Scale coil coupler

I'd love to know the answer to that as well.

 Maybe we should be looking at the Kadee type coupler that's offered in G Scale. Just downsized to O. This isn't cheap. It uses radio control and you need to buy all the hardware. Don't know how popular the are.  If we can send voltage to a coil coupler. I don't know why you can't use some sort of solenoid that would replace the coil coupler mounted out of sight to move the Kadee. They have info on their site. It basically uses a small chain to pull the coupler open. They will be at Springfield. Run it by them.

 MTH talked about one years ago that seems to have fizzled out. They know scale couplers exist as they offer all their rolling stock with mounting pads.

Or maybe Kadee could develop a hybrid coupler that's larger than their current offering but smaller than the claw that works with existing electrocouplers. This would be a good solution for those of us that have curves too tight for existing Kadee's.

MTH lists some of their HO engines with: 

(2) Scale Kadee Compatible Remotely Controlled Proto-Coupler On Locomotive.

Probably too small for O gauge, but if they can do them in HO, they should be able to do them in O gauge too, I would think? Should be twice as big and maybe easier? What am I missing? Maybe compatibility with the masses is an issue?

I have never paid any attention to these HO engines at my LHS, will try to remember to look next visit.

Atlas O makes a electromagnetic coupler.  I've seen them at P&D hobbies in Michigan. 

 If someone can come up with a Kadee type coupler. It has to be either fixed to the chassis or a bracket has to be made to adapt to the truck. To many variables as far as an installation kit. If you are handy at fabricating this isn't to hard. The coupler may not be the issue as far as getting it to work. If the mounting and fabricating is left to the operator. I wonder how many would opt for it if it wasn't a direct bolt on to their particular model.

 As far as the Atlas coil coupler. Much like their standard o scale couplers. They don't work well.

I agree, if MTH can make an H.O. operating coil coupler why can't they make one in O scale? 

Kadee will be at the Amherst train show in two weeks. I'm going to ask/suggest they think about it.  Ditto for Lionel, MTH, and Atlas.

Why don't they make one?  

1) Because they don't need to  

2) 99% of O gauge 3 rail buyers couldn't care less

3) There are already O scale couplers(Kadee) available for those that want them, and yes, if you are that insistent, then MTH makes almost all of their Premier Line pretty darn easy for you to convert not only the couplers but also change the large fanged 3 rail wheels to scale wheels also.

4)  The true "O scale" (not O gauge) market is minuscule. 

5)  There is not enough demand for MTH to do them.

6)  99.9% of 3 railers do not do operations where scale Kadee type couplers are the norm

Lionel and MTH seem to be doing just fine making everything w large 3 rail couplers. 

If there was a market for them with the ability to make money, they would have already done it in a heart beat.

Best of both worlds would be a scale Kadee style coupler that would be compatible w the typical 3 rail claw coupler.

I've been asking that question for years at the York DCS meeting.

Clem

10)  Real railroads don't have automatic couplers

I personally know two former forum members who have made them. One who runs three rail used the coils from a claw coupler. The other who models On3 used his own hand wound coils and triggered them with DCC decoders. 

Pete

Arthur P. Bloom posted:

10)  Real railroads don't have automatic couplers

Real railroads don't have to reach into the middle of the layout either.

Bluegill1 posted:

Why don't they make one?  

1) Because they don't need to  

2) 99% of O gauge 3 rail buyers couldn't care less

I think the number is higher than you realize

3) There are already O scale couplers(Kadee) available for those that want them, and yes, if you are that insistent, then MTH makes almost all of their Premier Line pretty darn easy for you to convert not only the couplers but also change the large fanged 3 rail wheels to scale wheels also.

4)  The true "O scale" (not O gauge) market is minuscule. 

Again more than you think

5)  There is not enough demand for MTH to do them.

Their short shortsightedness

6)  99.9% of 3 railers do not do operations where scale Kadee type couplers are the norm

Again your numbers are off.

Lionel and MTH seem to be doing just fine making everything w large 3 rail couplers. 

Well Lionel is the last few years have started to add kadee mounts to their high end rolling stock.  No one thought weathered engines would sell but behold they do.

