Die-Cast ES44AC Antenna Issues - Solved

The wire is actually soldered to the board .. It has a long metal post it's usually soldered to that and has black shrink tube over it..

Understand....no longer trying to remove wire/connector from board.  

Were you testing continuity on the antennae with the leads connected to the board? Under no circumstances should you ever test continuity with digital circuits connected you will fry your boards

Good point Matt.  I have not checked continuity while connected to the board.  With the cab removed I checked each individual antenna grey lead to the cab.  Then I checked across both individual grey antenna wires for continuity.  Both readings were infinite ohms.  I have not put a meter on the common grey wire from the board.

The diecast es44s also do wired stuff with the shell on if there's wires pinched. (Sound turns on no responce at all) . There's a lot of wires right around the bottom of the frame that easily get caught between the shell and the frame..Unlike other brands it won't smoke the boards if this happens .

Huh?  I test MTH and Lionel boards all the time with a VM.  You just don't apply power to components while connected.  How else do you trouble shoot the board?  G

First, I am not sure how the antennas are connected via a "board" on this model, but you should test continuity from the antenna outside the shell through the gray wire, are they both 0 ohms (a short)?

 

You than test antenna to shell, as you did for infinite ohms (an open).  You also need to do this when the shell is on.  Just incase a wire or wire bundle shifts and that is when the antenna gets shorted to chassis.

 

Check the wire going to the RCDR.  This model uses a less common Command Receiver but it is based on the R4LC type.  Sometimes the radio sensitivity is not as good or goes bad.

 

So if the antenna and wiring, including the connector pin that goes to the RCDR is all good, the next thing to check is the RCDR.  You need one to swap in.

 

If you place your hand over this engine when the shell is on, does it respond better?  That usually means a sensitivity issue, as a grounded antenna doesn't work at all.   G

GGG, you test continuity on circuit boards? Testing continuity you VM could apply up to 9 volts through the circuit.

I do, but the VM doesn't apply that and has circuitry to limit current.  I use the ohm and diode test mode all the time.  Even measure the processors. 

 

It is the only way to isolate shorted components that don't show the visible signs.  G

My meter outputs 1.5V for diode, 2.4-3V for resistance and unspecified for continuity. One could make the assumption that resistance and continuity would be the same but i don't.

The voltage is there, but it's current limited to a very low value. 

 

In diode test, I just put a 10K resistor across the connection, open circuit it measured 1.49 VDC, with 10k of resistance, it went ro 1.17 VDC. That's about 30 micro-amps of current flowing through the circuit with the diode measurement.  With a direct short across the leads for the diode measurement, I get 550 micro-amps of current flowing.  Neither is enough to damage anything but some VERY touchy circuitry.

 

A direct short on the continuity beeper setting gave me 180 micro-amps of current, again pretty minimal.

 

 

 

 

 

If I had 2 meters I'd test. I'm in agreement then. I've always erred on the side of caution when it came to continuity testing on circuit boards

Is this a new problem? or has the engine always had this problem. If the handrails are the antenna, it sounds to me like they may be contacting the metal chassis or metal shell. It only takes one to touch.. Try your continuity test again at the workbench. Chassis or shell with one lead. handrail to the other.   No continuity hopefully.

Well, you can't go wrong being cautious, that's for sure.

 

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and insights so far.  I checked continuity of each antenna and found something interesting.  The conductor side from the grey wire the the end (probing axially right onto the very end of the handrail) measured ~ 0.7 ohms. The engineer side measures 0.5 ohms end to end.  However, when I measure to the connection ring it is open.  It appears as if I do not have a good connection/bond between the stanchion and the handrail itself (see photo).  Of the 3 stanchions, the middle one appears to be conductive while the other two are insulated.  I have twisted the stanchion around the rail a bit trying to improve conduction but not changing.  The handrail is of course painted grey.

 

So to summarize, it seems as if I may be running with only 1 antenna when the cab is installed.   Any suggestions on improving the connection or should I buy a new one?

 

 

 

At work, an employee who has since passed away, referred to continuity checking as the "9V hypot", after some engineer claimed his *special* product only needed that and not a high voltage check.

Glad you could get through the which meter is better hijack.

 

The stanchions should be isolated from the handrail.  The stanchions are in contact with the shell which is diecast and grounded to outside AC.

 

If one of the handrails is grounding out or conducting to the shell and ultimately outside rail, the antenna signal is defeated.

 

With the handrails installed, but not connected to the lead going to the board (cover them with a wire nut or tape.  Place the engine on the track with shell on.

 

Touch one probe to the hand rail and one to the shell. If you have conductivity that is a bad antenna and needs to be isolated.  DO the same with the other.  You can than probe from antenna to outside rail of the track.  If both read open, then they are good antennas.

