2 railing a 3 rail engine

I've seen it posted here countless times that the amount of work required is not worth it.  Especially if you could just sell the 3r at a loss and buy the 2R version somewhere else.

 

But I haven't attempted it personally, so let's see what the seasoned veterans have to say...

Truthfully, there are too many variables.  A lot of it depends on the model and how it's built.

 

Jay

Yeap!

Generally speaking, diesels are easier to convert than steamers.   

 

And along with that single motor mechanisms with gear boxes assembled onto the axles are easier than dual motor diesels, especially those with solid block trucks.    If the trucks have removable plates on the bottom so the axles can be removed it is much much easier.

 

There are some machinists who will do the conversion work also if have favorites.   

As noted - it depends and there are variables that specific each engine and/or drive system(s).  It ranges to swapping out wheelsets to significant machinist effort.

 

There is a good level of experience in residence here. Suggest that you consider posting a short list of those specific engines that you would really want to convert to see which have or not been converted by folks here to gauge feasibility.

+1!

 

This man speaks the truth. 

Not a smart move, you will loose more money than what you bought your 3rail stuff for.

Joe @ Baldwin Machine 410.591.5275 has done scores of these 3/2 conversions.  His work is meticulous. Joe is one of the finest machinist you will find.

This is a hobby.  Any serious thought as to how to recover financially needs to be re-examined.

 

So, if you enjoy tinkering, 2-railing is an enjoyable pastime.  I have done dozens, and I taught my brother how to make driver tires, and we did dozens more for fun and an attempt at profit.

 

If you do not enjoy tinkering, maybe 2-rail is not for you.  There are lots of things that go wrong - short-circuits that will drive you nuts, couplers that need to be adjusted, etc.  The track is way better looking in 2- rail, and once you get it all figured out, 2-rail runs as well as 3-rail.

 

There are plenty of 2- rail ready to run models out there, and they are not all that expensive.  Good luck, whichever way you go.

I should add...

Joe F did my Allegheny and he does fantastic work!

 Yes diesels with removable bottoms on the trucks are the simplest to do. I did so many that I started getting lazy and looking for RTR. Whenever I can't find a particular model in 2 rail, I convert a 3 rail one over. I just did three last month that had been sitting in line for almost a year. Of course, right afterwards, the same models came up for sale in two rail. 

 

about losing money, you loose money the minute you get into toy trains. You gain pleasure. How deep you go is up to you. I like to enjoy my RRs. They don't have to be perfect. They have to look right and run great.

 I just got a MTH CR SD80MAC on order from the catalog in three rail and tore it apart the first night. They didn't offer it RTR in 2 rail. It's here to run. I run two rail. I don't care if someone thinks it lost value. It looks priceless to me.

 

Yes, folks that worry about losing money in toy trains should probably look into getting a hobby.......like model RR'ing.

 

But in any case, for the OP there are a lot of real and useful options and there are folks here with real experience you can tap as resources. Joe @ Baldwin Machine is a superior source of knowledge, experience, and an all around good egg.

 

There are also a lot of opinions - go with the experience, and have fun pursuing your objectives.

TrainNut,

 

I am currently converting two Lionel sample models of the C&O H-7 2-8-8-2 from 3 rail to 2 rail.  These models came unpainted and the die casting in these models is fantastic.  Many of the add on details are lost wax brass castings.  The first loco is finished and runs like a clock.  I am not sure if any importer ever made a model of the C&O H-7 so if a modeler wanted one to run on a 2 rail layout conversion may be his only option.

 

I have converted many models to 2 rail, (mostly steam and electric loco models) since MTH started producing 2 rail versions of their premier line of diesel locos.

 

As stated above, your other option is to sell your 3 rail locos and purchase 2 rail models.  A couple of years ago, I converted over twenty locos to 2 rail for a modeler who had a 3 rail scale layout and could not live with the 3 rail track.  I did approximately one loco per month.  When he could find a 2 rail version of a model he had, he sold the 3 rail loco in his collection.

 

He converted all of his passenger and freight cars himself and rebuilt his 3 rail railroad into a two rail layout during the period that I was converting the locomotives.

 

He seems to be very happy with his model railroad now.

 

Joe Foehrkolb

 

 

We should add that Joe is very good at what he does.  I have a converted Lionel here that he just finished, and it looks and runs like a dream.  It is only powered on one truck - you want to avoid converting one-truck Diesels.  But Joe will tell you that.

 

The real deal is that Joe is good enough and fast enough that he can do this stuff for about half what I would charge.  I still have one set of Williams T1 drivers in 2-rail, and nobody can afford them.  We did about 20 of them for Vince Waterman.

