As an "O" gauger, is a NMRA membership worthwhile?

You may want to go to the NMRA's website, NMRA.org, and look at the requirements for the achievement program.  You could be the first person to earn a MMR with a 3 rail layout.  I don't see any reason why a person can't earn the award in the 3-rail hobby.  Building a structure or a layout is the same in any gauge or scale.

Good Luck,   Joe

I'm a Life Member of the NMRA. I fully agree with Elliot's comments.

Thanks Allan. I've been on the "pay as you go" plan. Back when I joined, life was $100. I wish I had had the money then. It took them a while to figure out that was too good of a deal.

P.S. The wife and I are starting to talk about doing Indy in 2016. And it only came up because of this topic.

In five days NMRA's Pacific Northwest Division will take over the Pacific Science Center with a three day display of all scales from TT to G, and even live steamers.  Thousands of families and train enthusiasts will stream through this huge complex.  

All scales reside peacefully and in harmony throughout this region.

The January/February bulletin arrived two days ago.   Note Charlie's opening remarks.

January/February 2015   Portland Daylight Express    Reminder, the Portland Daylight Express Convention will be August 23 - 29, 2015 and is the 80th NMRA National Convention. Whither Portland? There was some confusion after our first NMRA eBulletincontribution as to which Portland is hosting this event. There are 16 Portlands in the United States (and one in Ontario, Canada), two of them the largest city in their state [Maine and Oregon], both with International Airports. The convention is being hosted, for the third time, at the 29th largest city in the United States, PORTLAND, OREGON! Non-Rail & General Interest Tours Let's start off the New Year with a quick listing of the many General Tours being planned. Each will be described in full in the next few months on the website. We'll let you know when tickets are available: Bob's Red Mill Factory tour, store & lunch (self-pay) then a stop in Aurora at the Antique stores. Oregon Wine Tasting. Powell's Books. Distilleries Tour. Oregon Zoo for a train ride. The World Forestry Museum. Spirit Dinner Boat Cruise. Oregon Coast, including stops at Tillamook Cheese Factory, Garabaldi, Cannon Beach and Seaside. Fabric Depot & Pendleton's Shopping Excursion. Gorge Cruise on a Sternwheeler (includes continental breakfast and lunch). Pittock Mansion, Rose Test Garden & Japanese Garden. Art Museum, Courthouse Tour, Walking tour of downtown. McMinnville- Double trouble trip- Part of group will be left at the Evergreen Aviation Museum, other part will be left downtown McMinnville for shopping, wine tasting, Quilt shop. Walking tour of the Bridges of Portland. Last Thursday Street Fair (Galleries, shops open). Evening- Symphony in the park. Saturday Farmers Market & Swan Island Dahlia's Farm. We hope that there are some tours that appeal to everyone. Our tour planners are working with a disabled member so that we can provide meaningful accessibility information about outside sites - layouts and industrial facilities.  Check our website http://www.nmra2015portland.org/ for updates as they are confirmed. And remember, registrations are open! SLC Convention is  nailed down! The Convention Department has now completed negotiations for Salt Lake City July 7, 2019 through July 14, 2019. The Convention will be at the Little America Hotel. 2019 will be the 150th anniversary of the driving of the Golden Spike at Promontory, Utah. The Convention Department is seeking bids for 2020. Information required to submit a bid is available in the Executive Handbook or you may contact Robert Amsler at conv@nmra.org for further information. From Standards and Conformance   New TN-12 Turnout Design submitted for consideration and action by NMRA BOD This Technical Note, TN, has been posted for consideration and action at the next NMRA BOD meeting, February 2015. This TN is a significant review of the current Recommended Practices, RPs, and forms the basis to make major changes to the RP-12.x series listing the dimensions of turnouts. Please submit your questions and suggestions to Didrik Voss, MMR, Manager, S&C Dept. before the BOD meeting. Your suggestions will be considered and may be adopted in future versions of the RPs. Register for the new NMRA website Ben Sevier, NMRA IT Manager Have you registered on the new NMRA Web Site yet? The completely rewritten NMRA web site (www.nmra.org) has "members only" items that are onlyavailable if you have logged into the site with your new member account. While there is much to see on the site for non-members, NMRA members who are logged in have access to NMRA Data Sheets, past editions of the NMRA eBulletin and the NMRA Bulletin, the President's Car column and many other types of items that may be of interest to you. There is also a page that shows you information that is currently held in your NMRA Membership record, with a button to send an email to the staff with any corrections you wish to make. However, you cannot make any changes on the web site; the information is "view only." If you have not yet registered for your NEW account, some things to keep in mind: 1) no other NMRA logins or passwords will work on the new site - meaning, your Company Store account information, the account you may have created several years ago on the oldNMRA web site, or any other NMRA login you may have will not be recognized on the new site. You must create a new account. 2) In order to create your new account, the email address you wish to use for the account must match the one in your membership record in the NRMA database. If this is not so, please contact the NMRA office and update your email address. 