Lionel's New Berkshires Hitless 0 for 3

I am in amazement that this happened. I wish someone could double check these before they get boxed up. I was nervous when I went to go get my NKP Version, I am making sure from now on I look at engines I order at the shop before I take it home.

That is really pathetic. I feel really bad for you. What a disappointment.

A really sad commentary on the state of the marketplace.  Buy old ones at train shows or new ones off the shelf at a hobby shop.  How frustrating. 

WOW, that is terrible and very unlucky. Looks like the QC is nonexistant.

Just a thought here, but I've been reading of this problem starting this week with the first people to receive these. 

This MAY not be an assembly issue as much as a possible packaging issue...maybe the packaging foam is not up to the job of keeping the front and rear trucks from flopping around in transit.

I remember seeing new "O" Lionel 2-6-6-2's back in the early 2000's that had cracked pilot assemblies new out of the package due to not being protected by the package.

At any rate, Lionel has a looming issue to deal with and I'm sure they will step up and make these right-just not as fast as we'd like.

You're looking at a small sample size, but I think it's like sitting next to someone on an airplane who spills something on you: Once is an accident, twice is a coincidence, three times is intentional.

 

Either there is a disgruntled/sloppy/incompetent/overworked employee(s) at that point on the assembly line, the packaging is inadequate, or something else.  Regardless, the Quality Control and post-assembly inspection appears to be nonexistent.  Your experience points to a problem in the manufacturing and delivery system, not to bad luck (i.e., "what are the odds?").

 

This needs to be brought to the highest levels of attention at Lionel.  Until then, other suggestions about opening the package immediately, buying used at a show, etc. are all the right things to do.

 

Pretty sobering post, thanks for sharing.

Paul

 

  I  got my 765 from Charles RO.  Looking at your photos, I have the same side bearing failure on the front pilot and the trailing truck.  The bearing failure on the trailing truck is on the most rearward wheels.   I am in the process of deciding whether send it to Lionel for repair and at whose expense;  request repair parts from Lionel with and an understanding from Lionel that this would not void their warranty; or send it back to RO for replacement or refund.  

 

  It is disconcerting to think that a new out of the box engine wheel failure could cause one of these engines to hit the floor during operation.  It would be an interesting challenge of diplomacy and will to file a damage claim with Lionel.

 

Perhaps Charle RO received a pallet of defective engines. If that be the case, then it would probably be difficult to get a replacement for these BTO engines.

 

  I would much appreciate your thoughts on your resolution to this issue.

 

Chris Cook

This is starting to look like a common problem on these new Berkshires.

 I imagine the gears are starting to whir over at Lionel.

 

Rod

Unreal, it is not only Lionel, just seems like all products and companies these days have QC issues. 

 

Art

 

Paul - I feel your pain and I admire how well you posted the issue that you have. Me, with around $3k out of pocket I'd be fuming.

 

No one has suggested it yet, but why not send your pics to Mike Reagan?

 

I hope you get it resolved quickly and to your satisfaction.

Painful

While I certainly understand your frustration after investing more money than some people make in one month.  Can't those bushings be super glued back into position with little effort?  Are all 3 bushings in the boxes or did you just get two?  

 

It is amazing that all 3 engines have basically the same issue.  Hopefully you will be able to get it all squared away without too much hassle.  I am sure Lionel will do what it needs to make it right. Especially on $1,000 engines!

 

Too bad about the problems, always frustrasting when it happens.

I must say, each time I see it, I'm liking that gold engine more and more.

Joe

I'm sure it is an unintentional materials issue.  I'm pretty sure ALL of the berks are, or will shortly, develop this issue.  The plastic is too brittle and will not stand the stress over time... especially on an axle.  We can only hope that the same resin was not used on other areas.  And at that price point, you could have built them in the US.  I'm waiting for my PE to show up.  $10 says it has an issue.

