Good Layout Flaw? Huh!

My whole layout is one giant flaw.........

Bob, my recollection is that if your layout is flawed, which I doubt, it is delightfully so. Arnold

Arnold: I'm not trying to be the boy that cried "wolf", but a voltage drop like that takes some pretty good resistance somewhere, and resistance in electricity generally makes heat-sometimes to the point of generating fire. It looks like that 022 turnout is the start of your problem. I'd be checking the center rails in that area for a sudden hot-spot before you have a bigger issue.

I appreciate that, D&H 65. There could be some extra heat generated at that switch, which I will check out, but I am not too concerned because that voltage drop has existed for over 25 years without causing any problems. Arnold

Prototype track-work is flawed....so mine is too.  

I took this pic on the old B&O nee BR&P Indiana (Pa) branch which is now a NS branch serving a power plant:

The use of telephoto for both pics accentuates the poor track alignment but it is real.

I know, I know. The conventional wisdom is that our [model] track-work must be flawless but every time I watch a PER train rock&roll over that bit of track it makes me remember all the poor branchlike track-work I've watched trains roll over.

It's different strokes for different folks, isn't it? 

Lew, I think your post is interesting and has merit. But isn't the defective track for real trains typically on sidings and rarely used trackage where trains would go slow?

In my experience in observing real trains and track, which is quite limited, high speed frequently used main lines have track that looks perfect.

Do you folks agree?

Here is another feature of my layout that is arguably a flaw, which I have chosen not to correct:

The ballast is way to big, not even close to being scale. But so are the rails, particularly the height of the rails, of the O Gauge tubular track. IMO, that combination makes my way to big pebbles (ground up asphalt) ballast work. At the very least, it mitigates against the ballast being considered too big. 

Please offer constructive criticism if you believe its warranted.

I will say, at the outset, that I would not use this ballast if I used scale size rails and track. Arnold

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Lew, I think your post is interesting and has merit. But isn't the defective track for real trains typically on sidings and rarely used trackage where trains would go slow?

In my experience in observing real trains and track, which is quite limited, high speed frequently used main lines have track that looks perfect.

Do you folks agree?

  While I would tend to agree with what you said, looking at some photos of track work throughout the country on the internet sometimes says otherwise. Take for instance train derailments that are sometimes because of missed defects in track work. 

 On my own track there is one area where my wife keeps stepping on with my floor layout. I have Fastrack and while it withstands a certain amount of stepping on it ok, over time it has made a small section of the track slightly "wavy".  For the most part this defect in the track does not seem to make a noticeable change in train operation though .

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

Lew, I think your post is interesting and has merit. But isn't the defective track for real trains typically on sidings and rarely used trackage where trains would go slow?

In my experience in observing real trains and track, which is quite limited, high speed frequently used main lines have track that looks perfect.

Do you folks agree?

Yes, of course mainline track has to have very good alignment. Maybe one of the "real"  railroaders here will chime in with a short summary of FRA track specs.

As a general statement, track condition determines the FRA allowable speed on that track. IIRC with deteriorating condition it gets down to 5mph and then finally the track is embargoed. I know a bunch of specs go into the determination, among them the condition of the ties, what % of ties are in what state of health, how many spikes are missing, whether spikes are fully driven, the profile of the railhead, missing/loose track joint bolts, track gauge as well as the actual alignment of the rails.

I have walked a lot of "bumpy" branchline track, especially if it is jointed rail having "low joints and high centers". Not uncommon (on slow-speed track) to see a 2" gap between the underside of the rail and the tie-plate for a couple ties at the rail joint. I find it a bit disconcerting to stand beside such a rail joint when a train passes over it and watch the weight of the wheels flexing the rail down to make contact with the tie plate and then springing back up when that wheel has passed.

