DCS Remote vs. App on issue with adding MTH engines

That video is not length edited so those are the real wait times when you have 5 TIUs!!!  WIU1 to WIU5 are all wired with ethernet in our setup.... so as I understand it... that's as fast as it can possibly go.

By the time the read is over.... the senior members have fallen asleep, and the junior members have lost interest and wandered off....

My setup is similar and I have no issues whatsoever adding engines to either the remote or the app:

• 3 Rev. L TIUs in Super TIU mode.
• Each WIU is connected via an Ethernet cable to a switch. The switch is connected to an AirPost Express access point which communicates with the AirPort Extreme router downstairs.
• Each WIU is assigned a static IP address (10.0.1.96 - 10.0.1.98) based on its MAC address.
• WIU #1 is connected to TIU #1 via a USB cable. However, WIU #2 and WIU #3 are connected to their respective TIU's serial ports (see below for the reason) via a USB to Serial cable.

The reason I use a USB to Serial cable for two of the WIU/TIU combinations is the following.

I have always had a long (40') serial ribbon cable that goes from the PC in the train room work area, around the layout to where the TIUs are located. When it's DCS upgrade time, I connect the serial cable from the train room to the serial port jumper cable connected to the TIU. I also have extension cables to jumper together the ProtoCast and ProtoDispatch ports. Then I can upgrade the TIUs in place.

When I first began using the app, I connected the USB ports of each TIU to its respective WIU. However, I encountered a situation where when certain commands were issued to an engine on TIU #2 or TIU#3, the WIU would "go out to lunch" for up to 30 seconds or so. TIU #1 didn't have this problem and the remotes worked fine.

After eliminating everything else, to my surprise I found that the problem was finally resolved by removing the long serial extension cable  from TIU #2 and TIU #3 serial ports, even though this cable was absolutely a straight-through, 9-pin cable with nothing attached to its other end.

TIU #1 was unaffected, seemingly because it connected to a Legacy command base using an MTH #50-1032 cable.

I now have TIU's #2 and #3 connected to their respective WIUs using a USB to Serial cable with a 2-port splitter for connecting the long serial ribbon cable when its upgrade time.

If you have anything dangling from the serial ports of your TIUs perhaps removing it would help to resolve the problem.

Interesting that you bring up the serial port cable problem. For years I've always had a cable connected between a TIU and PC serial port...mainly for loading soundfiles.

Lately I've completely reconfigured my layouts and PC as the serial port card is gone.

I've noticed that the DCS signal on my RevL fixed 1 out now remains strong...hmmm....coincidence? 

Barry Broskowitz posted:

If you have anything dangling from the serial ports of your TIUs perhaps removing it would help to resolve the problem.

Yeap. I leave my TIU connected to my old computer most of the time after upgrades. However this usually just happens to be my TIU #1. So I believe I've avoided this issue?

I will test it anyways.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

My setup is similar and I have no issues whatsoever adding engines to either the remote or the app:

• 3 Rev. L TIUs in Super TIU mode.
• Each WIU is connected via an Ethernet cable to a switch. The switch is connected to an AirPost Express access point which communicates with the AirPort Extreme router downstairs.
• Each WIU is assigned a static IP address (10.0.1.96 - 10.0.1.98) based on its MAC address.
• WIU #1 is connected to TIU #1 via a USB cable. However, WIU #2 and WIU #3 are connected to their respective TIU's serial ports (see below for the reason) via a USB to Serial cable.

The reason I use a USB to Serial cable for two of the WIU/TIU combinations is the following.

I have always had a long (40') serial ribbon cable that goes from the PC in the train room work area, around the layout to where the TIUs are located. When it's DCS upgrade time, I connect the serial cable from the train room to the serial port jumper cable connected to the TIU. I also have extension cables to jumper together the ProtoCast and ProtoDispatch ports. Then I can upgrade the TIUs in place.

When I first began using the app, I connected the USB ports of each TIU to its respective WIU. However, I encountered a situation where when certain commands were issued to an engine on TIU #2 or TIU#3, the WIU would "go out to lunch" for up to 30 seconds or so. TIU #1 didn't have this problem and the remotes worked fine.

After eliminating everything else, to my surprise I found that the problem was finally resolved by removing the long serial extension cable  from TIU #2 and TIU #3 serial ports, even though this cable was absolutely a straight-through, 9-pin cable with nothing attached to its other end.

