Lionel's New Berkshires Hitless 0 for 3

Just sold the H-7 steamer I had listed on the forum recently... and while packing it up tonight, I was reminded how much more sturdy the outer shipping cartons were 10 years ago when stuff came out of Korea.    The carton material was HEAVY DUTY back then, and both ends of the shipping carton even included 1" thick grey foam protectors to provide a little extra cushion for the locomotive during shipping.

 

Today's outer shipping cartons don't even compare, and the grey foam protectors are history.    Today's cartons are almost like paper mache compared to the cartons that were used when Lionel used Korean contractors.  The difference is THAT noticeable.  Yet the prices continue to escalate. 

 

David

I went through some thing like this.Rember the imperial 4-8-4 the conection from the  locomotive the tender.Very very easy to mess up.Heck mine came from the factory messed up.I was not happy about it.Who in the world came up with this $#%@!I paid good money for a locomotive and this what I get!What a freakin *&^$ off!Sir I hope you get your locomotives fixed.For that kind of money I just explode.

It's true $1000 is no longer the high end for a steam engine.

 

The Big Boy is the new "High End", so MSRP of $2700 or close to $2000  street price is now the "High End" stuff.

 

With the Berk being a relative cheap one comparatively, we probably shouldn't expect too much.

 

{sarcasm off}

 

-Dave

Is this horse dead yet??

 

 

 

Hi Paul,  I am just getting caught up on my reading,  thanks for posting the pictures and sorry for your problems. I think it just makes common sense that when we get out trains, we need to take them out of the box and test them.    I picked up my Berk from Eastside Trains in Kirkland yesterday. Fortunately, mine does not have your problem. If it did, I would have them fix it.  These engines are under warrenty. 

LOL   David, $225.00 in 1966 = $1,648.84 in 2014 dollars.  Judging from some of the sets I see today, looks like $225 in 1966) was on par.  

In 1965 I bought a new Chevy Malibu SS with a 283 and a 4 speed with bucket seats and a nice interior for $3,000. sweet car, would get 20 MPG. Wish I still had it. The equivalent today would be around 30 Gs, I am guessing.

I've had more out of the box issues with MTH than Lionel.  I'm 1 minor (easily repairable) issue for 27 with Lionel Legacy and Vision, and 4 (two major - complete non-runners out of the box, two minor easily repairable) for 22 with MTH Premier and Imperial.  Niether is an outstanding record but I keep going back to both wells . . . 

 

 

I'm very sorry to hear about the issues on all 3 of the Berkshires you got.  It's a little worrisome, seeing I should have the 765 any day now.  Fingers are crossed!

There's been a few times where I had issues out of the box, and it's always been with Lionel. Not once with mth. "Knock on wood".

My "out of box" purchases are from under the tables at train shows.

Maybe new trains should have a recall law for consumer protection as do automobiles. My guess is that Lionel, MTH and others would improve their quality controls knowing that a recall could be disastrous to profit.

 

Those Lionel Berks look great, but I would only buy one from a dealer where I could inspect and test it first.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. mikemike. We all know "the squeaky wheel gets the oil", meaning in this case that only total send backs for repairs on this issue will truly get Lionel's attention rather than mere lipservice from them. As for those who are willing to accept such shortcomings as merely a facet of doing business with the model train industry, then perhaps Lionel is already providing you with the level of quality contrrol you deserve.

I'm sorry, bob2, but I don't grasp your logic. You start off asking forumites whether they'd be willing to pay an extra $200 for trains that are unpacked and tested here in the USA and then close by stating, "A thousand bucks is no longer a great deal of money." If I adhere to your last statement of $1,000 not being a great deal of money, then in comparison wouldn't $200 be a relatively much smaller deal, money wise?  So why wouldn't folks then be willing to pay such an extra amount? BTW, wonder whether that's why MTH trains cost slightly more than their Lionel equivalents, not for the extra detailing and improved electronics and smoke units but rather for them be unpacked, inspected , and then repacked here in the USA before being shipped to dealers and distributors?

You may not be of the era when a penny, nickel, or dime raise an hour meant a lot to a worker on a fixed income, but yet kept Lionel and other toy makers viable. When also reliability and pride in their product was fore front on their agenda.

Seems the blame is on the Chinese, but isn't it also on the people that give these overseas contracts out and check to see the quality and testing results also at fault?

