This is going to take a MONUMENTAL effort.

The building is laden with asbestos, lead, and other hazardous materials. Let alone water has been pouring in through the floors and its foundation for years.

The Detroit City Council has declared it to be torn down.

"In 2013, the Detroit City Council passed a resolution that ordered Moroun to destroy the landmark building, which is on the National Register of Historic Places. The Morouns ignored the order.

The estimated cost to renovate the 18-story building is somewhere between $100 million to $300 million, Moroun officials have said in the past."

I don't think Ford knows the details if the building has some major structural issues or not. So the investigation continues.

The building has not only suffered from missing a roof but multiple fires have damaged it as well...

 

wow - a real temple of transportation.  hope Ford is selling a lot of SUV'S and pick-up trucks.  

Here are some videos of the site...

USPS actually renovated their distribution facility next door and its looking up to date.

Restoration on the building has started a few years back with replacing the windows...

Questions were asked 6 years ago on how would this building be use effectively today...

 

I'm all for preserving history but that needs to go away.  The cost would be prohibitive to bring this up to date.

Here is an informative video as well. A lot has already been restored in recent years.

I remember going to the station when I was young with my Dad to pick up family from Pittsburgh. If it comes back to even half of its former glory, it sure would be nice.

The one nice thing about FORD, being a large corporation, the tax write offs would offset a lot, and bringing back buildings of historical significance adds to their ties with the city. It would likely be a magnet for many industries looking for headquarters in the city, especially if Detroit had a plan for starting taxes low as industry returned and not choke the Golden Goose from the start. Baltimore did a lot of this type of rebuilding in their inner harbor years ago and reclaimed some of downtown, Detroit needs a boost and get back to being an industrial hub.

From

Ford pursues deal to buy, redevelop Michigan Central Station

By KIRK PINHO & CHAD LIVENGOOD  -  Crain's Detroit Business

• Sources: Automaker in talks with Morouns' Crown Enterprises over dilapidated Detroit building
• Ford has bought The Factory nearby to house about 200 employees
• Former train station has been empty for about three decades

Detroit radio stations are now reporting this story. Detroit's Mayor; Mike Duggan, may have a press conference. Took office 2014.

Gary - Rail-fanning from Detroit

The fact that this project is even being considered is an indication of what is going on in the City of Detroit.  Most folks not from SE Michigan don't really have any idea other than preconceived notions that really don't hold up today.  I'm hoping this happens, keeping some of the architecture from the last century alive is a good thing.

 

MichRR714 posted:

The fact that this project is even being considered is an indication of what is going on in the City of Detroit.  Most folks not from SE Michigan don't really have any idea other than preconceived notions that really don't hold up today.  I'm hoping this happens, keeping some of the architecture from the last century alive is a good thing.

 

I concur.   My niece plays softball for CMU up in Mt. Pleasant.   The couple times I've been out to visit, one of her teammates, from Detroit, would take us on little day trip tours around Detroit.   You are correct, what is still seen on media, is not a true picture of the revitalization going on.

 

Having grown up in Chicago, with relatives in Rochester, MI, Albion, MI, and Wooster, OH,  a lot of my youth was spent all over that part of the midwest.   I am excited to see this happening in Detroit.

trainroomgary posted:

From

Ford pursues deal to buy, redevelop Michigan Central Station

By KIRK PINHO & CHAD LIVENGOOD  -  Crain's Detroit Business

• Sources: Automaker in talks with Morouns' Crown Enterprises over dilapidated Detroit building
• Ford has bought The Factory nearby to house about 200 employees
• Former train station has been empty for about three decades

Detroit radio stations are now reporting this story. Detroit's Mayor; Mike Duggan, may have a press conference. Took office 2014.

Gary - Rail-fanning from Detroit

The building has a fence and razor wire around it.   

It is nice to see an interest in revitalization though remediation will likely be a monumental task.    Hopefully all sides can work together to make it happen. 

A News Report from WXYZ TV - Detroit, Michigan

Click Here

Still no deal...........

Gary: Rail-fanning from Detroit

I am glad to see Detroit coming back.  The last time I was there some 30 years ago it was a sad place.

NH Joe

MichRR714 posted:

The fact that this project is even being considered is an indication of what is going on in the City of Detroit.  Most folks not from SE Michigan don't really have any idea other than preconceived notions that really don't hold up today.  I'm hoping this happens, keeping some of the architecture from the last century alive is a good thing.

 

Completely true!  The city has a long way to go to become what it once was, but it angers me when I hear out of towners talk down the city even though they have never, or at least not recently, visited.  There's a lot of good going on in Detroit, often in small pockets.  The Redford Theatre where I volunteer is one such gem.  The immediate neighborhood has seen several small business start and grow, partially due to the theater.  A small bakery opened in one of our retail storefronts and quickly outgrew it.  They now own and operate their business in a larger building across the street and are always lined up with customers.  Other such things have happened nearby as well.

 Ford is currently putting a lot of money into redevelopment in Dearborn, MI as well with several large construction projects going on around the city.  They've even created office space in portions of the somewhat empty Fairlane Mall complex.  

trainroomgary posted:

The last time I took the Amtrak from this station was 1989 - 90.  

 

It closed in January, 1988.   

SantaFe158 posted 

It closed in January, 1988.   

Hi SantaFe158

At my age it is all about CRS

Can't Remember Stuff or Can't Remember xxxxx  -  Take your pick 

Thanks for the free information.

Gary: Still out rail-fanning, just south-west of the Redford Theater.

1989-90. that recent? LOL! I haven't been on a train to Detroit since 1965!!!! The NYC was still going strong that year. Glad to see Ford step up.

Billy C

Sent from my iPhone

March 21, 2018,  Detroit Free Press

Ford Motor Company: “We are planting a special piece of our company's future in one of the city's great neighborhoods, because we believe in Detroit, its people and what we can build together.…

To Learn More: Click here   •    Maybe we will get the Big News Today

Gary: Having my morning cup of coffee and reading the Detroit Free Press at my local Speedway.

PS: Earning points for my next free lunch or fuel discount. 

I visited the BiCentennial Freedom Train in the shadow of the depot, 1976

The continuing saga: Michigan Central Station

Will Michigan Central Station in Detroit Soon Find New Life with Ford?

March 21, 2018 • Source: Associated Press, Detroit Day Magazine, & Detroit Free Press

The hope for many is that the building can soon also represent Detroit’s revitalization. But this isn’t the first time we’ve heard about plans to redevelop the train station, and each time this seems to come up, disappointment always seems to follow. 

Eric Kehoe, board president of Preservation Detroit, which seeks to preserve Detroit’s architectural and cultural heritage, joins Detroit Today Magazine to talk about the importance for the train station. He says the station has a rich history.

As of 8: PM today, no news is good news. Still no deal. If anyone knows what is going on please post here. Looks like we may be going into a news blackout.

Gary: Rail-fanning in Detroit

March 22, 2018

The continuing saga: Michigan Central Station

On Thursdays, Fridays and Sundays I have home delivery for the Detroit Free Press.

The Detroit Free Press is covering this story above the fold along with a full page feature article. My recommendation is if you live in Michigan,  you may want to pick up a copy.

Below are photos sent from my iPhone.

Page: 8A

Gary: Rail-Fanning in Michigan

Gary,

   Lets hope Ford makes it happen, could help the economy big time in that area.

PCRR/Dave

March 25, 2018 - Sunday Detroit Free Press

The continuing saga: Michigan Central Station

The Detroit Free Press is covering the Michigan Central Station this Sunday with two stories. (1) The Moroun Family History, their company owns the Michigan Central Station along with the Ambassador Bridge.  This bridge connects  Detroit, Michigan and Windsor, Ontario - Canada. (2) “Ford buying old station a pivotal moment” • “Will it happen?

My recommendation is if you live in Michigan,  you may want to pick up a copy.

Below are photos sent from my iPhone

Gary: Rail-Fanning in Michigan on my second cup of coffee.......

The images are far too small to read anything. Why not just link us to the story in the paper instead of all the pictures and arrows, like this:

FORD MICHIGAN CENTRAL STATION STORY

MATTY MOROUN BRIDGE STORY

OGR Webmaster posted:

The images are far too small to read anything. Why not just link us to the story in the paper instead of all the pictures and arrows, like this:

FORD MICHIGAN CENTRAL STATION STORY

MATTY MOROUN BRIDGE STORY

The Detroit Free Press has two sides at their e-newspaper: Free side and paid side.  Your first link takes you to this story that is several days old.

The second link takes you to the Moroun Family History, now on the Free Side, as the day moves on the Detroit Free Press will move stories to the Free Side. Sometimes this process can take several days or not at all.  If they give the story to the Associated Press it will go from the Paid Side to the Free Side as soon as this process is complete.

The point of the thread was to get my fellow Michiganer's out to pick up a copy and for the rest to see what our News Paper looks like, other stories, advertising and all.  Yes I know it is unreadable, but still fun to get the flavor of a home town paper I subscribe to the paid said of the e-news paper.