TIU #1 was unaffected, seemingly because it connected to a Legacy command base using an MTH #50-1032 cable.

I now have TIU's #2 and #3 connected to their respective WIUs using a USB to Serial cable with a 2-port splitter for connecting the long serial ribbon cable when its upgrade time.

If you have anything dangling from the serial ports of your TIUs perhaps removing it would help to resolve the problem.

Hey, all 5 TIU Serial ports are totally bare here.

I don't have a static IP, its setup by DHCP, but I guess that's something to try quickly.

The really sad part for us is if you power down the TIU4 & TIU5 and their WIUs, that crazy long delay for each read becomes a lot more reasonable (down to 5-10 seconds), so it seems like it's intrinsic to having the 5 TIU system. Why the delay of (5 TIUs) is averaging 6-12X the delay of (3 TIUs) is something I don't understand. You'd expect it to go up by 5/3 in terms of packet traffic volume, right???  The only way to explain it is when  you go from 3 to 5 the probability of packet collision goes up super exponentially, but that doesn't make sense because each TIU is on a different router port, and routers unlike dumb ethernet hubs, only route corresponding traffic to each port (so 5 nodes on 5 ports shouldn't have any ethernet collisions).

The impact for us is kinda serious:

Sometimes when you put the phone in your pocket, or switch away from DCS to browse (in our case turning off wifi since our club doesn't have an internet connection)  you need to do a read again when you come back before you regain control.With the long 1min delay you can't quickly react to a developing problem situation if you don't already have the app open and you usually get a train wreck while waiting for the read to finish.

all 5 TIU Serial ports are totally bare here.

Them why not try a "Hail Mary" - replace the USB cables between the TIUs and WIUs with USB to Serial cables. It should make no difference, however, you never know...  

Joe,

However this usually just happens to be my TIU #1. So I believe I've avoided this issue?

That most likely acts just like my Legacy Command Base connected to my TIU #! and makes things "right".

If you ever leave that cable connected at the TIU but disconnect it from the PC, and bad things happen with the app, you'll know for sure!  

I forget the exact details of this but here goes.

I kept having troubles adding a used engine that I bought to my outdoor layout. I believe that I had renumbered or swapped around my TIUs outside. So at this time I had 2 issues I remember. The battery on the new engine had died and was not charging. I swapped to a BCR and for some reason the board didn't like that either.

But I had tried to delete and re-add a good engine and that did not work either.

 The second issue was that the TIUs were numbered 2 and 3 if I remember? A new DCS release at that time had some issue when there was no number 1 TIU available to add a new engine to. So any message or issue adding an engine took what seemed like 5 minutes to get a response from the remote on.

 Barry suggested that I renumber the TIUs and have a #1. I think the remote also had another TIU listed that it could not find (in the house unpowered).

So between these 2 issues, the system would just lock up for so long that I couldn't stand it. After talking with Barry by email, I deleted some TIUs from the remote and renumber the other. The system came alive. Of course that problem engine had to be fixed as well.

Barry maybe able to clarify some of this as it was maybe 2 years back? It had something to do with the #1 TIU slot. Bug or not?

Joe,

The second issue was that the TIUs were numbered 2 and 3 if I remember? A new DCS release at that time had some issue when there was no number 1 TIU available to add a new engine to. So any message or issue adding an engine took what seemed like 5 minutes to get a response from the remote on.

This was not a bug at all. It's just the way DCS works. Whenever DCS looks for an engine to add, it looks at all of the TIUs of which it's aware, i.e., the list of TIUs in the remote doing the add.

If this remote has a TIU in its list that isn't available, i.e., not powered up in range of the remote, and if the remote looks for that TIU prior to fining an engine that it can add, it can spend a loooong time looking for that TIU.

 Barry suggested that I renumber the TIUs and have a #1.

Doing so eliminated the remote searching for a TIU that wasn't there, and also eliminated the long delay.

Hi Adrian: I watched your real time video, this was very helpful. Yesterday I programed a new RailKing Locomotive to my layout. I noticed you have the handheld controller setting next to your Wi-Fi device.  Maybe there is some kind of interference going on. I am going to show my steps for Adding a MTH Engine to an iPhone. (I programed the handheld controller first, No Chaos).

Gary

Thanks Barry! Yes, I might have just deleted #1 and any other that wasn't getting power outside then.