3) The registration process will send an email to the address we have in your membership record that provides a one time login. You need to make sure that your email system does not send the password email to your junk folder or trash! Once you have logged into the site with your new account, please change your password to one you can remember - you can always change it later.  One other note: if your membership has expired (you just hadn't gotten around to renewing yet...), you will not be able to create your account. If this is the case, please renew your membership, give the system a couple of days to update the website, then create the account. There are instructions on how to create your account in the Frequently Asked Questions page on the website. You can find it by going to the bottom of the page (blue area) to the far right, under "About." If you have problems or questions creating your account, please send an email to web@nmra.org and one of the web team will assist you.   We are looking for suggestions from members on services or information they would like to see available on the NMRA website, either public or "member's only". What would be interesting to you? What would make the web site more useful to you? ::  Editor: Gerry Leone, MMR, HLM, and Chuck Diljak ::  The NMRA eBulletin is an official bi-monthly production of the National Model Railroad Association, Inc. Publishing Department (Don Phillips, Manager). Its purpose is to keep every NMRA member informed about organization news and events.  If you know of an NMRA member who is not receiving this mailing, please direct them to here to update their email address.  If you no longer wish to receive these mailings, please don't mark them as SPAM.  Instead, click the Safe Unsubscribe link at the bottom of this page. ©2014 National Model Railroad Association, Inc., P.O. Box 1328, Soddy Daisy TN 37384.   A few words from the President Happy New Year As we start this new year, my very best wishes to you all for a wonderful year filled with joy and wonder.  And one thing I wonder about is why the NMRA is considered by some non-members as an "HO organization." We are not, you know, although most of our members happen to model in that scale. But so does the hobby at large, which we reflect.  Let me use one scale as an example: N scale. Our lead Director on the Board, Jack Hamilton, is an avid and excellent N-scale modeler. Yours truly switched to N in 1967 at college in order to build a layout to fit under a dorm bed. I happily created the "Muy Poco lines" and enjoyed it until the narrow gauge bug bit in 1969. Had Tom Knapp been around, Nn3 might have been the answer. Now I model in HOn3 and dabble in On3. The NMRA is scale-neutral. Most of our standards work for any scale and we have N-scale standards as we have specific standards for HO, S, TT, Z and O. Yes, we have Large Scale standards, too. Our conventions feature N on display, in contest entries, modular layouts and the NTS, home layouts on tour and in clinics. The same can be said to a degree about any scale.  Model Railroading is model railroading. There is no "right" scale or gauge. Frankly, I am most impressed by Z as it seems to capture and allow the wide open spaces associated with railroading. Who is not impressed by the heft and detail of O or the charm of G, especially in an appropriate outdoor setting? I could go on but the one constant is that we celebrate and support all scales. So if you hear someone say we are an "HO organization," I think not! Our BOD meets in late February and elections are also coming up. Please vote if you qualify to do so as we have some great candidates. It is your organization regardless of scale.  Happy New Year, Charlie Notice of the BOD Winter Meeting, 2015 The Winter Board of Directors meeting will be held in Scottsdale, AZ. on February 20, 21, and 22 at the Chaparral Suites. The Budget and Operations meeting will begin at 2:00 PM on Friday, February 20, and the Board will be in caucus that evening. Both meetings are only open to invited guests. The regular, open session of the BOD meeting begins at 9:00 AM on Saturday, February 21. Because the agenda is not yet set, there is no way to tell if the meeting will continue on Sunday. All members are invited to attend the open sessions. Watch www.nmra.org for details.   Charlie Getz inducted into NG Hall of Fame   During the recent Narrow Gauge Convention held in Kansas City, our own President Charlie Getz was inducted into the Narrow Gauge Hall of Fame for his column in the Narrow Gauge and Shortline Gazette. Charlie's column is the longest running column in any U.S. model railroad magazine. Congratulations, Charlie. Well earned, and well deserved! Wouldn't insurance for everyone be great? Mike Brestel At-Large World-Wide Director and NMRA Insurance Coordinator Wouldn't it be great if the National NMRA would purchase a liability insurance policy to cover the meetings, conventions, and special events for every Region and Division in the U.S. and Canada? Wouldn't it be great if this insurance were available with a minimum of paperwork and red tape?    Wouldn't it be great if this insurance were also available, at bare-minimum cost, to all the 100% NMRA model railroad clubs in the U.S. and Canada? And to NMRA-affiliated SIGs such as the LDSIG and the OPSIG? And for events that NMRA Regions and Divisions co-sponsor in cooperation with non-NMRA groups such as the National Narrow Gauge Convention and the many RPM meets held across North America? Well, this insurance IS available, for all the uses I've mentioned and more!  