Bing HO mid 1920's

Nice trains Carey, and in France, at the same time, JEP offers the Pacific mignon also in  HO gauge. In fact it was not successful, being not of an easy use for small hands, and only high voltage.

Daniel

EGAD! HIGH VOLTAGE for an HO train? Did not the old world have knowledge of transformers? Was ist los!

And let us not forget the Clockwork versions

My Carriages

A loco for spares ( with a fine scale wheel set included for some reason lol ) but also with a correct tender. Plan is to use the body also as my working one is not quite as nice

My Good working loco

And a swag of pressed tin2-rail track in as new condition

It was a real feat of engineering in the day to fit both these clockwork and electrical versions into such small bodies . I like to imagine the sense of wonder upon the face of some small child way back then, seeing a fully functioning model railway that could fit on a dining table !

The sets were rather lavish and came with a swag of accesories ( not mine, pic lifted from web)

is there anything in period (1920's) print that actually uses the term "HO"?

overlandflyer posted:

is there anything in period (1920's) print that actually uses the term "HO"?

The terminology H0 seems to be used at first in 1951. The term 00 was used around 1936 (but already defined at least ten years earlier as 5/8 Inch gauge (a bit less than 16 mm)). Small scale trains before 1936 were not given a gauge name. The Bing (and BUB) trains on 16.5 mm gauge were called Tischbahn or (Miniature) Table Railway. The JEP railway at 16.5 mm was called Mignon (small (or cute)). The next one using this gauge was Trix and they just called it Trix Express. Märklin seems to be the first to use the terminology  00 gauge for 16.5 mm in 1936. Of course Lionel also used 00 gauge but they used 19 mm. Generally nowadays the terminology 00 gauge is used for the Bing Table Railway.

Lot of interesting stuff about Gauge and Scale for Toy and Model-trains in my (free )book on the subject: http://sncf231e.nl/gauge-and-scale/

Regards

Fred

Note: Table by Henry Greenly (engineer at Bassett Lowke) from 1924:

ok, i actually thought the NMRA defined the scale in 1935/36 when they started establishing standards.  i recall reading through some old MR mags once and remember the references to "that scale will never catch on".

OF: I also recall the NMRA establishing HO as an official gauge in the mid 1930's.

Tinplate Art posted:

FYI: I put a request via phone call to the NMRA National Headquarters here in Tennessee for the date of the establishment of HO as an official gauge. Will report the answer here later today.

Thank you, that would be most interesting.

I had read in the 1956 issue of Collecting Model Trains by Louis Hertz : "What is known in American as HO gauge is usually called OO in Europe". I did not understand this since in 1956 H0 was used in continental Europe and OO in the UK. I now assume Louis Hertz was using HO not as a recent terminology but as a known gauge terminology for years already in the US while in continental Europe still 00 (or OO) was used until the beginning of the fifties (but not in 1956). I mentioned in my book: "I have tried to write this book as a history and global inventory of gauge and scale. Although this is a worldwide overview it is of course subjective caused by my geographical background." No excuse but an explanation

Regards

Fred

FRED: NO problem, my friend! I believe the late Hal Carstens also discussed the origin of HO as a term in his book, 150 Years of Model Trains, which is on my bookshelf at home, but not accessible at the moment, as I am undergoing my dialysis treatment! It is essentially ambulatory life support! LOL!

FATMAN: VERY NICE clockwork loco!

Heh Heh , I first thought when I replied above with my clockworks to mention the whole HO/OO debate ... I think in actuality the term would probably have been "Bing Table Railway/Tischbahn" size as @sncf231e pointed out ... as it was the pioneer of its size in Great Britain anyway... Its interesting tho that nothing is ever "official" until an American puts their stamp on it retrospectively 

In the USA HO was used as terminology (as OVERLANDFLYER and TINPLATE ART mentioned) before 1951. So I have to rewrite (again) a paragraph in my book.

I looked further in the books and found in a 1950 copy of the Model Railroader Cyclopedia (Kalmbach) a listing of NMRA standards including HO (16.5 mm)  and OO (19 mm). And in a book from 1970 by David Sutton called The Complete Book of Model Railroading I found a bit more on the history. An HO gauge railroad was displayed at the Chicago world fair (1933/34)  and Eric La Nal, Alfonse Bacon and  George Stock  (based on developments in England is mentioned)  introduced HO in the USA in 1936. So HO (as terminology) for the 16.5 mm gauge was used in the USA years before it was used in Europe, since there from the mid thirties 16.5 mm was called OO in England and 00 in Germany. 

And now back to running trains (and having a beer)! Here is my H0/HO/OO/00 BING Miniature Tischbahn running with the original transformer:

Regards

Fred

Hello all ...great photos thank you 

Daniel ..any dates of manufacture on the JEP sets ?  thank you 

Ok after 20 minutes of exhaustive research .