And now and then you can get lucky.

 

I switched from 3 rail to 2 rail a few years ago. Sold about two dozen engines. BUT, I have two 3 rail Sunset UP Mikes that I really didn't want to sell and wanted to convert to 2 rail.

 

 Wa La!  I got lucky at O Scale West by knowing a gent that many of you know who was at Sunset for a long time.  He had complete 2 rail driver sets, pilot and trailing truck wheel sets and even the drawbar and pin  stashed away from his days at Sunset.  Gave me a fair deal. So, it is practical in some instances.

 

But, having said that.  I remain glad that I mostly just bit the bullet and sold a couple of dozen 3 rail engines and got on with life. Never looked back.  Wish I had done it sooner.

All I can say is it was a very tough decision for me. It took me about a year to fully make the choice. I guess I can't say I never looked back because sometimes I wondered if I did the right thing but I just couldn't stand the look of 3 rail track. However, I did save a few 3 rail locomotives and some rolling stock to run on friends 3 rail layouts and I still have all my Lionel Postwar.

 

Like Bill above, I sold most of my 3 rail locomotives but some I had converted. It all depends on what is available and for how much. For instance, about ten years ago I picked up a Lionel Atlantic for $240 and since it only has two sets of drivers it was feasible to convert. On the other hand (I'm on a budget) even if I got a good deal on a 2nd hand Challenger or a Big Boy it would cost more or just as much to convert (adding in the original cost of the locomotive) than to just a buy a new one.

 

Hey, ya gotta do what ever makes you happy. I'm sure you've read about the pros and cons of 2 rail on various parts of this forum so I won't repeat them here.

 

Good luck and keep us posted.

One thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned is using rechargeable battery power. That would eliminate the problem of shorts. The engines could actually run without ANY track. There are several topics about it here on this forum. Search RC Battery Power. Just another option.

 

Bob Delbridge (nice guy) who posts here could give you some insight on the process. He has battery powered his stuff and is ripping the center rail out of his 3 rail track!

 

Simon

Simon,

 

What you say is partially true.  However,  if a modeler wants to run his train on a 2 rail scale track system, the 3 rail wheels with their large flanges and oversize width must be replaced or machined to a 2 rail scale profile or the locos will not go through scale switches without derailing.  For most steam (and electric locos with quill drivers like the GG-1)  this requires the use of a good metal lathe.  Finding replacement scale drivers is not impossible but matching them up with the original model's crankpins, axles etc may be more difficult than just machining the original driver centers to accept scale tires.

 

Most diesels can be converted by using NWSL scale wheel sets insulated for 2 rail operation.  In the case of battery power, insulation would not be necessary but I am not a big proponent of battery power at this time.

 

Joe Foehrkolb

Joe is correct. I wasn't in the mood to write a book, which is why I suggested researching other posts on the subject (battery power).

 

If I were doing it, I would sell the 3 rail and buy 2 rail stuff, unless it was an engine I absolutely loved.

 

I do think RC battery power is the way to go, and it is only going to get better.

 

If realism is your goal, I would definitely go 2 rail.

 

And yes, Joe does nice work!

 

Simon

I went the route of selling the 3 rail and buying the 2 rail versions of what I wanted. I've seen the results of Joe's work on other people's 3 to 2 rail conversions and they are great. 

Out of curiosity has anyone converted one of the newer Lionel Legacy ES44's diesel locomotives?  I was looking at them a bit and think they are just a bit nicer than the MTH version.  Also some slight differences in terms of phase, seems to be a little bit later version, but still not 100% 

 

Granted I don't think they are using the same boards in O Scale that they do in S Scale as it seemed like those had DCC out of the box?  Whereas you would have to gut the O scale versions.  However, the whole pilot thing seems better also with Lionel less gap to fill,etc..    Wheelset replacement seems doable with maybe NWSL replacements?

 

Anyway this thread got me thinking...  

One more time on 2-railing Diesels with only one truck powered.  Do not do it.  The unit I have with a huge piece of lead over the powered truck still won't pull anything.  It is powerful enough to slip, and very smooth with a string of lightweight plastic cars, but do not try four Scale Craft cars . . .

Welcome to 2R!

 

I made the the leap from 3R to 2R P:48 earlier this year and used Jay C for wheel/driver conversions (redone the motors/drive too - I'm building a switching layout and 0-5 SMPH is critical for me).  I'm VERY happy with both the switch to 2R and Jay's conversions (yeah, that's a plug, because he's too gracious to mention it himself).  Most conversions were done on 2R engines, but Jay did convert a 3R Sunset N&W 4-8-0 Mollie - it runs like a Swiss watch (as well it should - I'm sold on the Swiss Faulhaber motors) and the P:48 flanges which he machined are beautiful.

