Ok Guys, I need some input. I am going to be building my bench work with 1x4" and 2x2 legs, so I have 2 questions.
1) What would you suggest for spacing of the "L" girders ?
2) What thickness would you suggest for plywood top?
Thanks in advance!
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mike g. posted:Ok Guys, I need some input. I am going to be building my bench work with 1x4" and 2x2 legs, so I have 2 questions.
My first thought is do NOT use 2"X2" for legs, as they will eventually warp. I use 1"X4" screwed/glued together in an "L" pattern, as they are light and extremely strong.
1) What would you suggest for spacing of the "L" girders ?
My "L" girders are 1"X4" with a 1"X2" screwed/glued on top to form the "L", and spaced 12" to 18" apart. Thus 3 or 4 adults can be up on top of the layout at a time, working on track & scenery.
2) What thickness would you suggest for plywood top?
I went with 3/4" roofing plywood, thus it is extremely strong.
Thanks in advance!
Mike, I have built my tables with 1 X 4 framing and 2 X 4 legs. I have used 24 " spacing on the cross pieces. Somebody mentioned not going with 2 x 2 for legs because of warping. I have always used 2 X 4's. At the bottom of the legs I use Carrage bolts with a nut as leveling screws. I drill the hole for the bolt then finish with a larger hole for the nut. I hammer the nut into the wood and I then have my leveling bolt. I would go with 15' spacing of the L girders. Years and years ago I used 3/4" plywood but have settled into using 1/2" plywood. ...............Paul
Mike, Both Paul's and Hot Water's suggestions are good! I think the difference between 3/4" or 1/2" plywood and spacing of L girders depends on whether you plan to crawl or stand on the layout, or not. I have never built a layout with the intention of getting up on it, so the lighter plywood and 16" spacing has worked for me. My layouts have always been built to be able to reach everything while standing on the floor.
I agree 100% with Mark. To make things easier in the grid construction I used a nail gun. Good luck Mike.
Mike, I think you'll need to get up on your layout in order to install the track and landscaping in the bottom center of your design and maybe in the center of the circular peninsula. That would suggest not using 2x2's for legs, at least not in that area. I'm a fan of Alex's method shown in the attached photo. It's similar to forming an "L" using 1x4s (or 2x4's), but instead of just screwing the legs to the corner of the frame, the offset allows the weight of the decking to rest on the top of the leg rather than putting pressure on the screws.
Using 3/4" vs 1/2" for decking is always a dilemma. I lean toward 1/2" simply because it's cheaper and lighter, meaning easier for this old guy to carry. I think if you space your girders 24" or less apart, you'll find that both will work just fine, though I would probably use 16" or less with 1/2". Jim Barrett did a series on his 1x3/2x2 layout in OGR back in 2013/2014. He found that one of the keys to noise reduction was minimizing vibration, so he suggested using 16" centers for 1/2" plywood. Some advantages to 3/4" are less warping and arguably less noise with wider spacing because the thicker material won't vibrate as much. 1/2" is lighter and good for modular layouts, but once it's laid on a permanent layout who really cares how much it weighs? Tom Tee is a big fan of a product called Advantech, if you can find it. Our 84 Lumber doesn't stock it, but will order it with a 2-3 day shipping time frame.
Mike, I don't do L girder. I just build grid frames with 1x4, no nails! drywall screws. Two foot spacing on the grids. Legs are just 2x4's. Regular 3/4" B-C plywood works fine. Good enough for me to walk on, I'm sure you don't weigh what I do. I also put down a layer of fiber board on top of the plywood for sound deadening. Homasote is way too expensive, and hard to find these days.
Hi Mike
I think Marks point about all the suggestions being good.
I have always been accused of going a little overboard on my building habits.
I used 2X4 completely and covered with 1/2 inch plywood then covered it with quite brace. Quite brace is a inexpensive sound material that is a mess to work with but, suppose to help reduce noise. (debatable)
I needed this overkill because I have lots of over head storage areas.
I needed to be able to walk anywhere on my layout if I wanted to.
Besides I like to dance on the table.
with a Coors light of course.
I also wanted to close the bench frame with walls all the way around and add doors. Once again for storage under the layout.
Have fun with it and if possible don't make it a job.
Larry
Semper Fi.
OK Mike, I guess my previous post here got deleted because i made a snarky remark about most people that post here seem to over-build - preparing for an earthquake or nuclear attack. Mine has been up since 1988 in an upstate NY basement with no problems. 28' x 30" along a wall & 17' x 36" along another wall plus 4' x 8' extension on the 17' wall and a 12' x 12' peninsula. Legs are 2x3, 2x2's will warp and 2x4's are overkill. Get your local independent lumber yard to make you 2x3's out of 2x6's (inexpensive). The exterior framing is all 1x4; cross braces spaced 12" to 18" apart are all 1x2's. It is all topped with a mix of lumber depending on the terrain: either 1"pine or 3/4" ply depending on what i had on hand. The 4'x8' hidden loop and the 17'x36" yard lead/passenger yard is ALL 1/4" ply topped with 1/2" Homasote. Both those areas will support my 200+LBS. As to the price of Homasote: it's about $20 - $25 a 4x8 sheet - inconsequential when folks are spending $1000 on engines and $100ea. on Ross turnouts. As i said mine has been up 30 years, visited 3 or 4 times by the NMRA and may be the subject of a LCCA article. Good luck.
mike g. posted:Ok Guys, I need some input. I am going to be building my bench work with 1x4" and 2x2 legs, so I have 2 questions.
1) What would you suggest for spacing of the "L" girders ?
2) What thickness would you suggest for plywood top?
Thanks in advance!
Mike If you are using a solid plywood top I am not sure why you would bother with L girder. I have always used 2x4 or 2x3 legs with 1/2 inch plywood and regular 1x4 lumber for the frame, no L girder. I basically used 16" spacing although you could use 24" if you put a 5th leg in the center. I have used L girder when I am building a mostly open frame with only occasional pieces of plywood.