Alexander catalog 2nd ...so 1930 ... Bing sets listed for $5.00 ...sold as "OO"

1934 was the year  OO ( in America)  began a HO ....  Model Railroader ... George Stock , Philadelphia, Pa ...( to become a huge advocate for HO) ...April,  George introduces his D&O Diminutive & Obstinate RR  as OO  (5/8" gauge) ...two months later it has changed magically to HO .June,  George is running ads to handle all your HO needs .  July   the staff at MR feel the need to clarify the air with an article spelling out   the different gauges and scales encase you missed a month . 

Nason of NYC takes on the charge of  real OO gauge ... 

Battle between OO and HO forces would bubble to the surface in 1936.  

Cheers Carey 

just a reading tip for old MR mags... before you quote anything, it is a good idea to go forward by one or two issues and look at the letters pages.  this is not a comment on anything in this string, but just something i picked up as a read through a few years.  not all articles fall into this category, but some important corrections are noted, and you have to be comprehensive in your research to track them all down.

Carette had made 1911 trains in this size too, but only as sliding train without motor. In the catalog is only the lenght, for example loco with tender and one coach 6 1/2 "

I have a matching Carette station, which looks good with the Bing table train.

Arne

FYI: Alan Lake Rice wrote quite a few articles extolling the advantages of HO modeling in the 1930's under the pseudonym of Eric LaNal. He got started with HO in the 1920's. Allan Lake Rice served for years with the US State Dept. and later became a college professor. The NMRA was established in Milwaukee, WI in 1935, and presumably, shortly thereafter, set up standards for the existing gauges. Actual date for HO adopted as a gauge by the NMRA to be forthcoming.

Hello Carey, JEP made those trains from 1926 to 1933-34, in fact they didn't have a great success, too small and also too expensives, the price was equivalent to mid range O gauge trains.

Very best, Daniel

Nice piece here on Allan Lake Rice.

http://www.guidetozscale.com/html/eric_lanal.html

Miketg

NOTE: His tenure with the U.S. State Dept. is documented in Hal Carstens' 150 Years of Model Trains. The NMRA Distinguished Service Award in 1962 was a major recognition of his contributions to the development of miniature scale trains, particularly HO gauge. Another pioneer, though in O scale, was Carl Auel, who had developed a very authentic cast freight car truck frame with inside ribbed wheels and working springs in the early 1930's.

As a former English Professor, I was fascinated by Alan's use of an anagram of his name for a pseudonym. By rearranging the letters in his actual name (Alan Lake Rice), he created Eric LaNal, using all the letters in his name except the K. Brilliant, then again, he was a German language Professor!

QUESTION: Is it correct to state that the Bing Tischbahn (tabletop railway) was the FIRST manufactured HO gauge model railway offered for sale in 1922?

Today, I put a research request into the NMRA archival folks regarding the origin (date) of HO being first established by their organization as an official standard gauge. The nice person I submitted my phone request to stated it would take a little time to get a reply to my query. They have my name and cell number. I will keep the Forum advised.

I rummaged through my back issues of Model Railroader and found this item on page 14 of Volume 1 #3 for March 1934

" Persons interested in HO gauge are asked to correspond with W.S. Hofford, 451 S. Clela Ave, Los Angeles, Calif., in regard to forming an HO correspondence club...He is building the Anonymous Northern," which will run from Santa Bingo to Hotdawg."

  and further down on the same page we have...

  "We have been asked to distinguish between the various small gauges and scales, about which there is some confusion. OO is the designation for 3/4" gauge, 4 mm scale; HO is 5/8" gauge, 3.5 mm scale; and in addition there is the 1/8" scale with 5/8" gauge, commonly but erroneously called OO."

  So, the best I can offer is that it looks like HO predates the beginning of the publication of Model Railroader which would have been 1934.

RSB: Interesting and THANKS!

Marklin had made a 26mm ( 1") train between 1912-1928, this was called 00 too.

Arne

Arne: Did Marklin also use the term tischbahn for their 1" OO gauge trains? That gauge was really closer to.modern S gauge than either HO or OO.

Marklin had called them Liliput, probably named by the book Gullivers Travel.

Here a picture from the catalog 1925

In the Marklin book "50 years of H0" printed 1985, is a little bit history about train smaller than 0. Here pictures of a Marklin Liliput factory layout, the buildings was made by Marklin for this layouts only.

Arne

Does that or any factory Lilliput factory layout still exist today? As a former English Professor, I must respectfully correct the spelling of LILLIPUT, as it has THREE L's. I am a huge fan of Jonathan Swift,  still the most brilliant satirist in our language!

I know 3 of this factory layouts, one in the Swiss, one in Marklin museum  and one in the Peter Porsche (the car factory) museum.

Here a picture from the last year in the Porsche museum.

Arne

WOW! That is tres cool! THANKS for sharing!  ☺

I assume that Porsche factory layout is all original?