Walthers O scale Milwaukee Road 1947 Hiawatha for Santiago, Atlas, & GGD

A good thread on the Hiawatha cars out there. 

A review of these units can be found here for those interested in this topic:

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...a-a-set-studio-shots

I've considered Weaver's aluminum beaver tail set, but I'm not sold on those... perhaps someone has something to say about those?

We must be on the same wavelength today, Santiago.  Been comparing my Weaver ribbed Hiawatha cars to pics in Scribbin's book this morning.  My Weaver history is not the best, so I can't comment if they made a smooth sided Beaver Tail set, or if variations exist due to yearly upgrades. 

Knowing your love of extremely accurate detail, the ribbed set leaves a lot to be desired.  Firstly, if you can imagine 20" versions of Lionel PW aluminum cars, then you get the general idea of how primitive their construction is.  Solid plastic, non-operating , full diaphragms with smaller rubber ones added just ain't right.  Throwing out the rubber and close coupling would help.,but of course, flexible full diaphragms would be ideal.  My cars have no interiors and sport green frosted windows with 3 incandescent bulbs each....another upgrade needed.  The trucks seem accurate in design but they aren't sprung.  Fast angle wheels have axles riding in bronze bushings.  These cars represent the ribbed types without skirts ( first issue ) but don't seem to sit offensively high on the trucks.  The separately applied fish belly undercarriage looks ...um..separately applied and lacking detail.   All representations of handrails are molded in plastic with many not even present.  The separately applied finned beaver tail ( add on plastic? ) has cast in bolsters between the horizontal fins, not present on the real observation.  Oddly, the 2 rear windows are extremely recessed on the model, probably to add strength in this area.  Instead of etched metal " Hiawatha" scroll nameplates, they used decals.

With your skill, all the issues could be corrected....whether it's worth the effort is up to you.

Bruce

Bruce, thanks for sharing. Gee that's a lot of work. I love the beaver tail, albeit not nearly as much as the skytop, but such a weird over the top design!

I liked the K-Line cars, but thought the colors wrong.  Had the Skytop end been brass, I might have captured a set to go with a future Erie-Built in sand cast, or a 2-railed die cast Bipolar.

OK all you guys. I have a Skytop. How in the world do you paint the flimsy window section and with what?

Thanks

Dick

You are supposed to mask and airbrush. Also don't forget to prime.

Ok. I have been at a house in Kentucky with no internet for a week. What paint would you sue, in what sequence, etc? I like ScaleCoat II.

Thanks all.

Dick

White, then yellow, then maroon.  I know nothing about the new Scale Coat.  I do need some.

White first is critical when painting yellows.

But what shades, he asks?

Dick

Reviving this old thread to ask a question about the Walthers Hiawatha kits.  It appears that the Walthers cars represent 80-foot length cars, other than the head end cars.  But the prototype cars were 85 feet in length.  So, is it true that the Walthers cars are short of scale length?  I know that “shorty” passenger cars used to be quite common in O scale, and the Walthers cars would be just a little too short.

I believe that the Golden Gate Depot and K-line Hiawatha cars are 85-foot scale length cars.

Well since this thread was started, GGD has done two phenomenal runs of the Hiawatha. I bought a super dome and extra coach from the second run and they're gorgeous cars.

@Will Ebbert posted:

Well since this thread was started, GGD has done two phenomenal runs of the Hiawatha. I bought a super dome and extra coach from the second run and they're gorgeous cars.

Yes.  The GGD cars are very nice.  That was a big deficiency with the Walthers Hiawatha cars:  no Super Dome.  Also, they were not scale length, unlike the GGD cars.

I bought the Skytop years ago but I wonder if anyone has tried to make a 3D copy of it.

Dick

I have  done a lot of research , and had a lot of scale drawing's ( from the Milwaukee Road Shops) via the Milwaukee library.  ( where the archive were donated) ,   On the cars built pre war and up until 43/44, do any of you have drawings  of post war cars?  ( that were not made by the toy companies ? )

@Jtrain posted:

Yes.  The GGD cars are very nice.  That was a big deficiency with the Walthers Hiawatha cars:  no Super Dome.  Also, they were not scale length, unlike the GGD cars.

All my Walthers HI kits are spot on for prototype lengths depending on car.

Folks....because of our updated copyright policies due to the "problem" we had a few years ago, most of the prototype pictures in this thread were deleted many of which plainly had the copyright logo on them.  Those that didn't and did not and we didn't have ownership/permission info in the thread were part of those that got deleted.  I know you all will understand and we appreciate that!

At the risk of having this question deleted to oblivion...for which I'm truly sorry...