Each year, the NMRA purchases a General Liability Insurance Policy that provides up to $1 million per event in protection for all NMRA business activities in the U.S. and Canada. All Region-, Division-, 100% NMRA Club- and NMRA SIG-sponsored events are covered up to the limit of liability provided for in the policy. Our provider this year, and for several years past, is the Peerless Insurance Company, a part of the Liberty Mutual Group. (Unfortunately we have not been able to arrange for similar insurance in other parts of the world, and dues for the Australasian and British Regions is lower in reflection of that fact.) This policy is in place, first, to protect the National NMRA corporation, and also to protect the interests of Regions, Divisions, 100% Clubs, NMRA-related SIGs, and NMRA members where conventions, meetings, and special events warrant coverage. The special events can include meets that a Region or Division co-sponsors along with non-NMRA groups. The policy even provides protection in addition to their homeowner's liability policy for NMRA members who open their private home layouts for NMRA-sponsored tours and operating sessions. It does not replace or duplicate standard homeowner's insurance, rather it offers the NMRA, its officers, tour organizers, and members supplemental lawsuit protection in the event of an injury or accident. "Hmm, I don't see the general public or non-members listed as among those who are protected," you say. "Does this mean we can't let the general public or non-members attend our shows and other events?" No, injuries to the general public and non-members ARE covered, so go ahead and invite the general public to attend, if it's that kind of event! If someone is injured at our event, member or not, and he or she turns to us for reimbursement, THAT's when we're protected. That's what the insurance is for. "Okay," you say, "this IS great. But nothing's ever free, so where's the catch? Who's paying for this?" Well, we all are. The National NMRA purchases this policy each year with funds that come from our general budget, which includes member dues, income from conventions and other activities, investments, and other income. Then each Region and Division has access to the benefits of the policy, usually without any additional expense to them. As you can imagine, the insurance company reasonably wants to know just who and what they're covering. So they ask that each year, each Region and Division provide NMRA HQ with a list of their activities, including locations, for the year. If an event or location changes during the year, it's not a problem - each group is asked to provide the best and most complete information they have available. The insurance company also very reasonably wants NMRA HQ to know who our members and all our officers are, and to be sure that we are not providing protection to groups or individuals who are not members (except for when we are co-sponsoring an event). We pass this information on to the insurance company as asked. Providing our coverage for co-sponsored events is a little more complicated. The insurance company, again very reasonably, wants to be sure that we're not handing out our coverage willy-nilly, so they require that certain conditions be met in order to call an event co-sponsored. These conditions are not at all unreasonable or difficult to meet, and are established to be sure that the NMRA or one of its Regions or Divisions is truly involved in the planning, management, and fortunes of the co-sponsored event. These don't seem like unreasonable demands, do they? This is a great deal, especially when you consider the cost if each Region and Division needed to purchase this insurance on its own.  I remember that back in the days before the NMRA purchased this insurance for us, my Division had to buy its own liability policy at a cost of around $1,000 per year. If you multiply that cost by the roughly 170 Divisions and the 15 Regions operating in the U.S. and Canada, plus our many 100% clubs, plus the cost of insurance for SIG activities and for co-sponsored events, the total bills for all these individual policies could be well over $200,000 per year. Now, that's a lot of money! Yet that same protection is available to all of us for little or no extra cost, just because we're NMRA members. You really can't beat a deal like that! If all this sounds like as good a deal to you as it does to me, and if you want to know more, take a look at the Liability Insurance information available on our website, at http://www.nmra.org/liability-insurance. The first link on that page is a general introduction to the program, with a number of FAQs that we've collected over the years. Then the other links are to memos and forms that cover specific parts of the program.  After you've taken a look at the program and read all the questions and answers, you may have additional questions about how the program would apply to your particular event or situation. If that's the case, we encourage you to call HQ at 423-892-2846, or to email them at nmrahq@aol.com. Or you can email me at mbrestel@zoomtown.com. We'll have the answers you need, or else we'll get them for you. Insurance that's provided for you and your group, just because you're NMRA members, may seem like a deal that's too good to be true. But the value of this liability coverage has proven its worth many times over the years. There's really no reason for anyone in our U.S. and Canada NMRA family to miss out on this wonderful financial protection tool. We look forward to hearing from you! Region and National Conventions  (Only those Region conventions occurring within the next three months are listed)   Aug 23-29: NMRA National Convention, Portland, OR          Master Model Railroaders 548: Dave Jacobs, MCoR 549: Vincent Gallogly, NER    In Future Issues of NMRA Magazine The 2015 Election Ballot and candidate statements RTR Remodeling, Part 2   The Sky's the Limit

