Z4000 overload issue

Hi Dale,

I think I've figured out most of the problem.  I have about 20 Lionel 0-72 turnouts, and also had a number of lighted passenger cars standing idle on the tracks.  I unscrewed the bulbs on all the switch lanterns and took the idle cars off the tracks.  Believe it or not all that stuff drew more than three amps!  I don't need the turnout lantern bulbs, since I am running MTH DCS (command).  The handheld tells me which way the turnouts are set.  I'll put all my sidings on block switches, so I'm not lighting any idle cars.  Without all the lights, the engine and four cars made it up a 2 1/2 percent grade just fine.  Problem solved, I think.  I much appreciate your answering, however.

Marc

Marc,

I don't need the turnout lantern bulbs, since I am running MTH DCS (command). 

If you're running DCS you really shouldn't use track power for your switch tracks. Running track powerl through the switch motors cause DCS signal degradation.

This and a whole lot more is all in MTH’s “The DCS O Gauge Companion 2nd Edition", available for purchase as an eBook or a printed book at MTH's web store!

Hi Barry,

I've just received your book in the mail and hadn't read that part yet.  I am not sure how to wire my Lionel switches independently of track power.  After removing switch lantern bulbs and the idle lighted cars, everything ran perfectly at well under 7 amps, so I think I'm good for now.

Happy New Year,

Marc

open up the switch and remove the wire that the switch uses to get power from the track.  then run a new wire to the switch from another transformer or the accessory side of the Z4000.

easy.

Great advice, which I shall follow!

Thank you!

Marc

My layout (300+ feet of track & 14 switches) operates with a single Z4000. All of my locomotives are PS2 & PS3, and most of my rolling stocks are illuminated passenger cars.

Here is my suggestion. Isolate all of your sidings and multiple station tracks with power ON - OFF switches so you can disconnect trains that are not running. I use 99 cent wall switches from Loews and or Home Depot. Arrange the switches in groups of three & four using plastic wall switch plates.

Bye the way, the DCS signal strength on my isolated sidings are 10s.

Thank you, Bobby!  I'm headed to Home Depot now!

All the best,

Marc

We run the switch and lighting power from a different transformer so the Z4000s are just providing power to the track and trains.

On a grade we plan to alternate sections of track power so the load is spread over the two 10-amp throttles to prevent power-outs like the one you describe.

Thanks for replying.  I will be doing most of the things that the other forum members have suggested, including yours.

Marc

dmark:

To add on what Barry said, Try cleaning the Drive wheels and rollers, include inside the pickup rollers with your spray cleaner of choice while spinning the roller.

It's amazing haw fast gunk on the wheels and oxidation erodes signal.

Dirty track will also play havoc with the signal ....

Thanks to Barry, Kerrigan, and Russell for your fast responses.  I will report back my progress with your suggestions, gentlemen!

Marc

Gentlemen,

I am rewiring 18 of my old Lionel O-72 switches so that they do not depend on Z-4000 track power for their operation, per the recommendations from Barry Broskowitz and others of you.  (Barry, I know that you recommend using a separate transformer to power these types of switches to avoid DCS signal degradation, which I am experiencing.)

I have a small Z-500 MTH transformer that will provide more than adequate power for the 18 switch motors, only one of which will obviously be operating at a given point in time.  I have tested one switch with the Z-500 by connecting the hot terminal on the transformer to  the auxiliary fixed voltage plug into side jack of the switch motor housing and connecting the common terminal on the transformer to an outside track rail.  This works just fine.

My question is this:  If I try connecting the same Lionel switch tothe 14volt terminal on the rear of my Z-4000 transformer in the same way (side switch fixed voltage jack to transformer hot and common terminal on the transformer to an outside track rail), I get

an immediate overload indication on the Z-4000.  Why am I getting this overload?

I've already decided to follow Barry's advice on page 71 of his book and use a separate transformer to power the switches to avoid corruption of the DCS signal, but I do not understand why the fixed-voltage terminal on the back of the Z-4000 does not seem to work in this application.  (If I did not have the extra Z-500 transformer, I would have to have had to reluctantly rely on the Z-4000.)

Can someone explain?

Thanks!

Gentlemen:

Can anyone comment on the use of Lionel Remote Control Operating track sections on a DCS layout, with regard to DCS signal degredation?

Thanks,

Since the last post on this subject I switched the power for our Zstuff switch motors over to the 14v output on one of the Z-4000 (was powering it with a Right-of-Way transformer) and they work better being powered off the Z-4000.  I've not noticed any increase in DCS signal problems.

darkmarc,

   It sounds like you have not completely isolated your swithces and they are over loading your Z4K, once you make sure the switches are all isolated your problem will probably disappear.  I would still use a completely different power source, away from your Z4K, to power your DCS AIU controlled switches.  I recommend nothing smaller than an old KW for powering all your swithches you can add or subtract switch operating power simply by using the transformer handles, in fact I use a old ZW most of the time.  Remember the 10 Amp breaker if you use the old transformers for switch power.

PCRR/Dave

Thanks to Kerrigan and Pine Creek Railroad for getting back to me.  I am today in the process of converting all eighteen Lionel O-72 switches to run off of a separate transformer from the Z-4000.  Hopefully this will solve the problem of overloading and DCS signal issues.