Working for a company that did have some of their product made overseas, but also had written procedures, acceptable changes, etc. in the contract, any variances would be fined, and product defects could lead to loss of contract. Also items were visually checked, and initialed, as well as items pulled and randomly tested paperwork trails.

 

I can imagine if a Flat TV, Refrigerator, Washer/Dryer, or car repairs which were 1000.00 didn't work upon delivery, or car driven off the lot after paying 1000.00 in repairs, and wasn't your 1000.00 engine, you just may get upset.

There no excuse for incompetence, nor is there for sloppy workmanship.

Bob2...are you on Housewives of Orange County???

For me it boils down to basics. Quality is an issue. For customers, it's entirely random whether theres a problem. The only ones who know how far this extends is Lionel, and Lionel is not saying "We are aware of a quality issue and we are doing X, Y and z to address this issue." This is a trust and confidence issue that common sense says that if it continues, the philosophy of accepting everything one gets whether it works or not will come back to bite the consumer and the manufacturer. 

Perception when it comes to sales is everything. You might have the greatest product in the world but trust is seldom regained once it is lost.

 

I agree 100%....reputations die hard in any industry.

Once tarnished it is hard to regain.

Is not there a marketing rule that says something like "A happy customer on average tells 2 people, but a unhappy customer tells 30 people"...or something like that...

Well they are dead pony trucks...so...right on I say!

Being very pro American. I also wish the products were made in the USA. But, it must be realized that making the product here. Does not translate into quality control.

 

It is a assumption that the USA worker is better. Plus, tgere is a good chance the worker making the product in the USA will be one of the "5 million". Or a foreign imported worker. The product issues don't go away with a USA logo on the box.

 

 I assume quality control would be simplified a bit by the USA logo. This would be the one plus.

 

It is obvious that Alfred Hitchcock can't solve the mystery of quality...

 

I used to purchase all my Engines from a Train Store in the Minneapolis Area. He unpacked every Engine, Oiled, Greased and Test Ran it on his Store Layout before calling me to tell me it was ready to be picked up!!  NOW, that's what I call Service. If something was not right, he repaired it or sent it back to LIONEL.

 

FREDSTRAINS

It is to me.

 

Rusty

My Berk came today.

Everything works except the pilot truck wheels fell off. So I get to share the frustration. Both plastic bearings are missing their top keeper tab. But all the bits were in the wrapping.

It looks like the keeper tab at the top of the plastic bearing snaps off when they are being installed. Not sure how or why but that's what the issue is. If I keep pressure on the wheels, they stay in place and are ok on the track, but will fall down without the keeper tabs clicked in place.

 

Is to me, otherwise I'd have every engine that comes out.  Would you say we are close to 90% defect rate here?  Time for Lionel to recall these engines and fix them.

I received my 765 late last week and all looks good. No bearing issues. Guess I got lucky. Sorry to those that are having issues. I've been there in the past so know what that is like.

"Would you say we are close to 90% defect rate here?"

 

I'm not sure I would draw that conclusion at all. The Forum does not represent everyone who purchased the new Berkshires. Those members who purchased one and have had a problem have probably posted here. But a lot of us who bought this engine had NO ISSUES AT ALL. I had no reason to report the status on mine, but if the quote above represents a general consensus, then it is wrong.

Maybe $15 of the price should go to the selling dealer as a fee to open up the engine, grease it and test it. Problems could be solved before the locomotive leaves the seller's shop. If 4 could be done in one hour, the shop would gross $60 and probably could afford to pay someone to do this. Sellers authorized to do this could get 2 seals to put on the box ends attesting to the fact that the locomotive had been removed for testing and returned to the box. For the purchaser desiring to run the locomotive it would be necessary to cut the seal. That would allow resales of new in box locomotives that had been tested for function if the seals were intact and address quality issues before they hit the buyers.  

I just opened my new 765 NKP and found that one of the front plastic bushings had come out.  Fortunately it was all still there, and I was able to align it and snap it in correctly. It appears to be holding correctly on the track. The packaging seemed to be all intact, so I, like others, have to suspect how it was boxed initially and the lack of quality control at the point of assembly.  Maybe Lionel should consider extending the warranty period on this part of the new Berks.

If my engines have the bushing issue and that is the worst of it, I will consider myself lucky. Good news is, sounds like parts are available and on there way...

Just inspected my NKP Berkshire from Charles Ro everything is excellent so far. I will run it later.