I dabble in modern O and tinplate and I have yet to find a national organisation that serves as a umbrella for all of O gauge. Some of this is due , no doubt,to this gauge being so varied and I think the NMRA looks at O gauge with fear and loathing due to a lack of standards in anything and anything goes...I am not interested in an organisation devoted to one manufacturer or one aspect of O. One size does not fit all. O is the family eccentric in model railroading or is it schizophrenic...multiple personalities?

Thats why I prefer it. 

I remember some time ago in MR there was a series of articles written about modelling the NKP down to Nth degree in HO, down to each blade of grass or thereabouts..even the consists and schedules were prototypical. It gave me a headache. Rules, rules , rules..If I wanted to obey such strict inferred conformity and be bored to death I would get out of retirement and go back to the grind. Sort of a herd mentality. 

Variety is the spice of life, or so they say.

Here's my story. I was a member for 2 years. I let my membership lapse for one reason only. Due to work schedules I was not able to attend and participate in local events. Had my schedule been different I would still be a member. 

I like how the NMRA establishes standards for our hobby and everything they represent. I liked their magazine and I hope to one of these days re-join the organization. On the other side what I didn't like about my membership was it seemed they were always sending me letters asking for extra donations. I don't mind once or twice a year but it seemed excessive at the time. The other thing I didn't like was the National Convention (IN MY OPINION) was very expensive (more than triple the price to get in the door) compared to the O Scale National Convention and the TCA convention. Obviously, any trip you go on at these conventions is going to cost extra money and I have no problem with that but at the NMRA convention every seminar also cost extra money. I have taken seminars at York and the O scale National convention and all were free to any paid attendees.