 

Wish I would have made the move to 2R P:48 earlier - should not have dropped so much $$$ on that middle rail.  I still have a bunch of 3R locos - no interest in converting them as they are not worth it (and do not fit my modeling era).  Will sell them off piecemeal or keep them for the grandkids.

 

As to rolling stock, have done all the conversions myself - it's great practice to hone my dormant modeling skills (was out of the hobby for 30+ years).  Ended up buying a cheap yard goat (25 ton GE) from Rich Yoder at Indy a couple of weeks ago.  It started life as On30 and Jay walked me thru the conversion over the phone - easy to re-gauge the wheelsets - I milled a new brass base plate under the chassis.  I envision scratch building a brass loco at some point.  The modeling aspect of the hobby is becoming a very enjoyable part of the hobby.  Will need to learn a lot more matching skills, and will eventually get a lathe.

 

I encourage you to make the switch - but, at the end of the day you have to make the decision yourself and be happy with it.  _Why_ are you considering making the jump to 2R - tired of the middle rail, want to do more modeling yourself, want to get into older brass, etc?

 

If you're reluctant, try it out by starting small - either convert your favorite engine or just buy a 2R version, lay down some track and run it.  After watching it glide along that correct 2R track, you'll judge as to whether you made the right decision - if you decide to stick with 3R, at least you'll know the answer.

 

Good luck, and most of all, have fun.

 

...gregg

 

 

Hi trainnut 56

     Check out this Scale 2 rail layout from my You Tube Channel, may give you some ideas.

Gary

• Cheers from The Detroit and Mackinac Railway

Why all the fuss about "short circuits that'll drive you nuts"..?? Why is this always raised as an "issue" for 2-rail O Scale??  Modellers worldwide manage to work in 2-rail in smaller scales than O without going nuts over short circuits!! Unless you simply can't comprehend the principle of 12v DC wiring, I've never seen "short circuits" given as a reason to "not" model in any other scale - or even in O here in the UK, where 3-rail is a very small minority interest indeed, & 2-rail is a booming market.
I have converted a few items of rolling stock from 3- to 2-rail, but wouldn't bother with locos; just sell the 3-rail, which shouldn't be a problem in the USA, & buy 2-rail, which, it seems, might be, as it's such a small minority interest....

I think Trainnut56 still chewing this amount of information I guess.

AG.

 

 

Yep, lots to ponder.  Not wise to rush into it.....I speak from experience.

 

The whole 2R has shorting issues is baloney!  Sure, it can happen but most of the myth comes from 3R folks that continue to pass along horror stories they heard from a guy that knew a guy related to a guy that heard about it from a guy that read it on a 3R post somewhere.

 

Oh yeah, thanks for the kind words Gregg L.  Your 3R to 2R (P48) 2-8-0 is coming along but I'm dumping the original drive and going with the Faulhaber.  Just finished a Yoder S-12 and a USH UP 2-10-2.

 

Jay

No problem with short circuits here, either. When I converted to 2 rail I kept hearing that I was going to encounter all kinds of nightmares about wiring, track laying, trains falling off the tracks and other BS. That hasn't really been my experience.

After switching from 3 to 2 rail my experience is that 2 rail is simpler, more reliable and more precise.  Especially when it comes to much simpler wiring and to the beauty of seeing trains smoothly glide through real world looking switches.  And no more traction tires to replace. I'm glad I switched.  Wish I had done it years sooner.  And I'll never go back to 3 rail.  But, to each his/her own.  It's a big, inclusive hobby with room for all.  Main thing is to enjoy whatever floats yer boat. 

 

 

 

dont forget the old "reverse loop is harder to wire" myth.

I know there may be some, but I don't run into too many folks who want to convert to 3 rail operation once they have 2 rail equipment and a railroad to run their models on.  It seems there is a growing trend toward 2 rail and that may be upsetting to dedicated 3 rail scale modelers.  It shouldn't be...they have made a decision to accept the 3 rail track system and I have a seen a few very nice model railroads using 3 rail track.  Whatever makes you happy.

 

When I was 10 years old and my Lionel Scout gave out, I switched to 2 rail American Flyer S Gauge and then onto HO in high school and 2 rail O in 1972,

 

Joe Foehrkolb

Austin Bill,

 

I'm also 2 rail,as a matter of fact I've got the yard planning complete. Not as easy doing some of the other areas,but that's the fun of model railroading!