You would end up on the losing end of that argument, for a lot of reasons. While I love old cars, you can't even compare them to what you have today, and in terms of prices, that 3k back then is probably close to 30k today......and you get a lot more value out of a car these days. That 1965 car would get smoked by a lot of economy cars these days (take a look at zero-60 times), the brakes on cars today are infinitely superior, you geta modern car and turn the key it starts in the coldest weather, those cars after a couple of years in areas with winter would have leprosy all over the place from rust, you used to have to pull the heads on those cars around 20k miles to de-carbonize them, and despite the fact that some would last to 100k, after a couple of years you were looking to get rid of them because the engine and transmission would likely need major work, today cars routinely go 200k miles and more without needing that kind of work, and so forth. 

 

There are things that were better back then, a washing machine or dryer would last 20, 30 years, you are lucky if you get 5 or 6 these days, but with cars there is no comparison, as much as I loved my old Italian sports car, I would not like to rely on it, either. 

 

With the issue with the trains today, as we have talked about ad hominem, you are faced with items that are too small a market to have real quality control, you are dealing with remote suppliers who have the upper hand so quality is difficult to conquer, and quite frankly, you have a market of consumers who are willing to buy what they put out, blemishes and all. It is very different where there is a mass market, when consumers had a choice with cars, they voted with their feet to the consternation of Ford, Chrysler and GM whose products were not all that much better back then than you face with toy trains today, and like toy trains, there wasn't much differentiation with quality, Ford, GM and Chrysler were basically the same, as Lionel and MTH are in my opinion. The only way you will see this kind of issue resolve itself would be if the market dried up on the makers, if people refused to buy their products, but it isn't likely to happen, since all of them are made the same way, have in reality the same components and otherwise are not all different from each other. 

I was a gear head and know all about sports cars and who can smoke who. It was a nice car. I have had SS  Monte Carlos, a 69 Z28, an Impala SS, GTOs etc. We could work on them in the drive way too.

Not only is $1k a LOT to me, I would never dare spend that kind of money on a toy train. The most I have ever spent was a one time deal - $750 with a significant discount. I nearly puked spending that much......

What store was that. The grumpy guy up north of town? 

If this was a apple product. The CEO would be on his way out of the door...Great reflection on the new Management team...

Here is a picture of the two bushings. They came snapped off just where the triangular tab is that must keep them in. I superglued the tabs back on...don't know if it will hold but might until I get the replacement actual parts from Lionel. I just thought I would try fixing them...not easy to hold them perfectly until they stuck. And as you can see, I didn't glue them to my fingers.

Well, if a grand is a lot of bucks to you, isn't the extra $200 also a large sum?

 

Now that I see the bushing, I see that one cannot simply spin one up on a lathe - these are plastic snap-in axle bearings, and I feel the same way about them as I do "U" shaped boilers - I will not have a thousand dollar locomotive with such chintzy axle bearings, broken or not.  K-Line started the trend, and while their locomotives set new standards for die cast detail, they also set very low standards for this sort of thing.

 

I would not be irritated by the bearings falling out - I would be frosted that a thousand dollar toy could not have metal journal bearings, like quality models.

 

On the auto front - I have two 1965 Mustang convertibles - they are superior in many, many ways to my 2003 Ford Ranger.  If I had to select only one auto to drive, it would be my 1988 BMW 635 - a truly superior automobile, and lots better looking than anything produced today, as are the Mustangs.

I think these areas need to be  filed down slightly to prevent the bushings from snapping

Yes those areas are distorted slightly...I think they are the result of what ever caused them to break or from them being pulled out. I don't have any idea of how they could have been pulled on, but thought they were distorted by the original installation.

 

Thanks for that picture.  I just opened up mine and have the same problem.  When I opened it up, only one wheel fell out even though both of the bushings are broken.  And like others have said, with them broken, the wheels would stay on just fine while on the track under the weight of the engine.  But would fall off easily when taken on and off the track.

 

It is surprising how this passed quality control and I am sure Lionel is not pleased on such an important and popular engine.  Here they were likely very proud that these got here well before the holidays only to have this rain on their parade.  They will make it right and definitely will try to not have this happen again.  I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now and know that their embarrassment and anger for this is greater than our disappointment.

 

I did try to file to smooth, but even the tiny pattern file is too thick to fit in the gap shown. Maybe I'll grind one thinner. I was think careful so as to not lose holding power. And it looks worse than it is actually.