Dreyfuss hudson issue, takes off

It may be a broken magnet on the tach reader. This is a common problem with TMCC Odyssey engines. There are a number of ways to repair this. Buy a new motor if available, replace the flywheel which requires a puller to get it off, or replace the motor driver with an ERR Cruise M.

It could also be a problem with engine not receiving the TMCC signal. Bad radio board or broken antenna wire (not likely).

Pete

Since it takes off in PGM, I don't think it's the flywheel sensor or magnets.  That's issue only surfaces after you crack the throttle in run mode.  Sounds like either no signal or a board issue.

Does the headlight blink when you power up?

Well the radio board had a leaked capacitor and the magnet ring was broken. Glued it back on, no chips, 3 peices, with caution... put a known good radio board in and all is well. It creeps pretty good, im not going to go any faster till I'm sure the glue is dried. 

I know it could be a gamble 

Be prepared to replace the magnet ring, it's very rare that a glue job lasts all that long on them.

If you want to stay with Odyssey this is one way to replace the magnet. Lionel sells magnets but to use them on the existing flywheel is not easy as the flywheel is a very tight fit and its easy to bend the motor shaft trying to put it back on. So Lionel offers the fix-it flywheel which is a looser fit and is held on with a set screw. If you already have a flywheel puller then this is most economical option. If you have to buy a puller then see if Lionel has the motor with flywheel for your engine.

Last option is just get an ERR Cruise M.

Pete

I haven't had any issues getting flywheels on and off, the worm gears is where I run into big problems!

Its not an issue if you have a puller. Most cost more than a replacement motor. Thats why I listed the options. I now have drill bits that will give a sliding fit so in the future I will just be reusing the old flywheel drilled and tapped for a set screw.

Pete

This engine is just full of gremlins. Now it runs fine, but will just stop randomly and I need to go to zero speed steps then crank it up again to get it moving..... guess its a cruise commander canadate.....

I think you need to check the handrails as they MUST have no continuity with the engine shell. Handrails serve as the antenna for the R2LC.

Ok, so I was going to put a cruise commander in this loco, and I can't get it to fit, even loose in the body. Any suggestions? Or do I buy a dcdr and call it a day?

You didn't need a full blown Cruise Commander only a Cruise M. If you think your R2LC is bad you can get those separately. You could still order a Cruise M and use the the R4LC that came with Cruise Commander. Then pick up another R4LC or R2LC C08 when needed. That way you won't have to tear everything out in the engine to fit the CC.

Pete

This engine also has running issues, i know the radio board works, i can do everything at low speeds, but as soon as I get moving at normal speed, the engine will stop, I rev it up and lunges forward then stop..... over heat issues? Bad FET in the dcdr? 

This has a DCDS for Odyssey. You said you tried to repair the magnet. I am surprised it runs at all. You probably are not getting consistant pulses from the magnet. I would suspect its a magnet issue, not a FET or triac.

The reason a CC or Cruise M was suggested was because it doesn't use the magnet. It lets you keep the existing motor in place. 

Thats why choices were given, new magnet or ERR board but you wouldn't need both.

Pete

Another choice is to simply do the flywheel repair correctly.  You can either pull the flywheel and glue a new replacement magnet on and replace the flywheel, or buy the Lionel "fix-it" flywheel and magnet and replace what's there.

FWIW, IMO gluing the magnet ring is never a long term solution.  I've seen a bunch of people try, longest I've ever seen it last is less than a year before it self-destructs again.

Truthfully, biggest issue is getting the flywheel off, putting them back on is easy if you own a drill press, it does a decent job as a bench press.  Before I got a real press, I used my drill press to put wheels and flywheels on pretty regularly.

@Norton posted:

This has a DCDS for Odyssey. You said you tried to repair the magnet. I am surprised it runs at all. You probably are not getting consistant pulses from the magnet. I would suspect its a magnet issue, not a FET or triac.

The reason a CC or Cruise M was suggested was because it doesn't use the magnet. It lets you keep the existing motor in place. 

Thats why choices were given, new magnet or ERR board but you wouldn't need both.

Pete

 

It creeps just fine, which tells me the magnet is fine, it will cruise just fine at the beginning but after about 10-15sec of runtime, it stops.

It responds to control, which tells me the radio is fine. After it stops, I can see the headlight flicker as I give speed commands, then randomly (cool off) it will move down the rails, then stop again. 