Thanks for the suggestion: Gary  

OGR Webmaster posted:

The images are far too small to read anything. Why not just link us to the story in the paper instead of all the pictures and arrows, like this:

FORD MICHIGAN CENTRAL STATION STORY

MATTY MOROUN BRIDGE STORY

Agreed!  I read both of those articles for free on their app the same day they were published in the newspaper.  A couple of links is far more informative than a amateurish photoshop attempt. 

There have been sooooooo many proposed uses for this building over the years.

Thus I'll believe it when I see it!!

 

trainroomgary posted:

The point of the thread was to get my fellow Michiganer's out to pick up a copy and for the rest to see what our News Paper looks like, other stories, advertising and all.  Yes I know it is unreadable, but still fun to get the flavor of a home town paper I subscribe to the paid said of the e-news paper.

Actually, the point of this thread is the Michigan Central Station story and not an examination of newspaper layout techniques of the Detroit Free Press.  And the information is of no use to the rest of us if it is impossible to read.   Well-intended, though, I'm sure. Thanks to the Webmaster for the links.

March 26, 2018

The view of Michigan Central Station from Corktown, Detroit - Michigan.

The story:

Last week, news broke that Ford could be interested in a move into the long-vacant Michigan Central Station. What this could mean for the city in general is huge—the old train depot has long been a sign of the city’s decline. Add in up to 1,000 workers who could eat, play, shop, and likely live in the city instead of the suburbs, and this is a game changer.

Various outlets have started discussing the impact this move could mean to the city and the neighborhoods.

• Michigan Radio says, “It could be the biggest economic infusion in Detroit since mortgage king Dan Gilbert moved his first wave of employees here from Livonia.”
• Crain’s reports that the real estate market in Corktown is already starting to feel it, with cash offers on a group of three houses that have been up for sale for a while.
• The Detroit Free Press looked at multiple implications of the deal, including the city-owned land around Michigan Central Station, the hope of more transportation going into downtown, and possible community benefits that would be included.

Now that we’ve had some time to think about this, what do you think could happen to the surrounding areas? The nearby Book Depository has been mentioned as a building in the deal; we’d likely see something happen with the neighboring Roosevelt Hotel and CPA Building. Will development start moving west down Michigan Avenue toward Dearborn? Could more housing be built in North Corktown? Could prices rise even more in Southwest Detroit? What will this mean for those listing their homes in Corktown this spring?

Gary

The future of the automobile is slowly being unveiled in this latest purchase of the Michigan Central station.

No longer will you have a drivers license

No longer will you insure or purchase a vehicle

No longer will you need to maintain a vehicle or put gas in it

No longer will this vehicle pollute the environment and sit in a junk yard

A vehicle will be dispatched to your beckoning need from a Central command building via your phone App.

It will be cleaned, charged, and maintained by the manufacture...

Hmm... I would still like to drive a 56 Olds Holiday on the weekend though...

 

 

 

J Daddy posted:

The future of the automobile is slowly being unveiled in this latest purchase of the Michigan Central station.

No longer will you have a drivers license

No longer will you insure or purchase a vehicle

No longer will you need to maintain a vehicle or put gas in it

No longer will this vehicle pollute the environment and sit in a junk yard

A vehicle will be dispatched to your beckoning need from a Central command building via your phone App.

It will be cleaned, charged, and maintained by the manufacture...

Hmm... I would still like to drive a 56 Olds Holiday on the weekend though... 

NOT my future.  Some of us use our vehicles for jobs other than schlepping down to the local Starbucks for a crapacinno.  Until and unless this Brave New World locks us all up to be let out only if we properly obey our Masters, such a paradigm will not work.  The social change posited here is far more revolutionary than any political revolution ever attempted.

My vehicles have to haul and tow, and at my discretion, not that of some glorified taxi company.

J Daddy posted:

Here is an informative video as well. A lot has already been restored in recent years.

J Daddy,

 Thanks for the really nice clips of the central station taken with the drone as well as with your handheld video camera.  

 Though there has been a story in the newspaper regarding Ford's interest in this project,  it's interesting to note that Ford itself has not published anything relative to the rumor.  

 In your drone video you captured the sound of the morning freight as it was traveling along the tracks from the aerial position. Was the sound dubbed in during the aerial shot? 

Hi Kazar, 

I cannot take credit for this great video. It was published on You Tube by Motor City Photography.

I want to say yes, the sound is recorded as the drone was recording the action. A very well done video.

Motor City Photography cameo their videos on the rebirth of the Motor City.

 

Local Ford dealers are offering discounts up to 30% off MSRP for their vehicles. Either Ford is doing very well or very poorly.  Much as we'd like to see a renaissance in Detroit, don't see it happening too quickly.  

Would part of it be a better Amtrak stop for Detroit?  

Mike W. posted:

Would part of it be a better Amtrak stop for Detroit?  

Hi Mike:

Absolutely Yes: Michigan Central Station would be a better stop.  I board the train in Pontiac. Pontiac is where the train starts from the metro Detroit Area to Chicago. These are the metro stops from east to west. (1) Pontiac (2) Detroit (3) Dearborn (4) Ann Arbor home to the University of Michigan.

I board the Amtrak at Pontiac.  This is where the Amtrak starts their trips. I have a friend who is an Amtrak conductor and he lives in Brighton, Michigan and I see him at the start of his day.

All four of these station are un-man stations. You have to buy your ticket before you get their. You can also get on the train with no ticket, but you have to purchase the ticket via your phone. My friend the conductor has told me if you get on with no ticket and do not have it bought by the next stop, you will be ask to get off the train.  In some cases Amtrak will have law enforcement to remove you from the train. This is very rare.

The best station used to be Dearborn, but they moved it about three years ago, 1.5 miles west.  Parking can be an issue at Pontiac, they have one lot that is shared with the train crews and passengers.

If Ford Motor buys the Michigan Central Station, we hope they will bring back part of the building for Amtrak along with stores. This would be great for parking.

I will look for some photos.

Hope this helps: Gary

The continuing saga of the Michigan Central Station. Detroit, Michigan

To read the complete article: Click Here

Source: “Crain’s Detroit Business”

Gary

 

Detroit is in better shape now than it has been in a while, but there is a long way to go. I am hopeful, however. 

The big thing is for the tech business to continue to grow in the area—and the long term signs look good for that to continue. 

Jeff C

 

Ford announced there is not enough profit in making cars so they are getting out of that business.  They are buying old railroad depots instead.  

 

Not even close, Farmer Bill. The company is concentrating on vehicles it can make money on...trucks, SUV’s, crossovers, and Mustangs. 

Jeff C

 

How does One get those red arrows in the posting?

Report: Ford directors briefed on Detroit train station plan

Estate acquisition proposal at the May 10th., 2018  meeting.

"It doesn't need a vote, but it requires buy-in," Ford said.

Ford Motor Co. spokesman Said Deep declined to confirm Edsel Ford's comments.

"We do not discuss details of board of directors meetings," he said in an email.

"I can tell you  that we are very excited about our return to Detroit this year beginning with our electric vehicle and autonomous vehicle teams relocating to the Factory in Corktown. We expect to grow our presence in Detroit and will share more details in the future."

Purchasing the station would greatly bolster Ford's recent move to buy and fix up the Factory, an old factory in the area, for 220 members of its self-driving and electric vehicle team, known as Team Edison. Company Chairman Bill Ford has said the company is eager to re-establish a presence in Detroit, where his great-grandfather established the company. Edsel Ford II also is a great-grandson of Henry Ford. 

Locating in Corktown, 7 miles down Michigan Avenue from the company's Dearborn headquarters, also is seen as helping the company recruit young talent interested in an urban environment. While the company told the Free Press in March it remains committed to Dearborn and updating its extensive facilities there, it has workers housed in the Fairlane Center shopping mall and dated offices.

Proposals to redevelop the train station, which has become symbolic of Detroit's ruins, have come and gone over the years. Negotiations with the depot owner, Manuel (Matty) Maroun, have been described by those familiar with recent discussions as complex and difficult.

The mayor's office and his redevelopment team are working to make a deal a reality, 

Even given Detroit's downtown resurgence in the past six years, this would be one of the most significant redevelopment projects in the city so far. 

Source: Detroit Free Press & WWJ News Radio, Detroit - May 1, 2018 • Over Night, Talk Radio, (The RedEye), there seems to be a lot of interest from the listeners calling in, to talk about this news story.

Gary

How does One get those red arrows in the posting?

with photo editing software, such as Photoshop... or others.

My son works for ford Michigan central not only in play but a dozen surrounding buildings Mark fields vision for Dearborn campus seemato be scaled back have been going to area off and on for years change is unbelievable in area by the way SLO’s is a great restaurant one block away

Its good to see the Detroit City Counsel is working with Ford to make some of these buildings bring a new life.

Its a much needed shot to arm in this area. Even the homes in the area are being fixed up.

 

I was only in Detroit only 2 times in my life, but I'll always remember how the neighborhoods looked, and how badly rundown they were. It's great to hear they are getting a shot in the arm again. + Jobs moving back into the areas....Seems like the #1/#2 qualifications to get a job is not doing drugs, and a prior police record. It really hard to believe how America has fallen !

 

The continuing saga about The Michigan Central Station. Could be great news for Metro Detroit.

Let’s take a look at a Google Map.

