Hey everyone. Admittedly a first time user of this site. I have a 1950's Lionel set from my father that I wanted to get going under our x-mas tree for my 3-year old. The Santa Fe locomotive lights up and hmms when I increase the throttle, but it doesn't move.
I removed the rear drive unit and WD40'd it, but the gears still do not turn over.
Anyway to test if the motor is still good?
Replies sorted oldest to newest
What number is on the cab? 2243?
Rob
there should be a lever underneath try pushing it to the other direction as it may be locked in nuetral
Yes it's a 2243.
The wheels easily spun once I unscrewed the unit from the cab, but not when it was remounted.
You are saying that the wheels turn until you reattach the cab body? Any pinched wires?
I removed the single screw from the wheel unit. Once I pulled the wheel unit off of the the cab, the wheels easily spun. There's a small gear shaft that is coming out of the cab that is not turning, so I'm assuming that's the issue.
Could we see some pictures? The wheels shouldn't be turning freely, if they are you have a stripped gear somewhere in the power truck. Pictures of the assembly would help us help you however.
I am confused whee you say a gear is sticking out of the cab? Don't you mean the motor?
thanks for your help btw. i could be just getting the naming incorrect.
here are 3 pictures.
picture 1: wheel unit attached to cab, wheels do not spin
picture 2: wheel unit removed from cab, wheels pin
picture 3: what I called a gear shaft
It is NORMAL for this type drive, vertical motor, to not allow the wheels to be driven by hand when assembled. I think right now, you have an E unit issue or the motor needs brushes/service work.
Rob
You need to get the cab off and take a peek. It won't be hard from there, get some inside pics and everyone here will get you going. There's only one screw to do it. I can see it in the pic. Careful taking the shell off. Once the screw is out lift the nose just a bit, then slide shell forwards. Look at bottom rear of shell. You'll see the tabs where it needs to slide off from. If you just pull up you'll break them off.
This is the same motor they used in the PW Geeps. E.I. 2328 burlington, 2338 MR. You said the worm gear on the motor wont turn by hand? On top of the motor are 2 slotted screws. Take them out and pull the brushplate off the top. The 2 brushes should fall out. They mite be stuck to the top of the armature called the commutator. They might be jammed in the brushwell also. Now see if the worm gear will turn by hand. The commutator should be shiny. The brushes should move freely in the brushwells. Make sure the brush springs aren't weak ,broken or burnt. There are 3 slots (segments) in the commutator. Make sure they aren't clogged up. The worm gear should now turn freely. Shine up the commutator and clean out the 3 slots. Clean out the brushwells. Put a drop or 2 of oil on the gears on the truck. Put a dab of grease on the wormgear. Use vaseline in a pinch. Better than nothing. Alotta folks use Red N tacky. Thats what I use also. My Geeps and Texas special all turn the motor by hand using the wheels. Good luck.... bob
.
The original poster describes that he has a motor with a frozen armature.
Before commenting on the motor, I have to comment on WD-40.
Normally I would recommend that the WD-40 not be used on trains.
It is not a proper lubricant, it can make a mess, and damage the finish on toy trains.
I have run across frozen motor trucks and frozen armatures many times.
The cause is typically old, dried out lubricant.
This is the one time a little shot of WD-40 can help solve the problem
WD-40 will soften or dissolve most dried out lubricants.
I would put a very small amount of WD-40 On the upper and lower bearing.
(The bottom one may require more)
Give it a few minutes to work, and then try to turn the armature by the head (part with the coils).
Use only your fingers, not a tool that could slip and damage the windings.
There are many other products besides WD-40 that can be used for this.
Whatever you use, keep it away from any painted or plastic parts.
If this works, then the motor should be disassembled, cleaned, and properly lubricated.
The power truck should be cleaned and lubricated too.
I would use clean, dry rags to wipe away as much of the WD-40 from the already sprayed truck as possible.
thanks everyone. a lot of good feedback. going to give it a try in a little bit and will report back.
per the wd-40, i hear you. i was pretty careful with it.
To test the motor - you need two small test leads with alligator clips. Connect one motor brush to one end of the field coil. Connect the other motor brush to the other end of the field coil with the second lead. Apply power to the leads. If motor runs, it is good. Reverse the power to the motor to test in opposite direction. Penetrating oil, a little bit, can clean the gummed lubricant. Lubricate the power truck and grease the worm gear prior to assembly. Use proper lubricants. Good luck.
