somewhere on that loco …..you'd be my hero!! that's  awesome!....wire up a lionel smoke unit!...It takes a Ford part to make a Chevrolet run right!

Dennis Rempel posted:

I'd be just as concerned that current trends is that a $1,200 engine is going for $300 in 10 years on eBay.

Yep and that's how I felt when my nib right of way industries $1800.00 PRR T1 dropped dramatically in value when the Lionel T1 came out in 2000.

Now I see that a lot when viewing these Auction sites like Stout and TrainZ and I bid accordingly and not above my head or bank account!

Unfortunately, zinc pest is a lot more common than most people think. The problem is related to specific batches of zinc alloy that get contaminated with lead. Most US and European white metal casters figured this out back in the 1930s. By 1950, much of the problem had disappeared. It returned when manufacturing went overseas. At this point, I think the small mom and pop Chinese foundries are the most likely source of the problem, as they scrounge whatever they can find and throw it in the pot. There is no QC on the melt, so who knows what is in it. Too much lead, and the time bomb starts ticking. It's not a matter of if, but when. And the issue is not specific to a particular brand. MTH, Lionel, Weaver, Atlas, K-Line, they all have it to some degree or another. Until the brands get together and tell the foundries they need to produce quality melt, and show proof that they are in fact producing quality melt, the problem will continue. Unfortunately, the "proof" part costs money and requires expertise which may be unavailable to the foundries.

Chris

LVHR

It doesn't really matter as there will be little interest in trains from the youngsters.

Same thing on muscle cars of the 60s and 70s. Even the Shelbys are leveling out.

Dennis Holler posted:

That shell is a an MTH railking tender I saw on ebay.  So considering it is the result of poor quality control in effect, and most of your train suppliers get stuff from China, and do not have control over the factory, AND the failure does NOT usually manifest itself immediately, it should be easy to see how this can happen repeatedly and really, there is not much Lionel or MTH or XXX can do about it after the fact.  We all know most of these mfr's do not really stock spare parts any more.  They make  xx number of extra items and those are robbed for spares as needed. When Lionel lived in Michigan, they did have spare parts, shells etc. They also did their own casting...

Yep, the problem being they use the manufacturing batch to make the spares so they have the same issues. 

I think Chris summed it up perfectly.

FWIW: I have had over the years, like most of us, many different types of models by different manufacturers. Other than the previously mentioned English locos, I once picked up an AHM/Rivarossi 2-10-2 at a show for next to nothing. It wanted to run, but couldn't. Upon opening it up, the large metal weight piece inside the boiler literally spilled out from zinc rot. Fortunately I was able to find a replacement part on eBay and that was that. So it does happen on occasion to "older" models, but not often. The fact that we're seeing it on these newer models is cause for concern, I think.

Mark in Oregon 

Proves my point: Since most man made objects, especially those containing zinc alloy castings, apparently have relatively short lives before some measure of disintegration occurs, ENJOY them in the moment, and not for a largely indeterminate future! Ultimately, our very own corporeal entities are gradually progressing toward decay!

Ron H posted:

It doesn't really matter as there will be little interest in trains from the youngsters.

Same thing on muscle cars of the 60s and 70s. Even the Shelbys are leveling out.

Ron, 

I only attend two train shows per year, including the huge Amherst show.  I can tell you that, while these shows are attended by lot of the same close-minded curmudgeons that you hear from on this forum, there is a growing number of very young people and they are interested in toy trains.  I also see families with young children (with glowing faces) exiting these shows hauling new r-t-r train sets. 

In terms of muscle cars, I don't think this is a good comparison - my opinion.  Cars have a real life function and very many appreciate in value.  And, a car like the AC Cobra has increased in value exponentially - unlike any model train being discussed.  If the price has "stabilized" it's because the real thing is out of reach for most folks. But you do see an ever increasing number of kit cars out there. Point being, the interest in this car clearly remains and is increasing - but this might not be obvious from the sale prices for the real version.  

The title of this thread should be changed to reflect all manufacturers.  As others have pointed out this isn't just a Lionel issue.

To the OP: I really feel bad for you. You got a real sh&t sandwich with that locomotive. Especially that it is your first O Gauge steam locomotive. That totally stinks. I would be pretty upset if it happened to one of mine because it takes me a lot of saving to buy a $1200 locomotive. 