I'm pretty sure that Lionel personnel will read this and take appropriate action. Of course it is disappointing to have a new engine with any failures, but as Marty has said, once repaired, these are spectacular engines.

 

Please let us know how you make out with the repairs, Paul.

Okay everyone. I know what I'm about to say won't be agreed on by all but it's my opinion. I know somebody may likely post that such occurences aren't that much of an issue since Lionel has Mike R. in charge of customer service and that he's a great asset to Lionel. Aside from Mike R. being a great asset, Lionel likely wouldn't need to depend on him to such an extent if their quality control were better. Perhaps he'd be better utilized if he were positioned on site at the factories where these problems originate overseeing that they don't occur rather than being in N.C. to deal with rectifying them after the fact. To me, being proactive beats being reactive any day in  any endeavor.

Luckily, that guy was on a break when mine was assembled.  Perfect.  I love it.  Here is mine, relabeled as the Canon City, Blanca and Glen Canyon Railroad #765, with its 2-10-4 big brother.

 

 

 

Waiting for my Gold PE. It will delivered to FL while I am in NC. If there are issues like this, it will be a field trip to Charlotte from NC. Maybe Lee Willis will come with me!

 

That way I can ask questions as well. Have to agree that while a problem, not a fatal flaw. That being said, I don't yet have mine.

 

Bruce

quote:

This MAY not be an assembly issue as much as a possible packaging issue...maybe the packaging foam is not up to the job of keeping the front and rear trucks from flopping around in transit.

 

Assembly issue or packaging issue, it is still Lionel's problem.
If it was a packaging issue, the part would be somewhere in the box.

 

Sad to see that a trusted brand name would let it's QC sink this low. It should never have happened. period. And yes I do like Lionel, tis a shame.

I don't know what to say other than I really feel bad for your guys getting new exciting engines just before Christmas and then to discover there is something wrong with them.  It almost doesn't matter what is wrong, but the fact that they aren't new and trouble-free out of the box sucks. 

 

If we were buying cheap junk from China we might expect something like this.  Well, at least they weren't cheap. 

 

Art

It isnt just model trains. I have had the same issues of crummy quality in a dishwasher, two vacuums..and more recently, a laptop which did not work out of the box. Guess what?

I found out later, my wife's friend bought an identical laptop and...same issue. 

I am not saying Lionel is off the hook but this is not an isolated problem. I bought a Williams EP5 new in the box. The front truck fell out. A Lionel 0-8-0 no longer smokes despite never having been run empty. One of the reciprocating rods spark. Brand new.

Its all over.

Are you guys printing you own money?  How many times do you guys buy this stuff, knowing you gotta rattle the box before you open it?  If these were automobiles that would not start the next morning, would you go back and buy TWO more?

Sorry you have to deal with these issues. With that said, **** those 3 engines look impressive Lined up!

This isn't a new problem, and it isn't a coincidence.  I had exactly the same issue with lead & trailing truck bearings on my 6-11203 Pere Marquette Berkshire a few years ago.  My $1000+ loco couldn't be run until Lionel supplied a couple of $0.80 replacement parts--which were out of stock for a little while because the loco was "too new."  I have great empathy for anyone who has a problem with this, or any other new loco!

 

By choosing delrin inserts for bearings, Lionel abandoned some long accepted engineering practices.  Since the failures are common, maybe they need to rethink this decision.  But what I would really like to know is, how are these bearings getting broken, with no other damage to the loco or the box?

Sorry to hear of your problems. I will open mine today to inspect. I have always felt like we must flood Lionel/MTH with returns even though it is a fixable issue at home and will cost you a few more bucks.  Only when they have massive continuous returns on multiple products will they begin initiating changes.  At that point things will begin to change because it will become more cost effective. Until then they are just shoving it on you the customer. I suppose this post will violate some forum rules and I will be excommunicated. 

Sorry but that is the way I see it on my $2,000 purchase. 

A very valid point...