The Michigan Central Station is only nine miles from, Ford Motor Company Headquarters. The Ford Glass House is the nick name.  Today I spend several hours in my vehicle and had a chance to listen  to a lot of talk radio. WWJ & WJR, news talk radio.

The listeners called in with a variety of view points and what they saw going on at Detroit Central Station.  Several callers have noticed over twenty work trucks on the property and they were speculating that these workmen were doing a structural analysis on the building.

Another caller talked about the price to rent a house went up from $600 to $1800 a month for a two bedroom bungalow. A guy who owns a small auto shop was offered 1.3 million dollars and turned it down, 

Hope this helps: Gary

Very interesting, hopefully the structural analysis of the building is such that it is sound enough to renovate it.  Lets keep our fingers crossed! 

The continuing saga about The Michigan Central Station. Could be great news for Metro Detroit.

Rumors that Ford Motor Company might buy and renovate the famous Michigan Central Station have run rampant since early March, and now it seems that the automaker's board of directors might vote on the project as early as next week.

The automaker's upcoming annual shareholder's meeting will take place on May 10, but it's unclear if this project will be brought up then. What is certain is that Edsel B. Ford II, the great-grandson of Henry Ford, has confirmed to Crain's, a Detroit-based business publication, that the Blue Oval's board has been "briefed" on the possible acquisition, and that it would be further discussed at the upcoming meeting.

“It doesn’t need a vote, but it requires buy-in,” Ford told Crain's.

The massive multi-story building closed down in 1988 and has remained empty since. Over the years, it has become a staple of Detroit's grandiose and tough past, as well as an icon of something called "ruin porn," which appeals to photographers and thrill-seekers looking to explore dilapidated structures around the world. When the story first emerged, The Drive caught up with a Detroit native who grew up across the street from the station and is very much so pro-Ford takeover.

Ford has expanded its presence in Detroit little by little, especially when it comes to housing its new propulsion systems development teams such as hybrid and fully electric powerplants. The rumors claim that if Ford were to buy the old station, it would feature office space for its electric and autonomous vehicle teams, as well as commercial real estate on the bottom 

Source: The Drive Magazine, May 5, 2018

Gary

The continuing saga about The Michigan Central Station.

Detroit train depot lit up, but no Ford purchase news.

To learn more: Click here

Source: Detroit Free Press & AP Detroit

WWJ - News Radio, Detroit is reporting a decision might come today.

Gary

Sent from my iPhone

Blue Oval will purchase the long-vacant Michigan Central Depot.

Ford Motor Co. is quietly moving one of its teams into new Corktown digs Thursday, a prelude to an expected mid-June announcement that the Blue Oval will purchase the long-vacant Michigan Central Depot.

Negotiations between Ford and the depot's owner, the real estate arm of the Moroun family's Central Transport International Inc., have accelerated in recent weeks as the landmark deal to buy the historic train station and assemble land for a surrounding urban campus take shape and move toward a deal, according to three sources familiar with the situation.

No deal is done, cautioned a source close to the discussions.

The business teams for autonomous technology and electrification are moving into the Corktown facility known as The Factory at Michigan Avenue and Rosa Parks Boulevard. Ford is also said to be interested in a block-long facility known as The Alchemy behind The Factory, as well as an abandoned book depository near the train station. The train station and surrounding campus would act as Ford's home base for next-generation mobility, electrification and autonomous vehicle development.

Link to Today’s Article: Detroit News

Gary

The long-empty Michigan Central Depot in Detroit's Corktown has changed ownership from the billionaire Moroun family to an entity registered to a New York law firm, ahead of an expected mid-June announcement that Ford Motor Co. will redevelop the building.

The warrant deed was transferred earlier this month by the Moroun-owned MCS Crown Land Development Co. LLC to New Investment Properties I LLC, linked to the law firm Phillips Lytle LLP. No price was given. 

On the same day, the Moroun company also transferred ownership of the former Detroit Public Schools book depository building next to the depot to a separate entity called New Investment Properties II LLC. That has a contract price for $8 million. 

Ford is expected to make a mid-June announcement that it is purchasing the long-vacant train station. The company in late May began moving its electric and autonomous vehicle teams into a recently renovated building a few blocks east of the train station.

More details to come.• • • •  Click here for today’s news

Gary

This is getting very interesting! Thanks for keeping us posted Gary. 

Nice to see, Detroit deserved a lot better than it has seen over the past decades. It was the tell tale for a lot of the industrial decline we have seen in the US that has hit so many areas/towns, can only hope that Detroit coming back to life is a tell tale for the future of other places. I have heard through the grapevine that it is attracting tech startups, it is starting to attract the arts communities, and that is always a good sign for a town. Not long ago houses in Detroit were for sale for 9 or 10k, this tells a lot. 

I just saw on Google an announcement about the station.  One car company is going to have to fix or repair daily the station for some time!

J Daddy posted this thread

Looks Like its Official - Ford purchases the Central Michigan Depot Train Station!

Certainly an exciting development for Detroit and the entire SE Michigan region.

Question, where is it stated anywhere Ford wants the building?  Maybe they just want the land?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I just saw on Google an announcement about the station.  One car company is going to have to fix or repair daily the station for some time!

Very tricky …….. hopefully, there won't be anyone near the station found on road dead.

superwarp1 posted:

Question, where is it stated anywhere Ford wants the building?  Maybe they just want the land?

Hi superwarp1

Ford Motor is going to refurbish the station, I would send you more information, but I am on my iPhone. There is a large power outage on my side of town.

Richie C. posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I just saw on Google an announcement about the station.  One car company is going to have to fix or repair daily the station for some time!

Very tricky …….. hopefully, there won't be anyone near the station found on road dead.

Kid what you may, I am a GM man myself, but it marks a new dawn to era of the a new vehicle with zero emissions, zero incidents, and zero congestion. 

What will stem of this new technology will create a hub of activity and I am happy to see the station will be the center of this new investment and that it was saved from the Counsels decision to raise it in 2010.

J Daddy posted:

What will stem of this new technology will create a hub of activity and I am happy to see the station will be the center of this new investment and that it was saved from the Counsels decision to raise it in 2010.

You mean they were trying to make it taller, i.e. "raise", back in 2010?

Hot Water posted:

J Daddy posted:

What will stem of this new technology will create a hub of activity and I am happy to see the station will be the center of this new investment and that it was saved from the Counsels decision to raise it in 2010.

You mean they were trying to make it taller, i.e. "raise", back in 2010?

LOL … darned spell check... raze... 

Richie C. posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I just saw on Google an announcement about the station.  One car company is going to have to fix or repair daily the station for some time!

Very tricky …….. hopefully, there won't be anyone near the station found on road dead.

....from ex 70's exploding gas tanks!

BTW, to me, electric cars are at this time not the green concept people think they are.  Batteries are haz-mats.  Our grid system in this country is not the best.  High power lines, when energized, can produce OZONE plus radio and other electromagnetic polution.  Electrical power lines, like the wiring on our layouts, have voltage drops.  Windmills have there own issues.....

I remember that to save trees and forests people need to use plastic bags.....

I am not saying no to electric cars.  Just do not make this the plastic bag on 'droids!

Sent from my iPhone

To read the article: Click here

Gary: Rail-fan

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Richie C. posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I just saw on Google an announcement about the station.  One car company is going to have to fix or repair daily the station for some time!

Very tricky …….. hopefully, there won't be anyone near the station found on road dead.

....from ex 70's exploding gas tanks!

BTW, to me, electric cars are at this time not the green concept people think they are.  Batteries are haz-mats.  Our grid system in this country is not the best.  High power lines, when energized, can produce OZONE plus radio and other electromagnetic polution.  Electrical power lines, like the wiring on our layouts, have voltage drops.  Windmills have there own issues.....

I remember that to save trees and forests people need to use plastic bags.....

I am not saying no to electric cars.  Just do not make this the plastic bag on 'droids!

At the risk of going off on a non-railroad tangent, the whole idea of saving tress by not using paper is one of the most ridiculous ideas that is spread around these days. It's mostly perpetuated by well-meaning but poorly informed armchair environmentalists and by businesses like banks, who stand to profit by handling less paper. Paper companies grow trees on vast tracts for that specific purpose. They are essentially tree farms. Trying to save those trees is like trying to save corn plants by not eating corn. If all paper was replaced by other materials, or if 100% of our paper was recycled, we would not need raw pulp, and the paper companies would not need those trees. Since they are not in the open space business and would quickly sell those lands, which would not necessarily be preserved. Imagine the irony of attempts to "save trees" resulting in tracts of forest being cut down and developed. 

I do agree on the issue of electric cars. They are not the cure-all that so many believe them to be, for the reasons you listed. 

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Richie C. posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I just saw on Google an announcement about the station.  One car company is going to have to fix or repair daily the station for some time!

Very tricky …….. hopefully, there won't be anyone near the station found on road dead.

....from ex 70's exploding gas tanks!

BTW, to me, electric cars are at this time not the green concept people think they are.  Batteries are haz-mats.  Our grid system in this country is not the best.  High power lines, when energized, can produce OZONE plus radio and other electromagnetic polution.  Electrical power lines, like the wiring on our layouts, have voltage drops.  Windmills have there own issues.....

I remember that to save trees and forests people need to use plastic bags.....