Do we really know how prevalent this problem is? Wouldn’t we need to know how many locomotives were produced over the last 20 years and approximately how many have the zinc rot problem? (Assuming there are some that are still NIB that have the zinc rot problem but it is unknown to the owner). I know this won’t help the OP locomotive but if we had this information and knew that the percentage of locomotives effected were a small number it would give enthusiasts such as the OP more confidence to stay with O Gauge. 

As someone mentioned on Page 1 this problem sure does make a good case for buying Sunset/3rd Rail locomotives. I have seen many at good prices on the secondary market. 

It's not only the zinc issue, it's the lack of parts for these expensive engines. Most manufacturers are lucky to have parts 2 years after it's made. I get so frustrated when someone brings an engine in to get fixed and call up to get parts and the part isn't available.  What the heck am I supposed to tell the customer???? I try and match something up but doesn't always work. I've had both big companies tell me they are in the business to sell trains not repair them. No thanks, this exactly why I took down my big hi rail layout and going back to old stuff.

My question is, is this just limited to Lionel? or does this also happen with MTH? I do remember this happening with some of K-Line old passenger cars I believe. 

rtraincollector posted:

My question is, is this just limited to Lionel? or does this also happen with MTH? I do remember this happening with some of K-Line old passenger cars I believe. 

No it is not limited to Lionel.  MTH has definitely had issues as well.  Not sure about 3rd rail but one can assume it could happen to any of the importers.  That's why the thread title is misleading.

Ron H posted:

It doesn't really matter as there will be little interest in trains from the youngsters.

Same thing on muscle cars of the 60s and 70s. Even the Shelbys are leveling out.

If you faithfully watch many of the car auction shows on cable tv and see the prices those cars fetch, I'm at a loss as to the basis of your above comment.

MartyE posted:

The title of this thread should be changed to reflect all manufacturers.  As others have pointed out this isn't just a Lionel issue.

Of course it isn't, MartyE, since  many of the train manufacturers share the same manufacturing facilities and equipment therein.

Dennis Rempel posted:

I'd be just as concerned that current trends is that a $1,200 engine is going for $300 in 10 years on eBay.

Most 10 year old cars take a pretty good hit also.

   Bill T.

When I sell a train I'm not worried if it's still selling for what I paid. Chances are pretty good I got my money's worth.  I sell to thin the herd and price the item to sell.  

ogaugeguy posted:

Ron H posted:

It doesn't really matter as there will be little interest in trains from the youngsters.

Same thing on muscle cars of the 60s and 70s. Even the Shelbys are leveling out.

If you faithfully watch many of the car auction shows on cable tv and see the prices those cars fetch, I'm at a loss as to the basis of your above comment.

I'm 32 years old I love old cars cause my family is into older cars ,tractors etc. Most guys or girls my age don't care the least bit about older cars or trains. They are into Subaru and Toyota cars, which is what they like. The 50,60 and even 70 and 80's cars they hate. The older generation are still buying antique cars but my generation isn't, that's where problem is.

Dmaxdeere87 posted:

ogaugeguy posted:

Ron H posted:

It doesn't really matter as there will be little interest in trains from the youngsters.

Same thing on muscle cars of the 60s and 70s. Even the Shelbys are leveling out.

If you faithfully watch many of the car auction shows on cable tv and see the prices those cars fetch, I'm at a loss as to the basis of your above comment.

I'm 32 years old I love old cars cause my family is into older cars ,tractors etc. Most guys or girls my age don't care the least bit about older cars or trains. They are into Subaru and Toyota cars, which is what they like. The 50,60 and even 70 and 80's cars they hate. The older generation are still buying antique cars but my generation isn't, that's where problem is.

I agree. Do you think at some point the prices of HEMI ‘Cudas will come down far enough that I can afford one? I guess I have to try to out live the older generation. 

For me is buy it used or old new stock at the fraction of the price. This way when it fall apart you do not loose that much, plus you can always kit bash something together or sell it for parts

My opinion is, in general, it's a society shift or transition. More people desire new and won't be bothered by used or fixing/upgrading something old etc.  It's not all or nothing I know, but it does seem to be growing as a norm with people in general.  It seems that a good portion of those people couldn't care less about anything that is old.  Does not matter if it was a 30 year old Maytag washer or a 68 Yenko Camaro.  To them, old is old and therefore not worth the time or just worthless and undesirable in general.  The Camaro is no more interesting to them than a rusty tin spoon would be.