100 percent in your case...Maybe, the policy name needs to be changed. Buy it defective to order (BDO).. IMHO, If I need to have it repaired out of the box-I consider it buying used product!

 

If some can get over the, "I have to have it syndrome. They should demand cash refunds for defective train hardware.

 

This is the only way the quality will rise. The Company will need to change or fail.

 

 

 

 

 

Good to know.... I am now checking all of ours before they ship.... Thanks.

Just another example of lack of hands on quality control at the factory level.  The one forgotten part of assembly equation is the lack of "pride" in what the assemblers do on the line.  There is no possibility of this in China since it is mostly slave labor and all they want is their little money, a roof over their head and their rice and fish meals.  Another words, China's factory workers really don't care about the product they are building.

 

Steve, Lady and Tex

I know Lionel will resolve the issue, I have no doubts about that, Mike R and I have talked many times in the past. And all of my issues with some pieces that I have had have been resolved quickly. Disappointed yes, unhappy no which maybe attributive somewhat to the fact that I do not have a operating layout. The engines look great and I'm happy that I have mine. I had the 2 Polar Express pre-ordered right after they were announced last year so I could not wait to have them.

 

 

I have another photo of the bearing that I took last night. The last one that I took out the box was the gold Polar and laying inside the box was the smaller piece from the photo above. And I was scratching my head as to what is it and were it was from. So I now believe it is part of the bearing. The bearings did not fall out immediately but as I was picking them up from the tracks. The one bearing from the rear truck was in there but it was in there sideways.

 

But all in all I'm pleased with the pieces and the best one has to be the Gold Polar Express which is just stunning. No sooner then I took the tender out of the box and started to put it next to the black that I noticed how much better it looked then the black one. I would love to be able to buy just a Black Polar Tender Body with the WIDER LETTER SPACING. I'm not sure of the lettering on the first Polar tender and I don't know exactly where mine is.

 

Whew. Lotsa words.

 

Yeah, ideally, the bushing problems "should" not have happened. But, they did, and are

pretty easily fixable. (I've done it.) I have sent a loco back to Lionel (bad Pittman - odd!) and MTH (bad DCS/PS2). Been a while. It's really annoying to have to.

 

I used to know an O-gauger who would hit the ceiling over any little problem (and the truly

big ones? Fuggedaboutit!) and could spend weeks - months - wrestling with whoever

was the offending importer, all the while not getting any use, not to mention pleasure, out of his recent purchase. "It's the principle of the thing!" 

 

Posh. It's a model. When you can, fix it and enjoy it; if you can't, then contact the

appropriate entities for credit, repair, replacement or refund. 

 

I'm not making light of a big purchase that just goes oink - but, really guys, geopolitics

has little to do with it. I know for a fact - as do you all - that not every piece that

came out of Irvington, Hillside or Chesterfield was flawless. And those products were,

by comparison, simple, small, plain and repetitive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yup collect your paycheck and leave .. No difference really . I must be different I installed a kitchen yesterday and took a cabinet down 3 times to make sure it was right ..

Here is just one report on problems in China's factories:

 

http://www.globalsources.com/N...inese-factories.html

 

Steve, Lady and Tex

 

Add Mexico where the airbags were made.

http://www.reuters.com/article...dUSKCN0J41BX20141120

RickO - Please allow me to retort.

 

You are indeed correct when stating that simply moving the manufacturing of an item to the States provides no guarantee that QC will be improved.  It is absolutely possible that QC could be just as bad here in the States.

 

But it's my opinion, that by and large, QC stands a much better chance of improving here in the US....for a number of reasons.  Nor am I advocating a pro-Union rah-rah position etc.

 

The reality of the situation is that China is frequently chosen because it's cheap.  Plain and simple.  But, as the saying goes, you always get what you pay for.

 

And yes - your link to the GM story reports a truly shocking mentality.

 

 

 

It's been a while since Mike R changed jobs.  Pretty sure his replacement in CS is named Phil Hull.  While they are nearly the same size, aside from that they don't look much alike!