 

I just received my 1st 2rail diesel,an Atlas GP15 Chessie #1508. It runs great-well TOO great. Using any power supply,it runs about 100 miles per hour.LOL Think I'm missing something that I'm doing or not doing to get it slowed down. I tried it on DC then on variable DC which slowed it down slightly but that tripped the circuit breaker.

Have you or anyone else experienced similar problems with Atlas products?

 

Thank you,

Al Hummel

Al, unfortunately the GP15 has the so called "China Drive". Mine runs about the same as yours. I tried wiring the motors in series and that did make some improvement but I will go back to parallel wiring if I ever put PS3 in it. The majority of 2 railers dislike the China Drives for the exact reasons you state: Poor slow speed performance. I used to hate China Drives too but I've made my peace with them. What I dislike is the gear ratios used. It's been said here many times that a better gear ratio would improve slow speed performance. I am not sure and I thought I heard rumors that Atlas was going to switch to a different ratio but I don't know if that ever happened. Certainly the GP15 would not have a different gear ratio since it is an older model. 

 

 

Yep.  As for handing correct polarity for reverse loops and turntables I use a Tony's PSX-AR microprocessor controlled reverser.  Does add a component.  But, works automatically and flawlessly and is a snap to install.  Easy. Simple.  Bullet proof power switching and protection. 

 

quote:

My GP is completely out of control,don't even have to crack the throttle-it just takes off!! Will DCC slow the engine motors down enough to make it worth the cost? Really nice diesel shell but I don't know how Atlas ever got away with this?

Thanks,

Al

That doesn't sound right at all. It shouldn't rocket off as soon as you open the throttle. Either there's something wrong with the loco, or more likely, something wrong with the power pack.

 

 

I do have the occasional short circuit.  The original Wasatch UP passenger trucks have a glitch.  Some of the early PSC Pullman and Harriman passenger trucks also have a glitch. A Lobaugh truck with a bent bolster will short.  I have seen driver brake beam shorts on just about everything, and once in a while a side rod will touch an insulated rim, or a lead truck will touch a cylinder block.  And the PSC CB&Q Hudson had tender trucks with shorts that I simply refused to tackle for any price.

 

This is not a problem for plastic models, so no wonder HO doesn't have short circuit problems.  And if you run metal wheels on your freight cars, go with the plastic box Kadees.  I pestered them for two decades, then somebody else got them to produce the metal coupler/plastic box couplers.  Hope that guy gets them to do O Scale trucks some day.

 

Please do not repeat this post - it is copyrighted.  Opinion.

I agree something's not right. The seller gave me a Lionel power pack & whether with that or my HO Tech 2 MRC,the result is the same.  If all Atlas GP15s were this way,they'd have had a massive recall. Being new to O Scale 2 rail,I've been told way back the China Drives were not as slow as HO diesels,but this is ridiculous. I was sent 3 rail terminal joiners-could there be a problem there? Sorry,to ask such stupid questions,but this is my 1st O Guage 2 rail diesel & it's NOT a good way to start out.I got a chance to bid on a CSX GP15-do I let it go or take a chance this other GP15 will perform as designed. Maybe I'd better ship it to Atlas & let them have a look see?

Confused.

 

Al Hummel

So shorting issues are mainly confined to steam locos riding on curves too tight? HO & N model steam locos don't have plastic wheels or valve gear, but metal like O Scale; they don't seem to suffer like that. Still seems like a problem with the models rather than a problem with 2-Rail as an operating system. Certainly not a problem with diesels.

I use metal Kadee boxes on my rolling stock, on 36" radius curves at that. The trucks & wheels don't get close to them, and I fail to see how they'd short out anyway if they did?

Metal draft gear boxes are better than plastic in my opinion as they won't compress when tightly mounted to the underframe. Plastic boxes sometimes get squeezed and restrict or jam the free movement of the coupler.

Sunday Shunter,

 

There is a problem with Bob's trains and it is a people problem.

????  *confused*

Some would tell you Bob's problem is more of an "Operator" issue.  I didn't say it, I just shared what others MIGHT say.

 

Now the most I know about 3R is how to spell it but, isn't a Lionel transformer AC?  Your model, just like most HO & N Scale models, runs on DC unless they are DCC or such equipped.  Does your loco have a decoder installed?  If so, they can be set for DC operation but, typically, they won't do anything until the voltage reaches a certain point.  This point can cause a loco to take off way too fast.

 

Jay

 

I assume you're using the DC output of your HO power pack.  If so, and the loco takes off way too fast, can you slow it down once it starts moving.