Al Galli
I agree with not using 2x2s due to warping. I don't know a lot about the L-girder or 1x? whatever size for framing, but I agree with the 16" or so spacing between support members and 1/2" plywood is fine, IMO. Get some nice plywood like Home Depot's sandply or birch plywood. The yellow pine they sell as sheathing will warp on you, if not already warped when you get it. OSB or MDF have little to no warping as well. I never liked the idea of the OSB because of the rough surface, but I think they now have some that is more regular and even surfaced. May be called something else these days though?
The reason I have no experience with the 1x? or 2x? benchwork framing is because I used Mianne for my benchwork. Topped it with 1/2" sandply from HD (which they cut into smaller sizes that I could handle) for a top and it made a very solid table. You can climb up and walk around on it all day with no problem. FWIW, I do like the idea of the 1x3-1x4 on 90 deg angles for the legs. Seems like they would be pretty solid. Dave's example above looks pretty solid too, IMO. However, if you get a good grade of 1x3-1x4 you might be able to get the 2x4s for less cost? I haven't priced that stuff lately, but the good 1x?s used to be more than the 2x?s?. HAven't looked at them recently though.
From the looks of your train room addition it appears you are pretty good with lumber. There is a lot of good advice here (everyone does things differently) so take the best of it all and do what you are most comfortable with in your methods of construction.
Good Luck and we like to look at pictures, that includes pics of the inspections (if he is not too tired that is)!
All good advice! I did notice one thing I forgot to say. I have used open grid and L-girder in the past. I used L-girder when I had an open frame with risers and cookie cutter roadbed, with sections of wider plywood for yards or flat town areas. I plan on using open grid of 1x3 lumber for the open grid, but use 2x4s for the legs simply because I brought a bunch of 2x4 material home from my dad's shop we cleaned out last month. I have some 1'2" plywood from Dad and some from a friend, so I will use it. I also have a lot of left over 1/2" Homasote I will use, but would probably buy sound board if I run out of Homasote.
I do like Alex's leg construction, but I think I'll have enough 2x4s. If not, I will try Alex's method. Dave is right, you have that wide area you may want to climb up on unless you build a pop up somewhere.
Larry, your ceiling, overhead shelves and cupboards look fantastic and quite functional!
There are lots of excellent suggestions above. The only one that caught my eye was one about using nails or a nail gun. Nails have no place in Model Railroad benchwork. Except possibly finishing nails to hang up the backdrop. The distance between your elders will depend upon the thickness of the plywood you use. Do not stand on your layout. Repeat do not stand on your layout. You need to figure out where you will have access holes if you have over 30 in to reach. The spacing I used on mine I probably overdid it I did 16 in. Most people do 24 in. If you're using a sub base of half an inch 4 Road bed and your top layer is half an inch for your road bed and by Road bed on talking about the plywood base that's going to support the railroad bed in the track one in you will be fine that is more than enough. Unless, and I forgive me for repeating. Do not stand on your layout. There are many track Arrangements you can do in your space or there are access holes that you can do that will prevent you from having to do that which is always a mistake. Sooner or later it becomes a problem and your knees and back will thank you.
John C. posted:There are lots of excellent suggestions above. The only one that caught my eye was one about using nails or a nail gun. Nails have no place in Model Railroad benchwork. Except possibly finishing nails to hang up the backdrop.
I whole heartedly agree with this statement!!!!!! We used nothing but wood screws and TightBond Professional wood glue. After the glue set, I removed all the screws and refused them, over and over and over. Our whole layout is held together with pretty much NOTHING but TightBond Professional Wood Glue, as the single box of wood screws has pretty much been lost in the process. The same process was used for the road bed (VinylBed) and track laying, i.e. the road bed was glued down with TightBond, then later the track was glued down and screwed until the glue set. I few days later, I removed any & all track screws.
The distance between your elders will depend upon the thickness of the plywood you use. Do not stand on your layout. Repeat do not stand on your layout. You need to figure out where you will have access holes if you have over 30 in to reach. The spacing I used on mine I probably overdid it I did 16 in. Most people do 24 in. If you're using a sub base of half an inch 4 Road bed and your top layer is half an inch for your road bed and by Road bed on talking about the plywood base that's going to support the railroad bed in the track one in you will be fine that is more than enough. Unless, and I forgive me for repeating. Do not stand on your layout. There are many track Arrangements you can do in your space or there are access holes that you can do that will prevent you from having to do that which is always a mistake. Sooner or later it becomes a problem and your knees and back will thank you.
Mike, I must have missed the post about nails because I also agree with John C, nails have no place on a layout. I tend to agree about walking on the layout too, but that doesn't stop folks. You have plenty of space in the circle to add a large access hatch to reach those bottom tracks and I suggest you plan for that.
John C, you mention 1/2" for sub-roadbed and 1/2" for roadbed. Are you talking a plywood base with a layer of something like Homasote? Or something else entirely?
Hi everyone and thanks you for all the advice! I have a lot to think about, I was thinking 5/8" plywood, I hove no problem going with 2x4 legs, but I am still not sure on spacing, 16" OC would be a lot more wood, I don't plan on standing on it and the bench is mostly 30" wide and about 36" high. I will mull it over before I hit the lumber yard!
Thanks again everyone!
Mike, Seriously you don't need 2x4 legs unless you're building something the size of Elliot's; 2x3's will save you some money (to buy more trains with). As to height consider 42" - 48"; your back will thank you and it's a better height to view trains at. Remember when we were kids and would lie on the floor looking at our trains running around the Xmas tree or on the carpet central at eye level. With 5/8" ply 30" wide max and in some areas against the wall, you might get away with 20+" OC if everything is screwed down securely. i'm helping 2 friends build HO benchwork right now and they're both planning high surfaces -- one 55" and the other 60". Grandkids? They grow and that's what stools are for.
John C. posted:There are lots of excellent suggestions above. The only one that caught my eye was one about using nails or a nail gun. Nails have no place in Model Railroad benchwork. Except possibly finishing nails to hang up the backdrop.