I am not saying no to electric cars.  Just do not make this the plastic bag on 'droids!

It isn't a bad bet, Ford is a global company and even with the mania around Trucks and SUV's in the US, Electric vehicles are gaining traction in other places, BMW just announced growth in electric car sales of like 31%. If the price of gas keeps climbing as it has been......

Electric Power lines as sources of dangerous radiation and the like has been blown out of the water, in Sweden and other places where they take environmental threats seriously (they were the first ones to quantify the risks of CRT displays and other kinds of displays, and the safety standards now in place worldwide came from them) did long term studies of power transmission and they conclusively proved that there wasn't the risk people were claiming. As far as power drops over distance, that has always been a problem with power transmission but hasn't stopped us from having long distance transmission. Yep, our power grid in many ways is a cobbled together mess, but for better or worse it works.

The kinds of batteries they use in cars these days are not going to end up in a landfill, the lithium used in these batteries is a toxic metal as are cadmium (the cad in nicad), lead and other routinely used metals, yet we haven't banned the lead acid battery, because like the LiPo and the like used in electric cars, they get recycled. The real environmental threat is the batteries we use in electric gizmos, the AA,AAA,C, D that often end up tossed in the garbage rather than recycled..and there is zero threat in an electric car from being exposed to the toxic metals (yeah, if a car caught fire you theoretically could breath in particles of that, but guess what, all that wiring and seat materials and paint burning puts out really toxic fumes). 

There is serious work going on to basically make electric vehicles infinite range, there has been some breakthrough work done on dynamic recharging (basically, using induction from power in the roadways to recharge batteries as the car is driving), there are some large scale tests going on and it has the potential to make electric vehicles truly practical for all kinds of driving (obviously, would need to work out things like redoing roads to have this embedded, who would pay for it, how to make the technology safe against idiots deciding to dig up cables for the material in them), but it is looking like it may be feasible. 

As far as Ford redoing the station, I am glad they are doing it.What they don't need themselves could be used by tech startups, and given what Ford is planning there could be places doing work on the technology needed to make electric cars truly a replacement for the gas engine. I am also glad to see Detroit coming back to life, and that the auto industry, that helped with the decline, is trying to bring it back. I have heard that house prices are going up (not many years ago you could pick up a house for 10k or so), and that artists and musicians are moving into neighborhoods along with other creative people and that is cool. Cities are pretty good for that kind of thing, tends to spur a lot of innovation and change, and Detroit certainly deserves some good news. Only problem with Detroit for me is the weather, them winters are pretty mean (then again, Chicago is a great city and their weather, well... . 

No confirmation from Amtrak, if they will move back in.  They have new station at Dearborn, about five miles west of Michigan Central Depot. 

Gary: Rail-fan

I wonder how the Ford Shareholders will take this since there are millions/Billions to be poured into this project. Ford mustl be getting some type of tax breaks and/or financial assistance from Mich-I -Can and/or the Feds? If the economy slumps and sales dive like a submarine, will Ford stop the renovation?

It's nice thought that they will tackle this Downtown Eyesore and make it into a diamond er... shiny Oval once again!

As a Detroit area resident it was sad to see how the building had been so neglected. Ford on the other hand has long term plans for it's use. I don't think they are gonna dump wheel barrels of money into it overnight. But some day..........

Their plans are long term and are buying other buildings in the same area they definitely have big plans for the future in auto designs.

 

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

I wonder how the Ford Shareholders will take this since there are millions/Billions to be poured into this project. Ford mustl be getting some type of tax breaks and/or financial assistance from Mich-I -Can and/or the Feds? If the economy slumps and sales dive like a submarine, will Ford stop the renovation?

It's nice thought that they will tackle this Downtown Eyesore and make it into a diamond er... shiny Oval once again!

To loosely paraphrase one of the Ford family from many years ago "small cars mean small profit".

Someone smells subsidies in alternative fuel vehicles and technologies and I suspect that someone is Ford.   Thus the interest in "alternative fuel and autonomous vehicles" at that location.   And one may be certain that there are financial incentives such as tax breaks involved.

As long as those continue, AND they are fruitful and lead to permanent jobs that is good.  

Hopefully the station can be repurposed and any issues with the surrounding neighborhoods and blight and crime can be mitigated.  

Actually, you have to look at the bigger picture. It's not just battery powered cars and autonomous driving. Its technology evolving to a new level.  A change to the way we do business... I am not saying its good nor bad... but this is a dawn of a new era:

No longer will vehicles sit in a rusted junk yard

Reduced traffic fatalities

Reduced emissions

A new development of A.I.

Both mass transportation and personal transportation will be coordinated from one hub

No auto insurance or loans needed

Auto service will be a thing of the past

You might not even need a drivers liscense or register a vehicle...

The list goes on.

All I know is this will be an awakening for this area of Detroit in a positive way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

John I'm excited for Detroit too, there's lots on your list though that I don't see going away in our lifetimes

I was never realy concernd about the effects of radio and electromagnetic sources until I took a test for something.  Two FCC tests. These were for the Amateur Radio General and then Extra Class.  These tests, along with the Tech, have questions concerning Radio Frequency exposure.  Got me to wonder:  Does this apply to all radio physics, or does amateur radio alone have odd physics?  Somehow the Fox Mulder in me is alerted:  What are we not being told?

Also,is this a case of where a little exposure is OK once or twice, but over a period of time....?  

And there are places and times where having an all electric transortation system of any kind could make a disaster worse.  Places in hurricane zones.  The pwer grid is the first to go, unless it is underground.  OK, then what happens when the hurricane wants to imitate Harvey over Houston......

Althought he talk is all about the MC station, actually the station is secondary.  It's the office building that interests Ford.  Taht was built in 1913 as the headquarters of the Michigan Railroad.  It was one of NYC's major offices until the PC merger, housing the offices of the Northern District General Manager, the Detroit Division Superintendent and the AVP of the Detroit sales region.

There is some nonsense in teh Wiki article about the location having been chosen to stimulate retail development.  The fact is that the station had to be at the end of the grade up from the tunnel under the Detroit River.

trainroomgary posted:

superwarp1 posted:

Question, where is it stated anywhere Ford wants the building?  Maybe they just want the land?

Hi superwarp1

Ford Motor is going to refurbish the station, I would send you more information, but I am on my iPhone. There is a large power outage on my side of town.

Dear Trainroomgary,

The large power outage on your side of town is being caused by all of those transformers you have turned on to run your layout!  Please turn them off so some of us little guys can have some fun as well! 

I just read that the NE Journal of Medicine did a redaction on the study of the Mediterranean Diet because of sampling errors.  And the English Doctor who found this error have found others....

What does this have to do with this thread?  Earlier, some posts indicated a study said X.  I am not flaming anybody.  But it is getting to the point one cannot trust any study, or for that matter, poll.

Rich is right, journalism is dead.  Is scholarship next?

Allegheny posted:

trainroomgary posted:

superwarp1 posted:

Question, where is it stated anywhere Ford wants the building?  Maybe they just want the land?

Hi superwarp1

Ford Motor is going to refurbish the station, I would send you more information, but I am on my iPhone. There is a large power outage on my side of town.

Dear Trainroomgary,

The large power outage on your side of town is being caused by all of those transformers you have turned on to run your layout!  Please turn them off so some of us little guys can have some fun as well! 

I'm still waiting on Ford's announcement on this.  Why I think it's great.  I don't understand why Ford would spend what some estimates have stated a cool 300-400 million to restore this building.   Why?

Today’s photos & story: Click here.

Gary: Rail-fan

superwarp1 posted:

Allegheny posted:

trainroomgary posted:

superwarp1 posted:

Question, where is it stated anywhere Ford wants the building?  Maybe they just want the land?

Hi superwarp1

Ford Motor is going to refurbish the station, I would send you more information, but I am on my iPhone. There is a large power outage on my side of town.

Dear Trainroomgary,

The large power outage on your side of town is being caused by all of those transformers you have turned on to run your layout!  Please turn them off so some of us little guys can have some fun as well! 

I'm still waiting on Ford's announcement on this.  Why I think it's great.  I don't understand why Ford would spend what some estimates have stated a cool 300-400 million to restore this building.   Why?

Deductions for 2018 1040 Income Tax Forms!

superwarp1 posted:

Allegheny posted:

trainroomgary posted:

superwarp1 posted:

Question, where is it stated anywhere Ford wants the building?  Maybe they just want the land?

Hi superwarp1

Ford Motor is going to refurbish the station, I would send you more information, but I am on my iPhone. There is a large power outage on my side of town.

Dear Trainroomgary,

The large power outage on your side of town is being caused by all of those transformers you have turned on to run your layout!  Please turn them off so some of us little guys can have some fun as well! 

I'm still waiting on Ford's announcement on this.  Why I think it's great.  I don't understand why Ford would spend what some estimates have stated a cool 300-400 million to restore this building.   Why?

Businesses make decisions for a lot of reasons, and the idea that businesses only make decisions based on immediate profit and "shareholder value" (as much of a driving force that is, both for the good and bad and aweful) is one of those things that isn't true. I can't answer for Ford, but remember that Ford didn't just do this on some whim, I guarantee this went through exploratory committees, and it went in front of their full board of directors, and they had to make a case for it, it is why boards exist....in any event, why?