 

From casual conversations at the Legacy Breakfast, it sounds like Mike has been to China, but I wouldn't bet he or anyone else from Lionel stateside is going to take up residence there anytime soon (not that I could blame them, but then I'm not in the business of selling model trains made on the other side of the world).

 

 

I've returned some items over the years for issues, but I suspect they end up in the hands of more forgiving customers than myself rather than making it all the way back to the manufacturer.  I would wonder if any returns ever make it back to the manufacturer (or even the distributor).

 

That would be nice, but the "got to have it" syndrome is too ingrained in the hobby as a whole.  If not, we would not be in this situation to this extent to begin with.

 

-Dave

 

I guess the airbags were already mentioned.  There are quite a number of Fords out there that suffer a very expensive automatic transmission failure every 25,000 miles or so.  And now we hear that a certain aircraft magneto has started failing in the first several hundred hours of operation.  These magnetoes are almost identical to the 1930s Case tractor magnetoes, and used to give thousands of hours between overhauls.

 

I would machine new bushings, install them, and go on having fun.  This little error is simply lost in the noise.  And do not believe we could make these things here for a grand - it cannot happen unless you would take a job for six bucks an hour.

2 pages of replies to this post so far. Gee, I can hardly wait for the Big Boy in a month or so.

I seem to recall this problem with the last batch of Lionel scale Berkshires, 2010 or so. If this type of reoccurrence happened in most companies there would be some demotions and jobs lost.

I agree with Berkshire P.

I would wager that as a group we have a higher tolerance for out of the box failures with respect to trains than we would for other major purchases we may make.

I believe that if we were more demanding, especially at the prices we pay, the QC would improve.

 

Unfortunately, I have had too many out of the box train failures causing me to pull way back on new purchases.

 

I'm not going to get wrapped up in all the hype because Lionel has gone BTO.

 

There will always be plenty of trains to buy......new or secondary......

 

Just be patient....

 

Soo Line 

 

That's great for those with the skills and facilities to do so.  I do not have the ability to "machine" anything.  I'm fully capable of moderate dis-assembly and small wiring tweaks if needed, but machining anything (from what material, while we are at it?  is it something we should all have on hand in our fully stocked machine shop?) is not going to happen in my case at least.

 

To me that's an equivalent statement of telling me to simply re-program my fuel injector if the car won't start.

 

I'm sure you are right about the costs to make here, however.  The other factor is all the business models demand improvement on previous year's performance.  Peculiar that they don't worry about quality for the consumer, just overall financial.  There is no "reset" to make up for quality slippages over the years.  Still need to show better numbers than last year.

 

Since people are willing to accept things though and the money keeps coming in, from a business perspective, it's all good!

 

-Dave

Wow, I'm sorry to hear of so many people having trouble.  One would hope that with a locomotive that expensive someone would be double checking everything before it is boxed up.  

There's nothing like quality, and that's nothing like it! 

Ask GM about ignition switches that the Engineer Department knew about...

 

Rusty

The bushing in the trailing truck on my engine is broken in half.  Has any one replaced this bushing without taking the truck off of the engine? The removal of a couple of screws and the C retaining ring is fairly straight forward.  Whereas the the retaining ring most likely is the part with the most potential to go flying off somewhere, probably a new one should be included in any parts order. 

 

  Will Lionel still back the warranty with this type of customer repair?  Will they create a service bulletin to follow?  Questions that I will be asking Lionel's service department.

.

RickO

 

  I am in full agreement with you about taking a chance of exposing these engines to a round trip to Lionel, given the shipping industry's rough handling practices.  Before I could get out the front door, the delivery person tossed the box up onto the porch.  Somewhere along the way, the corner of the flimsy shipping box sustained some minor damage which in turn put a small crimp in the orange box.  The styrofoam container was unscathed. 