John when you're 74 yrs old, have arthritis in both shoulders, tethered to an oxygen concentrator (COPD) and working alone, the nail gun sure does help getting the job done.
wild mary posted:John C. posted:There are lots of excellent suggestions above. The only one that caught my eye was one about using nails or a nail gun. Nails have no place in Model Railroad benchwork. Except possibly finishing nails to hang up the backdrop.
John when you're 74 yrs old, have arthritis in both shoulders, tethered to an oxygen concentrator (COPD) and working alone, the nail gun sure does help getting the job done.
Given those constraints, it's understandable that you would choose nails. However, that is not the optimal fastener. The advent of the impact driver makes using screws the way to go. I also use a piloting / countersink combo to predrill holes near the end of boards to keep them from splitting.
Contrary to Hot Water's practice, I glue NOTHING. If it is necessary to remove anything, you'll have to really bust things up. If you decide to make changes, you can reuse the lumber. I've been reusing lumber for over 40 years, and some of it is in my current layout.
You probably have no idea how much load wood can carry when placed on end. The weak link will be the fastener. The thing about 2x4's is they are the least expensive piece of lumber. Just use them for legs.
To determine layout height, just sit on the floor or your creeper of choice, and hold up a tape measure. Reach above your head to a comfortable height. Personally, my layout is 42" minus the benchwork thickness of 4 - 3/4", so 37 - 1/4" clear head space.
Just remember that drywall screws are not structural. Screws have very little shear strength. They work for legs as long as you are using mortises or rabbits. If connecting 2 pieces face to face, nails are better if you plan on standing on your layout. There's also structural screws such as grks but they are pricey.
Todd Knoll posted:Just remember that drywall screws are not structural. Screws have very little shear strength. They work for legs as long as you are using mortises or rabbits. If connecting 2 pieces face to face, nails are better if you plan on standing on your layout. There's also structural screws such as grks but they are pricey.
In theory, that may be true, but I have over 40 pounds of drywall screws holding my layout together, and I haven't had one fail yet. I weigh over 300 pounds, and have no problem walking on the benchwork.
Some more good thoughts guys! I thought I would add a picture of the layout so you all will know what I am building. I thought of the 36" height because that is the height of the window the wife wants me to run it out into her garden down the road.36" was the min height I could go, I can always go higher.
Here is a SCARM picture of the future layout!
I used 1 x 4 and 2 x 2's for my L Girder and 1/2 ply for table. I cannot tell you how strong it is as I have walked all over it warpage on 2 x 2 s will be kept to a minimum I think due to bracing and gussets.
Joe Gozzo
Joe, That's some wonderful looking work! Just the kind of information I was looking for! Thanks for the pictures!
Mike,
I used this book exclusively to build my layout. I found L-girder simple to construct, with a lot less lumber. If L-girder interests you, this book is tremendous help. Just for the record, it states that a properly braced 2X2 will support over 1000# vertically.
I totally agree with John's post above, I bought this book followed the directions, worked out great....
Mike G.... If your benchwork is 36 wide or less, I would build the wall supports recommended in this book and have no legs at all.... easy to move around underneath to do wiring, piece of cake to take out the upright vacuum and clean under there...
The wall brackets are really nothing much more than a 2 x 2 with 1 x 2 angle supports and 1 x 4 's screwed to both sides of the 2 x 2 at 90 degrees to lay your L girders on..... Then just lag bolt the triangle to your wall studs through the 2 x 2 upright....
John and Chris, I have the same book. I bought it about a year ago when you first told me about it John! Great book, I plan on fallowing it as good as I can!
Thanks again!
Chris, that sure is some great looking bench work! Thank you for the pictures!
Big_Boy_4005 posted:wild mary posted:John C. posted:There are lots of excellent suggestions above. The only one that caught my eye was one about using nails or a nail gun. Nails have no place in Model Railroad benchwork. Except possibly finishing nails to hang up the backdrop.
John when you're 74 yrs old, have arthritis in both shoulders, tethered to an oxygen concentrator (COPD) and working alone, the nail gun sure does help getting the job done.
Given those constraints, it's understandable that you would choose nails. However, that is not the optimal fastener. The advent of the impact driver makes using screws the way to go. I also use a piloting / countersink combo to predrill holes near the end of boards to keep them from splitting.
Contrary to Hot Water's practice, I glue NOTHING. If it is necessary to remove anything, you'll have to really bust things up. If you decide to make changes, you can reuse the lumber. I've been reusing lumber for over 40 years, and some of it is in my current layout.
You probably have no idea how much load wood can carry when placed on end. The weak link will be the fastener. The thing about 2x4's is they are the least expensive piece of lumber. Just use them for legs.
To determine layout height, just sit on the floor or your creeper of choice, and hold up a tape measure. Reach above your head to a comfortable height. Personally, my layout is 42" minus the benchwork thickness of 4 - 3/4", so 37 - 1/4" clear head space.
What I didn't mention is that I still use deck screws. The nail gun is used to secure everything in position. BTW the optimun screws are deck screws, They're not brittle and have 8 times the shear strength over drywall screws. Drywall screws are for hanging sheetrock, not for joining wood.
If you just screw the deck to the top of the frame, there is NO shear force applied to the frame members. If you're doing some kind of cookie cutter roadbed, then there will be slight shear force on the screws, but not enough to make a difference.
One of the big advantages of L-girder is that everything is attached from underneath using cleats or part of the L. If part of the table needs to be removed, there would be no hidden screws to search for under scenery. But probably no one ever wants to change things after scenery is done. 😉
John H posted:One of the big advantages of L-girder is that everything is attached from underneath using cleats or part of the L. If part of the table needs to be removed, there would be no hidden screws to search for under scenery. But probably no one ever wants to change things after scenery is done. 😉
I have never liked or done L girder. It would be a real problem for my multi level design, with the L's making access much more difficult. The upper deck wouldn't even be possible if that was my foundation.
