Lionel Rutland Mogul is DOA. Update, video added.

Gary - that is a drag. Is there a factory reset before you reach out for service that can be executed on this engine?

Paul

superwarp1 posted:

My brand new Lionel Rutland Mogul is dead on arrival.  I programmed the TMCC ID, all sounds work, smoke unit works, it moved around the layout a little jerky, figured it needs a break in, backed it to its train. Hit forward and it moved an inch then nothing.  Still all sounds work, smoke unit works but no movement.

the cab light is flashing, what does that mean?

It means you need to send it back! Good old Lionel quality control.

ill be calling Lionel soon.

The cab light flashes a diagnostic code.

1,2,or3. What the error code means is in the back of the manual.

The Loco will reset 3 times via the remote or you can remove power briefly and get 3 more.

Given the erratic operation. I'm guessing the code is flashing for "motor driver stalled".

Something jamming the drivers could cause this as well as dirty track.

Forum member SJC was complaining about traction tires  rubbing the brake shoe detail on his mogul. I'd start there.

Legacy locos have back drivable gears. You can turn them by hand (with some resistance) and check for issues.

RICKO,

Luckily these models are relatively inexpensive, i.e. cheap, so such issues are to be expected?

No. Your absolutely right hotwater. I was just trying to give some info to Gary that might save him shipping charges if it's an "easy"fix.

That's 2 so far with operational issues. There will be more. The thing about Lionel defects is they're always "usual suspects".

I didn't see SJC's post, but I'm not thrilled with the traction tires on my B&M Mogul, either. First, they are mounted on the front wheels which makes changing them more difficult (not sure why they couldn't have been mounted on the rears).

More importantly, the tires seem awfully narrow compared to the width of the wheel, itself. It's almost as if the train is balancing itself on a tire which is too narrow for the wheel. If you look on the video I posted on the recent "Ac-9's Shipping" thread, you can see the train is wobbling a little on the tracks. In addition, the tires seemed out of round. When I track tested it at my local LHS, we saw the wobble and actually took the loco off and tried to true the tires with a very small chisel.  

Gary - Make sure the tires aren't rubbing anywhere. Then I'd try turning everything off and turn the smoke switch off on the underside of the loco and put the loco back on the track and power up and start the engine.  Make sure smoke is off on the remote. Hit the "R" button and you should hear a quick horn/whistle. Try moving forward and see if it goes.  

If that works, I'd power everything down again and re-program under a different ID # with the smoke switch still off and then back to run. If that works, I'd power down again and put the smoke switch back on and back on the track. Run a couple of laps and turn the smoke back on via the remote.

Hot Water posted:

RICKO,

Luckily these models are relatively inexpensive, i.e. cheap, so such issues are to be expected?

I'd hardly call a $600+ engine "cheap".................

As for traction tires, I cut the brake shoes off the front wheels. They are not screwed on. I cut the original tires off to confirm that was the issue. Once confirmed, I reinstalled the extra set temporarily until I could get my hands on thinner MTH tires. I will make it a point to replace again ASAP. 

SJC posted:

As for traction tires, I cut the brake shoes off the front wheels. They are not screwed on. I cut the original tires off to confirm that was the issue. Once confirmed, I reinstalled the extra set temporarily until I could get my hands on thinner MTH tires. I will make it a point to replace again ASAP. 

SJC - I was also thinking of cutting off the original ones, but the replacement ones didn't look any better than the ones that came on it. If you find a set of wider, thinner MTH tires, please let us know the part #. Thanks.

Sounds similar to the tire problem on some of the F3 AA Lionel diesels a few years ago. I have a WM that had that issue.

Remnd me not to buy a used engine from you guys. Cutting off the brake shoes, traction tires? Sheeesh.

Let me suggest if you think something is rubbing, first connect an ammeter between the transformer and track assuming there isn't one on the transformer already. Then check to see the current never goes over about 1 1/2 amps running light. If it does or the current fluctuates greatly then something is dragging down the motor. If its a brake shoe then remove that axle assuming its the one not screwed on and grind the shoe down with a dremel. Shouldn't too hard given the keeper plate allows easy removal of the axles.

