Lionel Lionchief Albert Hall Starter Set HELP

If you have a model transformer that can provide 16-18 VDC to the track or 18VAC you will be good to go. I would select the DC transformer if you can.  For example a HO transformer providing 16VDC would work fine.  You may have that or it would be easily available at a hobby shop.  G

GGG posted:

If you have a model transformer that can provide 16-18 VDC to the track or 18VAC you will be good to go. I would select the DC transformer if you can.  For example a HO transformer providing 16VDC would work fine.  You may have that or it would be easily available at a hobby shop.  G

Hi G.

Thanks for the reply.

I was told that running at (UK) 50Hz instead of 60Hz would affect the loco.  ie:- sounds, smoke operation etc?

I was also told that i needed to buy a Sinewave inverter to change the frequency accordingly??

All new to me & really dont want to damage the set by getting it wrong

Can you shed any light on this.

Man Many Thanks.

Ian.

Hello Ian, and welcome aboard.  

While it is true that you MAY need the full step down and 60Hz sine wave converter setup if you want to expand into higher end products, or Non-Lionchief engines, you should be fine with a simple step-down to 110/120 with the LionChief set.  

LionChief and LionChief Plus engines will run on ac or DC power.  The small wall-pack power supply that comes with the set is a DC supply, and I believe it will not care if the input is 50Hz or 60Hz.  You could use any power supply that provides 16-18 volts DC for LionChief/+.  

On the AC side, I am unsure if LionChief will run correctly on a 50Hz supply.  I want to think it would not care, as it does not depend on a track signal, but I do not have the means to test this.  With the newer Lionel Legacy engines I believe the problem has been being worked on and some, if not all Legacy engines can be run on 50HZ, but I'm not familiar enough with the issue to know for certain.  

While this thread is discussing a different issue there is some good information from folks running on 50Hz power.  It might be worth your time to send some of  the other UK folks a message and see if they can help you out further, if needed.  

JGL

Hi John

Thank you very much for your advice.  I have now found a UK member as you advised & emailed him for any help & info he can hopefully offer.

Again, thank you very much for your time & advice.

Kindest Regards

Ian.

DC is like a battery so it doesn't matter what type of input.  Which is why I recommended that.  A UK HO DC transformer will give an output that LC can use.   G

The loco runs on DC, so any DC supply you can find that supplies from around 12V to 18V at a couple of amps will do the trick just fine.

Hi all,

here my experiences:

I operate now five Lionchief engines on my layout with AC 50Hz, until now I could not identify any problem that might be caused by the frequency of 50 Hz.

With one LC engine I made a short trial on a DCC fed layout; engine worked flawless: Occasionally I'll extend these tests.

Concerning Legacy equipped engines, engines work without problems in 50Hz environment. Early Legacy engines had a smoke trigger not appropriate for 50Hz. There is a replacement around for operation in 50Hz environment.

TMCC engines with a FM3-motor driver don´t work proper in 50 HZ environment. Early produced TMCC crane cars don't work in 50Hz, but there is available a  dedicated chip replacement to enable 50Hz operation(I installed the replacement already in 2008).

Conventional Trainsound is not appropriate for 50Hz. To my knowledge there is no replacement around. For TMCC eqipped Trainsound you can replace the receiver by an ERR product. That helps to operate in 50Hz Environment, but only under TMCC/Legacy conditions.

Regards

Albrecht

Germany

Why would the ERR new RS Commander have any issue with 50HZ in conventional mode?  The first thing on the board is a bridge rectifier.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Why would the ERR new RS Commander have any issue with 50HZ in conventional mode?  The first thing on the board is a bridge rectifier.

John, I think Albrecht has got a little lost in translation. He is talking about replacing Trainsounds the sound board that Lionel used in the older starter set engines. This board was a PITA. And malfunctions on 50Hz random whistle and bell sounds.

Our eldest sons first set had this and the original non 50Hz CW-80 that also malfunctioned with similar symptoms. So we had the perfect storm, sounds went crazy. 

The only way to fix Trainsounds that I know of is to replace with ERR RS board which I think is what Albrecht is getting at. Well there is one other way which is run the loco on 60Hz via a inverter which is what I did for my eldest sons first set. 

A chap I know has done this conversion to the Polar Express Trainsounds Tender and put in a ERR RS board and it worked fine on 50Hz conventionally.

Never had any trouble with Railsounds on 50Hz. I heard of one case in the UK club that mentioned a problem with a TMCC loco with Railsounds 4 (I think) that had issues. But not sure of the details.

Nick

I just didn't understand the comment about 50hz conventional being an issue, I can't imagine why it would be with the ERR product. 

It's probably more likely with the RS4 products, but I don't have 50hz to test them.

Yes I agree it's a bit strange. Jon Z is up to speed with the history of Lionel 50Hz issues.

I am very sure he would not want a repeat on his watch!

Maybe Albrecht will elaborate.

Nick

Hi Ian, living in Australia, I'm quite experienced with the 50-60hz issues. Firstly, with your Albert Hall Set, you can use the plug pack that came with the set, you will just need an international plug adaptor. Those little wall plugs work betweem 100-250volts. There is no issue with 50 hz with modern (recent) Lionel equipment. There used to be a problem with old CW80 transformers where often the horn would continually sound. Lionel addressed that problem a couple of years ago. There is also a problem with old TMCC products prior to about 2005? Not sure of the date, certainly no problem with Legacy. The only other problem is with "Trainsounds" , such as the Trainsounds  tender for the Polar Express. There are no problems with any Railsounds. There is also no problem with any MTH products.