Alan...

I've re-read the Terms of Service (TOS) re the posting of copyrighted material...in this case photos.  (I seem to be guilty of tripping over this issue from time to time, also.)

I have a lot of trouble determining whether a photo appearing in a search is copyrighted or not.  I apparently do not know how to delve beyond the image itself if the 'copyright' isn't emblazoned somewhere on, above, below, in phantom, etc., etc., on the primary image.  So much a problem that I've given up trying to figure it out.

OTOH, I seem to recall in prior discussions...somewhere...that the acceptable alternative is to post a link to the picture.  Is that correct?

If not, please advise how we can acceptably provide a path to referenced photos/verbage/whatever.

Also, I tried to use the forum's 'Search' to find earlier reviews of this troublesome issue...including acceptable remedies...to no avail.

I guess being an old phart doesn't always result in lasting memory for the caveats and conveniences of this cyber-infested world...especially the litigious pitfalls therein.

Again...apologies for deviating from this post's main topic.

Frustrated and now retiring in hopes of a better day tomorrow, I am...

KD

@dkdkrd posted:

…Also, I tried to use the forum's 'Search' to find earlier reviews of this troublesome issue...including acceptable remedies...to no avail...

Maybe this will help (located in Featured Topics):
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...3#153603996933650173

@Training Wheels posted:

Maybe this will help (located in Featured Topics):
https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/...3#153603996933650173

Thanks!  It does, indeed.  Don't know why I couldn't find it on 'Search'.

Gotta remember: Link it....Link it...Link it...

Today is already better...weather forecast to be ideal for an August day.

And Dad...the guy who got me into this hobby 75+ years ago...would've celebrated another birthday today.   I may have to run his 366W set in his memory.

KD

Having just found this thread and read the whole thing, I am going to say that I am perfectly satisfied with my K-Line 21" "DELL RAPIDS" that I have not yet gotten around to two-railing yet; and I do have the K-Line two-rail replacement trucks to do so quite easily. I have no plans to replace this car as I like it too much. The only possible exception might have been if Sunset/Third Rail had offered one as a separate-sale item especially if another car name was used.

Unfortunately, the only photo of it that I have is as the tail car on this rather silly mixed train:

You folks do not realize how much we in S would love anything close to that Skytop observation.😭🥴

Ray

@Erik C Lindgren posted:

All my Walthers HI kits are spot on for prototype lengths depending on car.

Are we sure about that?  It seems that someone posted engineering drawings that showed some prototype cars being 85 feet long, including the Skytop observation, like the K-line and GGD cars.  But the Walthers kits are all 80 scale feet or less, right?

I can’t seem to find those drawings.  Maybe it was in another forum.

@OGR CEO-PUBLISHER posted:

Folks....because of our updated copyright policies due to the "problem" we had a few years ago, most of the prototype pictures in this thread were deleted many of which plainly had the copyright logo on them.  Those that didn't and did not and we didn't have ownership/permission info in the thread were part of those that got deleted.  I know you all will understand and we appreciate that!

Understand!

Yeah, This was an oldie, 2015. Thanks boss for keeping this place up. Lots of work. -Erik

@Erik C Lindgren posted:

Understand!

Yeah, This was an oldie, 2015. Thanks boss for keeping this place up. Lots of work. -Erik

Thank you Erik....I appreciate you!

@Jtrain posted:

Are we sure about that?  It seems that someone posted engineering drawings that showed some prototype cars being 85 feet long, including the Skytop observation, like the K-line and GGD cars.  But the Walthers kits are all 80 scale feet or less, right?

I can’t seem to find those drawings.  Maybe it was in another forum.

Please stop trying to spread misinformation online. These kits are not 5 feet short of prototype in 1/48 or whatever you think they are. Preposterous, I've built over 40 of these kits over the years for clients. John Kiel was a mastermind tool die maker and modeler. He would not shave off 5' off a car kit for the sake of fitting in a box so to speak as was so common with the likes of MTH. I have seen including in the annals of OGR magazine, modelers that intentionally "shortened" these kits for use on 3 rail toy train layouts but NO, and no, these kits include the full scale drawings in the box for reference while in construction. I used to upgrade them with brass PSC details and consider them an extremely fine model, built right they are contest room quality. Where you heard this misinformation baffles me, I've never heard of it of before now, not since 1994 when I started building these, buying them, aquired parts from John Kiel, and meddling with the community that is so devoted to these fine kits, dumb.