I had the CC I bought for a MTH Y6b conversion. I thought of just putting it in the dreyfuss since it would fix all of the issues including the magnet ring. I guess I could take the heat sink off like John did, but I don't want to burn it up. 

You can't run it without a heatsink in something the size of the Dreyfuss, it'll smoke it in no time.

Really, you want the CC-M for this job if you're replacing the DCDS, you're doing it the hard way with the Cruise Commander.

BTW, just because it runs at low speed, that is NOT telling you the magnet and sensor is fine.  The spacing and magnetic force is more critical at higher flywheel RPM.

There's two ways to fix these.  One is to throw parts at it until it runs, the other is to diagnose the actual failure and replace that part.

I'm still not convinced it isn't the R2LC, did you swap that?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Another choice is to simply do the flywheel repair correctly.  You can either pull the flywheel and glue a new replacement magnet on and replace the flywheel, or buy the Lionel "fix-it" flywheel and magnet and replace what's there.

FWIW, IMO gluing the magnet ring is never a long term solution.  I've seen a bunch of people try, longest I've ever seen it last is less than a year before it self-destructs again.

Truthfully, biggest issue is getting the flywheel off, putting them back on is easy if you own a drill press, it does a decent job as a bench press.  Before I got a real press, I used my drill press to put wheels and flywheels on pretty regularly.

I think the driver board is bad too, the original radio board had a leaky cap, and a little burn mark on the underside of the shell, if that happens then the driver board may have taken a hit too. I used a spare radio board to do the testing, i was worried it may get fried if the driver board is bad..... do you think its as simple as a power FET overheating? I'd like to make the CC fit if possible.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You can't run it without a heatsink in something the size of the Dreyfuss, it'll smoke it in no time.

Really, you want the CC-M for this job if you're replacing the DCDS, you're doing it the hard way with the Cruise Commander.

BTW, just because it runs at low speed, that is NOT telling you the magnet and sensor is fine.  The spacing and magnetic force is more critical at higher flywheel RPM.

There's two ways to fix these.  One is to throw parts at it until it runs, the other is to diagnose the actual failure and replace that part.

I'm still not convinced it isn't the R2LC, did you swap that?

So a CC M is a drop in replacement? Yea, guess I will save the CC for the big Y6b. I will order a CC-M, glad I didn't cut anything yet! 

Thanks, I'm still learning all the products ERR has. It says generic as the CC-M type, is that the one I want?

Thanks again

You want this one.

Cruise Commander M Kit - Generic Modular TMCC
(Works for Steam & Diesel) With or Without IR Tether         99.95
 

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

There's two ways to fix these.  One is to throw parts at it until it runs, the other is to diagnose the actual failure and replace that part.

Sounds like we're taking the throw parts at it course.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You want this one.

Cruise Commander M Kit - Generic Modular TMCC
(Works for Steam & Diesel) With or Without IR Tether         99.95
 

Sounds like we're taking the throw parts at it course.

I just don't want to deal with the old odyssey and a magnet issue again. I thought better performance was had by using the CC-M?

The motherboard is the only unknown, but other than a dielectric stain from the cap, its pretty simple to ring out.

I have the Y6b and a T1 reading to upgrade too. The T1 is a pullmoor. So I have a ac commander for it. It has RS4, so should be a nice runner. The Y6b will need some new lamps or wire some in series then replace the headlight and backup light. Fun fun

You will get better low speed performance with the CC-M, that is true.  You get even better performance by buying a brand new Legacy model, but that's just throwing even more money at the problem.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You will get better low speed performance with the CC-M, that is true.  You get even better performance by buying a brand new Legacy model, but that's just throwing even more money at the problem.

I got this basket case for $50. So I'm still ahead of the game.

Some stanchions were broke on the antenna, I was just going to ca glue them, any RF issues with that?

No RF issues, but I think you're going to find that the CA adhesive doesn't adhere to that type of plastic well.  Been there, done that, didn't work that well.

What the better glue to use?

I haven't found a glue that works well on those.  They appear to be Polypropylene which obviously seems impervious to CA adhesive, it's what the Loctite CA adhesive is packaged in!

Loctite All-Plastic Super Glue is supposed to work with Polypropylene, I am going to have to try that on my broken handrails.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I haven't found a glue that works well on those.  They appear to be Polypropylene which obviously seems impervious to CA adhesive, it's what the Loctite CA adhesive is packaged in!

Loctite All-Plastic Super Glue is supposed to work with Polypropylene, I am going to have to try that on my broken handrails.

