Williams/Samhongsa N&W 611?

Bob -    I once had several noisy Williams/Samhongsa  locomotives (K4s, L1s) years ago and by replacing the factory motors with a similarly sized Pittman the noise issue went away.  Most of my O scale steam power have 25:1 gearbox ratios.  With relatively low drivers and a 1:42 ratio gearbox whatever motor you have in a N&W J will have to turn at rather high RPM's to provide passenger train top end speeds. I can't answer your question about drop in parts but suggest you contact Northwest Short Line as they offer quite an array of gearboxes and drive train components.

Ed Rappe

Thanks Ed!

I tried a motor I had laying around, but it wouldn't run any faster than maybe 20mph.  It made no noise, but I wasn't getting much noise at that speed anyway.

After I posted here I did email NWSL and am waiting to hear back from them.

This Williams "J" is nice.  It's a heavy thing (32oz of lead in the front, I weighed it!)  It runs well (other than the noise), looks great, and is easy to work on (don't ask how many times I've had it apart since I got it ).  There is some bubbling of the clear coat on the front end, but it's a separate piece which could easily be repainted.  The PS2 electronics is an easy fit, just need to do something about putting markers in those bullet-shaped lamps!

Did you try it with the original motor and no flywheel?  My J was incredibly noisy until I removed the flywheel.  If you decide to use a Pittman, you will have to get a 7 1/2 volt 8000-series to even approach the speed of that Chinese windshield wiper motor. I really do like my Williams "J" - a fine model.

Bob's post reminds me of something.  The  flywheels on my Williams/Samhongsa locomotives were out of balance by virtue of the flywheels using a deep inset set screw - making the mass of the flywheel off.  With high RPM's came vibration.  I tested this by holding the motor (with flywheel) in my hands running at 12v.  I wanted to retain the flywheel and my fix was to replace the set screw with a long brass one cut flush (then slotted) with the outside diameter of the flywheel.  I again did the hand held test and the vibration was virtually gone. It was an eye opener to me at the time that something as small as the difference in the length of a set screw could result in that much vibration at high RPM.

Ed Rappe

Bob, Ed, I haven't tried it w/o the flywheel but I'll do that tonight.

How is the end of the universal joint fixed into the flywheel, is it super glued or tight fit?  I would need something to go between what's left of the universal when I take the flywheel off.  I have a 3rd Rail universal but I don't think they're the same size (will check again).

I forget, but just use a hose temporarily.  That U- joint is probably superfluous.

I give up!

I tried the tubing, took off the universal and found a piece of tubing that fit.

Of course, can't do it under command control, need the flywheel.  But I ran it anyway just to see.  As soon as I scrolled the thumbwheel it ramps up to full speed, there's not enough time to actually hear if the noise has been reduced or not.

So I try it conventionally, couldn't get it to move at all.  Tried it using my old Z750, same thing!!!  I put everything back together and called it a night, must be doing something wrong for it not to work conventionally, just can't figure it out.

NWSL sez to use their mod 0.5 gearbox, but I'd have to pull the gear on the shaft and use their gear so things will mate.  A new gearbox, coupling, flywheel is approx. $75, but the tools (wheel puller, wheel press, wheel quarter) needed to do the job cost upwards of $250 and they're out of stock on the quarter.

I can live with the noise for now and if I keep it below 35mph all is good anyway.

Frustration talking more than anything, I'm sure I'll have it back apart (the screws will be worn out if it takes much longer).  Good thing is I'm getting better/faster doing it   I made a V-shaped foam cradle to hold the engine upside down while I remove the 3 screws holding the boiler, then the 7 screws need to remove the gearbox.  Plus I think I've gained some muscle from lifting this beast on/off the layout and workbench   Who sez model train guys aren't "Manly" men?!?!?!

I use the Mod 0.6 gearbox when I need a new one, and I will quickly replace the USH gearbox.  But this Williams gearbox, big as it is, is bulletproof and not noisy.  Try again, by disconnecting the wires to the motor and installing a bridge rectifier so you can run it directly on AC.  Or borrow a DC transformer and wire the motor to the wheels and rollers.

You guys are stuck with AC for absolutely no reason other than nostalgia - your motors are DC, and almost all electronics is DC.  We 2-railers have one rectifier at the transformer; you have to have one in each locomotive.

Preaching to the choir on AC/DC Bob, makes you wonder what we are thinking.

The only DC power supply I had I recently gave to my son so he could revive his N scale trains.  I did get a rectifier with the Atlas turntable I got the same day as the J so I'll give that a shot.