Consider this though.  Even though the % of people interested in such old things is maybe lower, there may still be just as many people in number due to normal population growth.  Even if % of people with interest dwindles, the cream of those items will still be the cream.

on base, maybe off, maybe half and half .... who knows

PJB posted:

Wow, everyone is responding as though zinc rot is a certainty?!  Is that true?  

Not that I've seen.  Mind you, I don't own any "modern" Lionel locomotives -- the newest one I have was made about 1991.  None of them (fingers crossed) have shown any signs of zinc rot.

The only time I've encountered zinc rot was when I restored my father's 1929 Lionel 252 locomotive.  The wheels had crumbled away and had to be replaced with Bowser reproductions.

As an aside, there's really NO excuse for zinc rot still being a problem.  All manufacturers have known about the problem for many years, and have had more than ample time to correct it.  The fact that they evidently haven't tells me that they don't particularly care.

An interesting facet of this issue is that I have in my collection a Marx 999, 333 and 666.  All have die-cast metal boilers, none of which show any zinc rot at all.  In fact, the metal they used doesn't even appear to my eye to be zinc.  Whatever it is, it has survived intact for many years.  Why, then, do today's makers continue to use zinc, when it is known to be a source of problems for at least a minority percentage of their products?

The usual "answer," of course, is that it would be more expensive to use other metals.  And yet, I see no signs that modern locomotive manufacturers have any qualms about making their models more expensive.

Even though zinc rot is by no means inevitable, the posts on this (and other) threads tell me that it occurs often enough to be taken far more seriously by Lionel and other hobby manufacturers.

You don't have t worry about Zinc rot. They won't have parts to make repairs anyway.

Hudson J1e posted:

I agree. Do you think at some point the prices of HEMI ‘Cudas will come down far enough that I can afford one? I guess I have to try to out live the older generation. 

Ha! Like Pre War repaints, that is a market loaded with buyer beware!!! Ever watch some of those TV shows where they have a VIN number attached to a rusted hulk and replace almost all the other sheet metal? Is it now a restored car or an aftermarket/custom car? Hemi prices will fall, maybe sooner since the signing of the 15% Ethanol bill yesterday.

Ironically, this is just one of the issues over which I think the major manufacturers like MTH and Lionel might be taking a very short term view and thereby shooting themselves in the foot.

It's true they appear to have no qualms in raising prices - and I'm ok paying them.  But in parallel, I keep reading about (and experiencing) QC issues and this has caused an overhaul in our buying.  As a couple of "for instances," I stopped buying MTH locomotives completely in 2015 because of the volume of DCS issues and jerky diesel operation - even though I love the craftsmanship, level of product detail, and the suite of DCS features.  Similarly, I used to buy 2 copies of every Vision locomotive and every other Lionel locomotive I even remotely liked, as I have twin sons and we love all the amazing operating features.  But due to QC issues and concerns over things like zinc pest, we now buy only one copy - and only of those very few locomotives that fill a specific need that cannot otherwise be filled by something in our existing stable.  

If the QC was what we should expect for items this expensive, I for one would be buying so much much more.  I would imagine this would benefit the majors in the given fiscal quarter and in the long term.  I think I'm not alone in thinking this way and the adjusted buying protocol. 

If the zinc pest is indeed caused by the lead being out of specification or they do not have the proper specification, the problem is the manufacturer.  Apple and Google sell $600- $1000 smart phones with much tighter specifications that are made in the same foreign countries without these kinds of problems with quality, so the train manufactures can make quality trains too.  They just do not care to make the effort to buy zinc that meets a tight lead specification and to test each batch as to whether it meets specification because we keep buying them.

I would not buy trains from these poor quality manufacturers.  We need to develop a list of the trains models and their manufacturers and start a Bad Quality Trains post on this forum.  It is ridicules to put up with poor quality $600 plus engines and other trains (or any train gear regardless of cost).  We need to call attention to the problem and force them make model trains that meet their quality specifications.

Charlie

lehighline posted:

Unfortunately, zinc pest is a lot more common than most people think. The problem is related to specific batches of zinc alloy that get contaminated with lead. Most US and European white metal casters figured this out back in the 1930s. By 1950, much of the problem had disappeared. It returned when manufacturing went overseas. At this point, I think the small mom and pop Chinese foundries are the most likely source of the problem, as they scrounge whatever they can find and throw it in the pot. There is no QC on the melt, so who knows what is in it. Too much lead, and the time bomb starts ticking. It's not a matter of if, but when. And the issue is not specific to a particular brand. MTH, Lionel, Weaver, Atlas, K-Line, they all have it to some degree or another. Until the brands get together and tell the foundries they need to produce quality melt, and show proof that they are in fact producing quality melt, the problem will continue. Unfortunately, the "proof" part costs money and requires expertise which may be unavailable to the foundries.