To test the motor - you need two small test leads with alligator clips. Connect one motor brush to one end of the field coil. Connect the other motor brush to the other end of the field coil with the second lead. Apply power to the leads. If motor runs, it is good. Reverse the power to the motor to test in opposite direction. Penetrating oil, a little bit, can clean the gummed lubricant. Lubricate the power truck and grease the worm gear prior to assembly. Use proper lubricants. Good luck
Maybe I am reading this incorrectly. I think you would need four test wires for this. Two to connect the brush holders to the field, and two to apply power. This would place the field coil and armature in parallel. Lionel motors are supposed to be wired with the field coil and armature in series.
I suppose the motor would run if the e-unit was in neutral, or was disconnected from the motor.
If the e-unit was still connected, and in a "run" position, you might or might not get a short.
By the way, don't apply any power to the motor until the armature will turn fairly freely with the motor truck removed.
Quick morning update.
@oldtimer your feedback worked. I removed the top two screws, some lubricant and a little twist on the armature with some pliers and i was able to get it to spin easily. (first picture)
I put the train back on the trains without the cab on and it still won't run. still lights up.
I think I may have messed up on putting the motor cap back on. I don't remember how the two brushwells go back on. do they go underneath or on top? (second pitcture)
To test for shorts use 2 leads from a transformer. Take the lead from the U terminal and clip it to the worm gear on the end. Apply a "little" power and touch the other lead to each one of the segments. If theres a spark then that segment is shorted. New brushes are app. .350"/11/32" or 9mm in length, which ever u prefer. If they are half that then Id replace them. Part # 622-121. Clean out the little slots at the end of each brush that the spring rides in. Take a q-tip with a little acetone (fingernail polish remover) and clean out the brush wells. Put a few drops of oil in the oil wick thats located next to where the armature shaft protrudes out of the brush holder. C.W. U are right bout being in series. PW motors are near bullet proof. This Santa Fe will be running like new in no time. "keep on keeping on" bob
You can put them in either way The springs go in the little slot on the ends. I usually put them in underneath and hold the motor upside down so the brushes dont fall out. Dang spring will break sometimes comming in from the top.
so good news, got the bad boy to run.
it won't always start on demand. sometimes i need to turn on and off the power a few times, sometimes put it in reverse and it goes and other times it just starts.
It's running decently with two cars, at 5 it wouldn't move.
Wondering if the track needs to be cleaned up ( i was looking around some other threads).
Here's the controller just in case. thanks again, pretty pumped, so was the kid.
That power supply does not have the oomph to do the job. It's only about 18 watts and was really designed for can motored locos. I bought one in the 70's to run my post war American Flyer and sent it back. Your Lionel F-3 needs more power than my AF did.
A nice Lionel post war transformer of at least 75 watts will do the job nicely.
U can get a PW 1033 on evil-bay pretty cheap. Has 90 watts. B perfect. Glad you got it running.............
bob
awesome, i'll do that.
mr. t posted:Here's the controller just in case. thanks again, pretty pumped, so was the kid...
That transformer, while designed for use with Lionel trains, is only 40 watts output and was marketed in the 1970's when MPC trains didn't require quite the amount of power needed by the typical postwar set. The 2243 will run fabulously with a 80 watt Lionel CW-80 or 75 watt MYH Z-750. Use the MRC for accessories and/or lighting.
The 2243 santa fe, made in '55 thru '57 most likely came with the 1033, 90watt transformer. That would make everything PW correct. Happy railroading. Hope your son enjoys it. ...........
bob
The label on the power supply looks like it says 16VA, which is roughly equivalent to 16 watts. It's amazing to me that they would make such a wimpy supply and claim it can be used for O-27 trains.
RoyBoy posted:The label on the power supply looks like it says 16VA...
Looks like 40VA to me.
Label 40va /label 18v = 2.1 amps. Problem is, this Pullmor motor requires about 2.5 amps to run at max effort (sliding wheels on track), maybe a tad more. Then the E-unit needs a bit more, plus two headlights. Then its voltage range is 12 to 14 volts, plus say 2 volts for various resistances in the circuit to and from the motor. So 16v, which is the top voltage on a 1033. At the output of 16v, the output watts would be about 40w then, for the motor.
I did run a 2-motor1950 Alco on a 1033-90w, The loop was a hand-made (from 0-27 rail) 0-72 loop with 8-foot straights. I was able to pull 31 cars with no problem. (The second motor was a wired addition, so 1 E-unit.) These motors have a different pivot but are otherwise quite similar in performance.
Your E-unit sounds a little balky. The best care is to operate it a bit. Getting oil into it is bad in the long run--follow CW Burfle's advice on the WD40--I don't think getting that on an E-unit is a good idea because it is so hard to get it off. Avoid tweaking the E-unit with pliers.