 

 

  It is good to see Steve Nelson's post that he will be checking his inventory as , I believe, a direct positive result of this thread.  It will save him and his customers some disapointment.

 

Chris Cook 

 

  

  

For parts external, at least, I have had excellent results with "Contact Lionel" emails. I have outlined the failures, explained how I arrived at a solution that I could effect, and listed the part(s) I needed. Pictures help. Lionel has always been agreeable to sending me some small bits in a few days. Certainly it saves additional costs on their end, saves me time, adds to the fun of the puzzle of model trains, and hopefully prevents, somewhat, their profit margin being diminished such that they have to raise prices. 

quote:

Yup collect your paycheck and leave .. No difference really . I must be different I installed a kitchen yesterday and took a cabinet down 3 times to make sure it was right ..

 

There are contractors around here with high standards. They certainly aren't hurting for work. The wait for their services can be fairly long.

 

quote:

I would machine new bushings, install them, and go on having fun.

 

How many people participating on this board have the facilities and knowledge to machine new bushings? I think one of my buddies could.

Did you make fun of the Red Sox at Charlies booth at York?

 

In all seriousness, Whether manufactured in China or in the USA, if there is no Quality Control inspection process in place, like there was at the old Lionel Factory in New Jersey, it will continue to happen. I guess it has to become a big enough headache, or an expensive problem, for Lionel to realize this.

 

Everybody check your engines as soon as you get them and don't take less than perfect! 

Lionel did a recall for bad traction tires so I would think this would fall in the same bucket. 

Wow !!  You guys filled my "in" box. If I paid a grand for a toy engine an parts were off it in the box I would be very upset no matter where it was made.  I haven't bought one and have no intention to buy one but interesting. A lot of people should understand the manufacturing and market conditions today. Let's face it, today these tings are made somewhere in China under God knows what conditions.Lionel, MTH an others are marketing organizations not manufacturers. I don't know but would be surprised if they even directly employed an designers or engineers. Not that simple to switch your production to someone else so it will depend on how Lionel responds. Now I am going to go run my 1952 Berkshire.

Not to pile on, but it seems to me a QC issue across the board, please examine the following purchases and issues I found, ALL NEW RIGHT OUT OF THE BOX:

 

Train 1 - September 2014:

MTH PS3 LIRR MU had binded gears right out of the box

 

Train 2 - September 2014:

MTH PS3 LIRR MU was the dealer replacement for Train 1 above, and only had one truck powered.

 

Train 3 - September 2014:

MTH PS3 LIRR MU was the dealer replacement for Train 2 above, it runs...but has some funky quirks

 

Train 4 - Sepetember 2014

Lionel TMCC SP SD40-2's, both took some work by the dealer for the lead unit and myself for the trailing unit to work without hitch.

 

Train 5 - November 2014

Lionel Legacy WP F3, no grease on gears, totally dry, A-Unit engine, motor or gears...not sure is a little noisy,  door found fallen off of B-Unit in box, reverse performance on lead A-unit and trailing A-unit (unpowered) is poor, i.e. derailment on a straight track.

Lead A-unit is wobbly. Oversized traction tires affecting performance as they rub against the truckframe/brake shoes...thanks lionel...

 

Train 6 - November 2014 

Lionel PWC F3 TX SP A Unit, took this out of the box only for the 2nd time, and it will not respond to commands.

First time right out of the box, the power units lead truck had the engine mount screw fall out and I had to loc-tite it back in.

 

 

Thats a great reason to start buying from you.

Except that workers in the USA do not make Dog food containing a toxic protein substitute, to help line China's pockets and kill our cats and dogs.

Nor do USA workers make toxic Happy Meal toys containing lead to give to our children.

Nor make baby food that poisons babies.

USA workers do not use paint containing lead on pet toys to poison our pets or drywall that rots our electrical wiring in our homes.

USA workers do not make vitamins containing industrial waste.

The list goes on and on and on....in China's disregard for human life and the products they make.

