Conventional Mode Issue

Dirty track? Guessing that your running TMCC or DCS in conventional mode, it could be a signal strength issue and/or dirty track.

Maybe an added power feeder there on the slow section? 

Sounds like poor conductivity of the track joints and/or not enough power drops.

I am running in conventional mode only, at the moment.

Oh! It is all Lionel Fast Track too!

Like Gunrunnerjohn and Bob said above, check for dirty track, and possibly not enough power drops around the layout.  Also, what type of power supply are you using?

Also, if your switches are motorized, wire them up to a separate dedicated power supply and not directly off track power, if not already so.

It is a MTH Z-1000, and the dial has to be set at 75% to get thru those slow spots.

no powered switches all manual.

If I add a 2nd power drop, do I need something like this?

http://www.traintekllc.com/pro...Oel7kCFUXhQgod_gIA4w

No insult intended towards Rick O, but personally I feel that IDC, aka suitcase or quick splice connectors are evil.     Well, I suppose they could be considered reliable, but you must make sure you don't cheat and get the right ones rated by wire size.  I suppose for train layouts they're okay, but certainly don't trust them for automotive applications that's for sure but I digress. 

Remember that electrical power degrades over distance just like it does à la Ethernet.    The basic principle of running multiple feeder wires or drops to different places on your layout distributes the power more evenly and consistently, and is ideal for a medium-sized layouts as yours.    You can do this either via star-pattern (home run) or via bus as was used in the example by Rick above is your best bet.  This helps distribute the track power more evenly around your layout and eliminate "weak spots" as you're describing.

On my 8X15 layout, I have two loops with  four drops per loop; one drop in on each side (length) of the layout and one drop on each end (width).  They're approximately centered on each side or end, and I use star pattern wiring using MTH's (basically re-branded Miniatronics) distribution blocks.

Holy cow, and I thought my MTH RealTrax switches and track were bad.

I guess this is why many use Gargraves and Ross?

There is an "S" curve in the area where the slow down occurs as RoyBoy stated.

ok...so basically get an MTH Terminal Block and add a new power drop.

Any low cost alternatives? That MTH terminal block is $16-25 bucks.

How about these?

http://www.miniatronics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=TB4&Category_Code=&Product_Count=0

http://www.miniatronics.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=M&Product_Code=TB10&Category_Code=&Product_Count=1

<<<Fastrack has the worst connectivity from one section to another of any track in my experience>>>

Wow!  This is the exact opposite of almost every post describing Lionel's Fasttrack.  It is praised for it's conductivity over other track brands.  It's always a noise problem, never conductivity.  Something is amiss here.

I fully agree. I have never had the slightest hint of a connectivity problem with my FasTrack. And FasTrack switches are normally praised for their reliability too.

I have a temporary carpet layout, and it ran fine with just one drop on each of the 50 foot loops.  The voltage drop was about 1.5 volts on the far side.  I added another drop on the other side anyway, but it ran pretty good with just one drop.  This is Fastrack both new and used. 

To keep it simple, I would get these.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_159353...__?productId=3424670

For me, price is always an issue.

Trains will naturally slow down on curves because of the added friction.

The MTH block is just a fancy terminal strip.  You can do it with any common barrier strips.

Power degradation can and does occur regardless of track brand.  People with medium to large size layouts or with complex operations typically still have to add drops at different areas of their layouts to keep the power consistent, whether it's GarGraves, Ross, Atlas O, or FasTrack.

Yes, quality of track connections and the track itself plays a large role, but you still have resistance in that track that degrades electrical power over distance.  A 12 x 18 layout is going to have more impedance than a 4 X 8 layout.  The more track you use, the greater the impedance.

The trains are going to slow down in the S-Curve even with additional power drops.  You have opposing velocity vectors which cause additional drag and will require additional power if you are trying to maintain the same speed.  The tighter the curve the more pronounced the effect will be.