Pete

One flashing cab light means the main drive motor has stalled. Give the loco a small push and hit Aux1, 0. Then try to move the engine, it it still stalls and the flash comes back after a few tries, send it to be fixed

I’m going to give it a second look tonight, thanks for the suggestions.   Sad but it seems who ever I  purchase from there’s always some issue

Gary, if you want to call me, I can go through it with you.

I am running conventional and am getting the single cab flash at very low voltage. Will eventually stall the engine requiring a restart.

would this warrant a return to Lionel? First Legacy loco so my knowledge of these issues is non-existent.

Ok, update.  With a careful inspection, no brake shoes rubbing, no binding of the running gear.  I was able with a small screwdriver to turn the flywheel and yes the motor was locked.  I was able to unlock it but after a little running it would lock up again.   At slow speed there’s a  definite bind.  So I removed the plate, and yes added a little grease but it didn’t help.  Check out the video.  Something wrong with the worm gear, axle gear, or the motor itself.

Gary, look for the traction tires on the front set of drivers binding on the brake shoes.  The tires on them are not good.  Your own engine, cut them off and you know what do do then.

They may have put too big of a tire on that engine like they did with my Lionmaster Challenger

Marty Fitzhenry posted:

Gary, look for the traction tires on the front set of drivers binding on the brake shoes.  The tires on them are not good.  Your own engine, cut them off and you know what do do then.

Well those tires sure may be causing that engine to bounce down the track but 100% sure it’s not the cause of the locking up of the motor. When the motor is locked up, everything else moves freely.

but for argument sake I’ll remove the tires and see what happens.

Love these; I have an "older" NYC version.

Side rod screws all snugged down (had a loco lock up when one would hit the main rod)?

Can you tell if the motor is loose in its mount (rocking/shifting affecting gear mesh)? Had that happen on a diesel or two. Check the piston rods/cylinder/crosshead interaction.

It may "work itself out"; had this happen before. Maybe run it for 15 minutes steadily and see it it improves; I don't think you would hurt anything as it does not appear to be under any particular strain. The "binding" makes me think this may not work, but before you send it back - it's on the layout anyway.

Probably none of the above, but they're free. 

Looks like it may be time to email Lionel and get an RA# for warranty repair.

https://www.lionelsupport.com/Contactus/

Maybe see if they'd pick up the return shipping or you'll go back to MTH.

That return shipping starts to eat away at the prorder discount.

Let Lionel diagnose the problem and fix it for you. That may also help others that have the same problem. It’s Legacy, their best. They want and need happy customers. 

Rod Miller

superwarp1 posted:

At slow speed there’s a  definite bind.  So I removed the plate, and yes added a little grease but it didn’t help.

 

My mogul has the same bind/lurch at slow speed. The front side rods have excessive slop in the connection to the traction tire wheelset. I think that slop appears to be a bind. Maybe the factory used the wrong shoulder screws or oversized the hole in the side rods.

My motor does not lock up but my old TMCC mogul runs a lot smoother at slow speed. 

romiller49 posted:

Let Lionel diagnose the problem and fix it for you. That may also help others that have the same problem. It’s Legacy, their best. They want and need happy customers. 

Rod Miller

I'm going to investigate more tonight.  I didn't notice any extra play in the running gear but everything was free but the motor when the motor was jammed.  More than likely I'll get a RMA and send it Lionel.   I already have three or four locos that need my attention, really don't have the time to play with this issue.  I'll let Lionel do it.

Hi Gary

If the side rods or traction tires aren't the issue, I would put the engine on stationary rollers and run  it at full speed forward and backward for 10 minutes. Sometimes these engines are tight out of the factory, running at high speed just might loosen it up. it's worth a try before packing it up and shipping it back to Lionel. When I bought my NYC Empire State Express it was very tight out out the box, I ran it on rollers for 10 minutes each way and it solved the issue.

