Skip to main content

Since boats are Hydrodynamic vehicles, could anyone challenge the belief that the 1908 McKeen Motor Car Cuyamaca is the oldest example of aerodynamic design in the world?  Or is there another train, automobile or aeroplane that shows purposeful aerodynamic design?  Planes weren't really aerodynamically designed until 1911, which was 3 years after the Cuyamaca McKeen Car was built.  If so, the McKeen Car Cuyamaca would be of great historical importance in that aspect, non the less, being the only known piece of equipment left from the San Diego, Cuyamaca & Eastern Railroad, and being one of the McKeen Motor Cars still around.  If anyone can prove either side of the idea, then I would greatly appreciate it. 

mckeen 751-3

Attachments

Images (1)
  • McKeen Motor Car "Cuyamaca" #1 San Diego Cuyamaca & Eastern Railroad
Original Post

Replies sorted oldest to newest

 

From: The Truth About Cras

 

Racers, particularly those chasing the coveted Land Speed Record (LSR), were generally the first to employ aerodynamic aids. The La Jamais Contente (The Never Satisfied) was the first automobile to break the 100kmh (62 mph) record, in 1899. Like all the first batch of LSR holders, it was an EV. The driver’s position seems to negate the aerodynamic aids, or maybe he was just posing, and more likely crouched down for the actual run.

 

 

Same source:

 

The evolution of aerodynamics for LSR cars was remarkably rapid, as this Stanley Steamer Rocket of 1906 evidently shows. And the increase in speed was even more dramatic: the Rocket broke the 200km barrier, with a run of 205.44 kmh (127.66  mph). That would not be bettered until 1924, and not until 2009 for steam powered vehicles.

 

 

Last edited by Mill City
Do any of these pre-1908 vehicles still exist?  If not, then the McKeen Car would still be the earliest still existing example of streamline design.  Although, I said Aerodynamic design because when William McKeen visited the St. Louis Worlds Fair in 1904, he say the results of a test from Germany testing aerodynamic design.  He based his design on Aerodynamic tests done with rail vehicles in Germany, so I think it is both "streamlined design" and "Aerodynamic Design." 
 
Correct me if I'm wrong.
 
 
 
Originally Posted by Arthur P. Bloom:

Aristotle and Archimedes (2nd and 3rd centuries, BCE)

 

Newton (1726)

 

Bernoulli (1738)

 

Cayley (1799)

 

Euler (1757)

 

and Da Vinci might disagree. 

 

You are describing "streamlining" not "aerodynamics" to be precise. The fellows mentioned above were involved in the evolution of aerodynamics.

 

(Just sayin'.)

 

Streamlining as a concept is quite old, initially used, I think, for marine transportation - boat hulls and in the late Victorian era some submarines, etc.  Many early "Zeppilin" type powered balloons (photo below is from 1900).  I know of no locomotive that was streamlined ealrier than the McKeen Motor coach, but it would not surprise me is some wacko-inventer tried his hand at it in the late 1900s.  Regardless, I think the McKeen motor coach is certainly among the first and perhaps the oldest existing streamlined trains. 

 

Oldest existing among trains.  Would you know of any non-train examples?
 
Originally Posted by Lee Willis:

Streamlining as a concept is quite old, initially used, I think, for marine transportation - boat hulls and in the late Victorian era some submarines, etc.  Many early "Zeppilin" type powered balloons (photo below is from 1900).  I know of no locomotive that was streamlined ealrier than the McKeen Motor coach, but it would not surprise me is some wacko-inventer tried his hand at it in the late 1900s.  Regardless, I think the McKeen motor coach is certainly among the first and perhaps the oldest existing streamlined trains. 

 

 

The Petaluma and Santa Rosa Railroad, an electric railroad in Northern California, had several cars known as "wind splitters". i believe these cars were built by St Louis Car Company in 1904 and were exhibited at the 1904 St Louis World Fair.  The cars ran in to the 1930s when P and SR discontinued passenger operation. The McKeen Car is clearly a copy of the St Louis design.  There is still at last one Wind Splitter body around being used as a home.  There are a number of books on the P and SR with photos of these cars. If you would like more information I would suggest you contact the FM Smith Library at the Western Railway Musuem. Suisun, CA. 