-Detroit has been showing signs of coming back to life, they are starting to see both the arts community come into the city, along with other elements that are harbingers of life coming back. Among other things, that generally means young, creative people might be willing to live in such a place, people Ford would need for what they supposedly are planning to do here. Things like clubs and restaurants and arts venues and all kinds of things, if it is happening in Detroit, could make it a great place to locate a venture like this.

-That building could serve pretty nicely as a place to attract start ups, it is an interesting building, it isn't exactly a suburban office park. I worked for a startup in a loft in Chelsea in NYC, it was a lot more fun working there (this was 2007- 2009) and I am an old fart, not that young, it was fun to be in a building like that. Among other things, a venture like Ford is planning is going to require other companies to develop things, if you are working on self driving cars, electric vehicles, it would be advantageous to have in the same building a company that could develop a prototype for a sensing system or a system to handle bad weather driving. 

-With their tech in there as an anchor tenant, related to the prior thing I wrote, it could attract other kinds of out there tenants there, not necessarily in the auto industry, and eventually could end up filling the building with paying tenants, too. 

-Some of it could be a form of corporate guilt/responsibility, the auto industry, fairly or unfairly, has taken a lot of shots for their role in the death of Detroit, and while I am sure it isn't the prime reason they are doing this, I am kind of certain from a PR standpoint this can help dispel the idea that Ford is only a cold corporate entity out for itself (and it would be in line with what Ford tried to do in the past, Ford I believe put up the Renaissance center in downtown Detroit in an attempt years ago to help revitalize downtown).  There are likely people at Ford who are from the area and want to see Detroit come back, too. 

-It likely won't cost them that total amount, I would be that they will be eligible for tax breaks and deductions and credits for building in a depressed area that will help offset that cost. They also likely got the building fairly cheaply, given the amount of work required and that the city was going to tear it down. 200 or 300 million sounds like a lot, but a new skyscraper without the interest this building would have can easily cost that, my company paid for the construction of a build around the turn of the 21st century in Times Square probably the same size as this building, and it cost then like 500 million. New office buildings of that scope don't come cheaply. 

Again, just speculation, but business decisions are made around a lot of factors, and I would bet that some of it is based in the hope/idea that Detroit seems to be coming back from the ashes and from what I have heard it is starting already to attract young, creative people who may be attracted to a city redoing itself and isn't yet totally gentrified, sanitized and overtly expensive, and Ford may be banking on that with the other things. New ventures like Ford is planning, R and D, speculative ventures generally are a different mindset then if it is a firm of accountants or tax lawyers, and they need people that fit that. 

 

.....and what happens in about 30 or so years when the building will be amortized and needs a redo. Will the Blue Oval stay, or wil they move out?  Detroit 2.0.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I just read that the NE Journal of Medicine did a redaction on the study of the Mediterranean Diet because of sampling errors.  And the English Doctor who found this error have found others....

What does this have to do with this thread?  Earlier, some posts indicated a study said X.  I am not flaming anybody.  But it is getting to the point one cannot trust any study, or for that matter, poll.

Rich is right, journalism is dead.  Is scholarship next?

Nope, the reason this study came into question was because science at its core never assumes anything is totally settled, and studies published in journals may have gone through a vetting process, but then other scientists look at the method and results and analyze them, and it is how this came to light. Other researchers have gone back over the data, and re analyzed it taking into account the errors ( which had to do with some subjects not being truly random, not a bad conclusion) and are on board w the results;others remain skeptical which is good because that is how science works. I also will add that this isnt the only study done by genuine researchers on this diet, there are a lot of studies that indicate the same thing.  There are also a ton of studies indicating that diets based in fruits and vegetables and limited in saturated fats and moderate total fat intake are healthier than what a lot of people are eating. 

That doesnt mean all studies are equal or that knowledge doesnt advance. Those 'clinical' trials of things that supposedly show a miracle pill will cause you to lose weight are not peer reviewed and usually involve like 20 people, often not chosen at random and not vetted for other factors,too few people and not enough controls and no review. Then too studies can lead to wrong conclusions. Studies showed that the hdl/ldl ratio w cholesterol was a major indicator of heart health. They also knew from studies that taking niacin makes the ratio improve...so doctors assumed taking niacin would reduce heart disease and started prescribing it...but when they looked at people who took niacin versus those that didnt in controlled studies, there was no difference in heart disease rates between the two groups....same w folic acid.

The emf studies around powerlines were done over a number of years and the results consistently have backed up what other studies have said, that no health issues could be tied to power transmission lines. That is another hallmark of science over quackery, it insists results be replicated, and it is why studies are either confirmed or revoked.

I will take that over someone tweeting 'truth' or someone when you talk about the poor diet most people are eating,says 'my grandpa lived to be 90 and he smoked 2 packs of luckies a day and ate meat and potatoes 3 meals a day' *shrug*

Dominic Mazoch posted:

.....and what happens in about 30 or so years when the building will be amortized and needs a redo. Will the Blue Oval stay, or wil they move out?  Detroit 2.0.

Who knows? 40 years ago the claim was nyc was dead,how everyone was moving out, that places like tampa and phoenix and vegas were the future. Today once bombed out areas are rapidly gentrifying, crime is lower than almost any other city in the US, and instead of being detroit the population has increased by a million, and packimg crate sized apartments go for a mint...and some of those future cities today still are reeling ftom the real estate bubble and are not quite the super cities they were supposed to become.

In 30 years could be Detroit is thriving and Ford keeps it or sells it at a profit. Detroit 2.0 might be NYC 2.0, not tampa or las vegas 2.0.

I have seen too many building boom/bust cycles.  Once the rose is off and people get over the newness........

Plus, why do one need an art scene to attract workers.  I would be more concerned about low cost of living, low taxes, and good infrastructure.

Is this one of the cases of putting the caboose before the horse.

To see all 15 photos: Click here 

If you have photos or stories about the Michigan Central Depot, please post on this thread. Like to hear from you.

Gary: Rail-fan

trainroomgary posted:

To see all 15 photos: Click here 

If you have photos or stories about the Michigan Central Depot, please post on this thread. Like to hear from you.

Gary: Rail-fan

One thing for sure, that picture sure ain't of the Green Diamond in Detroit, (unless there was catenary at the MC depot) it's Chicago.

Rusty

The acquisition of the MCD would have had to been orchestrated by Ford Land Development.   This is the branch of the company that handles all land related acquisitions and development.   Secondly, the "Family" would have been involved heavily in making this a Go or No Go deal.  You can bet that they have a definitive long term plan in mind that will be profitable to them. 

Anyone thinking that the firm has any integrity or moral obligation to the City of Detroit due to Ford's involvement in aiding its decline needs to seek out professional help.   Dollars are the only thing this family / firm understands and lives by - Period. 

The continuation of the "Families" legacy is extremely important to them.  The only reason their family is even on the map is due to their Great Grandfathers achievements.    Otherwise, they'd be like the rest of us slogging away trying to earn a living.  What has any of one of them really done to help the firm in development of new products using their brains?   Look at their history since Hank the Deuces demise.   They have struggled to keep afloat often making horrible product development decisions i.e.  developing the Probe to replace the Mustang, elevating  J. Nassar to President, replacing the Ford Oval with the Script,  not incorporating Ford European designs into the product line-up that at the time were considered innovative, etc.

Please don't misunderstand what I'm trying to say.  In terms of being good money and business managers I'll give them some credit a C.  But in terms of individual contribution to direct new product development - Zero.  One of their current board members - essentially flunked out at the age of 42 yrs.   He had several golden opportunities handed to him and failed each time.   He never started at bottom and worked his way up.  Instead he started near the top and then fell off.

It will be interesting to see what the long term goal of acquiring the MCD is.   Hopefully, they don't abandon the project midway should the expected head of steam doesn't materialize in the time frame they'd like.  The Cities full recovery will take time and sums of money needed to revitalize the building - staggering.

 

Rusty Traque posted:

One thing for sure, that picture sure ain't of the Green Diamond in Detroit, (unless there was catenary at the MC depot) it's Chicago.

Rusty

Hi Rusty:

The Detroit Free Press writes that this photo was furnished by: Winton Engine division of General Motors, Detroit Free Press Achieve.  I would have to agree, the back ground in this photo is not from the Michigan Central Depot.

What is the source of your photo. I would like to share this information with the reporter for the Detroit Free Press, via e-mail.

Thanks: Gary

trainroomgary posted:

Hi Rusty:

 

 

What is the source of your photo. I would like to share this information with the reporter for the Detroit Free Press, via e-mail.

Thanks: Gary

Illinois Central railroad, I guess. 

All I can tell you is my photo is a glass slide I discovered in an ancient slide projector at an AV rental place I worked at in the early 1970's.  It was chock full of glass slides of IC equipment and facilities.  They were all labeled G. MacGregor Studios, Stony Island Ave., Chicago.  I took the few that had trains, a guy I worked with took the rolling stock pictures and we left the facilities pictures (silly us.)

Rusty

Dominic Mazoch posted:

I have seen too many building boom/bust cycles.  Once the rose is off and people get over the newness........

Plus, why do one need an art scene to attract workers.  I would be more concerned about low cost of living, low taxes, and good infrastructure.