Alex

Yep, that's my plan tonight.

This is sad, but i guess to be expected now days. 

FWIW, attached are pics of the inside. Crowded but looks well laid out.

aussteve posted:

This is sad, but i guess to be expected now days. 

This comment is such a sad commentary on today's Lionel O gauge command control locomotives. Why such obviously unnecessary DOA malfunctions occur flabbergast me. Being primarily an ogauger, on a whim I recently purchased an inexpensive z gauge starter set, Marklin 81846, made in Hungary. As you can see in these videosit runs flawlessly like a Swiss watch with no binding whatsoever of its diminutive gears, valve assembly, or 5-pole motor. If a 1:220 Z gauge steam locomotive with its extremely small mechanism made of intricate parts with ultra close machined tolerances can be manufactured and assembled to run smoothly and problem free without binding, why can't a much larger 1:48 O gauge locomotive be manufactured to do the same? Why such disproportionate quality control between these two scales?

Btw, while the Marklin locomotive shown runs conventionally there are command controlled Z gauge locomotives which similarly function superbly.

The Maerklin loco: "it runs flawlessly like a Swiss watch with no binding whatsoever..."

True, I'm sure, and not to defend this Mogul or any other product from any company, but 95% of my O-gauge locos (all brands) have "run flawlessly" also - even some used and banged-around ones.  I have a substantial collection, and I'd need a meaningful sample of Maerklin equipment to know their problem rate. I guarantee you that there is one - everybody has one.

My banged-up, second-hand Lionel AC-12 Cab-forward - after I re-attached some parts, tightened the loose cab and straightened out the scraping pilot (dropped?) does, indeed, "run like a watch", Swiss or otherwise. A big, heavy watch.

My Lionel Mogul has been fine from the start. I'm sure Superwarp's will be fine too.

Gary,

Sorry to hear about your Mogul. While we do 100% testing off the line, issues can arise in transit. Please call us and we'll take care of you.

Dave

I just watched the video again. Somehow I missed the "plastic coal load".

That's B.S. (precisely why I no longer preorder) 

Every scale steamer from Lionel, no matter the price range, has had a real coal load for at least the last 10+ years. This includes the KLINE tooled stuff which didn't have realistic loads from KLine.

Most if not all Lionel tooled locos were originally offered with a cast in load that was changed to a realistic load on subsequent releases.

The only exception was the legacy Pennsy turbines, which IMO were a complete disaster right down to the water damage.

Price range,smice range. Lionel has the highest prices in the hobby. They need to do better to justify it.

 Correction die cast not plastic. Best diecast load I’ve seen

It looks diecast to me.  The real coal loads are fine...but often the pieces come loose and can scratch the sides of the tender in the packaging.

Mike W. posted:

It looks diecast to me.  The real coal loads are fine...but often the pieces come loose and can scratch the sides of the tender in the packaging.

My mistake it’s the best diecast load I’ve ever seen.  Don’t know where plastic came from.  LOL

ok update. No more locking up.  That’s one issue gone so far.  I had to replace the traction tires and the bouncing is gone. The jerking is noticeable between speed steps 1-19 but after that it smooths out and runs great..   So I’m going to do another video and see what Dave says can be done.  Better but not perfect.

My B&M has the exact same stutter issue. Will not run smoothly at low speed. 

Surefire posted:

My B&M has the exact same stutter issue. Will not run smoothly at low speed. 

My central Vermont is the same. Not the first I've seen this with Lionel engines. My LC+ Camelback is the same 

One issue as Marty stated is the traction tire, they are warped and uneven in thickness.  Another issue in my humble opinion is why the traction tire on the front driver.  Why?   

RMA, is created and mine is going to Lionel. We’ll see what they say.  Mine runs great after speed step 20

I suspect the traction tire is on the front driver set because thats where the motor is, mounted like a K-Line engine. You want the most weight over the tire.

Pete

 Just curious if you have tried running it with the Odyssey off ?    Could the jerkiness at slow speed be something in the driver board rather than mechanical.