I really don't know if it would hold. Only one them had the additional small piece in the box. The bearing for the black polar in the trailing truck is almost missing half of the bottom portion to me.

 

When I call about them and if they decide just to send me the parts I'm going to ask for them to send 6 of them to replace all 6. To me this must be a defective part and if they broke off on one side I do not think it would be long before the other side will brake off.

 

But I'm not in a big rush to where I need them tomorrow. With no operating layout at this time they will just sit in their boxes. I have the 2nd scale Polar Express engine here if I need one to use.

No matter what particular axe(s) you feel like grinding regarding the country of manufacture, a locomotive at this price point should not have any defects whatsoever.  No excuses.

 

Pete

 

 

My LHS, Imperial Trains, always opens, tests, and takes care of any issues before I leave the shop. 

The purchaser of a new, out of the box Anything should not have to repair it but dealing with China anything is possible. It is also possible that the same Chinese company is making engines for several of the American companies-look at this air bag fiasco.  And the mfr. knew about it some years ago.  For all you know, these toys could be assembled in some Chinese woman's house and she gets paid by the piece. I just hope the company putting these units together is a Chinese defense contractor making all their new weapons.

 

SandJam wrote: "Strange the engine has plastic but the tender has brass bushings.  Who is the final say on design?  Lionel or the manufacturer? "

 

The tender has weight, but these are light weight pilot wheels that really don't support the engine. Maybe that's why.

Doesnt matter...as long as China is making them, they will ignore and so whatever they want.

The makers of American dog food a few years back and McDonalds a few years back designed their products to be safe....the Chinese cut corners to pad their profits and killed our dogs and cats and endangered or children.

The sooner we stop having a country that right now can hack and take down our entire electric grid is never a good thing.

       
I think that's great.  What would be even better is if Lionel (and yes, MTH, Atlas...also) did this before the higher-end product is shipped to the distributors/dealers.  They may not be able to afford to build them in the U.S., but you can't tell me that they can't afford to inspect them here.  If the QC can't be done effectively overseas, it should be done once the product arrives here in the States.  Bottom line: Lionel should have discovered this issue on a thousand-dollar locomotive, whether caused by faulty manufacturing or faulty packaging, before any dealers or customers discovered it.  Period.

 

       
Not sure I even know what this statement means, Marty.  Are you trying to say Lionel would have still shipped them to the distributors/dealers if they saw broken bearing pieces laying in the boxes??  Guess I'm naive as I don't want to believe they would do something like that.  It makes this story even worse!!  And here I thought you were a brand "L" guy through and through.

I sure want a inspection in the states. Lionel should want it even more then us. When $1000.00 is spent for a quality engine like the Berkshire the last thing Lionel should want is there customer unwrapping the engine and the wheel falls out along with broken bushings. Then their customer has to set a new $1000.00 engine in the siding while waiting for replacement bushings to arrive. Then we have the worry that we can successfully replace the bushings on our new engine. Certainly the need for Lionel to have the assembly plant practice P.A.T.D. is paramount. We have P.A.T.D. signs throughout my place of business.

My confidence of the Big Boy working correctly is very low.

P.A.T.D. (pay attention to detail)

Bob

 

So a thousand bucks.  It comes from China all packaged up, in styrofoam, with tissue paper carefully taped on.

 

Are you willing to pay another hundred bucks for a US worker, who gets an average salary and benefits, to unpack, test, examine, and then repack?  Come to think of it, it might take more than an hour, so you are looking at $200 extra?

 

I am guessing no, considering how easily replaced a simple bushing is.

 

If I need a bushing or fairlead, I machine them out of Teflon.  I have no idea what this particular bushing looks like, but I bet it could be replaced with a stack of washers.

 

A thousand bucks is no longer a great deal of money. In 2-rail scale, freight cars are approaching half that, without couplers!