Tanks too all for the great info.  I will get an inexpensive loco and track and see what is what.  The 3rd rail is working on me, do not know why all of a sudden it just is and the 2 rail and scenery is just to great to not try.  Cheers Jim 

  

Sunday Shunter,

 

Sorry, it was a joke and nothing bad. You are engaging in a conversation with a person, Bob, who removes or won't put brake shoes on his engines due to the potential for short circuits. I do believe he has trouble with these things is what I am saying. I'm not saying that Bob's way of doing it is right or wrong.

 

It is just an indication of the person you are reasoning with about short circuits.

Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the explanation, no worries

 

In Britain the 2-rail steam scene is dominated by brass, kit-built locos; all types from tanks to 4-6-2 & 2-10-0 (the biggest wheel arrangement used in the UK), they must get around the brake gear 'issue' somehow as the models are fantastically detailed, often with full brake rigging, and due to the Exhibition culture here, many locos actually built will also be run regularly on layouts on show; they are not just display case queens. They do tend to use fairly generous radius curves though; 6ft radius is an accepted minimum, although this is also driven by the use of hook-&-shackle couplers with buffers, which don't tolerate really sharp curves like buckeyes can.

I don't model steam so can't comment further about that.

I can't resist putting in a plug for BPRC:

 

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...need-a-new-sub-forum

 

Jim, I didn't want to spend the money converting 3-rail wheels to 2-rail so I converted (still spent a good sum of $$$) the electronics from PS2 to Battery-Powered, Remote Control (BPRC).

 

I removed the center pickup rollers, along with the center rail.  Kept the hi-rail wheels and old 3-rail code 250 outer rails.  The system I installed came from Tony Walsham, owner of RCS in Australia.

 

I currently have no sound in any of my 7 steamers and I don't miss anything but the steam chuff (never really used the whistle/bell all that much).

 

Here's a YouTube video of my MTH RK 0-6-0, converted to BPRC:

 

https://ogrforum.ogaugerr.com/t...imperial-0-6-0-video

 

I've been running BPRC 5 months now.

 

All depends on how you want it

Here's some photos of my Williams brass USRA 4-6-2.  All the engine has in it is the can motor, headlight LED, and connector plug for the cable harness so I didn't remove the boiler.  2 wires are used for the motor and 2 wires are used for the LED.

 

I'm adding a backup light to the tender so I had to remove the shell anyway and thought I'd snap a few pix:

 

1st is the transmitter:

 

Next is a view showing the 2200 Mah LiPo battery, the receiver on the right, and the on/off/charging jack on the left.

 

 

Next is the on/off/charging jack from above, under the "coal" load:

 

 

Here's my "coal" load, made from a piece of foam rubber:

 

 

And bottom of "coal" load hollowed out for the switch:

 

 

While I have it apart I'm going to "clean it up", paint some of the white styrene things and dress the wiring.  I used a MTH 10-pin cable but I'm only using 4 of the wires.  The backup LED will go into 2 terminals on the receiver.

The original cable on the engine was a 4-pin and I could have just as easily used that.

 

(I need to make a better coal load!)

Not a "people problem" when a Wasatch truck shorts - it is a manufacturing problem, and easily cured.  Ditto the PSC passenger car trucks - you simply have to find the offending piece of metal and move it.

 

Those of you who have never had a short circuit in 2-rail - I greatly admire you.  You remind me of my aviator friends who have never left a master switch on.  You have no need for circuit breakers.  I have them on both ends.

 

To Allan's jumpy start problem - I sold a very, very expensive locomotive to a guy in Texas.  I guaranteed it.  He wanted brake shoes, and I said i would install them, and it would leave here running, but the guarantee would not be part of the deal.

 

So he opted to keep the guarantee - sent it back three times.  Each time I could not duplicate the "jumpy start", but just assumed my definition of smooth start was not his definition.

 

Turns out he was using a Lionel transformer with a rectifier.  It would go from zero volts to eight volts.  Nothing in between.  That is probably what is happening.

 

Please, please, please do not re- print this post.  Please.  Reading it once is probably more than enough.

Bob, I'm pretty sure it was you (or Joe?) who warned me about the lead truck on my Allegheny conversion shorting out and it did. I ended up changing them to a smaller wheel. Never shorted again. If I didn't mention it, I'm not sure anyone would notice the smaller size.

Three possible cures for lead trucks.  I typically will inlay a small piece of plastic at the contact point.  Another way is to grind some material out - not a truly satisfactory way for a scale model.  And if the smaller wheels bother you, plastic wheelsets can be used.

 

Fortunately, the Allegheny has that outside bearing truck - nobody will notice the smaller wheelset.  How did you handle the tail beam?

 

Also, when you roll your own, you may find the rear driver of the front engine contacting something.  It is difficult to catch, but easy to fix.