 

Chris

LVHR

"using 99.99% pure zinc metal to avoid the problem, and articles made after 1960 are usually considered free of the risk of zinc pest since the use of purer materials and more controlled manufacturing conditions make zinc pest degradation unlikely."

Chris is absolutely correct here, this disappeared in the 1960s only to reappear in an unregulated manufacturing environment overseas.

 steve

Ron H posted:

It doesn't really matter as there will be little interest in trains from the youngsters.

Same thing on muscle cars of the 60s and 70s. Even the Shelbys are leveling out.

80's and 90's cars are going up in value, especially exotics. Game systems and toys from the same time period are as well. "Younger" people are interested in things from when they were young. It's the same for every generation. In 20 years I'll be able to buy 60's muscle cars on the cheap, which will be great for me.

Never worry about the future value of hobby items. Enjoy them for the value they bring to you, and nothing more.

All consumer products, goods and forms of life will ultimatley be returned to the earth to decompose. If your worried about trains you got bigger problems my friend. Nick

Bill T posted:

Dennis Rempel posted:

I'd be just as concerned that current trends is that a $1,200 engine is going for $300 in 10 years on eBay.

Most 10 year old cars take a pretty good hit also.

   Bill T.

I certainly agree with this one and I'd also say 'pretty good hit' is an understatement! I've been looking at new cars again...I do this every couple of years. My 11 year old Ford looks much better after each outing or internet pricing. 

Choo Choo Charlie posted:

If the zinc pest is indeed caused by the lead being out of specification or they do not have the proper specification, the problem is the manufacturer.  Apple and Google sell $600- $1000 smart phones with much tighter specifications that are made in the same foreign countries without these kinds of problems with quality, so the train manufactures can make quality trains too.  They just do not care to make the effort to buy zinc that meets a tight lead specification and to test each batch as to whether it meets specification because we keep buying them.

I would not buy trains from these poor quality manufacturers.  We need to develop a list of the trains models and their manufacturers and start a Bad Quality Trains post on this forum.  It is ridicules to put up with poor quality $600 plus engines and other trains (or any train gear regardless of cost).  We need to call attention to the problem and force them make model trains that meet their quality specifications.

Charlie

With respect, this is a very simplistic view.  For anyone who manufactures overseas, especially in China, there's a whol lot more to it.  I worked for the premier power generation equipment company for many years. Despite setting up factories in China with work processes, manufacturing protocols, work instructions, and hand-picked supervisors and directors, daily calls, and so on, the only time things were made correctly and shipped on time was when we sent our domestic folks over to the factories to implement and oversee everything.  Boots on the ground for extended periods. And the cost that goes with that, including salary enhancements, bonuses, living expenses, monthly return trips to visit family, and most everything else, including meals, hotels, cars, etc all going on expense reports.  For a relatively tiny company like Lionel or any other tiny toy train manufacturer, I couldn't imagine this type of expenditure.  Presumably, they've figured out a better model for their needs.  

The amount of whining on this forum is ridiculous.  Some of you guys should just try eating prunes regularly.  

 I hope that some of you that are constantly unhappy can find a way to rediscover enjoyment in this hobby, or in another hobby.  Life is too short to constantly complain about such trivial things.  

This is a weird thread.  I had post war with no rot, I have engines over twenty years old and no rot.  I've been told by Lionel reps they have worked very hard to eliminate/prevent zinc rot.   10 years my butt, try 100

Dennis Holler posted:

Its any consumer good. They are all junk. 2005 bought a 55” hitachi plasma tv, like $4200 then  beautiful tv loved he picture . It lasted about 5 years. Board failure...

So to me it’s all junk. If a high volume  everyday item like a tv can’t last 5 years why on earth would you think a train would? No offense, but seriously?

 

ps, I love prewR and postwar and I agree they are indestructable!

Dennis,

  All good points. Here is your solution...All you need to do is find a Prewar TV somewhere!  

Tom 

Ray Lombardo posted:

The amount of whining on this forum is ridiculous.  Some of you guys should just try eating prunes regularly.  