Plus, cleats can be used on bull nose bench work too. Mianne is basically bull nose and they attach the decking from the bottom.
Oh, you poor deprived American carpenters. When will you ever adopt Robertson screws? It's probably one of the most important Canadian inventions, along with drinkable beer, that makes for happy woodworkers. I built the entire train room exclusively with Robertson.
Bruce
brwebster posted:Oh, you poor deprived American carpenters. When will you ever adopt Robertson screws? It's probably one of the most important Canadian inventions, along with drinkable beer, that makes for happy woodworkers. I built the entire train room exclusively with Robertson.
Bruce
What you call Robertson screws I call deck screws.
Mike I think you're getting a little more info than you bargained for but that's the nature of this forum. Just ask "what time is it" and you'll learn how to build a clock. In the end it's a good thing.
mike g. posted:Joe, That's some wonderful looking work! Just the kind of information I was looking for! Thanks for the pictures!
Thanks Mike however although I did was follow the instructions in line wescotts book that somebody showed on your post it shows you how far apart to put the supports depending on the size of the table you're building and you screw that plywood down from underneath so that way of you need to move it or replace it you can do so
Thanks everyone, I guess I need to reread Linn Westcoott's book again!
Mike,
Email is in my profile. send me an email so I can give you a call to discuses.
Joe
When I built my last layout, I used 2" x 4" for my legs, I put my legs every 3' ( give or take a foot due to size of layout. (8' x 14' )I used 1" x 2" and built my framing like a would do a wall, every 16" then I put 23/32" plywood on top and fastened it with deck screws. I weigh about 275 LBs and never had a problem. I was forever getting up on it. on top of my 1" x 2" I laid 1" x 2" flat and then I put strips of indoor/outdoor carpet to keep the sound going down the legs. I also coated my screws with liquid electrical tape and it helped also on the sound, by preventing the sound to travel to the legs. ( not perfect, but it helped a lot. ) I also did this to my screws for my track. I also used indoor/outdoor green carpet for my cover of the plywood.
Mike, don't overthink this, every method mentioned so far will work. One of the main ideas behind L-girder was being able to use cross-members of different lengths so you could have an irregular shaped deck with curves instead of straight lines.
Unless you change things, yours is going to be a 30" deep shelf around the room with a peninsula in the center of one side. If you compare the L-girder example on the cover of his Linn's book to the bull nose example in Figure 3-1, you'll see that the only real difference is the placement of the rails. Also note, that both examples appear to show a 4x8 sheet where the legs are 2' apart with a 1' overhang on both sides. If you look at Joe's photos, he appears to have legs that are 4' apart with 2' overhangs to support an 8' deep deck, though it could just be the photos making them look that size. The point is you're only dealing with a 30" deep span which would suggest rails 18" apart with 6" overhangs or a rail against the wall with another rail 24" out with a 6" overhang. The peninsula then gets an extra 1-2 rails with longer cross-members.
One advantage to L-girder is that you aren't screwing into the end grain of the cross-members. Another is that the cross-members don't have to be exact lengths like with bull nose framing.
One disadvantage is that L-girder adds thickness to the bench work. If you use 1x4's, you have the rails at ~4" and then the cross-members at another ~4". If you make the deck 36", you have to stoop below ~30" to get under the layout. I don't know about you, but stooping under 30" gets harder every year. Even 42" still means a ~36" stoop.
And, as Tom Tee's photos show, you can do all but the peninsula without any legs if you want to attach cantilevered brace assemblies to the wall studs.
The way I see it you need a 12' long frame along both side walls, a 19' frame along the bottom wall. From what I can see it might look something like this:
mike g. posted:Thanks everyone, I guess I need to reread Linn Westcoott's book again!
Mike, I think the cost differential between Two 2x4's and One 2x6 (which would become two 2x3's) is a regional one. When i built my layout i priced 2x4's at 3 sources: Home Depot (tight curves), Lowe's (sweeping curves), Independent (straight) against the same independent for 2x6's (straight & cut to 2x3's), and the 2x6's won out. BUT this may be a function of local building codes; 2x6's are required on all new construction around here, plus most contractors use them on remodels wherever possible, required or not. Hence the good lumber yards stock them in quantity and price them competitively.
modeltrainsparts posted:mike g. posted:Thanks everyone, I guess I need to reread Linn Westcoott's book again!
Mike, I think the cost differential between Two 2x4's and One 2x6 (which would become two 2x3's) is a regional one. When i built my layout i priced 2x4's at 3 sources: Home Depot (tight curves), Lowe's (sweeping curves), Independent (straight) against the same independent for 2x6's (straight & cut to 2x3's), and the 2x6's won out. BUT this may be a function of local building codes; 2x6's are required on all new construction around here, plus most contractors use them on remodels wherever possible, required or not. Hence the good lumber yards stock them in quantity and price them competitively.
That's the thing here, 2x4's are more then 2x6, so I could get 2x6 rip them in half for my legs and a lesser cost then a single 2x4! Great Point!
Dave, that is drawing is what I have in mind, but I want to run a ledger board around the whole room to make sure everything is level. Then set my girders on top of that. I am thinking legs the go back towards the foot of the wall! kind of like a triangle!
Tom Tee posted:Maybe consider no legs at all:
Or build over a knee wall as i did in my staging room shown below. The knee wall encloses the sewer pipe and the wires run in a "J" trim along the edge. The slots provide visual guide for 0-5-0 access.
The fasteners shown are Grip Rite construction screws. I have used drywall screws but I have been discouraged by having conventional drywall screw heads twist off in subsequent use. Not real frequent, but enough to stop using them.
Tom, You have some great bench work there! I was thinking about the same thing, but just a 2x3 back to the toe of the wall and setting a rail all the way around the room as a ledger!
Mike, that is what I would do. I've seen other example like Tom's and it really looks good without legs, though you'll need them under the peninsula. Good luck!
Tom Tee's benchwork is more like fine furniture or cabinetry!! He does amazing benchwork.
I agree with both of you Dave and RTR! Tom has some great looking work there!