If there was a market for them with the ability to make money, they would have already done it in a heart beat.

Maybe, maybe not.

Best of both worlds would be a scale Kadee style coupler that would be compatible w the typical 3 rail claw coupler.

How about a 3 rail claw coupler campatible with Kadees?

 

99.9% don't do operations because 3 rail couplers don't like to couple.  

clem k posted:

99.9% don't do operations because 3 rail couplers don't like to couple.  

You are correct for those folks in the "027 world", but here on the 3RS Forum, pretty much everyone has up-graded to Kadee couplers, and those sure do NOT have to be slammed together, in order to couple.

Have to laugh. When I returned to trains a couple of years ago, after an absence of more than 50 years, one of the things I discovered was how prickly the "claw" issue was. Whod'a thunk there were "leave my claws alone!" people?

I have yet to take the horrible things off my locomotives, but I dearly want to as their appearance is intolerable to me. I am coming to the conclusion that I'd rather have K-Ds and forego the, admittedly very nice, electro-claws. They at least allow you to drop a car, or an entire train. But picking one up? Fugedaboutit!

Anyone manufacturing an electro scale coupler will be getting money from me! I need 15 right now! When my 3-rd Rail E8s arrive later this year, I'll need another 6!

Lots of misinformation.  As always.    The best of both worlds has been around for quite a while.  The kadee 805 does work with old time couplers.  And would Lionel really go through the trouble of tooling all new rolling stock and their new 21" passenger cars with kadee mounts for less than a 1% increase in sales?  Would Lionel have announced Lion Scale for both 2 Rail and 3RS for only one percent of sales?  A smart business stays ahead of trends and plans for the future, not the past.

How right you are Hot Water thats why I converted to Kadees. Now I can actually make use of my freight yard and spot cars at industries.  

Clem

It seems forever an ephemeral number. How many K-D vs how many are "happy" with claws? Also how many "tolerate" claws but really would prefer scale couplers but are unwilling to install them, especially when cutting is required. I don't see Lionel as appreciably increasing their sales by making it easy to equip their 21 inch cars with K-Ds. People will buy them anyhow and put K-Ds on them I suppose. I certainly would!

I put K-Ds on all my GGD 21 inch cars. I would have appreciated a "K-D ready" design but my older HW cars were certainly not that!  Lionel is already moving toward making their rolling stock "K-D ready."

The more expensive, the more prototypical things become, surely the more will move to scale couplers too.

A scale O electro coupler may never happen . . . but I certainly wish for it. I don't expect it from Lionel though . . . or MTH. It will almost certainly be a third party item.

The bottom line is this- once you use a Kadee coupler and see how realistic it makes things look, the more likely you will be at converting the rest of your fleet. The scale electro-coupler is something that is definitely needed here in O scale. I for one would fit all my locomotives with these- and since mine are MTH, they already have the plugs present from the boards. Plug and go--

Fast forward to middle of this video..(5) scale 2 rail diesels all scale kadees except the last engine in which case i morphed in a mth electro coupler.  I used the previously unused 2 wire coupler connector at the ps3 board and can activate with my DCS remotes..pulls 41 cars..very rugged and trouble free.

The problem is called "Physics" !

WM1400 posted:

Atlas O makes a electromagnetic coupler.  I've seen them at P&D hobbies in Michigan. 

I think it was GRJ or someone who said the atlas did not trigger well with ps2/3...different impedance or ?

PRRronbh posted:

The problem is called "Physics" !

There are no problems, only solutions. Like I said above at least two people have done this themselves. The difference is the coil does not mount on the coupler shank but is placed inside whatever, engine or piece of rolling stock, and linked by a piece of music wire.

Pete

Norton posted:

PRRronbh posted:

The problem is called "Physics" !

There are no problems, only solutions. Like I said above at least two people have done this themselves. The difference is the coil does not mount of the coupler shank but is placed inside whatever, engine or piece of rolling stock, and linked by a piece of music wire.

Pete

Sounds like you have a 
Solution" that needs a patent. 

MTH has been working on this for years!  They had been trying to use "muscle wire." 