Still don't know why I couldn't run it in conventional, probably pilot error but I haven't run anything conventional (for long) in over a year.  need to re-read "The Book"!

I managed to finally try it with a piece of tubing, there's definitely vibration caused by the flywheel and universal.  I had been emailing NWSL and Dave Rygmyr guided me as to what items I needed.  Hopefully I'll have this thing running true next weekend.

I ordered a new flywheel and the parts for a universal.  If the universal still gives me too much vibration I'll get some of the Toyota tubing.  The black tubing I used was flexible, but it was the only tubing I had that fit snug on the shafts.  I had to put a brass sleeve on it to keep it from twisting/noodling.

The 42:1 Samhongsa gearbox gives nice slow speed, that's twice the ratio of the gearboxes in their 2-8-2 and 4-6-2 models (21:1), I wonder why they are different?

Bob you may want to consider swapping gearboxes, putting the 42:1 in your freight 2-8-2 and the 22-1 in the passenger J.  Years ago I made a similar swap between Williams B6 0-6-0 and a Williams L1 - improving the performance of both.  However if you do swap gearboxes you'll need to get a new PS2 tachometer tape for the flywheel to equate rpm with scale mph.

All Williams/Samhongsa flywheels are inherently out of balance due to the long bored set screw hole on one side of the flywheel.  At moderate rpm it's not a problem but at very high rpm it will cause vibration.   Your J's combination of an out of balance  flywheel and a 42:1 gearbox is a prescription for vibration and noise.  Fixing one (or both) should give you the performance you want.  The flywheel fix is very easy - by filling the hole with with a replacement brass set screw cut to the outside diameter you can rebalance the flywheel - cheap, easy to do, and doesn't require a new black/white tachometer tape.

I like bob2's  tubing approach to minimize drive train noise from couplings - but it does not address flywheel induced vibration.  With your MTH PS2 electronics getting rid of the flywheel isn't an option.  

Ed Rappe

Ed, I had thought about that although the 2-8-2 has pretty good low speed already.  For some reason the 2-8-2 runs a bit smoother than the 4-6-2 but that could be a linkage issue I haven't addressed yet or could be driver diameter difference.

I keep forgetting about needing the tach tape

I'll see what these NWSL parts do and then go from there.

The J sure looks good pulling my newly acquired Weaver cars:

They take up about a 1/4th of my mainline though, I can just imagine what they'd look like (if 2-rail) on your layout!

My recommendation was without flywheel.  If you keep the brass flywheel, you have to balance it.  Ed's idea is good, but spin it up and make sure it is dead smooth.  I do not think the Williams U joint was much of a noise culprit.

I have little experience with PS-2, but converted my MTH Hudson to Lobaugh drivers and NWSL gears.  I was able to retain four chuffs by whiting out every third black stripe with white paint - at least that is the ratio I remember.  The optical pickup counts stripes, and doesn't care how wide they are.

I wonder if the motor mount could be causing some of the vibration?  It's nothing more than a 1/16" thick L-shaped bracket, no thrust support.  Here's 3 photos I sent NWSL so they could help me figure out what parts I needed:

The L-shaped bracket is the black thing (along with a gasket) between the brass tach holder and the motor, it goes down then under the motor.  You can also see there's maybe 5 degrees of angle between the motor shaft and the gearbox.

Bob,

Those Weaver cars look wonderful!!! Great layout too!!

I forgot about the Weaver cars - yes, that is the solution for the folks who want an inexpensive Powhatan Arrow while waiting for Lionel to put steam in the whistle, cylinder cocks, and blowdowns.

I will have to look at mine again - any setup like that is going to be problematic.  I may have moved my motor forward.  The flywheel needs to be as close as possible to the motor bearing, or be isolated with bearings on both sides.  The Toyota tube is then used to couple shafts that are only 1/8" separated.  Noiseless, and way, way better than U joints unless you are experiencing excursions more than ten degrees or so.

Many of my articulated models have a 20 degree change of angle from motor to rear drive shaft.  The Toyota hose never fails, so long as the axes coincide in the middle of the bend, and the driven worm shaft is long.

Thanks Gerry, they arrived in great shape.  As heavy as they are the J had no problems with them around the layout.  The layout is in need of some skirting to hide all that junk underneath.  Now that I'm more or less done with buying trains for a while I plan on going around the layout and working on each business/area/location to add more detail.

Bob, I didn't think about it but that is quite a gap between motor and gearbox, a little whittling on the round underside of the boiler opening and the motor could be brought closer I would think.