Is this one of the cases of putting the caboose before the horse.

Boom/bust cycles tend to happen because of poor policy decisions and bubble economies based on those poor policies (for example, the housing 'boom' in places like Las Vegas and Tampa based in idiotic lending and the 'flip' mentality that outran any kind of jobs to support those prices).

As far as putting the caboose before the horse, sometimes you need to do that, doing things that seem out there to jumpstart something. For example, if Ford's vision is they want Detroit to become a high tech hub that benefits themselves and others *hypothetically*), it can take risks to get it going. I can only speculate on Ford's motives or strategy for doing this project, but something like this could be a prime the pump kind of thing. 

As far as where a company locates, that depends a lot on what they are planning to do and who they need to do it, as well as factors like availability of space, cost of space, taxes and of course infrastructure. It is very different if you are planning to put up a factory to manufacture widgets then it is some sort of start up in high tech. A widget factory might look at a location because it has low taxes, easy access to shipping, low cost electrical power, a low cost of living or a place where there is a relatively large employment pool of people.

High tech companies operate differently. They tend to locate in areas that have close proximity to research universities and other pools of talent and research, and they are looking for people with the kind of skill sets they need, which generally tends to be well educated and also trends younger.  Generally when you have an arts scene (and that isn't just art galleries and the like, it is music, visual arts, etc) it also spawns other things, like nightlife, cafes and restaurants. It is why more than a few attempts to establish high tech corridors in more rural or exurban areas have failed, because of what potential employees want from the area they live in.

A factory manufacturing widgets on the other hand will generally have people who might be looking for things like good schools, a house with a bit of property and the like, because they have families and have different needs...and this would/could include both line workers and the managers and engineers, needs change as you get older and want to settle down .  

One thing I do know, bold moves are generally required to create change, and those waiting let's say for Detroit to gentrify and become "safe", could very well be on the tail end of things *shrug*. 

bigkid posted:

superwarp1 posted:

Allegheny posted:

trainroomgary posted:

superwarp1 posted:

Question, where is it stated anywhere Ford wants the building?  Maybe they just want the land?

Hi superwarp1

Ford Motor is going to refurbish the station, I would send you more information, but I am on my iPhone. There is a large power outage on my side of town.

Dear Trainroomgary,

The large power outage on your side of town is being caused by all of those transformers you have turned on to run your layout!  Please turn them off so some of us little guys can have some fun as well! 

I'm still waiting on Ford's announcement on this.  Why I think it's great.  I don't understand why Ford would spend what some estimates have stated a cool 300-400 million to restore this building.   Why?

Businesses make decisions for a lot of reasons, and the idea that businesses only make decisions based on immediate profit and "shareholder value" (as much of a driving force that is, both for the good and bad and aweful) is one of those things that isn't true. I can't answer for Ford, but remember that Ford didn't just do this on some whim, I guarantee this went through exploratory committees, and it went in front of their full board of directors, and they had to make a case for it, it is why boards exist....in any event, why?

-Detroit has been showing signs of coming back to life, they are starting to see both the arts community come into the city, along with other elements that are harbingers of life coming back. Among other things, that generally means young, creative people might be willing to live in such a place, people Ford would need for what they supposedly are planning to do here. Things like clubs and restaurants and arts venues and all kinds of things, if it is happening in Detroit, could make it a great place to locate a venture like this.

-That building could serve pretty nicely as a place to attract start ups, it is an interesting building, it isn't exactly a suburban office park. I worked for a startup in a loft in Chelsea in NYC, it was a lot more fun working there (this was 2007- 2009) and I am an old fart, not that young, it was fun to be in a building like that. Among other things, a venture like Ford is planning is going to require other companies to develop things, if you are working on self driving cars, electric vehicles, it would be advantageous to have in the same building a company that could develop a prototype for a sensing system or a system to handle bad weather driving. 

-With their tech in there as an anchor tenant, related to the prior thing I wrote, it could attract other kinds of out there tenants there, not necessarily in the auto industry, and eventually could end up filling the building with paying tenants, too. 

-Some of it could be a form of corporate guilt/responsibility, the auto industry, fairly or unfairly, has taken a lot of shots for their role in the death of Detroit, and while I am sure it isn't the prime reason they are doing this, I am kind of certain from a PR standpoint this can help dispel the idea that Ford is only a cold corporate entity out for itself (and it would be in line with what Ford tried to do in the past, Ford I believe put up the Renaissance center in downtown Detroit in an attempt years ago to help revitalize downtown).  There are likely people at Ford who are from the area and want to see Detroit come back, too. 

-It likely won't cost them that total amount, I would be that they will be eligible for tax breaks and deductions and credits for building in a depressed area that will help offset that cost. They also likely got the building fairly cheaply, given the amount of work required and that the city was going to tear it down. 200 or 300 million sounds like a lot, but a new skyscraper without the interest this building would have can easily cost that, my company paid for the construction of a build around the turn of the 21st century in Times Square probably the same size as this building, and it cost then like 500 million. New office buildings of that scope don't come cheaply. 

Again, just speculation, but business decisions are made around a lot of factors, and I would bet that some of it is based in the hope/idea that Detroit seems to be coming back from the ashes and from what I have heard it is starting already to attract young, creative people who may be attracted to a city redoing itself and isn't yet totally gentrified, sanitized and overtly expensive, and Ford may be banking on that with the other things. New ventures like Ford is planning, R and D, speculative ventures generally are a different mindset then if it is a firm of accountants or tax lawyers, and they need people that fit that. 

 

One important fact about Ford is that the Ford family controls the voting stock.  Dividends from Ford are an important source of income for them.  So they don't have to worry about how the market responds in the short term, i.e. one or two years.  Their "shareholder value" is in a ten to 20 year context.

Also, although its current profits aren't great, it has a very strong cash position and the dividend is very well covered by free cash flow.

Meet Bill Ford • The Company’s Vision for Michigan Central Depot

Source: Detroit Free Press / Sunday June 17, 2018

I am pleased that Ford Motor has purchase the Michigan Central Station and Bill Ford’s Mission Statement, and the companies objectives for the Station, Corktown, and for the future of the automotive industry.

Gary: Rail-fan

These's a nice story about Ford purchasing the train station in today's Sunday New York Times, first page in the Business Section. Bill Ford, interviewed for the story, recalls going to the station as a boy for family trips to California. The station is in an area of Detroit called Corktown, settled by Irish immigrants. Ford notes that his relatives came to Detroit from County Cork in Ireland in the 19th century. Interesting connection.

This building can still have great value for Detroit. I can only believe that this is a positive thing.

I don't think Ford (the company, and by definition, the family) is perfect by any stretch, but please remember that it wasn't that long ago that the company made the hugely gutsy decision to mortgage itself to the hilt, in a very uncertain business environment, to the tune of some 29 billion dollars, in order to survive the recession.

They're still here, and still relevant, as this thread shows.

Jeff C

 

AP story here.  https://www.msn.com/en-us/mone...gan-central-station/

 

Gary: Rail-fan

Gary,

 

you beat me to it with the story of the clock. I hope others take Ford up on their request for people to return items stolen from the building over the years.

Actually stealing the clock saved it. Otherwise it may have been taken to the scrap heap

Not going to say Ford is perfect, they have made their mistakes as most of the Detroit auto industry did, at times  they have been at the head of the pack, others falling behind. As far as the ablity of the Ford family, Edsel Ford was probably the most talented of the scions and descendants of Henry, he was the one responsible for the MKI lincoln (helped design it), and also helped wrest power away from the old man to allow Ford to modernize, and it was Edsall who was primarily responsible for Ford's transformation into a war time supplier, including the Rouge plant that produced bombers for the air force among other things. Henry the II was responsible for a lot of more than stupid decisions, including the Edsel, as well as charming things like the Mustang II and the Pinto,happened under his watch.......Ford also still to this day makes some of the higher quality cars among the US big three, and that was because they in the 80's and 90's totally reworked how they make cars. Not to mention they were the only of the big three who didn't need to be bailed out by the government in 2008..so not necessarily bad management. 

Bill Ford's problem is that he isn't a numbers guy, in many ways his problem is he is too much the dreamer IMO. At a time when the US auto industry was/is basically doubling down on Trucks and SUV's, he made a big push for hybrid technology and improving fuel mileage,which unfortunately wasn't what the public wanted in a time when gas prices are still ridiculously low compared to the past, everyone wants the SUV and pickup trucks. I suspect the vision for this building was him as well, and it isn't the first generation, for all his faults Henry II tried to do what he could to revitalize Detroit, the Renaissance project was his baby for example. 

I hope this works out for them, a neat building was saved, and I hope it does help revitalize Detroit. Ford alone was not responsible for the decline in Detroit, that was shared equally with the big 3 and also with a number of other factors both political and social, which doesn't really have a place in this thread (at least talking about Ford and its history has context to the train station). I don't think this was strictly a numbers thing, I doubt that, if this was just the beancounters there is no way Ford would have taken the risk, I think this was in part seeing a possible opportunity to revitalize Detroit, to put a 'good face' on Ford, and also potentially create something unique with the station that helps Ford (new products, in a kind of 'skunkworks' in the city and away from corporate Ford) as well as maybe serving as the hub for similar kinds of startups and ventures. Will they ever recoup the many hundreds of millions they will sink into this? Hard to say, they could if Detroit comes back, office space that 30 years ago was going for 20 bucks a square foot in lower Manhattan is now 4 or 5 times that today....not to mention in the end even if it never generates much return, it definitely has left something special behind. 

bigkid posted:

 Not to mention they were the only of the big three who didn't need to be bailed out by the government in 2008..so not necessarily bad management. 