Thats what I have, will let you know

Where are the stanchions broken, at the stalk or around the handrail? If the latter just put a dab of JB Weld around the handrail.

Pete

At the base, going into the engine

Lionel has some replacements whenever they get back online. 

https://www.lionelsupport.com/...tanchion&match=0

Pete

Thanks pete

I was looking at the CCM manual before I get it, the black 4 pin motor connector is easy enough to transfer from the 6 pin I have now. The mother board breaks everything out nicely. But aside from the stright white 4 position connector (which I assume i can leave in the order its in), I don't see where to connect the serial from the CCM to. I would doubt that splicing it into the IR is correct. Can you help out someone thats over thinking it?

If you look again at the manual, you'll see they supply a 10-pin connector with two wires.  The wire in pin-1 of that connector is routed to pin-24 of the R2LC socket to pick up the serial data.

I think there are some examples in the manual but I and most others solder the wire to the connector pin the R4LC plugs into at pin 24. Pin 24 is at the opposite end and row from pin 1 which is identified with the square circuit contact vs round for all the rest.

edit, what John said.

Pete

Ok thanks guys. Yea without having it in front of me, it was hard to visualize. Now the 4 pin connector from the motherboard to the old driver, do I need to move pins around for the CCM? The wires are 1 to1, in the harness.

The white 4-pin connector is the same, just plug it into the CC-M.

This train is a pain. So I installed the CCM, now it keeps tripping the breaker every time I connect center rail power to the power input of the 4 pin and 2 pin black molex plugs.

There are two black wires that provide power from the main driver area. One rings out to the rollers the other is soldered to the mother board to where the chuff switch would go.

If I leave the hot disconnected to the molex plugs, just the lights energize. As soon as the hot is connected, trips the power.

Any ideas?

So I pulled the 4pin molex off the ccm, no trip, pulled all connectors off the ccm and just plugged the 4 pin molex in, trip again, looked at the back of the board, no shorts. Could I just have a bad ccm? Resistance between hot and ground on the ccm is a 1.3m ohms using a fluke process meter even with the board off the engine.

could it be grounding out through the FETs?

I have no idea what you have at this point.  I can only suspect that something got wired incorrectly and you're cooking stuff.  Clearly, something is very wrong.  Reminds me of an old saying I had hanging over my desk at work...

If you think experts are expensive, wait until you see what amateurs cost you!

That comment was neither required or desired. Im a controls engineer for the nuclear world, this hobby is the one thing I don't want to keep trouble shooting problems that are not my own. I do 60-75hrs a week of that.

Reminds me of a saying too: Treat others as you would like to be treated.

Engineers with that attitude you have, don't last very long in my world. 

oh, by the way, its a ccm board issue, but thanks for assuming its my fault....

Ok, that was a little harsh, sorry.

@Coalguy posted:

oh, by the way, its a ccm board issue, but thanks for assuming its my fault....

You're saying you bought a new CCM and it was already bad?  I guess I'm having a hard time believing that it came out out the package bad.  I use a lot of these boards, it's certainly not something I see here.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Ok, that was a little harsh, sorry.

You're saying you bought a new CCM and it was already bad?  I guess I'm having a hard time believing that it came out out the package bad.  I use a lot of these boards, it's certainly not something I see here.

Thanks

The next thing is removing the ccm, remove the heatsink and all wiring except the 4 pin power plug and hooking it directly to the power supply. Maybe its grounding out somewhere? Resistance to the power input on the ccm is 1.3mohms, and 20kohms across the motor leads. Seems like it would work. ROY from royz trains said he had one keep shorting out, but it was somehow related to the wiring of the older odseay board. He wants me to send it back. 

I admit the electronics portion of my EE is weak as I am a power engineer. Then at westinghouse found my calling as a controls engineer during reactor refuel and fuel repair.

Seems that err needs to trim the tails on the FETs, they looked shorted out. Trimmed them down, but dont have time to test right now.

All the tails.....

I hope the FETs made it...... this was on the lionel heatsink, FYI to you guys....

Interesting comment.  Scott told me that one of the issues he's had with RS Commanders is the foam tape is too thin and the connector pins project too far out and short to the chassis.  That's apparently the chief source of returns for the RSC.

When I get any of these boards, I trim all the projecting leads before installation, it's just part of the routine.  I haven't seen them be long enough to short on the CC-M, but I suspect I haven't seen every heatsink configuration either.

FWIW, when my boards come from China, I have to trim leads as well.

@Coalguy posted:

Seems that err needs to trim the tails on the FETs, they looked shorted out. Trimmed them down, but dont have time to test right now.