Thank you gentlemen!

darkmarc,

    I had 11 sets of old 711/072 Lionel switches on my layout, some back to back to back. Make sure you change the original bulbs to LED's in all your switches, and controllers, even with the isolated power supply, the old girls just draw so much power as they operate that switching to Led's really helps, in fact the 072 switches operate mechanically better with the LED's than with the original bulbs.  Remember you are setting up operation for both the original switch controllers and the DCS AIU for remote control switching from your hand held remote control, the wiring for this is a real pain in the back side, especially if some of your switches are a long distance away on your layout. 

Good luck with your switches, make sure you test everyone individually as you build the layout.

PCRR/Dave  

Hi There Mr. Pine Creek Railroader and Thank You for your time to write further suggestions,

Thanks for your suggestions!  I don't use the O-72 switch controllers, since I'm using the AIU's as the controllers.  However, the bulbs in the 18 switches I have are all old tungsten filament type lamps, which burn hot and are a big power draw.  Some are the post-type bayonet, and some are screw based.  Where did you find L.E.D. lamps to replace the old bulbs?  A trip to my local Wal-Mart did not turn any up.  Batteries Plus charges an arm and a leg for regular flash light bulbs, something like $2.97 each.  I guess I'll look on ebay, unless you know where else I might look.

Thanks again!

Marc

I'm curious about this DCS signal problem powering switch motors off the Z-4000.

Never heard of this nor have we encountered it with 50 switch motors powered off the #1 Z4000 which also powers the engine terminal and main line track, at least not encountered it that we know of ...

Haven't experienced any DCS problems since switching the engine storage/programming track(s) to Fixed 1 on TIU 1 ... no more lost engines.

Hello Again Kerrigan,

Barry Broskowitz speaks strongly to this issue in his DCS book, saying that the DCS signal is compromised when it has to run through the switch motor windings of track powered Lionel switches and others of this type.  If you have switches that receive only momentary track power at the instant of switching, such as Atlas and others, this would not be an issue according to Barry.  I have 18 Lionel O-72 switches on my layout, all track-powered.  I get frequent "check track" and "engine not on track" errors with my MTH 4-6-6-4 Challenger with my switches taking power from the track.  I am in the midst of changing the switches to receive their power from a different transformer than the Z-4000, per Barry's book, in hopes of alleviating this situation.  I'll be posting the results after changing power to these old switches to a stand-alone transformer.

Marc

I had those problems until I switched those tracks to TIU 1, Fixed 1.  The problem didn't disappear until I made the switch.  The problem hasn't come back.  No more lost engines on those tracks where they are stored with power off.

As to running the current through the switch motors and then to the track, with the added feature of screwing up DCS signal ... ?  Never heard of it being done.  So it's not surprising with the bulbs in the switch that would cause a problem .. maybe.

If your power goes from say fixed port 1, THROUGH the switch motors, THEN to the track .. that could cause a problem I imagine.

I don't think the aux 14v port on the Z4000 puts out a DCS signal, and if it did, and it's not used for track power, what's the problem?

I'd like to understand why and how?

It's like those statements that running an Atlas caboose with the blinking light destroys the DCS signal.  I run them all the time, with DCS engines, without a problem I can trace to that aspect.  And I didn't add any chokes/wires/bulbs/LEDs/whatevers to engines or cars.  So it's not always the gospel.

EVERY layout is different and what works on mine might not work on yours the same way even using the same control systems and equipment.

Remember what you read is someone's opinion.  Some more expert than others but an opinion, none the less.

Not trying to raise a stink here; I've just spent a lot of unnecessary time chasing solutions for a problem that didn't exist as defined by experts ... at least the eventual solution wasn't in the book.  Or turned out to be one of those "known bugs" people eventually remember ....

That said, I've also learned more from this forum than from any of the books or articles.

You guys have saved my bacon many times over.

I agree whole-heartedly with you, Kerrigan, that every layout is different.  There are hundreds of factors that can adversely or favorably effect electrical issues.  In my case, I have tried to describe as accurately as possible what I am experiencing so that others may help.  I also agree with you that this forum has been extremely helpful in trouble-shooting problems.  As I said in my last post, I'll report back after I've rewired all my Lionel O-72 switches to be powered by an independent transformer from the power they're now getting from the Z-4000.  By the way, just as you do, I use my TIU on Fixed Voltage inputs and outputs, just as the DCS manual instructs.  I've never used the variable inputs and outputs.  I run my system with track feeds pretty evenly distributed between fixed inputs and outputs 1 and 2 to spread the power load to both sides of the Z-4000.

All the best,

Marc

To these semi-experienced eyes you appear to be doing all the correct moves to resolve your problem.

Be interested in how it turns out!

Kerrigan,

We're all "semi-experienced," to one degree or another.  I'll let you know how things go.

Marc

I think you have to remember to connect the ground of the switch transformer to the ground of the track transformer.

Ed Kaz

Thank you for that comment.  I wondered and have asked on this forum which ground post to connect the ground wire to, and you, sir, have given me that answer!

Marc

darkmarc,

    You can purchase the LED's for your Lionel swithces at Town and Country Hobbies or TrainAidsA, prices vary.  I bought all mine thru Scotts Odds & Ends at really reasonable costs long ago, however they were bought out a few years back and I do not know if the new owners carry the LED for the Lionel swithces, they have discontinued some things.

PCRR/Dave

Thanks for the information on the LED lights.

dm,

   Roger that.

PCRR/Dave