Details on New Lionel SD40's

>>Does any manufacturer even make a 6-axle locomotive that will navigate an O-36 curve? If they did I'm sure it would look awful funny.

There are probably more 3-rail scale enthusiasts than you give credit for.<<

Joe

>>>If most of the Legacy engines are Built To Order, then maybe Lionel should offer both styles, pivoting fixed pilots and pivoting pilots similar to the ones on the American Flyer engines to navigate tight curves and look more realistic.  If you polled fellow hobbyists they would prefer 036 curve minimum requirement and you could sell more of these engines.<<

Speaking as one who grew up with 0-31 curves and has only known engines with swinging pilots. (All but two of my diesels are swingers).  Its fixed pilot engines that appear unnatural or out of place around curves on my layout. 

On my layout steam power dominates the two outside 0-72 loops and diesels work the tighter radius inside loops.  My inner loops are 0-31 and 0-42 curves where the ES44's or SD40's with self centering or fixed pilots can't go. 

Bottom line, its more Hi-rail then I can use.   Like 21" passenger cars, I really have no use for the updated feature.

Joe

Mike,

  First off thank you for the clarification and for responding to the requests of the 3-rail scale enthusiast like myself. 

I think you will have a lot of success with this engine and future engines like it because there is a large number (and growing) of 3-rail scale operators. 

I was going to ask Lionel if they could put scale coupler mounts on these new engines, then I read your post...yeah!  Awesome!  Also, I was going to put a screw in the pilot to keep it in place, but it would be great if you made that easy.  

Not to be greedy but I do have some extra requests.  Most people may not care about these but they will not impact the min O-54 operators, and it will make it better for the scale operator. 

- The scale coupler mount is great, but scale couplers look funny if the opening is too large around the coupler.  Can you minimize the opening?

- Can you also minimize the gap between the wheels and the trucks?  This is so the trucks don't stick out too far.  Since you have min O-54 you don't need as much play in the wheels.  Or at least can it be adjustable?  When I move them in I drill a slot so they can slide in then tighten the screw. 

- Can you reduce the gauge or size of the handrails?  Your handrails are thicker and probably for good reason to be more rugged.  That's understandable, but MTH railings are smaller and true to scale (noticeable in photos) and I have not had any issues with them bending or breaking.  Same is true for the stanchions and coupler bar.

- Full length handrails are a big factor in fooling the brain to think the engines are real, especially in photos.  I am happy if you do nothing about this because I can add them myself, and will even do a video on how to do this.  The hardest part for someone to do this is drilling the holes to mount the end of the handrail onto the steps.  It requires a small drill bit, a good drill and some skill to drill into the narrow side of the pilot.  I'm just wondering if there is some way to make it easier.  Pre-drill holes?  and provide replacement handrails?  Just a thought.

- Can you use realistic MU hoses?  I'm sure you will since, some of your recent engines like your GP-35 have scale size (and shaped) hoses .  Others like the DD35 are too big and are more like fire hoses. 

- One more thing.  Can you minimize the gap between the bottom of the pilot and the rails.  Your SD40-2 looks like its expecting a flood.  You know like high water pants.  Sorry I couldn't resist, just trying to be funny. 

I'm looking forward to these engines and will be ordering several. 

Thank you,

Rich

www.toytrainsontracks.com

I would like to 2nd all of Rich's request  All those little details would make them look even that much better.

Whoa, that's an awesome list of requests, Rich!  I wholeheartedly 2nd all those features for all future diesel offerings.

Thanks, I must have overlooked that.  

It is out there including everything in between at a lower price.

Its called MTH. ...command or conventional, two rail, three rail or Hi-rail, fixed pilots and swingers included... choose scale wheels or hirail wheels. Toy track, scale track or 2 rail scale track.. All of it supported with the widest product selection for each type on the market.  

Expand your horizon and find it...

Joe

Well we sure as heck don't have unlimited room, and I wish we did. We made do with what we do have. The HO guys are no different other than the fact the majority of their stuff is to scale and finely detailed. Those guys with small layouts and 15" radius can't run 6 axle diesels as they need 18" and sometimes 22" for minimums.

There are tons of locomotives out there that fit into what you're looking for. You can't really expect to have all that detail and features of a scale model and run it on a toy train curve can you? 

>>>I have a Lionel SD40-2 which has a minimum O-31 radius.  It is pretty much the same as this SD40 except for the fine details and the pivoting pilot.  You can't have pivoting pilot and min O-36 so that means you are just missing out on the road specific details.  Otherwise that engine runs and sounds great. <<

Yes, there are 6 wheel trucks that will navigate smaller curves, but its done with blinding a set of the wheels so that only 4 are flanged and are in contact with the rail.  Something, that in many occasions gives a very toyish look, like with mini wheels on the front set of some MTH 6 wheel trucks.

Anyone know if the new SD40 with the O-54 diameter will have any blinded wheels?  Hopping all 6 wheels are flanged.

Jim

Joe,

  These are good points and those are really nice engines.  I agree minute details are hard to spot when moving, but I don't consider fixed pilot (with no gap), scale coupler and full length handrails minute.  They are huge differences and are very obvious when the engine is moving.  Although I appreciate it, I'm not too concerned about which type of "battery box cover" or "grab irons" are used.