Speak for yourself, I would gladly pay extra money, even a $100 if I received a product that was in the shape intended when I took it out of the box.  The pain of getting repairs done and the time involved is much more than $100. 

 

Steve, Lady and Tex

I agree Steve!

It cost the poor dealer money that sold me 3 MTH LIRR MU's and had to be exchanged in shipping costs.

I would rather employ some poor guy from the inner city who is an american citizen who will always care more than a person from another country....or in the case of China a heartless country.

 

It is to me!!!  Just that now it's all too easy to spend it without even loading up your trunk.    Heck you don't even need two hands to walk out the door with $1K worth of stuff.    Absolutely crazy... but it ain't gonna change anytime soon. 

 

Time to wax philosophical about the "good ole days"... in that 1966 Lionel Catalog which featured a COMPLETE Super-O train set, including a 773 Hudson, 7 freight cars (3 of which were operating), Super-O track with a pair of remote turnouts, and last but not least the venerable ZW.   All for the whopping price of $225... which admittedly was a lotta money back in those days.    But at least you walked outta the store with a few boxes that had some "heft" to them.  Might even have needed to make two trips to the car.  So you didn't feel too bad. 

 

David

It seems the Chinese are always looking to cut corners.   This is one of the "costs" of doing business there.  

Funny thing is, MTH does just that, i.e. unpacks every steam locomotive model, tests it, and repackages it. Wonder how much "stuff" they find doing THAT.

Just sold the H-7 steamer I had listed on the forum recently... and while packing it up tonight, I was reminded how much more sturdy the outer shipping cartons were 10 years ago when stuff came out of Korea.    The carton material was HEAVY DUTY back then, and both ends of the shipping carton even included 1" thick grey foam protectors to provide a little extra cushion for the locomotive during shipping.

 

Today's outer shipping cartons don't even compare, and the grey foam protectors are history.    Today's cartons are almost like paper mache compared to the cartons that were used when Lionel used Korean contractors.  The difference is THAT noticeable.  Yet the prices continue to escalate. 

 

David

I went through some thing like this.Rember the imperial 4-8-4 the conection from the  locomotive the tender.Very very easy to mess up.Heck mine came from the factory messed up.I was not happy about it.Who in the world came up with this $#%@!I paid good money for a locomotive and this what I get!What a freakin *&^$ off!Sir I hope you get your locomotives fixed.For that kind of money I just explode.

It's true $1000 is no longer the high end for a steam engine.

 

The Big Boy is the new "High End", so MSRP of $2700 or close to $2000  street price is now the "High End" stuff.

 

With the Berk being a relative cheap one comparatively, we probably shouldn't expect too much.

 

{sarcasm off}

 

-Dave

Is this horse dead yet??

 

 

 

Hi Paul,  I am just getting caught up on my reading,  thanks for posting the pictures and sorry for your problems. I think it just makes common sense that when we get out trains, we need to take them out of the box and test them.    I picked up my Berk from Eastside Trains in Kirkland yesterday. Fortunately, mine does not have your problem. If it did, I would have them fix it.  These engines are under warrenty. 

LOL   David, $225.00 in 1966 = $1,648.84 in 2014 dollars.  Judging from some of the sets I see today, looks like $225 in 1966) was on par.  

In 1965 I bought a new Chevy Malibu SS with a 283 and a 4 speed with bucket seats and a nice interior for $3,000. sweet car, would get 20 MPG. Wish I still had it. The equivalent today would be around 30 Gs, I am guessing.

I've had more out of the box issues with MTH than Lionel.  I'm 1 minor (easily repairable) issue for 27 with Lionel Legacy and Vision, and 4 (two major - complete non-runners out of the box, two minor easily repairable) for 22 with MTH Premier and Imperial.  Niether is an outstanding record but I keep going back to both wells . . . 

 

 

I'm very sorry to hear about the issues on all 3 of the Berkshires you got.  It's a little worrisome, seeing I should have the 765 any day now.  Fingers are crossed!