I guess I should clarify that this was posted for others that may have issues with timely adding in general!

Gary,

If your post was intended to instruct Adrian regarding the "right way" top add an engine using the DCS App, rest assured that Adrian isn't doing anything wrong from a process perspective.

Although the steps to add an engine are very simple and straightforward, you may not understand that there's a lot that happens "under the hood" every time one attempts to add an engine. 

Although, in my experience, the app performs very well, be aware that the software is in its infancy and has not been "in the wild" long enough to become rock-solid. There are still known issues and unknown issues that can cause problems. MTH is aware of, and is working to correct, known issues. However, I am confident that there will be more "opportunities for improvement" that will present themselves as time goes on.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

all 5 TIU Serial ports are totally bare here.

Them why not try a "Hail Mary" - replace the USB cables between the TIUs and WIUs with USB to Serial cables. It should make no difference, however, you never know...  

Hi Barry, I own a lot of USB to serial converters now but I'm still stuck in the same place on the app.

However your mention of the static IP is interesting and I made an interesting discovery.... in the 5 TIU system the read is much faster if the TIUs 1-5 have static IPs in accending order. They don't need to be consecutive x.x.x.1 x.x.x.2 and so on..... just monotonically increasing. In this config the read is down to 10 seconds from over a minute. I changed it back and forth 5-6 times to be sure it wasn't coincidence..... the ip order definitely had a big effect.

I still get the timeout, but it comes much faster now so that's a start I guess. I'll keep poking it this week. 

Adrian

Adrian,

What happens if you have less than 5 TIUs/WIUs powered up? Can you then add engines.?

Hey Barry,

It adds engines totally fine with 3 TIUs. Totally solid. With 4 it works but intermittently. With 5 it just doesn't happen.... It always times out. As a work around I've been powering down two TIUs to add the engines then put them back after. Once the engine is actually on the engine list you can move it between inactive and active without a problem, it's just getting it added that's the issue.

On a quiet day when it's just me, powering down 2 TIUs will work, but when the club has lots of people running trains, that's not really going to be an answer.

Cheers!

~Adrian

Adrian,

It really is starting to sound like a bug. I can’t attempt to replicate it since I only own 4 WIUs. 

I strongly urge you to use More.../App Settings/ Contact Support to file a bug report.

Hi Adrian:  (1) Why do you have the handheld controller next to your Wi-Fi device during the Add Engine to your Wi-Fi device?   (2) There are 202 model railroader showing how to use and or programing the Wi-Fi on YouTube.

YouTube is the worlds second largest search engine, I was unable to find anyone on YT using your process, but I have not watched them all.

I am only programing one TIU, but I turnoff the handheld controller during, the ADD Engine Process with my iPhone.  This means that only my iPhone is talking to the TIU.  This is just a guess but maybe the handheld controller is the issue. Turn off the handheld controller & than do the ADD Engine.  MTH is always telling us that we no longer need the handheld controller.

Hope this helps, there is a large learning curve for MTH DCS Wi-Fi, I have been keeping a note book on all these issues that pop up on the OGR Forum, starting back to April of 2017.

Gary: Look forward to seeing how this issue is resolved.

Gary,

I am only programing one TIU, but I turnoff the handheld controller during, the ADD Engine Process with my iPhone.  This means that only my iPhone is talking to the TIU.

That's completely and totally unnecessary for two reasons:

• First, neither device initiates a conversation with the TIU on its own. In order to "talk" to the TIU on either device, it's necessary to enter a command on that device. Further, the TIU itself is incapable of initiating a conversation at all.
• Second, the DCS App cannot talk directly to the TIU. It can only communicate with the TIU via the WIU's 2.4 GHz radio. The TIU only has a 900 MHz radio and the smart device does not have a 900 MHz radio.

This is just a guess but maybe the handheld controller is the issue. Turn off the handheld controller & than do the ADD Engine.

It's an erroneous guess. The remote being on has absolutely no effect on anything that the DCS App is doing.

MTH is always telling us that we no longer need the handheld controller.

Really? MTH is staying no such thing.

Barry Broskowitz posted:

Adrian,

It really is starting to sound like a bug. I can’t attempt to replicate it since I only own 4 WIUs. 

I strongly urge you to use More.../App Settings/ Contact Support to file a bug report.

Just did that! We'll see if they can find it in a new release....

As always thanks for your thoughts!

Adrian