Mike, you really, really don't want legs - and the support legs for the peninsula can be set back as much as a foot from the edge if you use half inch ply deck. Three-quarter inch deck is even better.
How you build the pylons for the cantilevered supports can be basic. The top only needs to be 20-24" for a 30" wide deck.
Did you frame on 16" or 24" centers? if 16", then a pylon every other stud will be plenty.
Thanks Carl, I did frame 16"OC. I plan on starting next to the door so I can get my lift bridge all figured out as the rest of the track plan is based on it!
Thanks everyone!
Mike - FWIW, I used 2x4 legs and 1x4's for cross-members on my new layout which is basically ladder-type construction. I also used 1/2" plywood sanded on one side and built on 16" centers for the cross-members. The layout is extremely solid - even with 1" foam on top - I can crawl on it no problem.
Assuming you can keep the cuts straight, I see no problem with using ripped 2x6's for the legs.
Like Mary said, I used nails only to hold the wood in place in some spots before securing with 2" drywall screws for the frame and 1 1/2" for the top.
I also drilled holes for wiring in the cross-members with a drill press before assembly.
Tom Tee posted:Legs. I have used many types of material and styles for legs. No one favorite for me.
Maybe one of the least expensive and common materials is split 2 by 4s.
I take a length of 2 x 4 and rip it diagonally. I Then invert one of the halves and reattach it with LockTite's Premium Urethane adhesive, using a brad gun to hold them in place overnight.
Wipe off excess adhesive in an hour or so and run a round over bit on the outside corner edge the next day. Be careful when using the brad gun to stay away from that corner. Do not hit a brad with the round over bit.
In the photo below disregard the 2 x 4 stub on the bottom. That was for a special purpose. Not needed.
Reversing the grain at a ninety degree angle has been very helpful in eliminating warpage.
End shot.
The added stability really helped for this 55" high layout.
Painted and installed below.
Tom, I've always wondered if you were a cabinetmaker in a previous life. Your benchwork is spectacular. I'd love to see your layout in person. We had planned a trip out your way this fall, but had to cancel after I stepped on a nail. We are going to reschedule for spring. I'll email you when we figure things out.
DoubleDAZ posted:Mike, don't overthink this, every method mentioned so far will work. One of the main ideas behind L-girder was being able to use cross-members of different lengths so you could have an irregular shaped deck with curves instead of straight lines.
Unless you change things, yours is going to be a 30" deep shelf around the room with a peninsula in the center of one side. If you compare the L-girder example on the cover of his Linn's book to the bull nose example in Figure 3-1, you'll see that the only real difference is the placement of the rails. Also note, that both examples appear to show a 4x8 sheet where the legs are 2' apart with a 1' overhang on both sides. If you look at Joe's photos, he appears to have legs that are 4' apart with 2' overhangs to support an 8' deep deck, though it could just be the photos making them look that size. The point is you're only dealing with a 30" deep span which would suggest rails 18" apart with 6" overhangs or a rail against the wall with another rail 24" out with a 6" overhang. The peninsula then gets an extra 1-2 rails with longer cross-members.
One advantage to L-girder is that you aren't screwing into the end grain of the cross-members. Another is that the cross-members don't have to be exact lengths like with bull nose framing.
One disadvantage is that L-girder adds thickness to the bench work. If you use 1x4's, you have the rails at ~4" and then the cross-members at another ~4". If you make the deck 36", you have to stoop below ~30" to get under the layout. I don't know about you, but stooping under 30" gets harder every year. Even 42" still means a ~36" stoop.
And, as Tom Tee's photos show, you can do all but the peninsula without any legs if you want to attach cantilevered brace assemblies to the wall studs.
The way I see it you need a 12' long frame along both side walls, a 19' frame along the bottom wall. From what I can see it might look something like this:
Mike, in your case I think Dave’s suggestions are spot on! I cantilevered a 30” shelf on one wall in my small train room
Tom Tee posted:Elliot, sure, we can share nail/foot injuries. My background is wooden hydroplane construction, wood flooring, kitchen and bath renovations, airframe and power plant, residential electrical and plumbing, model RR curved benchwork. Alas, no cabinet building.
Retired from all that and now managing company's group insurance programs.
Well, in terms of throwing darts, my guess didn't hit the bullseye, but I didn't hit the wall either. You have some serious wood working chops, with all the tools to support that. By comparison, I'm a total hack when it comes to benchwork, but I cover it up fairly well.
Mike,
There is lots of good advice here but my suggestion is to build as strong as possible TO YOUR plan. Whether to use L Girder or open frame, use the build plan best for your layout. REMEMBER, you may have to crawl on the layout at some point in the future. I fell through a layout and it took six agonizing months of rehab and excruciating pain to recover. DO NOT make the mistake of saving a couple of bucks at the expense of strength. PLEASE !!!
Big_Boy_4005 posted:Tom Tee posted:Elliot, sure, we can share nail/foot injuries. My background is wooden hydroplane construction, wood flooring, kitchen and bath renovations, airframe and power plant, residential electrical and plumbing, model RR curved benchwork. Alas, no cabinet building.
Retired from all that and now managing company's group insurance programs.
Well, in terms of throwing darts, my guess didn't hit the bullseye, but I didn't hit the wall either. You have some serious wood working chops, with all the tools to support that. By comparison, I'm a total hack when it comes to benchwork, but I cover it up fairly well.
I’m a hack too! As long as it is sturdy is all that matters! I cover it up.
Well guys, I guess a lot of us are hacks here! LOL I think I am going to tray a leg set up kinda like Tom's where the support comes from the toe of the wall out to near the edge of the layout!
Carl, AKA Moonman brought up a good point, I don't have to go every 16" so I think I will put one in at every 32" Stud! but I still think I will go with either 5/8th" or 3/4" plywood! I think I will just buy 2 X6's and rip them into 2 x 3" for the supports as it is cheaper then a 2 x 4 x 8. Go figure!