IIRC the reason Ford didn't take the bailout was the Ford family owns special Class B shares which make up about 6% or so of the company total stock yet have 40% of the voting rights and that would have been lost. There was a financial article some time ago talking about how the current generation of cousins were pooling their funds to buy any Class B shares others sold to maintain their control of the company. Believe Comcast has the same stock/voting rights situation. Ford sold Aston Martin, Jaguar, Land Rover, Volvo, etc for pennies on the dollar to raise money rather than lose control. It is a nice civic move though we will have to see if it turns out to be a good move financially for the other stockholders.

J Daddy posted:

Actually stealing the clock saved it. Otherwise it may have been taken to the scrap heap

Exactly what I was thinking. Probably not a thief, but someone just trying to preserve history. Especially with the details on handling the old piece.

 

Originally posted by Bigkid:

Bill Ford's problem is that he isn't a numbers guy, in many ways his problem is he is too much the dreamer IMO.
At a time when the US auto industry was/is basically doubling down on Trucks and SUV's, he made a big push for
hybrid technology and improving fuel mileage,which unfortunately wasn't what the public wanted in a time when
gas prices are still ridiculously low compared to the past, everyone wants the SUV and pickup trucks.
I suspect the vision for this building was him as well, and it isn't the first generation, for all his faults
 Henry II tried to do what he could to revitalize Detroit, the Renaissance project was his baby for example.

I am sorry but I will have to Disagree with you. If ford didn't invest in hybrid Tech, when the gas crunch hit from 2008-2010 ford would have been under just like the other two. also with the recent ford announcement of cancelling production of cars to almost an all SUV lineup, this hybrid Tech/ improving fuel mileage will allow them to do this while still holding to the C.A.F.E. rules.

Like GM didn't take a Big hit by selling Toyota back in 2003 the GM Hybrid technology for a mere 5 million bucks! NAH We Don't need no Stinkin' Hybrid cars!!!! Lets make more gas guzzling trucks cause they sell! Another 1978 Gas Crisis isn't coming!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK62tfoCmuQ

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

 

Originally posted by Bigkid:

Bill Ford's problem is that he isn't a numbers guy, in many ways his problem is he is too much the dreamer IMO.
At a time when the US auto industry was/is basically doubling down on Trucks and SUV's, he made a big push for
hybrid technology and improving fuel mileage,which unfortunately wasn't what the public wanted in a time when
gas prices are still ridiculously low compared to the past, everyone wants the SUV and pickup trucks.
I suspect the vision for this building was him as well, and it isn't the first generation, for all his faults
 Henry II tried to do what he could to revitalize Detroit, the Renaissance project was his baby for example.

I am sorry but I will have to Disagree with you. If ford didn't invest in hybrid Tech, when the gas crunch hit from 2008-2010 ford would have been under just like the other two. also with the recent ford announcement of cancelling production of cars to almost an all SUV lineup, this hybrid Tech/ improving fuel mileage will allow them to do this while still holding to the C.A.F.E. rules.

Like GM didn't take a Big hit by selling Toyota back in 2003 the GM Hybrid technology for a mere 5 million bucks! NAH We Don't need no Stinkin' Hybrid cars!!!! Lets make more gas guzzling trucks cause they sell! Another 1978 Gas Crisis isn't coming!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kK62tfoCmuQ

Not sure what you are talking about with toyota hybrids, they developed the synergy drive they still use in the 1990s and introduced the prius in 1997, and they license the technology to other makers,so they would have no reason to buy any gm tech...not to mention gm makes hybrids like the volt plug in and hybrid versions of trucks and cars.

The problem with cafe is they look at the fuel mileage of cars sold. Unless Ford goes all hybrid, they may have problems selling hybrids because of the premium charged for it. Potentially they could do that and eat the cost difference, without having to subsidize sedans and such (suvs and trucks have huge profit margins), the cost of the hybrid may be offset by the losses on sedans they will no longer have (the mustang has high margins too from what i know,bc people tend to buy the pimped out ones w large margins). Not sure they can meet cafe with standard suvs and trucks w the current ratio of hybrid to non hybrid, non hybrids sell at a pretty large multiplier to hybrids,something like 5 to 1.

On the other hand they may be ok, the epa is talking about rolling back cafe or even getting rid of it,and congress may grant that.

When i said bill ford was a dreamer it was because he championed things like hybrid technology and put serious effort into fuel cell and ev research long before 2008.

 

Didn't Ford just win truck of the year with the newly developed Lincoln Navigator?

I think their look to the future while incorporating the past is a brilliant one.

bigkid posted:

On the other hand they may be ok, the EPA is talking about rolling back cafe or even getting rid of it,and congress may grant that. 

And Planet Earth takes another bullet.

Source: Detroit Free Press, Facebook Page

Gary: Rail-fan

How about using a concept from Henry Ford and price cars and trucks so Americians can afford them?

Dominic Mazoch posted:

How about using a concept from Henry Ford and price cars and trucks so Americians can afford them?

What does the price of vehicles have to do with the subject of this thread?

Nice someone attempted to save the clock, if they had left it there by now it would be missing. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out, in 10 years it will be interesting to see if this paid off, or if like more than a few such projects, turned into a white elephant. 

 

As far as the cost of cars/why the manufacturers are leaning on trucks, if anyone is interested ping me on my email on my profile. 

I just hope that maybe after all this that we get a 3RO NYC/MC H-10 Mikado.

Borden Tunnel posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

How about using a concept from Henry Ford and price cars and trucks so Americians can afford them?

What does the price of vehicles have to do with the subject of this thread?

Cause the price of toy trains Americans cannot afford as well?

J Daddy posted:

Borden Tunnel posted:

Dominic Mazoch posted:

How about using a concept from Henry Ford and price cars and trucks so Americians can afford them?

What does the price of vehicles have to do with the subject of this thread?

Cause the price of toy trains Americans cannot afford as well?

Last time I looked, Ford wasn't making toy trains and neither Lionel or MTH are buying the depot.

Rusty

If the implication is buying this building is why Ford's cars and trucks are so expensive, forget that idea. First of all, when it comes to cars and trucks (especially trucks and SUVs) they are expensive across the board. Secondly, Ford likely is not using cash to buy the building or restore it, they are likely going to use debt financing, potentially doing so using some sort of tax favored bond (municipal, state, some sort of state authority)  which has much lower interest rate on them (and obviously, given Detroit's precarious shape, I doubt they would be Detroit bonds, more than likely state or some sort of regional authority, if at all). When they built new stadiums here in NYC the team owners paid for them, but they were allowed to finance a significant portion using city/state bonding authority, which gave them a much lower rate and also allowed bondholders to get them with tax favored interest , depending on the bond and where the person buying it lives.  So that price tag isn't going to affect the price of a car or truck much, put it this way, whether Ford did this or not, the price would stay right where it is or go up *shrug*. 

 

 

OK guys....this thread has had quite a few alerts and has gotten off track quite a bit...even starting to get political.  I don't have time to surgically go through 3 pages and read as well as edit every post.  Any more alerts and the topic will be closed....

what is this alert thing you speak of?

does that mean there are tattlers like don't like a frank, adult discussion and have to alert the moderators to it, so it can be handled?

geez, what children.

PRR Man posted:

what is this alert thing you speak of?

does that mean there are tattlers like don't like a frank, adult discussion and have to alert the moderators to it, so it can be handled?

geez, what children.

Yep that about sums it up.

For the rest of the story click here.

Source: Detroit Free Press

Gary: Rai-fan

Awesome thread. Thanks for the updates Gary. Makes me want to buy a Ford.

The Continuing Saga of the Michigan Central Station

The owners of Detroit brewpub Traffic Jam & Snug are angling to open a new restaurant in the shadow of Michigan Central Station — and it’s inside a really old barn. Scott Lowell and Carolyn Howard are hoping to reassemble a 130-year-old West Michigan barn on a property at the corner of 14th and Dalzelle streets in Corktown and put a restaurant and events space inside it, the Detroit Free Press reports.

Lowell and Howard apparently hatched the pastoral project back in 2014 when they acquired the 1.5-acre property on the east side of the vacant train station for a mere $250,000. Today, thanks to the recent acquisition of the station by Ford Motor Company for a new Detroit campus that land is probably worth a whole lot more.

Details of the barn restaurant and events space tentatively dubbed Kith and Kin Kelly are still getting worked out, but the pair estimate that the reassembling and renovation will cost around $3 million. The pair also have some city hurdles to jump including getting a portion of the property rezoned for a restaurant business. Questions have also been raised about the barn’s juxtaposition against the architecture of Michigan Central Station.