All of the above is my opinion and experience. My advice is, as others have said, join for one year and see for yourself.

I don't know that 1 year is enough to be fair and honest.  I do think that setting unrealistic expectations is often the result.  Being an all volunteer organization you have to be willing to put yourself out there to get the best return.  I was a member for a few years w/o almost any interactions and as was noted earlier, I found that you get what you put into it.

The NMRA is pretty darn tame in the donation request department compared to, for example, the NRA (the gun group). With 5 million paying members, you would think the NRA would be pretty well set financially (and I'm confident they are), but they continually seek out additional funding. Ditto for the ASPCA (the animal protection group), of which I am also a member. It's all part of the way these kinds of organizations operate.

Well, some of the comments about the NMRA above are positive...I must have only

encountered a few of the elitists (such as the one whose face clouded over as

described above).  However, I have noticed, walking through train shows, including

York, the tables often have a mix of scales on them, indicating the seller may have

varied interests.  (I also see tables at York, and, of course, others that have only HO

displayed...haven't NOTICED much N at York)  I was put off from contributing to

some national organizations after a news thing a few years ago about the Red Cross

and funding handled for disasters.  However, with constitutional rights threatened

constantly, by multimillionairs who think they can buy those rights,  and lobbying not cheap, big bucks from contributions are required.  If NMRA conventions are expensive,

that equates to the Narrow Gauge Convention, for which I grit my teeth and pony up,

for I find kits and information there, too, that I can use, or just find interesting.  (and I have wondered why the NGC registration costs much more than York.....that, in itself, smacks of elitism...."let's keep the po' fo'kes out"")  Now, the NGC has a MUCH smaller base than the NMRA, so the NGC may have to cost more, but is an NMRA convention as

large or larger than York, in which case?????

The original version of this was the longest reply EVER...

Funny thing to me is, my first item in my tag line is "LCCA member"

.

At least NMRA and TCA don't try to sell me wine like the NRA does.  Wine & guns, what could possibly go wrong?

Back in the 1980's when I flew almost every day, the airline clubs had a similar pay-as-you-go annual rate of $75/yr or $500 lifetime --so you could escape the bedlam of airport crowds and craziness.  But $500 seemed so much then.  I hardly fly anymore these days (and I don't miss it one iota), but I think the annual rate is now pretty close to that!    So $500 in the 1980's for lifetime membership was a real bargain.

David

If you are into 3-rail trains, you should definitely avoid the NMRA.  They promote standards which allow all manufacturer trains and rolling stock to work together seamlesslessly.  If you join up with them, you will potentially lose your undying love for Lionel and hate for MTH (or maybe you are in the pro-MTH anti-Lionel camp).  You might even start judging train manufacturers on their product, rather than focusing on orange boxes or purple boxes.

So please don't support the NMRA, lest someday a Lionel Legacy locomotive might run together with an MTH Premier in a standardized control system!  (In the words of Dr. Venkman: "Human sacrifice! Dogs and cats, living together! Mass hysteria!")

Anyone going to the convention in Portland this year?

I don't live that far away but can't take much time off this year, will probably go down for the national train show at least...

Sure!

Oh wait, you said NMRA didn't you? Never saw much need to join that one. Even when I was into HO.

Tried it for a year or two back in the 70's...couldn't extract any tangible benefit from the entry fees. 

OTOH, I applaud their influence on defining and peddling various standards that have kept the largely 2-rail end of the hobby cohesive and compatible.  If I thought that they'd have the inclination...much less the chutzpah!...to take on the orange/blue and purple/yellow camps of the O3R segment to at least....at the VERY least...establish a uniform operating system like DCC, I'd reconsider throwing a few shekels their way. 