Mike, I like Tom's way a lot. I took a shortcut on mine by buying 1000-pound metal brackets and driving lag bolts into the studs. I'm a poor carpenter, so this worked for me. Like most of my wood, the table top is a menagerie of used wood.
Mark, I like the brackets, but to spendy for me! I will just make some like those out of wood. Gives me a chance to use my new to me Shop Smith V!
Good deal, Mike!! If I had a Shop Smith and knew how to use it, I would probably do the same!!
Mark, I just got it so I am not sure about everything, but I am going to learn!
Just be careful you don't become Three Finger Mike!!! 
I always wanted one of those Shop Smiths! I was fascinated by them years ago after seeing a demo of one somewhere. Too old now, just stick with the much smaller stuff to work with these days. Sounds like a good plan Mike, I'm sure you will get the new tool figured out and be up and running in no time.
Mark, my plan is to do the best to KEEP all my fingers! I already ran my thumb threw my other table saw, but it was only the tip and it still hurt like hell!
RTR, I shouldn't be any problem figuring it out, there are tons of videos on youtube!
rtr12 posted:I always wanted one of those Shop Smiths! I was fascinated by them years ago after seeing a demo of one somewhere. Too old now, just stick with the much smaller stuff to work with these days. Sounds like a good plan Mike, I'm sure you will get the new tool figured out and be up and running in no time.
When I worked at the hobby store in Denver back in the early 80's we sold Shop Smith. The boss was a wizard with that thing. Always giving demos in the basement, and we'd have to clean up his sawdust. They were kind of cool, but I like having all the different tools, and not having to change the setup.
Mike, I've had one plus the jointer attachment, separate band saw and vacuum for about 25 years now. Unfortunately, work kept me from using it to its full potential before I retired and now traveling and the hot summers are doing the same. It's a great piece of machinery, but does take some planning to use efficiently to minimize having to change the configuration too often. And you're right, there are plenty of videos to help you learn how to do things.
I would too Elliot, but I don't own the New Yankee Workshop.
Roo, That's very nice!!
Roo, I also think that's very nice and since I want most of my wiring to the front of my layout, I'm going to use that wiring idea. Thanks for sharing.
Tom Tee,
I just saw this thread. You are a Master.
Ed K.
Tom, thanks for the information, I think I am going to stick with 1 x 4's with angle supports. I will put a ledger board all the way around the room as to have a nice level starting point!
ROO, that is very nice! I have never seen ducting like that before! Where would one get something like that?
I think that ducting or something very similar was shown in a previous thread …..
We use that gray type duct for CAT5 Ethernet jumpers at the telecom company. I should know what to call it, since I have specified it on too many work orders. I guess it is because I just rely on copy and paste! Nowadays, we use a lot more that is yellow and doesn't have rough edges for the fiber jumpers as they are far more prevalent. It is certainly easy to add or pullout wires and fibers. I would use it on a layout near a panel where I had a lot of wires, then in the outer reaches of the layout use a cable clamp with only one screw holding it in place so I could easily make changes. My days of fishing wires in and out of closed holes while in precarious spots are done. As a former coworker said to me once, "Mark, you always hurt yourself working. I only hurt myself having fun!" He was still riding motocross in the "senior division" when he left our company at about age 50.
At work, we used to call it 'Panduit', but that is just a brand name of one type of this wire trough. Kind of like a 'Crescent' wrench. Not sure of the proper generic name either? Everyone knew what Panduit was, regardless of what actual brand it was. My employer used it in all their control panels to tidy up (hide the birds' nests) the wiring.
I knew if I ask I would get the answer about this ductwork! That is what is great about this site, so much information! Thanks Guys!
Here is another idea you might use for the wire channels. I install more switches than I need and just hook them up as I go. The building circuits are 12 vdc with the volt/amp meter. I also use the GB wire holders from Home Depot.
rtr12 posted:At work, we used to call it 'Panduit', but that is just a brand name of one type of this wire trough. Kind of like a 'Crescent' wrench. Not sure of the proper generic name either? Everyone knew what Panduit was, regardless of what actual brand it was. My employer used it in all their control panels to tidy up (hide the birds' nests) the wiring.
Yes I agree, the stuff is known by Panduit no matter who makes it. Just like Crescent wrench.
The link Dave posted above doesn't look bad for pricing, might be a good source to order from. You can get it at electrical supply houses too, but they may charge more than Dave's link if you are not a contractor?
I like John's switch mounting in the cover of the trough. Good idea, and I have some of those switches too.
Yes, John’s idea is something I never thought of. Of course it would be a No No at the telecom and power companies I worked at. I can’t give an answer as to why, though. Good enough for “government work” as they say! ;-)
It's barely in the picture, but I have a 3 amp resettable breaker next to the ammeter to protect wiring for all the led lighting. The electronic breaker in the PC power supply trips instantly, so it is more of a redundancy in protection. I also ask for leftover odd lengths of the channel at the electrical supply store we use. I can usually get a deal.
That sure looks nice John! If I was rich and was done building bench work, I would hire you to wire mine for me! LOL But low and behold I am neither rich or have bench work done! But I will keep you all posted!
We use lots of professional items on the Railroad but I don't like posting photos or talking about it because people have a tendency to say "OH! I would never buy that stuff for a Model Railroad to expensive"
Yet they go down to the hobby shop and buy another Big Boy locomotive that they don't need!
We are not pros just average blokes who like things to work the first time and just about everything we do is done by us (Bruce Temperley, and myself Neville Rossiter) we don't have access to endless people and resources in West Australia that can help us, I admit sometimes I wish we did, skyrocketing shipping costs, new custom duties all making it harder and harder to have USA O scale in Australia. Roo.
I just bought two cheap old AHM flatcars and the shipping was 35 dollars Customs 5 the cars were 15 ! so 55 dollars all up. I modify the flats into slab cars for the Steel Mill they are ideal for what I want. Sorry for the rant I apologise.