The Stanley brothers (twins) and their driver, who survived the experience, also managed to get that 1906 car up to what they thought was 200 MPH (please note that the body is streamlined, but appears flat on the bottom, and there are no spoilers to keep it earthbound) when it went airborne, end for end, disentegrated, and the famous

explosion proof wire wound boiler rolled a mile down the Florida beach.  The brothers

decided that further experiments were too dangerous and let the 127 stand.

After taking a look taking a look at one of those 1904 St. Louis car, I the front is slightly rounded, but since it wasnt as pronounced 13' long nose of the McKeen Car.  If one of these '04 cars still exist, then it would be the oldest known streamlined car, but if it has been scraped, it would leave the Cuyamaca open to that name.  Do any of these other vehicles still exist.

After taking a look taking a look at one of those 1904 St. Louis car, I the front is slightly rounded, but since it wasnt as pronounced 13' long nose of the McKeen Car.

 

Which points out that the design of the McKeen car isn't really a very good aerodynamic shape.  A McKeen car would have lower aerodynamic drag if it traveled backwards, at least at subsonic speeds. 

 

 

That is true, but as I remember, it wasn't until the 30's when scientists found that out.  
Originally Posted by Ted Hikel:

After taking a look taking a look at one of those 1904 St. Louis car, I the front is slightly rounded, but since it wasnt as pronounced 13' long nose of the McKeen Car.

 

Which points out that the design of the McKeen car isn't really a very good aerodynamic shape.  A McKeen car would have lower aerodynamic drag if it traveled backwards, at least at subsonic speeds. 

 

 

 

Froude and Reynolds worked in the 19th century.  The Wright brothers built their first wind tunnel in 1901.  The NACA developed their famous cowling and many airfoils in the 1920s.  While there were certainly great advancements in aerodynamics that came after the McKeen car I do not believe that it represents an attempt to apply the best aerodynamic knowledge of the day.  The tapered "bow" on the McKeen car is just a styling and marketing hook.

The McKeens were not shaped that way for marketing, it did was a turning point for consumers, but McKeen did test the design, and he showed that a car of the same size with a flat front was the equivalent to 87.5 HP at 60 MPH, while the Parabolic nose McKeen used only 21.9 HP at the same speed.  
 
Originally Posted by Ted Hikel:

Froude and Reynolds worked in the 19th century.  The Wright brothers built their first wind tunnel in 1901.  The NACA developed their famous cowling and many airfoils in the 1920s.  While there were certainly great advancements in aerodynamics that came after the McKeen car I do not believe that it represents an attempt to apply the best aerodynamic knowledge of the day.  The tapered "bow" on the McKeen car is just a styling and marketing hook.

 

We do know that streamlining works today, but what we don't know is the extent of the effieceny of the design.  If those statistics aren't true, then I wonder who made it up.  He never really used that on advertisements, he would more often talk about how the car was like a whole train, so if he never (or rarely) used these stats, then why would they be faked?  I can't say any more on this design until I recover McKeen's old papers in a private library.
 
Originally Posted by Ted Hikel:

Read the sentence after the wind resistance to horsepower claim.  McKeen was "marketing" his cars, and selling snake oil. 

 

Just how McKeen arrived at these figures is not known, but in light of later streamlining experiments, their validity is questionable.

 

While the McKeen car body styling was ahead of its time, the mechanics were mired in internal combustion technology barely out of its stone age.  The concept was not.

"Distillate"? burning engines started with shotgun shells fired into the cylinder, and

that were reversed by reversing the rotation of the crankshaft and not by gearing?

Huh!?  Try that on your Camry!  They were notoriously hard to start in cold weather.

