Altoona Mirror PRR 1361 Article

MarkStrittmatter posted:

...At least there is a small flicker at the end of the dark tunnel for this locomotive.

A very small flicker.

Sadly, this project has been a textbook example of how not to manage a steam locomotive restoration.

I agree 100% Rich.

I think this is the third round for the rebuild process so maybe this time will be the charm.

One can only hope !!!!!!!!!!!

Thanks for the title upgrade.

I understand quite a few bucks have already been sunk in to the project with not much to show for it.  What bothers me is that there has never been a full accounting of money spent and parts repaired. Several years ago they were talking about thin spots in the boiler and not repairable. Said a new boiler wasn't feasible but since then several engines have received new boilers.  So what gives Altoona ??   Are you going to keep shaming Pennsylvania ??

The article seemed to be an honest assessment of what lies ahead.

Here is the link:

http://www.altoonamirror.com/p...etail/id/642174.html

Mark, thanks for pointing it out.

Tom

I tried my link, but see that others may need to subscribe.

One key line from Mike Reindl the pipefitter Mark mentioned above is:

Still at some point, the project will need an infusion of money, certified specialists working by contract and a professional project manager.

Tom

OGR Webmaster posted:

MarkStrittmatter posted:

...At least there is a small flicker at the end of the dark tunnel for this locomotive.

A very small flicker.

Sadly, this project has been a textbook example of how not to manage a steam locomotive restoration.

Yes, its a government project. Until this locomotive is under the private sector, the restoration will be a long and lengthy ordeal.

Most all the equipment at the Altoona Railroad Museum are in a very sad state. The good news is its has been saved from being scrapped.

The building has been well restored. and the addition of the "metal barn" has been an improvement. I believe some of the K4 parts are on display inside a glass case in the museum.

I hope that there will be a "phase 2" that will start restoring the passenger cars and outdoor equipment including the K4.  But that money, and where it comes from, has yet to be seen.

MNCW posted:

...Still at some point, the project will need an infusion of money, certified specialists working by contract and a professional project manager...

They have already had that - TWICE!  With absolutely nothing to show for it.

Given the track record of this so-called "project" there would have to be a total house-cleaning of former managers and administrators before anyone in their right mind would donate money to this locomotive restoration.

As I've said before with this project and another on-going East Coast steam restoration project - 

Bring it home, put it back together, make it look pretty and be done with it. No need to make it run, build new boilers,etc. Just make it look good and be done. 

I agree with Rich. There is something rotten in Altoona-a definite stench.  Money has been  thrown around and they couldn't even put the thing together as a display piece. And there are no hard questions asked, no desire for an inquiry or investigation. The State  AG investigate-oh wait !  she is going on trial this  week. 

Without going political or partisan political, the Commonwealth of PA is in debt for millions of public debt and unlikely to fund any restoration any time soon.

Other than a private corporate funding or very rich benefactor, the sins of the past are exactly that. 

The only step I would love to see is an unbiased third party with heavy steam locomotive rebuilding (Strasburg RR or others) give a detailed estimate for operating restoration to an equally disinterested third party so that no "collusion" on the actual needs and costs could be made. 

That part would be interesting but like any estimate it costs money and the results of it can have financial gain for other parties.   Thus keeping it "honest" would be a priority.

A big part of the problem is that for unknown reasons(I can only guess)  people in positions of power and influence don't want the facts, the truth, full transparency and let the true story get out. Nine years to finish that so-called roundhouse stall !!  I have a very old, hand made tin cup that a tin ware collector was drooling over, there is an embossed PRR logo on the side, I would like it to go somewhere to be appreciated. Not Altoona.

Kelly Anderson, a regular poster on this site, was probably the person who put an end to 1361's restoration when he reported on the actual condition of the boiler. I hope he can report on what went wrong, if he is free to do so.  As I recall from writings on the problem when it first surfaced, the PRR had allowed little or no material in the boiler sheets for wastage. With the current FRA requirement, and with the technology available today, actual sheet thickness are measured and used to calculate the maximum pressure.  On 1361 this left the maximum boiler pressure below what was needed for the locomotive adequately preform with a main line train. The UT readings on the boiler either were not done until well into the restoration, or the significance of the readings were not understood.   

David Johnston posted:

Kelly Anderson, a regular poster on this site, was probably the person who put an end to 1361's restoration when he reported on the actual condition of the boiler. I hope he can report on what went wrong, if he is free to do so.  As I recall from writings on the problem when it first surfaced, the PRR had allowed little or no material in the boiler sheets for wastage. With the current FRA requirement, and with the technology available today, actual sheet thickness are measured and used to calculate the maximum pressure.  On 1361 this left the maximum boiler pressure below what was needed for the locomotive adequately preform with a main line train. The UT readings on the boiler either were not done until well into the restoration, or the significance of the readings were not understood.   

Not exactly. Remember that the PRR K4 design/build was prior to 1920, and thus the design factor of "4" was not used/required way back then (can't remember for sure, but might have been '3' or '3.5' safety factor). Since there is no way for the current boiler to comply with current FRA Form 4 boiler regulations, there are generally speaking only three choices for 1361 to be made operational & compliant:

1) Reduce the maximum working boiler pressure to fall within the safety factor of "4" as the boiler/firebox is presently designed/constructed.

2) Repair/replace the complete firebox/roof sheet with acceptable thickness steel and PROPER staybolt spacing for a design safety factor of "4" for a maximum working boiler pressure of 205.

3) Have a complete new boiler manufactured to comply with current FRA regulations.

Of course there is always the most logical "4th choice", which is to cosmetically "restore" 1361, and display it IN DOORS!

Yes, its a government project. Until this locomotive is under the private sector, the restoration will be a long and lengthy ordeal.

Really?  What government?  My understanding is that this project is and has been under the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum.

According to Wikipedia, in 2007 the museum's board fired the management (under Scott Cessna as Executive Director) and appointed the Salone Marketing Group to run the museum.

Incompetence and mismanagement can be found in private sector operations.  What has happened with 1361 is one example. 

For insight into some of the problems at the Railroaders Memorial Museum, here's an article written by Scott Cessna in 2005 (two years before he and his team were fired): http://www.rypn.org/rypn_files...601altoona/index.htm

"Really?  What government?  My understanding is that this project is and has been under the Altoona Railroaders Memorial Museum."

Funds are generated through the Historical preservation society so who owns it?

Yes Salone Management group has been appointed to manage it... they do not own it...

"Museums they are reliant on funding from a municipal, county or state, or federal governmental agency"

Rule292 posted:

Without going political or partisan political, the Commonwealth of PA is in debt for millions of public debt and unlikely to fund any restoration any time soon.

There is nothing "political or partisan" about this. The state of PA is not involved in this at all.

The two failed restoration attempts were privately funded. However, the people involved were more concerned about preserving the "historical fabric" of the locomotive than complying with the FRA boiler regs in place today. That led to hand-wringing over the construction of a new firebox because that would "...destroy the historical fabric..." of the locomotive. New steel, you see. We can't do that!

Install a modern air brake system? Oh the horror! We can't do that, either! It will "...destroy the historical..." 

You get the picture.

If the Fort Wayne RR Historical Society had taken the same approach with the restoration of the 765, it would still be sitting under the pigeons in Lawton Park in downtown Fort Wayne having never turned a wheel.

Who is the Salone Marketing Group ??

jim pastorius posted:

Who is the Salone Marketing Group ??

If you Google "Salone Management Group", you'll come up with an article that shows "Salone Holdings, LLC" filed for chapter 11, back on May 15, 2008. The article stated "However the Rail Museum will not be affected." Certainly sounds like a well run operation!