Roo posted:We use lots of professional items on the Railroad but I don't like posting photos or talking about it because people have a tendency to say "OH! I would never buy that stuff for a Model Railroad to expensive"
Yet they go down to the hobby shop and buy another Big Boy locomotive that they don't need!
We are not pros just average blokes who like things to work the first time and just about everything we do is done by us (Bruce Temperley, and myself Neville Rossiter) we don't have access to endless people and resources in West Australia that can help us, I admit sometimes I wish we did, skyrocketing shipping costs, new custom duties all making it harder and harder to have USA O scale in Australia. Roo.
I just bought two cheap old AHM flatcars and the shipping was 35 dollars Customs 5 the cars were 15 ! so 55 dollars all up. I modify the flats into slab cars for the Steel Mill they are ideal for what I want. Sorry for the rant I apologise.
I can't imagine even doing it today here in the USA with $600+ engines and $80 boxcars not to mention the price of all the electronics. I got back into the hobby in 1988 and in the ensuing decade (when I amassed 15 of my 17 or 18 locos, 30+ passenger cars, and maybe 40 freight cars) the most I paid for an engine was $425; most were in the $200 - $300 range with a few under $100; boxcars at $15 (2 @ $24); passenger cars @ $15 - $30 each; 3 new TMCC Cab1's and a Command Base for $125. Over the years I learned to paint, add details, upgrade electronics, scratch build etc.; that to me was the fun of the hobby rather than checkbook railroading. Doing it in Australia or Europe shows a real commitment to O, scale or otherwise. Of course, then in the `70's I restored and raced pre-WWII MG's here in the states and can empathize with you.
Ha! 1975; I was in college then.
Tom, sorry for the gag! I couldn't resist! That's an excellent bucket seat creeper! Now you need four on the floor too!
Hi Tom here is the one we use the "seat" came from a boat store!
Because the layout is four feet off the floor we needed something a bit higher than yours.
That wiring to the left of the photo is new, working on it now, after a great day of running trains.
Roo.
Mark Boyce posted:Ha! 1975; I was in college then.
Tom, sorry for the gag! I couldn't resist! That's an excellent bucket seat creeper!
LOL in 1975 I was in junior Highschool! LOL
. "Doing it in Australia or Europe shows a real commitment to O, scale or otherwise"
I think I'm going along fine considering I have limited cash and resources and just an average modeller living in West Australia nothing special about me !
Tom. that is some great looking work and thank you for posting it! But I have to tell you all those wires kind of scare me! LOL
Great Tom, when it comes time to start wiring, I just may drop you an E-mail! When it come to wiring I am as dumb as a box of rocks! You can just ask RTR, John H. They have both helped me in the past! LOL
Tom, When I looked at your panels, the word 'sleek' came to mind! They look very attractive and very functional.
Mike, Once you get into it, you will see it is a basic concept that is just repeated over and over again. You'll get it fine!!
I agree with Mark, I don't think you will have any problems wiring your layout Mike.
I'm no match for Tom or Roo, but I'm glad to share what I do know if asked.
Thanks guys! we will see how it goes when the time comes!
I'm no match for Tom or Roo, but I'm glad to share what I do know if asked.
John, and other members interested, you would be (a match for me anyway!) if you knew the whole story.
My layout is just old fashioned DC using relays for the turnouts everything you need to know is in the late Andy Sperandeo's book called "Easy Model Railroad Wiring" it is out of print but I see it sometimes on Ebay best book on wiring ever and i have them all. The wiring looks neat because it is and using industrial parts makes it look more complicated than it is.
As far as the woodwork goes it is just basic woodwork two beams joined by crossbeams glued and screwed and covered with MDF or Ply. Nothing fancy very basic. You can buy a cheap docking saw for 100 bucks put a good blade in it and build all your benchwork then toss it.
Toms work is very advanced, mine is day 1 week 1 woodwork.
Roo.
Looks good though ROO! Its going to blend in nicely into your layout!~~
I see a lot of nice work here. Where do you guys get your lumber? No matter where I buy mine if it's straight when I buy it warps after it has been in my hobby building for awhile even though it is heated &A/C plus a dehumidifier being used. I have almost given up on building a layout. I just burned about 200.00 worth of lumber, yes it was that bad.
Tom Tee posted:Lumber, ahhhhh. It think it would easier to convince you of my religion or politics. I frequently get push back on this. Simply put; I do NOT use dimensional lumber for decking support, decking framework or module components at all. Exception is at bump outs.
For framework I use Maple/Birch shop grade 23/32" (3/4") plywood. I usually have it slit on the yard's saw into thirteen 3 1/2" X 8' strips. SO take what ever price you pay for quality hard wood 3/4" plywood and divide it by 13 and you have a rather economical cost of frame work material.
I do not use any screws or bolts for building frame work. It is only glued together. I do use a pneumatic brad gun to tack the material together. Tightbond III for perfectly flat fully touching/contact surfaces. Polyurethane premium adhesive for rough irregular surfaces.
I use dowels when dry assembling so when adhesive is applied everything will be where it belongs.
Clamps, yes I do have a large assortment of clamps. Pipe clamps, bar clamps, C clamps and squeeze clamps.
If you want to see how curved benchwork side frames are made visit a curved staircase manufacture or look at my photo below:
Clamping up a valley module above.
Cutting the drop angle cross members from a single sheet of plywood below.
No scrap at all. All "left over material" becomes either risers or cleats. As you cut "L"s out of a sheet the long legs get shorter, the short legs get longer as you cut into the body of the sheet of plywood. Simple remedy, flip and weave in sequential pieces as viewed in lower photo. Note the grain.
Finished module below. All my work was in modules due to possible relocation. This layout had to be moved within four years.
The same drop center valley module side frames can be used for either an inside or outside corner.
When necessary you can steam 3/4" plywood and wrap it around a paint can.
Thanks Tom. My other choice was to use poplar from a saw mill done the road. Not cheap but it's straight. I am going to look into the birch plywood.