So the Nevada restoration has a modern diesel engine.  No surprise.  I do not know if

all of them kept running for some time, and some were, but I doubt if any of

those still had the original powertrain. Keilty in his books on gas electrics said the

mechanical drive of the Mckeen was prone to shake itself apart on the rough track of

the era.  A few other early internal combustion railcars were introduced with rounded, streamlined noses, but not quite the point of the McKeen. General Electric had such a car, and they were testing it at the same time McKeen was (1904), but they opted for electric traction motors.    GE and McKeen built their last  cars in 1917, as GE also had transmission problems.  However those were overcome by 1927, when GE was in partnership with EMC, building gas electrics, but with flat fronts.  Apparently streamlining was not found useful at those speeds. Before 1904, according to Keilty, there were direct drive internal combustion railcars running, somewhat successfully, in England, which may be where McKeen got the idea.

The reduction in HP required from the claimed 87.5 to 21.9 is remarkable: a feat of aerodynamic engineering equal to about the best ever attained.  I tend not to believe it -(Let me make it clear I am "not believing" his original claims, not the forum members who posted and have discussed this).  A lot of people marketing their ideas or products make claims, some completely legit, some puffed up, some outright lies).  Frankly I think this is close to the latter end of that spectrum but  . . . this is interesting regardless.

Originally Posted by jaygee:

Anybody have a picture of the Adams Windsplitter?????

 

1900

There are now 193,000 miles of railroad in the United States.

Inventor-author Frederick Upham Adams convinces the Baltimore & Ohio to build the Adams Windsplitter, an early streamlined train that reaches 85 miles per hour on test runs. By the turn of the 20th century, Adams has been granted several patents for streamliner designs.

Last edited by Mill City

The exact scientific documentation, behind the findings may not be quotable, but I think the working knowledge of aerodynamics by then, was common enough to not have the design be seen as being obviously effective to some degree. To what degree was still being figured out. Not "snake oil", more like a semi-educated, good hunch at least.

 

 I came across some early examples of Euro. streamlining "experiments", late 1800s 

 

 Also, this is a Heilmann 1893. I guess it a steam electric, and wind cutting was thought of here too.

  Well thought out arguments to the engines design "flaws" have some merit for high speed, and maintenance of locos, and track. Its opposed steam/electric generator design, was well balanced, and had less & lighter reciprocating steam parts to maintain. Heavier than normal steamers overall, but no hammering, and things are spread out well on the axles, its increased weight for high tractive efforts is an advantage at times. I'll be poking for more info on their fates, & reviews, but I only read English, and mostly guess at the others but German, and French do seem easiest

Not still around that I know of. But all Heilmanns I've seen so far are cab fwd, each with some kind of point, normally a low "V-plow-pilot" integrated into the body.    

 

heilmann

Attachments

Images (1)
  • heilmann
Do any of these engines still exist? 
 
Originally Posted by Adriatic:

The exact scientific documentation, behind the findings may not be quotable, but I think the working knowledge of aerodynamics by then, was common enough to not have the design be seen as being obviously effective to some degree. To what degree was still being figured out. Not "snake oil", more like a semi-educated, good hunch at least.

 

 I came across some early examples of Euro. streamlining "experiments", late 1800s 

 

 Also, this is a Heilmann 1893. I guess it a steam electric, and wind cutting was thought of here too.

  Well thought out arguments to the engines design "flaws" have some merit for high speed, and maintenance of locos, and track. Its opposed steam/electric generator design, was well balanced, and had less & lighter reciprocating steam parts to maintain. Heavier than normal steamers overall, but no hammering, and things are spread out well on the axles, its increased weight for high tractive efforts is an advantage at times. I'll be poking for more info on their fates, & reviews, but I only read English, and mostly guess at the others but German, and French do seem easiest

Not still around that I know of. But all Heilmanns I've seen so far are cab fwd, each with some kind of point, normally a low "V-plow-pilot" integrated into the body.    

 

heilmann

 

Add Reply

Post

OGR Publishing, Inc., 1310 Eastside Centre Ct, Suite 6, Mountain Home, AR 72653
800-980-OGRR (6477)
www.ogaugerr.com

×
×
×
×
Link copied to your clipboard.
×
×