Ron, not my solution but I doubt its patentable. Too bad the archives are long gone but both are former forum members and one posted his solution on the 3RS forum, using a claw coil linked to a kadee. I have witnessed both and they are pretty slick. My On3 buddy actually won a blue ribbon at the national narrow gauge convention for his D&RG passenger cars with working couplers.

Pete

clem k posted:

How right you are Hot Water thats why I converted to Kadees. Now I can actually make use of my freight yard and spot cars at industries.  

Clem

Can you spot a car anywhere or do Kadee's require that you have a magnet embedded in the track to force the couplers apart?

Thanks, S

PRRronbh posted:

MTH has been working on this for years!  They had been trying to use "muscle wire." 

 According to MTH's 'Features' lists for their HO engines, they seem to have succeeded in HO. My post above was directly copied from their 'Features' list. Seems like O would be easy after you once had HO mastered? Of course, I am not the one doing it either... Many folks make things look easy around here that probably are not.

I have never paid attention to MTH's O Scale Wheel models, not sure I have ever seen one, but what kind of couplers do they come with? Regular 7xx or 8xx Kadees?

Scott T Johnson posted:

clem k posted:

How right you are Hot Water thats why I converted to Kadees. Now I can actually make use of my freight yard and spot cars at industries.  

Clem

Can you spot a car anywhere or do Kadee's require that you have a magnet embedded in the track to force the couplers apart?

Thanks, S

Laidoffsick has a video demonstrating the use of Kadees in switching operation on his youtube channel in his signature line. IIRC, I think the magnet releases the coupler and then allows you to continue backing up to spot the car without re-coupling, or something like that.

MTH already has the coil to operate a scale coupler with some sort of mechanism if they cared to go further. Obviously they don't wish to get the ridicule of posters slamming them for whatever they attempt or come up with.

 If you wish to know why the MTH scale proto coupler is dead in O, just read some of the posts here about their 2 rail engine releases. They all but abandoned going deeper into a crowd of bashers that they can't please.

 If you want scale couplers, screw them on. If you want an electro-uncoupling feature, you may have to lobby KD, who released a version in G scale that doesn't seem to have many supporters.

rtr12 posted:

PRRronbh posted:

MTH has been working on this for years!  They had been trying to use "muscle wire." 

 According to MTH's 'Features' lists for their HO engines, they seem to have succeeded in HO. My post above was directly copied from their 'Features' list. Seems like O would be easy after you once had HO mastered? Of course, I am not the one doing it either... Many folks make things look easy around here that probably are not.

I have never paid attention to MTH's O Scale Wheel models, not sure I have ever seen one, but what kind of couplers do they come with? Regular 7xx or 8xx Kadees?

Yes, MTH first developed these for HO.  But when they up-sized them to O-Gauge the function was TOO inconsistent.  Something about the larger dia.  muscle wire and current required.

I would like to get some opinions from operators before I stick my neck out and tell you about a scale coupler project that I have been toying with for a few months.

Is it the generally accepted practice to have electrically operated couplers just on locomotives and other cars that already have center rail rollers, such as a caboose?

Is the common practice to have the auto couplers on locos and not on every/most cars?

Is this because the command control receivers/decoders already have the outputs to drive an accessory such as a coil coupler?

If a freight car mounted electrical coupler were made available, that did not require conversion to truck(s) with rollers, would it sell?

I believe that I have come up with a way to do this, without a lot of mechanical fiddling.

Assuming that my understanding of the way things work and the potential market are correct, the options will be (1) couplers on any loco that's equipped with DCC or similar system, and (2) couplers on any non-powered rail car that does not have a decoder already fitted, WITHOUT HAVING TO ADD POWERED TRUCKS.

Let me know your thoughts, and I will pass them along to my design guys. We are serious about this, but don't want to spin our wheels on a product for which there would be a small demand.

Sign me up!  I'd love to replace my claws and have electo-coupler reliability.