I ended up using Mianne for mine, which is made of poplar. No warping, twisting or anything like that in the few years since I got it. It has been great and was very fast and easy to assemble. I now use poplar from Home Depot or Lowes for all my small projects on the layout and off. They have several small thickness sizes and lengths that are good for hobby projects and about all I can handle these days. I can't handle sheets of plywood anymore, but I think Tom Tee's methods using good plywood is arguably the best out there. No warping with that and his benchwork looks great too!
Here is an idea for a simple module layout .I built four for a display layout at shows I still have them sitting in a shed doing nothing.
The idea is this one sits on two sets of legs first so it's self standing then the next one has one set of legs and one end rests on that "step" you see at the end. I made a jig for the leg assembly so they would all be the same again all this is built by an amateur with just a cheap docking saw, woodwork is not my trade. My trade was Motor mechanics I liked Drag Racing and getting cars to go fast.
Not much difference to welding up a chassis with metal or building a module with wood same principles.
I hope to one day donate these modules to the local club. Roo.
John H posted:Mike,
I used this book exclusively to build my layout. I found L-girder simple to construct, with a lot less lumber. If L-girder interests you, this book is tremendous help. Just for the record, it states that a properly braced 2X2 will support over 1000# vertically.
Hi John H, Looking in the same book from Linn Westcott, maybe you can help me out? On page 18 Fig. 4-8 It looks like if I do a 1 X 3 I can put a support leg every 9' 6". Can you confirm this?
I am trying to put together a lumber list for my "L" girders and joist, along with lumber for leg supports. I plan on using the one furthest to the left in fig. 4-8.
Mike,
I don't have my book anymore, but if that is specified, I'm sure it will work.
Thanks John! That's what the book says . LOL
Mike, There is a lot to learn in Linn's book, rather helpful. However his span specs IMO are way too far apart using the average lumber available today. That book was written from a nineteen seventies perspective.
The second edition of that book does not alter the span graph.
I would reduce all of his span lengths in column S and F by 50%. His span of 21'8" with a total of four legs spaced out (2 on each side) with 1x4 "L" girder is way out there IMO. My max thought would be 4' span and 24" overhang with diagonal bracing.
Also, using the wet dimensional lumber from today's fast paced big box store merchandising is not the same quality as the lumber available decades ago.
Look at any pile of lumber in any half loaded rack of big box lumber and there is a layer of twisted & distorted rejects. Good only for donnage.
I use a moisture meter when picking up lumber. At the big box stores it is not uncommon to find moisture readings in the mid to high teens. That is wet wood!!! At times it actually drips!!
Lumber moisture percentages should be in the medium-high single digits to get a stable assembly.
Just stamping "kiln dried" on lumber does not in and of it's self affect the actual moisture content.
Thanks Tom, I am lucky as I have a lumber store near me that deals in lumber! Not alot of the other stuff the big box stores do.
They even tell everyone there not a hardwear store, just lumber!
I do plan on cutting the distance down, just no sure how far.
Thanks again Tom.
Mike - Great that you have a real lumber store near you! They have so much better quality than the junk you get in a big box store (and often no more expensive). I have two independents within six miles and another about 10 miles away. The big box places are about 14 miles away, so for me it's a no-brainer.
Modeltrainsparts, Its really nice, the are friendly and helpful, cut anything I want at no extra cost. The nearest Big Box lumber store is about 25 miles from my place so it too works out great for me!
We are spose to get an Ace Hardwear built this fall so that will be nice!
Hi guys, just a side question. What do you all think about plumbing air into the train room? Not AC. I was thinking if I was going to do it, now would be the time!
Am not sure what you'd need the air for? One time only for air tools while building the benchwork? With very LOW pressure for dusting? Certainly not for working on trains. For such limited uses wouldn't it be less expensive to buy a $40 compressor from Harbor Freight? Or, if you have a compressor already just run a short length of air pipe through the wall where your bench will be to tap into as needed?
That's just it, I already have an upright air compressor and plumbed into the garage. I was thinking air for airbrushing the track after its down and anything else I could use it for. All I would have to do it add a "T" and a short section of pipe into the train room. Add a pressure regulator and I would be set!
Mike, IMO no brainer. Do it, if it’s that easy. The one time you use it will be worth the small amount of work now when it’s easy to do. Same with a vacuum system if available. I hooked up piping to my central vac system in the finished half of the basement, and use it way more than I ever thought I would. All your work is really looking good Mike.
Thanks Ted! It would be so easy just add a "T" and a small section of pipe. Bummer for me no central vacuum system, but do have a nice rolling shop vac!
Coming from one who knows nothing about air brushing, I am not sure a regular shop compressor is suitable for use in this application? I think Tom Tee has good advice above and that may make your 'air' much more suitable for air brushing. As he says, the regular old air compressors put our moisture and oil with the air which might not be very desirable for airbrushing? An air dryer might be required as well? If so then a special compressor for airbrushing may be less expensive?
The reason I mention this is that I used to work with pneumatic controls and they required special air compressors with piston rings, air dryers, filters and other things that helped prevent oil, moisture and other contaminants from getting into the system. The controls were sensitive and required 'clean, dry and oil free air' to operate properly. Anything else gummed/clogged up the controls and they became unreliable. My thinking was that the 'air' for airbrushing would probably need similar requirements?
Many years ago, I purchased an old compressor with no added goodies. I had to smooth out the ripples in the airflow and remove the oil and water. I found a 12" to 15" piece of galvanized pipe and filled it with cotton balls and used Tygon tubing and rubber corks at each end. It worked very well, even for painting rolling stock. Sometimes you can overthink things.
My $0.02.
Ed
Indeed you can! I was just throwing the above out there for thought, as I said upfront, I know nothing about airbrushing!
I also forgot to add that I would add the air drop to the train room anyway, while it's easy to do. I am sure it will come in handy for something regardless.
Thanks Guys, My compressor already has a water/oil separator on it, I use it to paint mowers and other outside yard tools and it works fine!
If I recall correctly, Elliot “Big Boy 4005” put in an air pipe in his layout room. However he has a club sized layout room.
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