IMO, it is best for all track for real trains to be in optimum condition for obvious reasons; on the other hand, little defects in track for a model railroad can add to its charm and realism, especially on a siding, branch line or other place that is not a main line. Arnold

Arnold,

Your video illustrates the perfect track flaw... The gates go down, the train pauses and then proceeds. Can't get any better than that...

MELGAR

Speaking of a person stepping repeatedly on Lionel FasTrack, reminds me of the famous photo of Otto the elephant at a German zoo stepping on LGB track with NO damage! Reports of the LGB train also in the photo moving the elephant aside are unconfirmed! LOL!

MELGAR posted:

Arnold,

Your video illustrates the perfect track flaw... The gates go down, the train pauses and then proceeds. Can't get any better than that...

MELGAR

I never thought of it that way. Is it a flaw? Would the train typically be going at high speed through town, or would it slow down going through town, proceeding with caution. The latter is what I thought most likely. Arnold

After 11 years the area on my layout in front of the control panel sagged, probably from not using top grade 1X4s. You can see it in the attached video. It does look kinda cool at track level though. It hasn't caused any structural problems, so I've left it alone. 

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

A layout flaw can be a good thing you may want to keep.

The example I gave on the other thread is a voltage drop in a section of my layout where the train runs through town. Of course, the voltage drop slows the train down as crossing gates drop and the train slows down:

 

Safety first, we need to protect all those little people in that town, and slow the train down when it's running through town.

Thank God for the flaw! LOL!

You might want to reconsider thanking anyone for that flaw.  The voltage drop means some track or wiring junction is getting hot.  As time goes on, that could actually cause bigger problems or even a fire.  Not exactly something to be thanking God for!

Arnold D. Cribari posted:

MELGAR posted:

Arnold,

Your video illustrates the perfect track flaw... The gates go down, the train pauses and then proceeds. Can't get any better than that...

MELGAR

I never thought of it that way. Is it a flaw? Would the train typically be going at high speed through town, or would it slow down going through town, proceeding with caution. The latter is what I thought most likely. Arnold

On an S-curve like that, it would be creeping through the crossing...

MELGAR

Both D&H 65 and GunrunnerJohn believe that my voltage drop could be dangerous, and could even cause a fire. Thank you for expressing your thoughts and concern.

I will see if that switch and track nearby feel hot when I touch it, and I will otherwise try to diagnose the problem and report back anything I may discover when investigating this.

I have insulated track in that area to activate 2 pairs of crossing gates that are independently powered, and do not draw power from the track, so I doubt if the crossing gates are the cause of the voltage drop.

I have extra 022 switches, so I could replace that switch to see if that would eliminate the voltage drop. That is a significant project because of the ballasted track and because I have to be like a contortionist to get back there, in the 6 inch space between the edge of the plywood table and the wall.

Please share any further thoughts you may have about the voltage drop, which has existed for 25 years, only causing trains to slow down as they go through town. Arnold

An easy non invasive first step is to run your train around and check that area with a voltage meter. Also check other points on the layout for reference.

If the voltage checks out o.k. and there is no heat present. Is there some other anomaly with your layout?

Possibly a slight incline in that area when combined with the curves causes that pulmor powered Loco to slow?

It could be a combination of load , curves, and pulmor power with no cruise.

RickO, that is a great idea but, unfortunately, I don't have a voltage meter.

I just dlturned on the power to that track, and contorted myself to get back there and put my fingers on the rails of that O22 switch and track nearby. I could not feel any heat on the rails or anything else, heard no noise of any kind, saw no sparks, etc. I sensed nothing out of the ordinary when I did that.

The thought occurred to me to repeat the same thing while running a slow moving locomotive. So, I ran my Postwar #41 US Army switcher, put it on the track in the laundry room far away from that switch, and set the power at 14 volts, and started the engine. Then, I quickly crawled under the train table near that switch and felt the rails like I did before, as the engine approached and ran through the switch. 

Same result: I felt, heard and saw absolutely nothing out of the ordinary. Arnold