At York last year, Andy was asked about this and he asked how many people were running Kadees. About five people, including me raised their hands. Then he asked was a scale electro-coupler important. No hands. Now, that sample may have been unscientifically small, but the underlying fact is that the bulk of the customers are using the Hi-rail engines and that's the core of the issue. The scale wheel/fixed pilot buyers are comprised of two-rail operators and hard-core 3RS, but that's a smaller segment with differing demands. The demand doesn't seem to be there. Atlas' scale electro-coupler wasn't a big success and they no longer offer them on locomotives (though you can supposedly still get them separately).

Having an electronic coupler on a switcher is OK, but even in that situation it would be nicer if you could uncouple the cars at various points. However, that's pretty much rendered moot if you use Kadee (or under-track) uncoupling magnets which allow you to uncouple anywhere on the train and push the car(s) to the appropriat spotting location. In the illustration below, each "A" is a Kadee uncoupler magnet which allows spotting a car on any of the spurs behind.

Arthur P. Bloom posted:

I would like to get some opinions from operators before I stick my neck out and tell you about a scale coupler project that I have been toying with for a few months.

Is it the generally accepted practice to have electrically operated couplers just on locomotives and other cars that already have center rail rollers, such as a caboose?

Is the common practice to have the auto couplers on locos and not on every/most cars?

Is this because the command control receivers/decoders already have the outputs to drive an accessory such as a coil coupler?

If a freight car mounted electrical coupler were made available, that did not require conversion to truck(s) with rollers, would it sell?

I believe that I have come up with a way to do this, without a lot of mechanical fiddling.

Assuming that my understanding of the way things work and the potential market are correct, the options will be (1) couplers on any loco that's equipped with DCC or similar system, and (2) couplers on any non-powered rail car that does not have a decoder already fitted, WITHOUT HAVING TO ADD POWERED TRUCKS.

Let me know your thoughts, and I will pass them along to my design guys. We are serious about this, but don't want to spin our wheels on a product for which there would be a small demand.

 

Actually in the late 40's Lionel had this!  I had a set.  And my set worked!  They called it the "Electronic" Set.

Also as I recall there was some talk of this with the MTH muscle wire couplers.  The question was the electronic to add to each car.

As I recall  there is a forum thread on the Electronic Set.

I would imagine this topic in most board rooms...Kadee, Lionel, MTH, Atlas, et al...has somebody asking the question....

And....no offense intended, but every time I hear people throwing around quantifications like "99.9% of the (crowd, population, hobby group, etc., etc., etc., blah, blah), or people refuting those claims when talking about market 'analysis'....both of whom have cited no credible studied basis for their claim....I tend to , and , and .  

The most common response I receive when approaching a manufacturer about employing a new technology (which could hardly be termed 'rocket science' in the greater scheme of things!) for the O2R/O3R market is that the market for such-and-so is "too small".  So, either they've collectively decided to use this as a 'talking point' in response to any new idea/suggestion, or there must be something to it.  

I'm inclined to believe the latter.  

But that's just MHO, of course.

KD

MTH already has a scale, muscle metal coupler sitting on the back burner.

I would love to see this come to market.  I will not hold my breath.

Dave

AGHRMatt posted:

At York last year, Andy was asked about this and he asked how many people were running Kadees. About five people, including me raised their hands. Then he asked was a scale electro-coupler important. No hands. Now, that sample may have been unscientifically small, but the underlying fact is that the bulk of the customers are using the Hi-rail engines and that's the core of the issue. The scale wheel/fixed pilot buyers are comprised of two-rail operators and hard-core 3RS, but that's a smaller segment with differing demands. The demand doesn't seem to be there. Atlas' scale electro-coupler wasn't a big success and they no longer offer them on locomotives (though you can supposedly still get them separately).

Having an electronic coupler on a switcher is OK, but even in that situation it would be nicer if you could uncouple the cars at various points. However, that's pretty much rendered moot if you use Kadee (or under-track) uncoupling magnets which allow you to uncouple anywhere on the train and push the car(s) to the appropriat spotting location. In the illustration below, each "A" is a Kadee uncoupler magnet which allows spotting a car on any of the spurs behind.

Thanks Matt. This is the best answer I've seen so far. If there was any demand for a scale electro coupler that suppliers felt was profitable my opinion is that they could pretty easily develop one.