Here is an update...seems there are other issues.

The first issue is that I can hear "rubbing sounds(?)" on the curve after the slow spot.
It is still slow at this point, but not as slow, as it is also past the section where it goes from fast to slow. It is a gentle rubbing sound every train I own makes there....Odd, these are 48' curves.

Another issue, is that it seems my vintage post war 2343 and 2353's handle this slow spot a lot better than my recently purchased  Lionel 6-38103 Texas Special F-3. My Williams perform better over it as well, but it's still definately a slow spot.

Why would that 6-38103 handle it worse? 

Also, the TX Special 6-38103 requires more transformer power than even my vintage post war F3's from the 50's.

Thankfully, as soon as my Lionel command control unit arrives, it will be run in TMCC mode "only".

For an even worse issue, on the curve preceding the slow spot all my trains are fine on it, but my Williams E7 which the box states runs on O-31 curves (LOL), is raising it's truck on this first curve and shorting out.

It is a big engine that E-7, yet this is happening on a O-48 curve?

I wonder if that is a Williams typo...should be O-72?

Chuck, I am going to see if I can remove that S-Curve stand by....

Hi Chuck.

Is there any chance that you could post some photographs of your layout, especially the areas where you are having problems? 

Also, do the locomotives have the same problems when running alone, or is it only when they are pulling a train?

Information such as this might help us all to diagnose your problems better.

Thanks.

I am Vince lol.

Sure, BRB.

Oops.  Sorry Vince, I must put my glasses on more often. 

Here are the pics;

Thanks Vince.

After looking at your pictures it looks as though both of these problem areas are where you have curves on a change of grade. Is this correct? If so, it could well explain the problems.

It is supposed to be level, but there are some uneven spots.

Now where the slow down is, there is a slight unintentional grade going up, but in the picture you cannot see it, as its slight.

However, in the 2nd picture the camera is tilted, making it look like a grade in the background where it curves, but it's flat and not much of an issue there except for rubbing sounds.

Do you think that is enough to cause it?

These are all dual motor engines...

Hi again,

In regard to the S-Curve, you've actually got an effective double S-curve if you take the switch and the main curve into account. With a long or heavy train, this could well cause a slow down. in addition, any bumps close to rail joins could give enough of a hump to cause some wheel slippage as the weight is transferred.

As for the second problem, I've studied your photographs again, and it does look like you have enough of a hump almost directly on a rail joint to allow the leading wheels on a long truck to lift over the rail. You should be able to solve this with a little bit of shimming and/or sanding down in the affected area until it is just right. Using a straight edge on top of the track often helps to see any problems in these cases.

I hope that some of this may be of help. It looks as though you are going to have a great layout once these little teething troubles have been ironed out. 

Thanks for your help!

Someday I will actually get this layout done.

Next step is to add more sidings, as I am modeling Chicago's La Salle St Station on one end, as well as either a KC or St Louis station on the other side.

For best electrical performance I use a power drop about every fourth section of track, unless I have long track sections, then it is every third track section.

I have found Lionel's Fastrac to be elctrically challenged at the connections as well. So I traded off all my Fastrac for an MTH engine at a train show. Also Fastrac did not fit correctly for me when making an S curve with it, needed small fitter pieces and they were expensive to buy. Also gets dirty quicker then tubular track.

My comments about Fastrac; sing Aerosmith's song from the late 70's; No More, No More!

Sorry for the negative comments about Fastrac, but I experimented with it and have come to hate the stuff!

Lee Fritz

Lee, what did you use for your power drops?

The MTH terminal blocks or the Micronic's?

Wire nuts from Home Depot and 14 AWG wire.

Vince.

I am running about 120 feet of fastrack in 3 different lines I run dcs and

conventional on all three, it took a while but go under the layout and put

some jumpers about every four feet or so and see if that helps if not take

that part of the track up try another piece or two. I hope this helps you.

Don't give up just keep trying, it's a matter of time until you get it fixed.