A short video produced by my friend James Schultz whom has built some of the finest samples of these kits including contest winning cars recently. He so well demonstrates a Walthers 1971-1972 Hi kit built up with a GGD Hi car of same Nystrom prototype. Enjoy 🙂 Thanks James! 👍

I happen to have 2 unbuilt Walther's 80 foot Hiawatha Coach kits.  Presumably one is a Lunch/Lounge the other is Baggage/Dorm/Tavern (well that's what is written on the boxes). The roof section measures 20 1/8 inches, the base 19 3/4 and the metal sides 18 1/2 inches long. The cast ends would add 3/16 to overall length. So my guess will be the cars will end up slightly less than 19  inches  - not including coupler nor diaphragm. Both appear to be original, unmodified in the box.

Following is an image of the "full engineering drawings".  I am going to assume these plans were intended to be freely shared. Second the plan dates to 1/5/1944 which should be outside the normal 75 year rights and third I think this falls under fair use. However if the drawing disappears - I would presume there are still some copyright concern attached to the original instructions. To be honest, for me these plans are not worth much except they say to mount the metal ends to the wooden base and roof. The metal sides are to be soldered into place. I suppose that fits with my next comment, soldering the side panel in would certainly ruin any paint job.

I was rather disappointed when I received the cars as they were completely unfinished, no paint which would indicate a Hiawatha. So there will be research needed to figure out color, stripe sizes, interior configuration, etc.  The fabric diaphragms  appear to be in good shape. If anyone wants to see the parts I can post a couple of images - but not really much to see. If any one has the detailed plans or where to get a copy please let me know.  Here goes:

I will be in search of 2 pair of trucks (apologies I am a high rail guy). I will also attempt to mount the base so it will be removable by tapping the die cast metal ends. Regarding the difference in top and bottom length, I think the top needs to be tapered to meet the cast portion smoothly evening out the length issue, but the metal sides remain 1 1/4 short. Time and research will tell - maybe Erik has an insight. 

@Erik C Lindgren posted:

Please stop trying to spread misinformation online. These kits are not 5 feet short of prototype in 1/48 or whatever you think they are. Preposterous, I've built over 40 of these kits over the years for clients. John Kiel was a mastermind tool die maker and modeler. He would not shave off 5' off a car kit for the sake of fitting in a box so to speak as was so common with the likes of MTH. I have seen including in the annals of OGR magazine, modelers that intentionally "shortened" these kits for use on 3 rail toy train layouts but NO, and no, these kits include the full scale drawings in the box for reference while in construction. I used to upgrade them with brass PSC details and consider them an extremely fine model, built right they are contest room quality. Where you heard this misinformation baffles me, I've never heard of it of before now, not since 1994 when I started building these, buying them, aquired parts from John Kiel, and meddling with the community that is so devoted to these fine kits, dumb.

No need to make it personal.  This is supposed to be a friendly discussion and exchange of information and ideas.  We are talking about models that have not been made for MANY years by a company that no longer makes these types of models.  It is not “misinformation” and it is not about what I “think” or what you “think,” and is especially not about you thinking that what someone else posted is “dumb.”  Can we please just be civil and stick to the facts?  If I want to read confrontational posts like this, I will go over to Twitter/X, or whatever it is called now.  This forum doesn’t need to be like that.  By the way, see the post ^.

@Jtrain posted:

No need to make it personal.  This is supposed to be a friendly discussion and exchange of information and ideas.  We are talking about models that have not been made for MANY years by a company that no longer makes these types of models.  It is not “misinformation” and it is not about what I “think” or what you “think,” and is especially not about you thinking that what someone else posted is “dumb.”  Can we please just be civil and stick to the facts?  If I want to read confrontational posts like this, I will go over to Twitter/X, or whatever it is called now.  This forum doesn’t need to be like that.  By the way, see the post ^.

👍 OK 👌... this IS about opinion, and assertions of a man's personal opinion. And it is misinformation about something, if its made 50 years ago or not that is irrelevant, misinformation is misinformation. Sorry I hurt your feelings. 😕 bummer. I too come here to enjoy the hobby. Once in a blue moon I find it necessary to protect my opinion especially when it's backed with facts. It's hard to prove facts here since copyright policies prevent sourcing from others materials. Again, I am so sorry I hurt your feelings. You blew back on me "Are we sure about that?" So I did "made-sure" about that sir. Have a great day and the "dumb" was about the situation,  not you at all, this is dumb we need to argue about something like this. 😊

Video used with permission from James Schultz

@ScoutingDad posted:

I happen to have 2 unbuilt Walther's 80 foot Hiawatha Coach kits.  Presumably one is a Lunch/Lounge the other is Baggage/Dorm/Tavern (well that's what is written on the boxes). The roof section measures 20 1/8 inches, the base 19 3/4 and the metal sides 18 1/2 inches long. The cast ends would add 3/16 to overall length. So my guess will be the cars will end up slightly less than 19  inches  - not including coupler nor diaphragm. Both appear to be original, unmodified in the box.