Source: AP • Detroit Free Press & Eater Detroit Magazine • August 3, 2018

Gary: Rail-fan

The Continuing Saga of the Michigan Central Station

Update: September 18, 2018

To learn more: Click here.  /  Source: Detroit Free Press, Sept. 18, 2018

Gary: Rail-fan

“A Leap of Faith” Bill Ford Says,  September 19, 2018

As Ford Motor Company hashes out its plans to transform Michigan Central Station – an historic, long-disused train station in Detroit’s Corktown neighborhood – into the central hub of its new Detroit campus, the automaker admits that purchasing the asset wasn’t without risk.

“We’re in a war for talent,” Executive Chairman Bill Ford said at the Crain Communications Detroit Homecoming event last Wednesday, explaining why the automaker ponied up the cash for such an expensive property. The automaker has to compete with firms in prime locations around the country for the best, most qualified young talent. Having such an iconic piece of property serving as a workspace is seen as an important asset that could do the trick.

“It is a little bit of a leap of faith to look at it now and then say in four years this is going to be amazing, but actually, it is going to be amazing,” he said. “We should reinvent mobility here. Not in Silicon Valley.”

Click here: To learn more

Source ‘Ford Authority Magazine’ Sept. 19, 2018

Gary: Rail-fanning from the Motor City

Isn't ford looking for 350 Million in local, county, and state aid for this also?

Likely. But they hit us up for stadiums as well. This beats a lot of other things we could or have helped pay for, and Ford's is a pretty good company when it comes to community. It will do the area a world of good imo. It needs more than just "a remodel". Everything from traffic patterns to emergencies likely needs to be rethought as the area had changed a lot since it was built.

What does this have to do with the O Gauge Forum ?  We're talking about a real estate developmet only preipherally related to railroads.  It's all about the Michigan Central Railroad Office Building that was built above the station and has nothing to do with the station itself, except for railroad officials working close to where they could get on a train.

mlaughlinnyc posted:

What does this have to do with the O Gauge Forum ?  We're talking about a real estate developmet only preipherally related to railroads.  It's all about the Michigan Central Railroad Office Building that was built above the station and has nothing to do with the station itself, except for railroad officials working close to where they could get on a train.

That is why this topic is in the "Real Trains" section, where we talk about things like.... real trains, things relates to real trains (stations, old buildings, etc..)

I hope the voters of the area look very closely at helping Ford in this project.  The company has, from what I have read, about $ 15 BILLION in the bank.........

This is an amazing story. I was in Grand Central Station for the first time in years this summer and thought about how close that station came to being demolished. Preserving, rather than paving over, history can be inspirational. Well, at least the good parts of history. I really hope this helps in some small way the long-suffering city of Detroit as well.

I, for one, am thrilled that Ford is investing in the future of the 'Motor City.' They could have easily moved to NYC, or other regions. This is home for Ford. This building represents all the things that have gone wrong in the region over the last 7 decades. Traveling in the region via transit is nearly extinct. I rarely allow my imagination to explore what the future of Detroit might include, but somehow this project gives me great hope.

If the building really does get restored (by any means necessary) has the potential to re-invigorate the region in a major way.

The Michigan Central Station. The continuing sage, with a sidebar story. Gordie Howe International Bridge will open to traffic in late 2024

A rendering of the Gordie Howe International Bridge, a cable-stayed design with the longest main span in North America, at 853 meters (about 933 yards), and with towers rivaling the height of the Renaissance Center in Detroit. It was revealed in July 2018.

(Photo: Bridging North America, Bridging North America)

After years of guesses and ballpark estimates, we finally have firm schedule and cost estimates for the planned Gordie Howe International Bridge. After years of guesses and ballpark estimates, we finally have firm schedule and cost estimates for the planned Gordie Howe International Bridge.As announced Friday morning in Windsor, the bridge will cost $5.7 billion (Canadian), or about $4.4 billion in current U.S. dollars. Of that total, about two-thirds will pay to build the bridge, the inspection plazas in Windsor and Detroit, and the interchange with I-75 in southwest Detroit.

The other third of the total cost will pay for operating and maintaining the bridge for decades to come.The official construction schedule now predicts the bridge will open to traffic in late 2024 after a roughly six-year construction period.

Source: Detroit Free Press, Sept. 28, 2018

Background information.

The Moroun family's sold the The Michigan Central Station to the Ford Motor Company for 90 million dollars. It has been said they needed these funds to block the Gordie Howe Bridge. The Moroun family’s also owns the Ambassador Bridge, witch connects Detroit, Michigan, USA to Windsor, Ontario, Canada.

The Family’s called: Manuel Moroun, Detroit International Bridge Company. Ambassador Bridge. This company has been to several courts trying to block the Gordie Howe Bridge over the past several years.

August 10. 2018 Wayne County Circuit Court Chief Judge Robert Colombo Jr. advanced the effort to build the Gordie Howe International Bridge this past week when he dismissed attempts by the Moroun family's Detroit International Bridge Company to block seizure of Moroun-owned land in Detroit's Delray district.

Railroad Freight Train Traffic

The Michigan Central Railway Tunnel is a railroad tunnel under the Detroit River connecting Detroit, Michigan, in the United States with Windsor, Ontario, in Canada. The US entrance is south of Porter and Vermont streets near Rosa Parks Boulevard. The Railway Tunnel opened July 26, 1910 and it owned by: Canadian Pacific Railway.

Gary: Rail-fanning from the Motor City

It's overdue that they didn't just fold to them again. 

 The Ambassador would be laying in the water before their enterprise would have built new IMO. They had decades of time to do it themselves. IMO, I.e. they wanted the rights, but didn't want to reinvest in keeping it that way.  Just like the plans of the past for the Middle Central building, they dragged thier feet for over the top deals till things got dropped.... and were somewhat neglectful to use and maintain the facilities and community to their potential. Fords's track record is a little better to say the least.

  There will be a lot of ways across till the old bridge does finally retire. There is still the daytime automobile tunnel too.

  Keeping pilings out of the water has got to be saving tons of money; the current of the Detroit River is no joke. The first international crossing, 1800s Michigan Central RR from Grosse Isle to Stoney Island to Canada got washed out from ice flow the first winter it saw. It would have awesome to see that type of aquatic infrastructure work being done here again. 

  Michigan is a cool place for bridges. The most bascules, lots of lifts and swings, the Golden Gate's increadibly long twin structure the Mackinaw Bridge,

 The Ambassador of course, now Gordie's, and countless smaller ones really. A pretty diverse collection.

  The MC rail tunnel was first, before the car tunnel, and also used 3rd rail electric steeple cabs to shuttle the loads between Detroit and Ontario. Coal burning in the tunnel would have been a "little smokey" 

 

A special light show for the North American Auto Show at Michigan Central Depot

Detroit, Michigan

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0oYO30Ir_E

The Michigan Central Depot has a light show for the Auto Show in Detroit.

Gary: Rail-fanning from Detroit, my home town.

That was quite the magic show!

 

Oooh! Aaah!..... Do-it-again! Do-it-again!

Like CUT another great Central edifice hosting a fantastic modern light show.

CUT? .... Discontinue? .....CUTransit? ...Edit?

...Or a statement that it's "Photoshopped"?

CUT = Cleveland Union Terminal.

  

Let's take a closer look at the Michigan Central Depot • Light Show...........

Gary: Rail-fanning from Detroit • My Hometown 

That was a fantastic light show.

Amtrak may be going to Toronto, Canada via Michigan Depot 🇨🇦

Midwesterners may have a one-seat ride to Canada if Amtrak gets federal funding to add passenger service between Detroit and Toronto — a move that could take cars and buses off the roads and strengthen ties between the industrial Midwest and our neighbor to the north.

Amtrak floated its proposal to extend its 304-mile Wolverine Line into Ontario last Thursday during the Michigan Rail Conference at Michigan State University. The new line would give Michigan business leaders, commuters, and tourists another option to get to Toronto beyond driving four hours on Canadian highways.

“For many of our regional routes, our primary competition is the automobile,” Amtrak spokesman Marc Magliari told Streetsblog. “As anyone who has driven between here in Chicago and Toronto over the years including me knows, there has to be a better way than slogging across I-94 (and I-69) and then the 401 (or 402).”

The initiative, which does not yet have a price tag, would consist of the construction of a new facility to process passports at the Michigan-Canadian border and track upgrades on the Canadian side. Once the train crossed the border, it would run as a Via Rail Canada corridor line to Toronto, according to the plan.

Source Google News, AP & Streetsblog USA: https://usa.streetsblog.org/20...-detroit-to-toronto/

They are studying all the options at this time. The way we have to go now is to drive to Windsor, Ontario and catch the Canadian "VIA Rail Train" to Toronto. 

Gary

Let’s Go Rail-fanning • Michigan Central Station

In this video from my YouTube Channel we will be visiting the Michigan Central Station also known as Michigan Central Depot. 

Gary 🚂

If I owned Ford stock, I would question this project.  For that kind of money, F could build a brand new tech building plug and play for the digital world and maybe completely upgrade a car plant for the same amount of money.

And does it not get cold in the winter.  That building will cost a lot to heat.  A really good idea with a POTUS named Joe? And would tallent even think of going up there?

The tallent F needs can be found in places like the central I35 Corridor in TX.  A rocket man is building a car plant there.

Thank u, Gary!

Peter