Hi all,

I did not expect this resonance, but I'll try to explain and to be more precise

. Some statements at first:- I am not an electronic specialist; -results came from trial and error tests; I have a testbed for 60Hz Operation(230V 50Hz ->12V DC ->115V 60Hz)

I give you examples:

-conventional Trainsounds:Lionel 4-4-0 General-type Steam Locomotive ''Western & Atlantic from 2008: when operated with 60Hz you have steamsound and whistle, bell and crew dialogue are triggered by the whistle/bell button; when operated with 50Hz you have all at once together. It looks like that the power grid pulse of 60Hz or in Europe  50Hz is used to trigger anything in the electronics even in conventional mode. Operation in 50Hz seems to be regarded by electronics as pressing whistle/bell button.In this case I did not find a solution to overplay that. Only switch off or remove the sound board.

Trainsounds with TMCC: Lionel Trainsounds Caboose, Madison Trainsounds Baggage Car. when operated with 60Hz you have complete functionality, when operated with 50Hz you hear nothing. These cars have two devices: a receiver(not R2LC) and the Trainsounds board. As I understand the background, the TMCC signal uses the Zero passing of the 60Hz sine wave to get processed in the receiver and further on. To get the passing, a synchronization between the 60Hz pulse and the signal must occur(please, correct me , if I am wrong). That is done by a timer ? that is(was?) fixed for 60Hz . In one case I replaced the original receiver with an ERR minicommander, in the other case I replaced the original receiver with a receiver from a TMCC crane car that was prepared for 50Hz/60Hz operation. The original Trainsounds boards were not replaced in this case. As I operate only TMCC/Legacy, I did not performe a test in conventioal environment, I guess it would not work comparable to the TMCC cranes inoperables conventionally.. But It works in TMCC/Legacy 50Hz environment until today.

Early TMCC crane:comparable to the Trainsounds with TMCC. In 2008 Jon Z. changed the design of the receiver and a small chip applicable for 50Hz and 60Hz was introduced. I replaced some receivers in Europe to get the cranes operational in 50Hz. I have a TMCC crane in addition from early 2009 that is operational from the beginning with 50Hz.

By the way, early minicommanders were not operational in 50Hz. Jon Z. changed  in about 2005/2006.

GRJ: I guess, you 'll come to York ? Then we can go in more details as I intend to visit .

NICK12DMC: I tried a small 60Hz fed layout for operation of the TMCC crane in the 60Hz version in parallel to and separated from the 50Hz layout, but that did not work proper. Signal reception was sometimes insufficient, so I try to have all TMCC/Legacy available for 50Hz.

As I stated I am not the electronic specialist, but I hope that helpes a little bit more

Regards

Albrecht

There was a fairly recent change to the Legacy system regarding 50hz operation, I believe that was the 1.54 version of the Legacy software.

Interesting comment regarding Trainsounds in a TMCC environment. 

I was not aware Trainsounds could be controlled by TMCC or that Lionel ever built any TMCC equipment with Trainsounds. 

Nick

GRJ: version1.54  of Legacy corrected a bug that happened in version 1.53 concerning 50Hz application. All versions up to 1.52 and now 1.54 can be operated without problems in 50Hz Environment.

NICK12DMC: only few Lionel vehicles were equipped with Trainsounds operational with TMCC commands. The two mentioned cars above are examples. I used them to remove the electronics and to install these devices accordingly in a Weaver streamlined car and in a brass caboose.

Regards

Albrecht

Thanks for the clarification Albrecht. 

More items to be careful with

Regards conventional Trainsounds I do remember a lad from Holland did have a really good look at the circuit board. I understand he found one trace that connected to the AC side of things which picked up the grid pulse for triggering or timing as you mention. I think he was a Electrical Engineer but worked on the "Big Stuff" in a power station.

I know it can have its own problems, but the longer I am in the hobby the more I am glad I power our whole layout from 60Hz! Obviously for our 16" x 8" layout this is practical but for bigger setup's it would involve considerable investment.

I think Lionel were very smart with Lionchief going with DC power to avoid any possible frequency issues. Trying to explain to a 7 year old why is present from Santa does not work is not fun. Been there, got the T-Shirt! 

Nick

NICK12DMC

I considered already in the 90ies a conversion to 60Hz because of the then available QSI- and MTH-sound stuff. That was in behavior comparable to Trainsounds. One idea was a motor-generator set. I dumped the idea because of the development. QSI- and MTH-sound electronics were available for 50Hz. In 2003 I had an offer for a converter for the price of half a compact car. But that was not upgradable. I need a connection value of about 1kW for my layout. So I dumped again this idea and applied TAS-stuff to remedy the 50Hz inconvenience in four engines. That works until now.

I regard the Lionchief concept as a clever idea : for beginners and operators. Several times per year I take part in meetings for operators where a sometimes large 0 gauge 3 rail layout is created for a weekend based on mostly old Märklin or other European equipment. Depending on the preferences of the organizers the layout is either DC or AC, and not at all a chance to add TMCC or DCS. So, a RC equipped engine like a Lionchief engine is a huge advantage and  impresses even traditionalists.

Regards

Albrecht

Another advantage with DC over AC:  If the AC power is not exactly "right", the power wart/pack will correct the issue in converting to DC.

And if you need more power, a power pack for "G" railroads, or a rectifier a ham radio op might be options.

What gets "not right" about AC power?  This is a new one on me!

gunrunnerjohn posted:

What gets "not right" about AC power?  This is a new one on me!

50Hz is "not right" to 60Hz equipment, and vice versa.

Just make sure to have between 2 and 10 amps. The 50/60 hertz issue is down to program timers using the ac as the clock, video game systems have had issues with it for years, in speed up and slow down. Lionchief uses a quarts crystal behind a bridge and voltage regulator so no issues with it hypothetically. The Legacy software patch probably added the conversion ratio for sound generation between 50 and 60, since the sound generator probably still uses the AC wave form for the clock.