I want to remove the end of the universal from the flywheel, but so far I haven't figured out how, don't know if it's glued in or press fit.  If I can get it out then I can reuse the existing flywheel and Toyota tubing.  Less moving parts the better.

Well, balance the flywheel and simply put it back together.  It might be almost noiseless that way.  Use Ed's method, or simply drill and tap a diagonally opposite set screw hole.

You get an out- of-balance flywheel shaking and it could tear your model apart.  A noisy U joint is nothing compared to that.

Thanks Bob, if the NWSL parts don't work I'll rethink this.

  Right now I'm working on a solution to putting Kadee couplers and new trucks on the Weaver N&W aluminum cars I recently bought.  I didn't think the trucks looked quite right on them and when I measured them I found they were 7'-0" vice 8'-6" trucks.  I had a pair of K-Line (2-rail) trucks and tried them to see what they looked like.  They fit fine but I had to design a new floor (acrylic sheet) and Kadee coupler mounts (brass sheet) which also doubles as something to keep the ends in place and secures the new floor.  My design makes it so I don't have to alter any original parts and can put things back if I ever choose to (can't imagine why other than to sell them off).

This new floor permits me to install interiors, I'll also remove the silhouette strips and replace them with clear plastic strips.

I know these cars aren't prototypically correct, but they sure look good ride good on the longer K-line trucks.

This is going to take time, I have all the parts to do the conversions, but buying interiors components and people to populate the cars takes time and $$$.

On a side note, I had to go 20+ miles out to a RC plane hobby shop to get the brass and clear plastic I needed today (the local train LHSs were closed today).   DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS!!!  I could have spent all day in there looking around (I was in RC back in the 70s).  I got the urge to build a WWI biplane after seeing a few kits in there.  PLANES ARE COOL

I think MTH made correct trucks for this type car.  I use a mixture of sand cast and Kemtron trucks under mine, with three sets of Wasatch trucks thrown in for good measure.  Correct length of truck is one of my big deals - it would have been so easy . . .

I managed to put one of the NWSL flywheels on without it slipping.  The only tubing I could find was Vacu-tite 47417 Hard Emission Tubing.  Appears to be 3mm ID and 5mm OD (the package says 1/8" OD), it snugly fit onto the 1/8" motor shaft and the 3mm gearbox shaft, I haven't noticed any slipping.  When I asked for #0 Toyota tubing I got blank looks at the 3 places I went.

I powered the engine up and didn't notice any "noodling" of the tubing and the noise has reduced.  I pulled 4 cars around after putting the boiler back on and all seemed well, even had it up to 60mph!

Ed's comment about flywheel balance rings quite true. I recently changed the drive connections for a Sunset P5 boxcab from tubing to solid brass couplings between the gearbox shafts. These couplings are approx. 5/16" in diameter and 3/4" long with two set screws. I mounted them in plane with the set screws lined up for ease of maintenance. The driveline wound up creating vibration because of the tiny amount of missing brass in the screw holes. Once I rotated one of the couplings 180° on the shaft, the vibration disappeared. Who knew?

Chris, good to hear and I agree with Ed and you.  The missing bit of brass from that hole has got to be less than 1 gram, like you said, who knew.

I also want to state that I sent an email to NWSL this morning to apologize for the blistering email I sent them when I received my parts.  I finally got my head "out of that dark place" and figured out how to make the universal parts work.

I also used the NWSL flywheel.  I tried to balance the OEM flywheel, but I think the setscrew/hole is still making too much vibration.

The verdict is still out on whether or not using the NWSL parts reduced the noise more than using the Vacu-tite hard tubing, but right now I'm happy and will run the engine using the NWSL parts for a while to see how it performs.

In the olden days O Scale locomotives used standard automotive vacuum line for connections.  It was satisfactory.

A friend in Phoenix gave me a piece of the Toyota hose.  It was superior by an order of magnitude.  It is very expensive (relatively speaking) and available at Toyota dealership parts departments.  There are two lengths, and the longer one is cheaper.

I pull perfectly good brass U joints out of USH locomotives and replace them with this hose.  I use it when power has to make a bend, like with an angled motor in an articulated.  If I absolutely need a U- joint, like with a tender drive steamer, I isolate the U- joint from the motor with a short hunk of hose.

you obviously discovered shaft loctite before I could answer.

Bob, I just ran the engine again and I do believe it was quieter with the piece of Vacu-tite hose than the NWSL universal parts.  Time to go to the nearest Toyota dealer!