 I hope that some of you that are constantly unhappy can find a way to rediscover enjoyment in this hobby, or in another hobby.  Life is too short to constantly complain about such trivial things.  

 

 

Great post. I totally agree. But it's a fair point to expect a $1000 - $2000 toy to be very well made.  

MNCW posted:

Dennis Holler posted:

Its any consumer good. They are all junk. 2005 bought a 55” hitachi plasma tv, like $4200 then  beautiful tv loved he picture . It lasted about 5 years. Board failure...

So to me it’s all junk. If a high volume  everyday item like a tv can’t last 5 years why on earth would you think a train would? No offense, but seriously?

 

ps, I love prewR and postwar and I agree they are indestructable!

Dennis,

  All good points. Here is your solution...All you need to do is find a Prewar TV somewhere!  

Tom 

Apparently there were about 7000 TV set manufactured in the US before WWII.  I am sure there are a few out there somewhere that are operating.  As to 21st. Century toy locomotives heavily laden with electronics operating 50 years from now, that remains to be seen.  My 671 from 1952, absolutely.

Choo Choo Charlie posted:

They just do not care to make the effort to buy zinc that meets a tight lead specification and to test each batch as to whether it meets specification.......

Probably many would be interested to know the facts you have to support that statement.

I think it might be time to close this thread....

Mark in Oregon

Bill DeBrooke posted:

MNCW posted:

Dennis Holler posted:

Its any consumer good. They are all junk. 2005 bought a 55” hitachi plasma tv, like $4200 then  beautiful tv loved he picture . It lasted about 5 years. Board failure...

So to me it’s all junk. If a high volume  everyday item like a tv can’t last 5 years why on earth would you think a train would? No offense, but seriously?

 

ps, I love prewR and postwar and I agree they are indestructable!

Dennis,

  All good points. Here is your solution...All you need to do is find a Prewar TV somewhere!  

Tom 

Apparently there were about 7000 TV set manufactured in the US before WWII.  I am sure there are a few out there somewhere that are operating.  As to 21st. Century toy locomotives heavily laden with electronics operating 50 years from now, that remains to be seen.  My 671 from 1952, absolutely.

As is my 262 with 262T from 1931/32 still doing well.

rockstars1989 posted:

All consumer products, goods and forms of life will ultimatley be returned to the earth to decompose. If your worried about trains you got bigger problems my friend. 

Yeah. And I've got that age rot. I'm sure I'll beat any zinc rot into the ground. 

I'd rather be ice fishing posted:

My Allegheny was built in the 1990s and lionel had no replacement parts for me nor did they seem overly concerned with my plight.  I ended up moneying my way out of it by buying a whole tender shell with good doors from a helpful dealers NOS and I got the impression that was the last one on earth.  It was not cheap either..Lionel made no effort to help me with some doors from their newer Alleghenies stating the ones they had were being saved for warrantees.  So no love from lionel to me..

Bryan,  

In reading your orginal post on the topic a few months

ago,https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/help-my-allegheny-doors-are-broken

you stated you bought a used Lionel 6-38081 C&O 2-6-6-6 Alleghenny Steam engine. It looks like it was catalogued in 2006, so you are right it is about 12 or so years old.   I would think your issue is more with the person that sold you the engine, especially if this was some type of well know or documented issue.  The engine is long out of warranty, so putting this all on Lionel is not right, since one of the posters noted that they were albe to get replacement parts earlier this year.  For an engine that was 12 years old, that not too bad. 

 I can't tell from your post if this was a just a cosmetic issue or an operational issue that makes it impossible to run.  

Lastly, you have done a great service to identify this issue, since I suspect that there could be a lot of these engines that were run a few times and then put back in the box and not looked at in a decade, so the owners don't know they have this problem, also anyone considering buying one should take notice and make sure that the issue is factored into the final purchase price.

I hope you consider changing the title of your post to reflect the fact that this is not just a Lionel issue,  I had an issues with some MTH trucks a few years ago and never with a Lionel product.  

Brewman1973 posted:

I'd rather be ice fishing posted:

My Allegheny was built in the 1990s and lionel had no replacement parts for me nor did they seem overly concerned with my plight.  I ended up moneying my way out of it by buying a whole tender shell with good doors from a helpful dealers NOS and I got the impression that was the last one on earth.  It was not cheap either..Lionel made no effort to help me with some doors from their newer Alleghenies stating the ones they had were being saved for warrantees.  So no love from lionel to me..