Following is an image of the "full engineering drawings".  I am going to assume these plans were intended to be freely shared. Second the plan dates to 1/5/1944 which should be outside the normal 75 year rights and third I think this falls under fair use. However if the drawing disappears - I would presume there are still some copyright concern attached to the original instructions. To be honest, for me these plans are not worth much except they say to mount the metal ends to the wooden base and roof. The metal sides are to be soldered into place. I suppose that fits with my next comment, soldering the side panel in would certainly ruin any paint job.

I was rather disappointed when I received the cars as they were completely unfinished, no paint which would indicate a Hiawatha. So there will be research needed to figure out color, stripe sizes, interior configuration, etc.  The fabric diaphragms  appear to be in good shape. If anyone wants to see the parts I can post a couple of images - but not really much to see. If any one has the detailed plans or where to get a copy please let me know.  Here goes:

I will be in search of 2 pair of trucks (apologies I am a high rail guy). I will also attempt to mount the base so it will be removable by tapping the die cast metal ends. Regarding the difference in top and bottom length, I think the top needs to be tapered to meet the cast portion smoothly evening out the length issue, but the metal sides remain 1 1/4 short. Time and research will tell - maybe Erik has an insight.

Reading those simple instructions was very entertaining.    Oddly, the trucks pivot from the rear, presumably so they don't hit the skirts.  

These seem to be generic instructions from older unpainted kits.  Look at Erik's original post.  There are detailed kit-specific instructions shown in his pictures.  And the sides are painted.  

I haven't yet pulled the trigger to buy any of the kits.  The most daunting task seems to be painting the skytop lounge.  I can imaging masking the windows and airbrushing the orange, but how in the world do you get those nice black window gaskets?

Bob

@Jtrain posted:

Are we sure about that?  It seems that someone posted engineering drawings that showed some prototype cars being 85 feet long, including the Skytop observation, like the K-line and GGD cars.  But the Walthers kits are all 80 scale feet or less, right?

I can’t seem to find those drawings.  Maybe it was in another forum.

Negative to the 80'.  There were "other" cars produced in the 1940's (I think) that were short.  The subject matter here is the cars Walthers produced in the 1970's.  Here is a car side from the 1970's series cars.  If you add the ends, you'll be at 85'.

@Erik C Lindgren posted:

Santiago -

Hope these will help you.

I was hot on the trail to build up an ultimate HI when I lived in Iowa. Ordered the Key Model Imports E6 #15 A/A models and managed to gather 14 of the Twin Cities HI cars offered from Walthers in 1971 and 1972.

The Walthers kits are wonderful; truly some of the best passenger car kits ever produced in 1/48. Without doubt state of the art in 1971 when John Kiel and folks worked up the tooling and molds.


The cars come with the metal sides and roof painted and pad printed. If you plan to leave them in delivery scheme it's great.

I have built at least 2 sets of these cars. I upgraded with PSC brass detail where possible and installed all the piping. Drawings are provided for routing the piping and placement of all underbody equipment. The Kiel Line parts are PSC quality, in some ways better. I'm sure he did some of PSC's investment casting work. John will be missed he was a pioneer and amazing modeler. I owe him a debt of gratitude for his work and will always look at him as a O scale master. Thank you John


Express Cars are fantastic I and can be painted in Streamliner for use on those UP trains!


RPO Mail car is used on certain HI consists. I believe Morning Westbound.


Chair cars and Parlors are beautiful when built.


Dining and Lounge Tap cars are perfect.


The Olympian Hiawatha kits are just as nice and often grey roof cars were mixed in both consists.


A partially built floor showing the full sill detail. Use of wood is rough 50% of the build.


Skytop cars are a treat.
Photo courtesy: (c) Kalmbach Publishing by Wallace Abbey 1950
Railway Classics "Super Dome" inspiration for the correct design



Number #15 four days old (c) Alfred Johnson Kalmbach Publishing


#15 1947 Jim Scribbins (c) Kalmbach Publishing
Edward Kruschke (c) Kalmbach publishing
1948 repaint on #15 by Richard Cook (c) Kalmbach Publishing
The Walthers Nystrom High Speed trucks do wear out rather quickly. John Kiel offered us the blister packed examples in this photo with brass bushings installed.


An excellent article in 48/ft O SCALE NEWS back in 1998.

I have 8 of the cars. What I want is someone the print the Skytop plastic end in 3D.

Dick