Also look at the end of the track and make sure it is not bent.

         Mike.

where the transformer is the trains go faster and the farther away it goes it goes slower. you need to put a wire from the transformer to another part of your track. then it will have power and  volts.

I misunderstood. I thought he was talking about the track sections that you attach wires to. 

When you 2 guys howl between yourselves I get e mail going to flash

my name is SPLASH!

My experience with our old friend gravity was surprising. Trains would fly around one end of my small oval layout and crawl around the other end even with lots of drops. Then one day I noticed an MTH car rolling toward the fast end all by itself. How can that be? My table is perfectly leve! Yeah, the table was level but the house isn't and tilts toward the west. After shimming the table legs on the west side i have even speed all the way around. What surprised me was how little tilt was need for a very large speed variation with even small consist. So, my recommendation would be check your level carefully around the layout.

Do you all think this issue will go away when running TMCC or Legacy?

Remember, right now I am just running conventional, but as soon as the new Legacy set ships, I will be running that too.

Either way, I know I have a MTH terminal strip around here somewhere that I will use regardless.

Like most things in life, "It Depends".  

Command Control has constant voltage on the rails.  If this is an issue of physics (aka inertia) instead of electricity the problem will go away.  The constant voltage and closed loop speed control should cure the issues.  

If you actually have a power drop in that area of the track you'll still have one with command control but at a higher voltage.  If there aren't enough amps at the necessary voltage the trains will slow down irregardless of whether you run in conventional or command. 

Chipset.

There is a good chance it will because you will be applying

constant voltage through your track. As I said yesterday

if you can pull up one or two pieces of track in that spot and

make sure there is nothing wrong with your track the ends could

be crumbled up when you put it together or bent or just a bad

piece of track. Run a jumper from your transformer or more jumper

wires under your table you will find the problem don't give up. Mike.

I built my layout using Lionel tubular.  Rather extensive, a lot of track and switches, very few feeders.  I only connected the transformer near it and at the fartherest point, for all four blocks.

The first engines I ran were all command control and they all ran as expected.

I then ran a Postwar GG1 and Wow!  Several places it just slowed down, stopped even, unless I gave it more power.  When it happened it was usually around switches, crossovers, or Control Tracks.

I added feeders to the troublesome areas and the problem went away.  I believe running under command conrtol, with a constant 15-18V supplied to the rails masks trouble areas.

I can't take anymore these guys are so (smart) Mike.

Well, I added a drop to the slow section, and still the same issue in conventional mode.

I will check and see how it works under TMCC and legacy.

If you can, post a video of it - that would communicate moist clearly and give the best idea of the problem.

ok Lee will do!

 Check back when you get that TMCC report as to how it works then, but in the mean time how's all your track connections....the more sing;e pieces added in to a layout the more lil voltage drops one can get...add dirty track and that doubles. I'm not saying you've got dirty track, but there might be a few loose pins/tabs that aren't solidly connected as you'd need - maybe. 

When we run a short oval carpet layout quick fun- 0-36 curves and both sides are 30" singles, I get a slow corner, which tells me on such a small set up that my tabs{fastrack} are loose and not conducting that well. 

This is with a TMCC Engine using Legacy.

On the 2nd  lap I was running too fast, but on the 1st and 3rd laps I set it at a more reasonable speed and that is when the bad slowdown in that spot happens.

Power drops are in the yard where the GG1's are and also, in the slow section right before the observation car sitting on the side, but after the manual.

Also, did you see the flash on that switch at the end of the yard?

Why does it do that at random?

By the flash that I have seen looks like you have a BAD piece of track or a real bad short

that is fixing to happen. I would take a volt tester and start checking and

what size mth transformer are you using? Problem could be there are there any switches

on this part of your layout? If there is check them a short also and yes I did see the

flash ,look's like a bad connection or bad track. Mike.

Hi Splash, yep it is happening on a Lionel Fast Track switch.