Thanks for the heads up. I still have some in stock and have not had to order from Scott yet. I wonder if they are coming from the same supplier since Scott took over?

Pete

@Norton posted:

Thanks for the heads up. I still have some in stock and have not had to order from Scott yet. I wonder if they are coming from the same supplier since Scott took over?

Pete

I don't know, but I will say, stay away from that Rayz trains, ordering from him was my first mistake.

Just got some in a couple days ago.  They need trimming.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Just got some in a couple days ago.  They need trimming.

Do you get your stuff direct from ERR? That Ray guy is a real peice of work. Im done with him and his aggression toward customers. I guess the customer is always wrong in his eyes, then berates me when I told him about the leads being too long. Like I'm the one responsible for completing the work....

Yes, I buy direct as I'm an ERR dealer.

FWIW, the older CC-M units from ERR before Lionel closed it down also had the same unclipped leads, I still have a couple of those around, they look just like my previous picture.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Yes, I buy direct as I'm an ERR dealer.

FWIW, the older CC-M units from ERR before Lionel closed it down also had the same unclipped leads, I still have a couple of those around, they look just like my previous picture.

Am I allowed to buy from you? And the super chuffer?

Sure, drop me a line on my profile email address.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Sure, drop me a line on my profile email address.

Thanks, I will. One more question. I have brown and grey for the DC motor leads, any idea whats pos and neg so I dont have to redo the leads if I get it wrong?

The colors aren't always consistent.  Brown and gray are not the norm.  I just make sure to take notice of where I got the wire so I can match it to the new board.  Even then I don't always get it right and have to swap them.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The colors aren't always consistent.  Brown and gray are not the norm.  I just make sure to take notice of where I got the wire so I can match it to the new board.  Even then I don't always get it right and have to swap them.

Got the CCM installed, still have radio issues, antennas are infinite to chasis, but I noticed the radio board doesn't really fully seat on the header socket. The shell has to be hitting it and it works its way loose. Probably why the last radio board had a blown capacitor and scortch mark on the inside of the shell. Do I need a mother board that has deeper pins? I'm at a loss, I can't believe lionel would let this fly....

Thanks

A pic

Its actually less common for the R2LC to seat fully against the mother board. In most cases there as actually more pin showing. In fact thats the area where I usually solder the wire to pin 24 to run to the Cruise M. Just trim off the excess pins sticking through the board and cover with electrical tape or duct tape.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Its actually less common for the R2LC to seat fully against the mother board. In most cases there as actually more pin showing. In fact thats the area where I usually solder the wire to pin 24 to run to the Cruise M. Just trim off the excess pins sticking through the board and cover with electrical tape or duct tape.

Pete

Its barely engaged with the pins, maybe I need to figure out why the board is angled up?

The tallest cap usually hits the board and keeps it from being horizontal.

I just went and checked my supply of Cruise Ms, about 8. None sourced from 3rd Rail. None have the protruding pins shown in the pictures above. They appear to have been trimmed by machine barely above the solder. I have to suspect these are now being sourced from a different supplier.

Pete

Could be Pete, I can't really say.  I have some of the Lionel back-EMF boards, those are trimmed pretty close.  I just check over any board I'm installing and trim if necessary.  Many times, I trim the back of the R2(4)LC closely as well, I put them in places where there isn't much clearance at times.  I use a thin sheet of Styrene to insulate the back.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

The tallest cap usually hits the board and keeps it from being horizontal.

There was a capacitor under the mother board that was propping it up, one lead broke at the solder as soon as I moved it. Put heat shrink on the leads and moved it over so the board will sit flat. Running it now, also noticed it doent like running next to the baseboard heat, hydronic, really good ground plane. Any time I command it near it, the sound gets garbled and chuffs go out of sync.

@Coalguy posted:

Any time I command it near it, the sound gets garbled and chuffs go out of sync.

Could be electrical interference.  I was having all sorts of issues with a DCS locomotive on my workbench one day, and I discovered my LED strip lights powered with a switching power supply was injecting massive electrical noise into the track signal!  Turned off the lights and everything fell into place and worked fine.

Thanks guys, yea she is sensitive loco. Once I get my real layout done, lots of these issues will probably go away.

Got to be the antenna, if I already didn't take this thing appart 6 times, I'd try only one hand rail to see if it improves, but oh well.

If the antenna isn't grounded to the frame, it should be good.  Don't try to remove one side, that won't help the running.