Frankly, I don't think they (NMRA) take the O3R segment of the hobby very seriously, and it shows in so many ways discussed in the previous thread responses.

That said, perhaps the biggest reason I find the NMRA to be increasingly irrelevant is the ubiquitous internet.  What was missing and useful for information back when the NMRA was nascent is now abundantly available through the internet, forums like this wonderful one, various and sundry other blogs and websites.  I know several model railroading friends...all part of the HO/N crowd, of course...who openly reflect this viewpoint...especially when national or divisional convention time rolls around and the 'Are you going?' question is bandied about.

Clinics?  Heck, it takes about 5 minutes of key-clicking or less to find a reasonably good DIY on-line tutorial.  And it's always a 'front-row seat' compared with a popular national convention clinic with 50-100 people jammed into a room! 

Of course, it could be argued that if we (the O3R legion) don't enlist the awesome power and standards dominion () of the NMRA to become more influential in our segment...and among the manufacturers of the same...(and lavishly throw money their way in support, BTW!)...then why would we expect value/satisfaction returned?  Good point.

But, it's all just so much a matter of TEHO, I suppose.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch...

KD

Unless you're 2RS, NMRA is not worth it IMHO.  

I joined for a year or 2 but didn't find it useful.  I was after finding out more about building scenery and more scale modeling/weathering but I found I got more out of Model Railroader Magazine in regards to modeling and weathering freight cars/structures etc.  It is really the only magazine I subscribe too now.  I would get the digital versions of our O scale magazines but I think the subscription rate is still too high.  Mailers always complain the price of postage and the cost to print is the most expensive part of mailing magazines yet I don't see that reflected in the price of digital versions.  Short answer I think you get more out of magazine subscriptions, as a 3 railer than joining the NMRA. 

I have been a member for decades. 

The main reason: fellowship. 

Building layouts is fun but sharing it with others is very satisfying and rewarding.

We have monthly meetings and the location changes every month.  There's 40-60 people in attendance, we have a quick meeting, then have a person present 'how tos' and then a couple railroaders have their layouts open for us to visit after the meeting.  I find I can always learn something by seeing other layouts, no matter what scale.

It's nice to get out of the basement and share your ideas and common interests with other railroaders.

There's a lot of 'empty nesters' out there and to have fellowship with others with the same interest is good for your heart, mind and soul.

The monthly magazine is excellent with topics and how to's that are not usually covered in the main commercial magazines.

No matter what scale one is in, it's nice to get 'hands on' tutorial and actually seeing it in 3 dimension on a subject that you want to learn about and interface with a knowledgeable person. 

I don't know about you, but, being retired, it's nice to get out of the house at least once a month and meet my comrades, person to person.

I don't think the NMRA is worth the money for most O scalers. it's more geared toward the smaller scales.

IMO todays NRA is an organization devoted to lining gun manufacturer's pockets and funding moronic right wing causes and politicians, which is a far cry from the NRA in years past, so why are they relevant to a discussion taking place on a model train forum?

Jeff C

You have read many opintions here. Sit back and see what you would like from a/the club and consider if you would fit in anyone of them. Only you will know what you want from a club.

I believe this hits the nail on the head. The NMRA caters to the genuine rivet counters that build true scale detailed HO, N and ON3 models. Some very fine model railroad artists are members. Look in Model Railroader magazine and Railroad Model Craftsman. That will give you an idea of what to expect. The NMRA crowd is totally different than what we have here on this forum and I would say its mostly an HO club. 

That's a not-unreasonable observation and also does point out that things have changed - those "good" on-line tutorials have some real value.

OTOH, I do a hands-on resin casting clinic where you get to make a mold of your object and then on the 2nd day get to pour resin into your own mold.  The participants tell me that they've read the articles and watched the videos, but getting & doing it in front of you hands-on makes all the difference.  My clinics are generally limited to 15-20 people as well. 