 

So, from what I think you are saying, sounds like a bad stanchion is grounding out your antenna system.  Not sure how Lionel isolated that one, is there a rubber insulator between handrail and stanchion?   G

I am sorry you are having  trouble with your DieCast Locomotive. I have each one made and so far, not one problem. I would take this engine to your local Lionel authorized repair station. Good Luck.

George is onto the issue now, the antennas should NOT be connected to the shell in any way.  If you're reading a connection to the shell, you have found your problem.  The stanchions are supposed to be plastic and not conductive.

There is  plastic sleeves on that rail to stop it from grounding out . It's a real bear to remove the rail. I have done it on a ge evo that had all the railings broken on it. You should just remove the side cover that covers those 3 screws the center one is the one that has the antenna loop screwed to it .

That makes sense, but the issue seems certain to be the railing being grounded.

 

,

 I don't much about electronics but the meter I use has a setting in the OHM section  that "beeps" continuously when the red and black leads are touching each other indicating continuity. , This setting is really useful . If it beeps there's continuity, if not the circuit is open...

 

One more though... Is there a good TMCC signal on the layout

The antenna wire is attached via a ring lug to the center stanchion in the Lionel part photo above.  There is an isolator (plastic busing) to prevent the attaching screw from grounding things out.  There is a similar brass conducting ring at the bottom portion of middle stanchion where the ring lug make contact.   I will take photos and post tonight.

The center stanchion must have a conductor running up through it to make contact with the handrail or it may actually be completely conductive because the base sits in plastic isolator from the cab.  The center stanchion is a tight fit on the handrail and hard to twist.  Looking for a way to improve the conduction between the stanchion and handrail.  If not, the new antenna is $17 plus shipping.

When I checked this rail for conductivity it was free floating/ungrounded.  So I really don’t think grounding is the issue.  It’s more of a case of only 1 antenna.

All my other engines operate well and have good reception.  It’s just this one with the diecast shell.

Ok, Good now I understand.  Does the handrail with good conductivity on the stanchion look like just a crimp fit, or is there a small solder joint?

 

I would make sure no corrosion between handrail and stanchion, and crimp tight.

 

If you measured through the gray wire to the handrail it may be the wire broke under wire insulation at the ring crimp.  G

Upon closer inspection the center stanchion is brass, painted grey.  I have been twisting the stanchion around the handrail hoping to make a better connection but no luck.  

 

The engineer side antenna is connected: wire - ring lug - stanchion - handrail.  The fit is somewhat of a friction fit.  

 

The conductor side antenna is connected: wire - handrail (soldered, hidden inside cab) 

 

I think it's time to buy a new antenna instead of fighting this one any longer.

 

The new antenna did the trick.  Thanks for everyone's support and suggestions.  

I called victory way too soon. The locomotive runs fine in some areas of the layout but gets lost in others. This my only locomotive that does this but also my only die-cast. After it stalls if I put my free hand around or above the locomotive it responds to commands.  This is what GGG asked about earlier with his question on sensitivity. 

Should I order a new RCDR board or is there another level of troubleshooting and checks I can do first?

I thought you had it made! darn.   This is only a suggestion and probably out of the question and a lot of work.  Could you insulate the cab from the chassis with electrical tape and plastic screws. The whole shell  becomes the antenna. Attach the antenna wire to the shell.

 

Also what  about making an antenna wire  and  installing it underneath the engine. In this case you would need  insulated wire. I'm not sure what the ideal length would be.

 

 

I would say yes if the antenna is not grounded to the shell.  G

Before I slap down $40 for the new RCDR board, any reason not to cut back on the antenna wire and re-solder to the post?  The photo does not show it but the the wire is soldered and shrink tubed to the lower right hand post.

 

No reason at all might as well try that .. I also would look at the front and rear coupler wires are not cut or pinched by the trucks .. Cause when legacy engines get a short they do some wierd things even loose signal .

Hi Steims, I know you are not going to like this comment, however, with an engine this nice, I would get an RA from Lionel and would return it for professional repair. The DieCast locomotives are really nice and should not cause frustration when in operation.

My other option would be to take the engine to a local authorized service station. This is exactly what I would do. Good Luck. Happy Railroading. 

It's been a busy Spring for me so today I finally got back down to the train room.  I installed my new RCDR board and that took care of the whole reception issue.  Of course I soldered the antenna lead to the antenna post on the board then shrink tubed it.  All is working well.  

 

Thanks everyone for all the advice and suggestions.  

Another great example of why some of us trouble shoot and learn to fix our own engines. No shipping back and forth, and it gets done on your own schedule... not someone else's. Great job!