There are 2 two sets of ball bearings above and below a longish sleeve bearing above the worm. Sometimes there is an oil hole on the side of the shaft bearing but probably not on yours. Instead, try to work oil into this area from its lower end using the slight endplay in the shaft. Avoid taking the clips, washers and bearings off because it is easy to loose, break or mis-assemble them. Avoid too much oil to keep it off the windings above and out of the greased worm area below.
With a little care, these motors generally work forever. --Frank
In addition to the 1033, you might look at 1044 and 4090 (MPC) transformers. They are all very similar, 90 watt transformers.
You have been given good advice about the transformers. The no-start, however, could be from another problem.
You are already aware of the possibility of dirty track and wheels causing problems. But if the engine's lights are on at normal brightness, and the engine isn't humming when it doesn't move, it is probably a commutation problem; i.e., re-clean the commutator and brushes. BTW, did you ever put the brush springs back in the slots on top of the brushes?
Dave
Looking at the pics of the motor you posted, is the spring loaded retainer wire end still extending over the location for the brushes? Maybe it is just the angle of the pic, but I do not see the retainer end over/into the brushes hole location, necessary to apply correct tension and retention of the brushes.
Jesse
brushes were inserted with the springs in the slot.
The fact that you have to kind of "fiddle" with the transformer to get this engine going, and that its operation is sporadic, makes me think that there is some interruption in the continuity of current to this engine.
I am looking at some of your photos, and I don't see a ground spring which fits between the engine frame and the motor truck. See diagram attached: http://www.olsenstoy.com/2243a.htm.
That ground spring is crucial to proper operation of this engine.
Hope this helps.
It looked to me like it needed a shine on the 3 armature plates with very fine wet dry sandpaper. And brush any gunk of black dust in the gap between the plates. Clean the gaps with a tooth brush, drag a toothpick or needle SOFTLY through the gaps, or use a stiff paint brush or similar. That end of the armature shaft should only ever get the tiniest drop of lube as it will migrate to the plates and collect brush dust quickly, which can affect performance. If you are the type to clean and maintain often then you can get nuts with the oil. But dry it will tend to fly off more. Mind any small washers on the shafts get put back on too..
Clean the roller hole by spinning & the WD40 then oil it. Oil the roller arm pivots, And clean the wheels with alcohol..
On a "powertruck" never force the wormgear drive to spin by the wheels.
Oh a Q tip wetted with alcohol will clean those brush tube walls. Rub brushes clean with a rag or paper towel and dress them flat and straight if needed.
New ones are dirt cheap and will give you more pressure being taller, and a glimpse at new so you always know what to expect from now on.
I very slightly bend the brass brush tube tab so I can pass the brush spring through it, and as long as it lands in a brush slot in doesn't matter. It allows me to use a toothpick, jewelers screwdriver, or head of a hat pin to reach into the brush hole, lift the spring out the gap, and insert the brush topside, as my last step before running.
All that was explained before I think. Check continuity between the segments on the commutator.. Might have an "open" circuit. All three segments should show continuity.
bob
The best way to check continuity is with a multimeter. In case you don't have one theres an ez way to check using the leads from your transformer. Take the wire leads off the lock-on for the track. Take off the brushplate and brushes exposing the commutator. There are 3 segments separated by slots. Make sure the slots are clean and free of any dirt/grime. You might wanna polish up the 3 segments.. I use an ink eraser. Pointed end of an old test light to clean the slots. Power up the transformer. Put a lead on any one of the segments. Touch the other lead to each of the other 2 segments. There should be a SPARK each time. That shows continuity. Also check for a short between the armature shaft and the commutator. Touch one lead from transformer the bottom shaft of armature. Touch other lead to each of the segments. There should be NO SPARK. That shows there no short. Check that all out and let us know what u find. regards
bob
so good news, got the bad boy to run.
it won't always start on demand. sometimes i need to turn on and off the power a few times, sometimes put it in reverse and it goes and other times it just starts.
Lot of post to digest but you seem to have a handle on things.
Another thing to consider . ; )
E-unit cycles the motor FNR -forward neutral reverse.
It could be sticking.
With only engine on track and turning on and off e-unit should cycle each time if not then it can be rebuilt or useing some plastic safe contact cleaner spray at the little fingers that rest on the drum inside.
Sometimes this will free things up that have gummed up over the years.
Once you have a powerful enough transformer that should help as well.
ADCX Rob posted:RoyBoy posted:The label on the power supply looks like it says 16VA...
Looks like 40VA to me.
You are correct.
Access to this requires an OGR Forum Supporting Membership