I've attended three national conventions since 2010, Milwaukee, Battle Creek, and Cleveland.  At Battle Creek, I did not get to participate in convention activities since I only had time allocated for setup and operation of the IHMD three rail layout, which we also displayed in Cleveland.  To say that the NMRA does not support three rail is ludicrous, the NMRA was always supportive and complimentary of our group when we displayed, and provided premium display space for about 19 years to the IHMD at Trainfest in Milwaukee (WISE Division).  I participated with the group for 11 of those years.     

In the two national conventions that I did participate in activities, the conventions were well worth the money, the clinics were awesome, and the layouts that I operated on as part of the Operations Special Interest Group were outstanding.  I can't thank those people who opened up their layouts for the Op Sig group enough for the wonderful experience that I had at every layout.  

This year at Cleveland, the NMRA offered "make and take" clinics.  I spent a morning at one making coil steel loads, something I need several gondola loads of.  Well worth the time and money.  

This April, my HO layout will be on tour for the Dupage Division April meet, something that I have not done before, and I am looking forward to.  It will be nice to meet other modelers in the area that I probably have not run across before since  I have not been active in my local division up to this point. 

Martin pointed out in another post that the NMRA is a volunteer organization.  As such, you get as much out of the organization as you put into it.

So, if you like to model, the NMRA is a worthwhile organization in my opinion.  If you like to collect, there are other organizations better suited to that activity.  To each their own, there are very broad interests on this forum.

Regards,

Jerry Zeman

IMO, NO. Save your money. Trust me I know

Isn't the NMRA more about SCALE model railroading? Perhaps different responses would be found if this were asked on one of the SCALE forums, not the O-27 one!  LOL

I've been in the NMRA since around 1973.  I've yet to face the Spanish Inquisition because of my interests in G, O and S.

Rusty

After reading this thread there are almost an equal number of yeas and nays,so it seems.  I was a member for a couple of years and attended their conferences here in Pittsburgh.  Neal Schorr was key to having our 3 rail scale included.  The meetings and the how to clinics were interesting and helpful.  There were a number of high profile 3 railers from this forum that ran clinics and were available for chat.  It was worthwhile.

My work schedule took me away from membership--I would rejoin.

Norm

Let's agree that NMRA devotees are far more interested in prototypical accuracy in locomotives and rolling stock than the typical LIONEL/MTH customer.  But, that is not to say that there are not a significant number of LINEL/MTH customers who are interested in protypical accuracy because there are.  And let's agree that the "scale" models produced in 3-rail by LIONEL and MTH are now more accurate representations of the prototype than they were years ago.

As for a "Scale" guy being criticized as a "rivet counter," I haven't seen it and I could well have regarding the MTH manufactured MONON "Thoroughbred" F3 AA units Mr. Muffin had produced and which were very popular here on the "Hi-Rail" forum.  While I wouldn't call myself a "Scale" guy, I do know more than a little about F-3's; and, it turns out the MONON's F3A units were early F3's and should have had a third porthole on each side.  I pointed this out in a MONON thread along with what seemed to be, based on my modest research, an easily avoided numbering mistake.  I expressed the opinion that the porthole error was due to the unacceptable cost of MTH modifying its F3 mold to add the third porthole. 

Mr. Muffin, who had the set produced by MTH, replied several days after my post that they had researched the engine numbering extensively and had drawing and other evidence that they had gotten it right.  He did confirm that the absence of the third porthole was, in fact, a cost issue.

No one in that thread accused me of being a "rivet counter."  In fact, not a single reply, other than Mr. Muffin's thoughtful reply, even referred to my observations.

Like Norm, I read this thread from beginning to this point and would suggest that folks dial back the hostility and sarcasm, and tendencies to over-generalize about folks who don't share their point of view.

If the NMRA was involved in 3 rail O scale there would be a standardized digital control system imposed on us. Why would we want that?