There's been a few times where I had issues out of the box, and it's always been with Lionel. Not once with mth. "Knock on wood".

My "out of box" purchases are from under the tables at train shows.

Maybe new trains should have a recall law for consumer protection as do automobiles. My guess is that Lionel, MTH and others would improve their quality controls knowing that a recall could be disastrous to profit.

 

Those Lionel Berks look great, but I would only buy one from a dealer where I could inspect and test it first.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. mikemike. We all know "the squeaky wheel gets the oil", meaning in this case that only total send backs for repairs on this issue will truly get Lionel's attention rather than mere lipservice from them. As for those who are willing to accept such shortcomings as merely a facet of doing business with the model train industry, then perhaps Lionel is already providing you with the level of quality contrrol you deserve.

I'm sorry, bob2, but I don't grasp your logic. You start off asking forumites whether they'd be willing to pay an extra $200 for trains that are unpacked and tested here in the USA and then close by stating, "A thousand bucks is no longer a great deal of money." If I adhere to your last statement of $1,000 not being a great deal of money, then in comparison wouldn't $200 be a relatively much smaller deal, money wise?  So why wouldn't folks then be willing to pay such an extra amount? BTW, wonder whether that's why MTH trains cost slightly more than their Lionel equivalents, not for the extra detailing and improved electronics and smoke units but rather for them be unpacked, inspected , and then repacked here in the USA before being shipped to dealers and distributors?

You may not be of the era when a penny, nickel, or dime raise an hour meant a lot to a worker on a fixed income, but yet kept Lionel and other toy makers viable. When also reliability and pride in their product was fore front on their agenda.

Seems the blame is on the Chinese, but isn't it also on the people that give these overseas contracts out and check to see the quality and testing results also at fault?

Working for a company that did have some of their product made overseas, but also had written procedures, acceptable changes, etc. in the contract, any variances would be fined, and product defects could lead to loss of contract. Also items were visually checked, and initialed, as well as items pulled and randomly tested paperwork trails.

 

I can imagine if a Flat TV, Refrigerator, Washer/Dryer, or car repairs which were 1000.00 didn't work upon delivery, or car driven off the lot after paying 1000.00 in repairs, and wasn't your 1000.00 engine, you just may get upset.

There no excuse for incompetence, nor is there for sloppy workmanship.

Bob2...are you on Housewives of Orange County???

For me it boils down to basics. Quality is an issue. For customers, it's entirely random whether theres a problem. The only ones who know how far this extends is Lionel, and Lionel is not saying "We are aware of a quality issue and we are doing X, Y and z to address this issue." This is a trust and confidence issue that common sense says that if it continues, the philosophy of accepting everything one gets whether it works or not will come back to bite the consumer and the manufacturer. 

Perception when it comes to sales is everything. You might have the greatest product in the world but trust is seldom regained once it is lost.

 

I agree 100%....reputations die hard in any industry.

Once tarnished it is hard to regain.

Is not there a marketing rule that says something like "A happy customer on average tells 2 people, but a unhappy customer tells 30 people"...or something like that...

Well they are dead pony trucks...so...right on I say!

Being very pro American. I also wish the products were made in the USA. But, it must be realized that making the product here. Does not translate into quality control.

 

It is a assumption that the USA worker is better. Plus, tgere is a good chance the worker making the product in the USA will be one of the "5 million". Or a foreign imported worker. The product issues don't go away with a USA logo on the box.

 

 I assume quality control would be simplified a bit by the USA logo. This would be the one plus.

 

It is obvious that Alfred Hitchcock can't solve the mystery of quality...

 

I used to purchase all my Engines from a Train Store in the Minneapolis Area. He unpacked every Engine, Oiled, Greased and Test Ran it on his Store Layout before calling me to tell me it was ready to be picked up!!  NOW, that's what I call Service. If something was not right, he repaired it or sent it back to LIONEL.

 

FREDSTRAINS