  I think the road specific details are good but not the main selling point for me.  The main selling point for me is smooth slow speed operation, easy setup and reliable control, great sounds which Lionel Legacy engines already have and now the ability to have a fixed pilot with scale coupler.  The show stopper for me has always been the big coupler, the gap in the pilot and short handrails.  What's the point in having super accurate details you can barely notice when the most prominent realistic features are not present.  Well it looks like that has changed and Lionel has made some nice improvements to their engines.  Thank you Lionel.

Rich

The Fort Worth and Western RR just purchased a few old SD-40's from Union Pacific and repainted them in its colors.

 Fort Worth and Western SD40's would be fantastic!

I want to see the blue they use on the MoPac SD40's. The blue they used on the GP35's was too light for Jenks blue.

Two more comments:  

JC642, you are running a consist headed by three locos totaling 45" long.  How long is the trailing train?  How long is your layout??  If it's long enough for a triple-headed freight, my guess is that a "waterwings" or around-the-walls configuration will almost certainly let you fit O54 curves.

jd-train, I respectfully disagree.  IMO a blind middle axle does not create a toyish look.  Three-rail flanges are too large to be prototypical, so omitting the middle one is no big deal.  For example, compare the Atlas USRA 0-6-0 (with all wheels flanged), to the MTH version of the same loco.  To my eyes, the MTH with its blind center driver looks better than the Atlas with three large flanges.  On a diesel, the wheels and flanges are partly concealed by the truck sides, and even less noticeable.  Now depending on where the pivot point is for the truck, blind end axles (as on the postwar FM and some MTH diesels) does create a toyish look, especially on sharp curves.  

At any rate, based on the 3-D engineering illustrations Mike Reagan shared in the first post of this thread, it looks like all wheels on Lionel's SD-40 will be flanged.  So you got your wish!

Here is a shot for comparison.  On the left is the Lionel SD40-2, in the middle is the Lionel GP-35, and on the right is the MTH fixed pilot (scale wheels version) of the SD45.

Notice how thick the SD40-2 handrails are compared to the newer Lionel GP-35.  It looks like Lionel has made some nice improvements to the pilot on this GP-35 like thinner handrails, better MU hoses, less gap, slightly smaller coupler opening, lower pilot, and the coupler bar is not molded in and has the correct thickness.  Hopefully Lionel can make the new SD40 even better than the GP-35 with smaller coupler opening and pivoting pilot to remove the gap.  I think the handrail thickness, coupler bar and MU hoses are really good on the GP-35 and should be used on the new SD40 as well.  What do you guys think?  

Also, it looks like the GP-35 in general has more details than the SD40-2.  I would think the coupler opening can be much smaller on the new SD40 with the pivoting pilot.  I just wish they could do full length handrails like the SD45 on the right.  Aren't the handrails one of the most obvious and noticeable features for making a model look realistic?

B.T.W the Lionel green looks more accurate.

Rich

www.toytrainsontracks.com

>>Here is a shot for comparison.  On the left is the Lionel SD40-2, in the middle is the Lionel GP-35, and on the right is the MTH fixed pilot (scale wheels version) of the SD45.<<

The only thing I see worth noting is the first two will navigate every type radius curved track while the third is hamstrung on O-72 or larger...

Exactly the point I tried to comunicate earlier in this thread.

Besides additional cost, there is a price to pay for some prototypical detail.

A wise decision by MTH to offer both swinging and fixed pilots of every diesel engine.

Cost aside, for me the new Chessie SD-40 would have been a nice addition, but access to all areas of my layout is priority one.  It far outweighs any benifit from a self centering pilot and the limitations it brings with it.

Joe

I was thinking of ordering a BN SD40 but I can't decide between this and the NS ES44ac 

I know this is going to sound really weird but ...

I almost never look at the catalog.

The way I find out about items to buy is I am going over either the Buy/Sell board or eBay and come across something, then I go back to lionel.com or MTH's site and go over it. And usually the MTH picture is so disgustingly small I can't see anything. And for lionel.com, I can't see does it have blind inners, does it have 2 or 4 rollers, so I will go back to the auction or listing and see if the owner happened to post a pic of the under carriage.

So ... when M. Reagan said something about roadnames, I was like, what road names, I just see pics of a white engine. Then it occurred to me, he must mean I have to go find that catalog thingy I almost never look at.

There is the problem. MTH does not offer every diesel with fixed pilots and sometimes they cancel fixed pilot versions due to lack of pre-orders. So while it is a great idea, the actual implementation of that idea is far from something you can rely on to build a railroad. They have cancelled 4 models on me over the years.

My hope is that Lionel continues on this path and ultimately offers 2 rail capability.

The original Lionel SD40 was not to scale and made in some railroad names and schemes.

The Atlas SD40 was made in a limited supply.

I must order and get both of the Grand Trunk Western SD40 diesel locomotives, since the GTW had very few locomotive types on their roster.

Andrew

This photo shows that the Norfolk Southern has restored a SOUTHERN Railway SD40 with a high front hood to its original appearance.

Perhaps this will be in the next run of O Scale SD40 diesel-electric locomotives.

Took the plunge! I ordered the BN 6320, sorry ES44 maybe another year. This will make a great 20th birthday present, whenever it arrives .