It does not do it every time. I would estimate, once in 30 passes?

Using an MTH z-1000.

chipset.

Have you checked your voltage at that one spot and what is it as to the rest of the

layout. What I would do is change that one piece of track, and do the rest of your

engines do the same if the rest of your engines do it then it has to be there. And

if you can afford it try to go with the Z-4000 by mth that small brick is really to

small for what I have seen, please try your other engines before you invest in a larger

transformer but really how many feet of track are you running on that Z-1000?

          Mike.

Chipset.

I forgot to tell you please reply I would like to help if I can.

         Mike

ok, I will put a voltmeter too it.

It is an around the room layout, whatever size a standard room is.

In that video, all the trains on sidings, had those tracks turned off via block switches.

So only the main line was drawing current.

1.  When testing for voltage drop, you must have a substantial electrical load at the point where you are testing.  An unloaded circuit will always seem fine due to the high input resistance of the meter.

2.  Have you checked the gauge of the track compared to the gauge of the wheels on your locomotives?  Maybe your Texas Special has wider spaced wheels than the PW F3s.  I recently had a problem on a Christmas layout where the outer rails were pinched together a bit in the troublesome area.

 its all Lionel Fastrack, but the cars are Williams.

Chipset.

By the film I seen it had a flash on that one piece of track. I would really replace that switch and the piece of track before I ran any of your other engines it could cause

problems with the Williams locos in their boards and in the past I have had some problems with Williams cars and engines after Bachman bought them out. When you run the test do as the other guy said POWER IT UP to around 18 volts, be sure you take all your locos off the track when you run the volt test even your block could

be leaking and causing the test not to be wright. Good luck with the test and if you

measure your room you find out you have a lot of track down for that mth Z-1000

to me it is way to small. Lot's of luck.

          Mike.

The issue of slowing down on one part of my layout as well as the flash on a switch does not occur running Legacy Engines in Legacy mode.

Chipset.

The short is still there I seen it with my own eyes!

regardless of what mode you run your layout in. If

it not to much trouble change that piece of track or

switch and see what happens .Does it only happen

when you run the Texas engines with the Williams

passenger cars? Or try it without the cars and see what

happens sometimes you just cannot mix electronics.

Keep me informed please. Mike

Its the pullmor motors slowing down through the s curve, this is typical Pullmor motor characteristics. They slow on the slightest curve or incline as they have no cruise. If you go back to your other thread on these f3s watch the video of the "pullmor powered" f3s I posted. They slow in the same manner, and the slower you run them the more they will slow down on curves.

You may have a bit of a loose track connection where the spark is occurring. This is being exacerbated by the large amount of current being draw by the dual Pullmor motors in that loco.

Ricko

I agree about the pullmor motors I owned some of the lionel engines with those motors in them, and your right but I do not know if his other engines do the same I have yet to here from him on that matter don't you agree if the other engines do the same then there is another problem?

          Mike.

So basically, Legacy is working fine because it it using a signal thru the tracks as opposed to voltage aka the way conventional uses it?

I never expected Legacy to run so smooth even over the slow section...it is like its not even there.

No spark either!

Chipset.

Yes it does.

         Mike.

I would not give pullmore such a negative review as given.  Certainly not as good as a can motor with speed control, but my early Lionel TMCC steam and diesels pull very well, can move at slow speeds, and don't significantly slow down "in the slightest curves".  I can run two on the same loop, even mix conventional and TMCC on same loop and not have issues with over running an engine.

Is LEGACY better? Sure, but if you are having an issue with Pullmore, I would look at maintenance of the engine and motor.  G

I can only tell you that TMCC has the only issues on my layout.

Both MTH DCS and Lionel Legacy run perfect.

Is it the combo of the Pullmor motors and Legacy/TMCC?

Even my vintage pullmor locos run better than the new ones...but obviously in conventional mode only, which still has curve issues.