Bryan,  

In reading your orginal post on the topic a few months

ago,https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/topic/help-my-allegheny-doors-are-broken

you stated you bought a used Lionel 6-38081 C&O 2-6-6-6 Alleghenny Steam engine. It looks like it was catalogued in 2006, so you are right it is about 12 or so years old.   I would think your issue is more with the person that sold you the engine, especially if this was some type of well know or documented issue.  The engine is long out of warranty, so putting this all on Lionel is not right, since one of the posters noted that they were albe to get replacement parts earlier this year.  For an engine that was 12 years old, that not too bad. 

 I can't tell from your post if this was a just a cosmetic issue or an operational issue that makes it impossible to run.  

Lastly, you have done a great service to identify this issue, since I suspect that there could be a lot of these engines that were run a few times and then put back in the box and not looked at in a decade, so the owners don't know they have this problem, also anyone considering buying one should take notice and make sure that the issue is factored into the final purchase price.

I hope you consider changing the title of your post to reflect the fact that this is not just a Lionel issue,  I had an issues with some MTH trucks a few years ago and never with a Lionel product.  

I think its odd that people want me to change the title of this thread.  The only thing I can write about is what I know with my first experience with a used lionel product....and what I know is that I bought an old engine that I thought would be solid as far as the body,  ( I had little expectations from the electronics).  I cant blame the seller,  it was untouched in box and doors did not break until I opened them. 

  Despite what the original helpful poster experienced  doors are no longer available from lionel and that is the whole problem to me.  Keep in mind I don't know o-scale and im learning parts are not available like I thought they would be.  Which amazes me considering how much these cost.  How can you say this is not on lionel?  None of my old corgis have fallen apart from zinc rot...im now watching the front steam tubes doing something bad as the paint is cracking up on them.  So if its ok that an expensive engine like this is a allowed to crumble into dust after 12 years count me out of any future lionel engines..if its a fluke well then that's ok. I started this with a legitimate question on whether anyone would likely be making any parts for these in future as I don't know this scale well at all.  I did get some good answers on this forum and I think it brought out a lot of strong feelings from some people and a few dismissive unhelpful comments from others.  I do appreciate the knowledge I have gained from this posting.

I caved to the pressure and customized the title for all you that are dismayed that lionel is being unfairly singled out...

How about posting a picture of the broken parts? You may find a similar item made for another engine at Lionel's or MTH's website. You may be able to get them in brass from Precision Scale or Stevenson Preservation. Or they may be able to be fabricated from brass stock. Lastly they may be able to be 3D printed. 

There are still folks who build engines from scratch. This is not the apocalypse that some make it out to be.

Pete

Zinc rot is not that common.  Does it still occur?  Yes is does.  You happen to get an engine with rot - just bad luck.  If you were to look at all the engines produced in the modern era (and mostly over seas), the majority are free from rot.  When it does happen, it is frustrating.  I've been collecting/operating Lionel trains since the 70s.  In all that time, I had to replace one set of trucks on a freight car due to rot, and now I have a JLC GG-1 with rotted truck frames. 

Will someone be making parts for these engines in future to get them running?  Hard to say.  Today's engines are more detailed and are unique.  In the postwar years, a lot of parts were common across the line and production numbers were higher for each run.  Part dealers can make out better casting replacement parts for postwar because there is a higher demand.  Casting parts for today's more specific and low production run parts may not happen because there is little return on investment.

Technology is our best bet.  With the introduction of 3D printers (metal and plastic) it may become affordable for part dealers to print replacement parts.  This technology is still in its infancy.  But I can see, as this technology develops, a user could scan in a good version of the part and then have the 3D printer print a replacement.  I think this is our best bet.  Then part dealers only have to invest in the tech which works for all parts.

In the meantime, save the engine for a future repair, sell it for parts, or be creative and make up something so it can still run.  Maybe you can find a junker version and salvage the parts.  I would not let one bad engine ruin the hobby.  There are a lot of great engines/cars/accessories out there just waiting for you to enjoy them. 

Just out of curiosity, do any of the other scales HO, S, and N have problems like this? My good friend and neighbor who is moving this week and had a sale on his HO equipment and was at one time into O scale when asked if he ever had any electronic or zinc problems in his 15 years of HO modeling, said he never had any problems as he read and followed on Forums. His layout was in the garage with only a fan to cool him when operating.